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  1. #61
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    Re: The Steele Dossier

    Quote Originally Posted by cowboy
    Even if he had known (or guessed) you've still offered no support that a political agenda altered the production of the dossier.
    You ignoring support is not me failing to provide support. That you don't like it, or don't agree with it, is not me failing to offer support.
    The claim that the dossier was politically motivated has been supported.

    To be clear I am not claiming that because it is politically motivated it is therefore false. Which is what you seem to be implying.
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  2. #62
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    Re: The Steele Dossier

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    You ignoring support is not me failing to provide support. That you don't like it, or don't agree with it, is not me failing to offer support.
    The claim that the dossier was politically motivated has been supported.

    To be clear I am not claiming that because it is politically motivated it is therefore false. Which is what you seem to be implying.
    You've called it garbage and right wing media is determined to discredit it, so, yes, that has been your claim. Just like Trump calling it the "fake dossier":


    "Donald J. Trump

    @realDonaldTrump
    Never seen such Republican ANGER & UNITY as I have concerning the lack of investigation on Clinton made Fake Dossier (now $12,000,000?),....

    9:53 AM - Oct 29, 2017"

    That you clarified is good and is appreciated.

    But just to be even more clear, no support has been given as to Mr. Steele's intent towards his work on creating the reports that make up the dossier as being political in any way.
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  3. #63
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    Re: The Steele Dossier

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    You ignoring support is not me failing to provide support. That you don't like it, or don't agree with it, is not me failing to offer support.
    The claim that the dossier was politically motivated has been supported.

    To be clear I am not claiming that because it is politically motivated it is therefore false. Which is what you seem to be implying.
    While the dossier was politically motivated, that doesn't [necessarily] mean that Fusion GPS or Steele were politically motivated to take on the contract. To them, this is business. You get a contract, fulfill the contract, and get paid.

    Steele can be neutral / unbiased while doing his job. Are you saying that's not possible? Realize that it was the conservative Washington Free Beacon that first contracted with Fusion GPS to get dirt on Trump (and other Republican candidates). Then, when they saw Trump was going to be nominated the Washington Free Beacon stopped the contract. Fusion GPS, seeing a business opportunity to capitalize on work that's already been done, shopped around for someone to take up the contract and found the DNC. The idea that Fusion GPS would accept conservative money for the initial contract suggests that they are business motivated, not politically motivated.
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  4. #64
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    Re: The Steele Dossier

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    You've called it garbage and right wing media is determined to discredit it, so, yes, that has been your claim. Just like Trump calling it the "fake dossier":
    Only I said it was a valid basis for an investigation..
    While I maintain that it is a garbage reason for a warrant, it is still hear say and gossip after all.

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    That you clarified is good and is appreciated.

    But just to be even more clear, no support has been given as to Mr. Steele's intent towards his work on creating the reports that make up the dossier as being political in any way.
    I'm not certain I understand the distinction you are making from the support offered.
    He was motivated to find political dirt. Or dirt on a political figure.

    -----------
    Quote Originally Posted by SNACK
    While the dossier was politically motivated, that doesn't [necessarily] mean that Fusion GPS or Steele were politically motivated to take on the contract. To them, this is business. You get a contract, fulfill the contract, and get paid.
    Yea, the business of finding political dirt.
    The inquirer has a business as well, to peddle gossip. That is all Steel did was compile the gossip around a given political figure.

    Quote Originally Posted by SNACK
    Steele can be neutral / unbiased while doing his job.
    so "neutral" hear means what? Neutral between Republicans and dems? Sure, he can be a free agent digging up dirt and political gossip on any party.
    Neutral in the same way the FBI is supposed to be? Not a chance. You don't pay companies millions of dollars to find NOTHING. It's not like he was a PI following a cheating spouse, who came to us with video evidence.
    All he brought was a laundry list of various gossip tails and rumors being spread about political figures.

    Quote Originally Posted by SNACK
    Then, when they saw Trump was going to be nominated the Washington Free Beacon stopped the contract. Fusion GPS, seeing a business opportunity to capitalize on work that's already been done, shopped around for someone to take up the contract and found the DNC. The idea that Fusion GPS would accept conservative money for the initial contract suggests that they are business motivated, not politically motivated.
    No it does not. It is the same motivation just a different agent paying for it. Namely political dirt on a political opponent.
    I'm confused as to why it doesn't seem crystal clear, it happens every election cycle. It's called "opposition research". It doesn't suddenly change the nature of the game being played just because the file goes from one party to the other. You can't be so naive as to think this is all an "unbiased" business model?
    Do you think that every other presidential candidate had hired less qualified investigators? This is all the same stuff with widely varying degrees of credibility on the end product, and this is not a better product so far.
    Just like the countless others that came before it, that flood the news every election cycle... it's gossip until we have real evidence. If it were a quality report, it would have contained quality evidence, and you have to agree that if steel had found or recorded something damaging it would have come out during the election. That is what they were all aiming for. Like a him meeting loads of naked prostitutes in some back ally motel, or one of them "home" porn tapes stolen by a "concerned citizen" house keeper. I don't see how it is reasonable to assume credibility on this kind of stuff.
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  5. #65
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    Re: The Steele Dossier

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Like no one is saying the steel Dossier has been verified. Because that would be a huge story. Like CNN would be running Trump porn if it had the tape.
    People may say the FBI trusted it.. but that is very different, and not nearly as strong a claim.

    Anyway time will tell. But I suspect like most politically motivated gossip pieces, nothing real will come of it. While political opponents may really wish on a shooting star that there is some sex tape of Russian prostitutes peeing on Trump... or the other way around, it is probably just that.. wishful thinking.
    But hey. the dems get a win as long as we can keep gossip about their political opponents in the news. .. not like they have to hold a gun to anyones head in the media to make a mountain out of a mole hill and talk every night about how they really wish there were some substance to this.. I mean there could be, and we are just holding our breath here at CNN until the tape surfaces.. any minute now.
    Well, this thread is saying it, so someone is. But your post rather highlights some of the problems with the topic.

    1. Its not an all or nothing game. The Steel Dossier is a bunch of memos, each makes a wide range of specific claims and reports. So its entirely possible that one fact turns out accurate and another doesn't. Certainly, some of the elements from the Dossier are verified and some are not. We know Page did go on the trip it said he did. We don't know exactly what the content was of his meetings. I've little doubt that is true though much of the document. Some can eaisly be verified, some not. And there are articles out there that discuss some of the claims and which are proven out and which are not.

    But the discussion tends to be "is it verified or not?" Which is such a useless oversimplification as to be meaningless? If we want to talk about its verification, we should talk about individual claims.

    2. The pee tape thing is widely mis-labled and stands in as some kind of proxy. So if we can't prove the pee-tape then everything must be false in the Dosser. It is not some lynch pin upon which everything rests. Its just one story in a document that is a collection of related naratives. And it is not described as anyone peeing on Trump. It is described as Trump hiring prostitutes to pee on the bed that the Obama's slept in. Not so much a sexual kink as an act of petty desecration. But folks don't bother to actually read the thing, so you get a game of telephone about it.
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  6. #66
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    Re: The Steele Dossier

    Quote Originally Posted by sig
    Well, this thread is saying it, so someone is. But your post rather highlights some of the problems with the topic.
    I am responding to the claim that it is being shown to be "highly accurate". So my exchange is a response to the lack of any support of that claim.. meaning it is relegated to gossip at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    1. Its not an all or nothing game. The Steel Dossier is a bunch of memos, each makes a wide range of specific claims and reports. So its entirely possible that one fact turns out accurate and another doesn't. Certainly, some of the elements from the Dossier are verified and some are not. We know Page did go on the trip it said he did. We don't know exactly what the content was of his meetings. I've little doubt that is true though much of the document. Some can easily be verified, some not. And there are articles out there that discuss some of the claims and which are proven out and which are not.

    But the discussion tends to be "is it verified or not?" Which is such a useless oversimplification as to be meaningless? If we want to talk about its verification, we should talk about individual claims.
    So far the document itself is a lot of hear say about things of varying degrees of embarrassing, and criminal. Too much is being made of it IMO, because it isn't worthy of the current level of attention. Many want to make it into something more serious or substantial than gossip. I dig that it is not an all or nothing prospect.
    But the nature of Tabloid gossip is to take truths "Bob went to the super market" and exaggerate for desired effect "Bob went to the super market, where he met his Alien love child". That is simply the nature of gossip. If you ask around you will find people who will "say" all sorts of things especially about political figures, and the super wealthy.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    2. The pee tape thing is widely mis-labled and stands in as some kind of proxy. So if we can't prove the pee-tape then everything must be false in the Dosser. It is not some lynch pin upon which everything rests. Its just one story in a document that is a collection of related naratives. And it is not described as anyone peeing on Trump. It is described as Trump hiring prostitutes to pee on the bed that the Obama's slept in. Not so much a sexual kink as an act of petty desecration. But folks don't bother to actually read the thing, so you get a game of telephone about it.
    I just use it as an example of how ridiculous hear say is. Sure it COULD be true.. but so could the cover of any tabloid news paper. People are just becoming to stupid to know what things they should throw out of their mind until serious evidence is presented.
    No one seems to be able to offer any serious evidence... so all we have is gossip and a bunch of people talking about it like it is more than just that.

    The first question I have, and the only relevant one at this point IMO is how much was this gossip used to sway courts to issue a warrant.. because that is just poor law application IMO. Finding that answer will answer the second question, which is .. how much is true and legally relevant in the dossier.

    ---
    Finally, the idea that an investigator is collecting gossip and stories that are ultimately not criminal in anyway but only highly embarrassing, just shows that this is nothing more than political dirt mining effort.
    In other words, if it is ultimately legal... why should we care?
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  7. #67
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    Re: The Steele Dossier

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Only I said it was a valid basis for an investigation..
    While I maintain that it is a garbage reason for a warrant, it is still hear say and gossip after all.
    That may be your opinion, but it bears no resemblance to the law where hearsay is admissible...as in the issuing of warrants.

    ---------- Post added at 09:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:47 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    He was motivated to find political dirt. Or dirt on a political figure.
    I'll tentatively accept the term "dirt". What it was to be used for, sure, it may have been political. Like I said and I believe the FBI stated in the warrant application, Steele may have guessed the intended use.

    That does not mean, and is still unsupported, that Steele had any personal political favor or disfavor in writing up the reports that went into the dossier. There's no reason to believe that he lied or that the dossier is "fake" or exaggerated. Simply, there's no reason to believe he didn't do a good job.

    Combined with his credibility and the (I would assume) sworn testimony of the FBI officers (also admissible for a warrant) that the dossier's sources were verified (maybe not the content) make it a valuable document.

    Certainly not "fake" or garbage.

    ---------- Post added at 09:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:05 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post

    Neutral in the same way the FBI is supposed to be? Not a chance.
    You're a moderator, please stop making this unsupported claim about Steele.
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  8. #68
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    Re: The Steele Dossier

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    That may be your opinion, but it bears no resemblance to the law where hearsay is admissible...as in the issuing of warrants.
    I would like to see support for that. It would change my opinion of the warrant issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    That does not mean, and is still unsupported, that Steele had any personal political favor or disfavor in writing up the reports that went into the dossier. There's no reason to believe that he lied or that the dossier is "fake" or exaggerated. Simply, there's no reason to believe he didn't do a good job.
    Spreading Gossip doesn't require one to lie.
    "I heard Betty say she, was talking to bobby, and bobby told her that his mom heard from Mr Thomson down the street that his neighbor's son is smoking pot every night.
    Judge... man here is a warrent, you gotta go check that out! "

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    Combined with his credibility and the (I would assume) sworn testimony of the FBI officers (also admissible for a warrant) that the dossier's sources were verified (maybe not the content) make it a valuable document.

    Certainly not "fake" or garbage.
    Gossip is garbage. Moving on.

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    You're a moderator, please stop making this unsupported claim about Steele.
    Support has been offered. He is in the business of collecting political dirt. He is tainted by his profession. Or rather, due to the nature of his profession, and the low quality of "evidence" he brings to the table, we should consider it of low quality.

    Further, this is all a response to the unsupported claim that the document has been show to be highly accurate.
    Failing that, it is gossip garbage, plain and simple, the quality of the gossiper does not change that fact.
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  9. #69
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    Re: The Steele Dossier

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post

    No it does not. It is the same motivation just a different agent paying for it. Namely political dirt on a political opponent.
    I'm confused as to why it doesn't seem crystal clear, it happens every election cycle. It's called "opposition research". It doesn't suddenly change the nature of the game being played just because the file goes from one party to the other. You can't be so naive as to think this is all an "unbiased" business model?
    Do you think that every other presidential candidate had hired less qualified investigators? This is all the same stuff with widely varying degrees of credibility on the end product, and this is not a better product so far.
    Just like the countless others that came before it, that flood the news every election cycle... it's gossip until we have real evidence. If it were a quality report, it would have contained quality evidence, and you have to agree that if steel had found or recorded something damaging it would have come out during the election. That is what they were all aiming for. Like a him meeting loads of naked prostitutes in some back ally motel, or one of them "home" porn tapes stolen by a "concerned citizen" house keeper. I don't see how it is reasonable to assume credibility on this kind of stuff.
    Fusion GPS is in the business of making money. It's clients are politically motivated. You haven't shown any support to say that they themselves quest for a political outcome. Their business is based on what the client wants, just like any other business. Their opposition research is a their product. They, as I have shown, don't care who's paying. And they don't care of the political implications or outcome of their research. Again, their clients do. But they don't. My guess is that Fusion GPS will do opposition research on any one you contract them to. It is their business model. It's how they make money.

    I think you have a very low threshold for the definition of gossip. But call it what you want. I would call it speculation. To be honest, we simply don't have all the facts. We don't know what was verified by the FBI and what was simply trusted information because it came from a particular source. Much of the application was redacted so it's really hard to tell. As far as your claim that if Steele found something like a recording, it would have come out - it's simply not provable. That's speculation. Cohen has been sitting on a hundred tapes. The tape of Trump discussing how he interacts with a particular woman didn't come out until late in the election cycle. Same with tapes of Obama (guns and Bibles) and Romey (47%).

    ---------- Post added at 11:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:05 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I would like to see support for that. It would change my opinion of the warrant issue.
    Probable cause may be demonstrated by live, sworn testimony or by affidavit. More importantly, an affidavit based on hearsay (which could not be used as evidence in a criminal trial) can be used as the basis for issuing a search warrant, so long as the circumstances in their totality establish probable cause. See Illinois v. Gates, 462 U.S. 213 (1983).

    https://lawshelf.com/courseware/entry/probable-cause
    I'm not a lawyer, but it would appear that hearsay can be legally used to issue a warrant. One site I read, though, said that the hearsay cannot be anonymous.
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  11. #70
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    Re: The Steele Dossier

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Finally, the idea that an investigator is collecting gossip and stories that are ultimately not criminal in anyway but only highly embarrassing, just shows that this is nothing more than political dirt mining effort.
    In other words, if it is ultimately legal... why should we care?
    I'm not sure how much you have read about spycraft. One of the main things spys do is to get information and influence. They do that through a huge range of means. One of them is corrupting public officials. The allegations in the Dossier are nearly all about Russian intelignece efforts to manipulate or exploit US officials in the Trump campaign.

    The "legality" of spying is that it is generally illegal if you do it knowingly. And even if you don't, the spies themselves are breaking US laws. So, the general character of what is described in the dossier is not legal activity. It is the work of spies. If page was working with spies, or acting as a spy, then he was indeed doing something illegal.
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  12. #71
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    Re: The Steele Dossier

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I would like to see support for that. It would change my opinion of the warrant issue.
    This was discussed earlier and not rebutted. Thank you Sig for the support.

    ---------- Post added at 02:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:30 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post

    Spreading Gossip doesn't require one to lie.
    "I heard Betty say she, was talking to bobby, and bobby told her that his mom heard from Mr Thomson down the street that his neighbor's son is smoking pot every night.
    Judge... man here is a warrent, you gotta go check that out! "
    Exactly, Johnny told Jeanie that he was going to shoot up the school tomorrow. Jeanie told her mom who called the police. Should the police just hang up because it is just "gossip"?

    ---------- Post added at 02:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:46 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Gossip is garbage. Moving on.
    Already rebutted and supported by Sig that it isn't, necessarily. It may be.

    ---------- Post added at 02:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:49 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    ---
    Finally, the idea that an investigator is collecting gossip and stories that are ultimately not criminal in anyway but only highly embarrassing, just shows that this is nothing more than political dirt mining effort.
    In other words, if it is ultimately legal... why should we care?
    Because we are talking about a person in a high security position who may be swayed by blackmail for something that might not be illegal.

    Indeed, I could care less about Trump's sexual appetites. The dossier says he made ample use of prostitutes while in Russia. That doesn't mean he was driving around picking up tunnel bunnies. He probably had massages at his hotel that may or may not have included happy endings, for instance. Again, I could care less it's your party that is the moral police. Why would I care about something I do myself? Good for him, I say.

    But politicans don't like anything negative being said about them so, again, there is the potential for blackmail, compromised security, and bad or unclear judgement in serious matters.

    ---------- Post added at 03:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:57 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post

    Further, this is all a response to the unsupported claim that the document has been show to be highly accurate.
    Failing that, it is gossip garbage, plain and simple, the quality of the gossiper does not change that fact.
    That was how Buzzfeed categorized it "rapidly being revealed to be highly accurate" or something like that.

    So what do we have so far:

    Putin ordering meddling in the election - confirmed by our intelligence agencies, no?
    Said meddling to benefit Trump - same, no?
    Carter Page meetings in moscow that he initially denied
    Cohen's trip to Prague that he strenuously denied "“Bad reporting, bad information and bad story,” Cohen wrote on Twitter, with a link to the news agency’s report. “No matter how many times or ways they write it, I have never been to Prague. I was in LA with my son. Proven!”"
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  13. #72
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    Re: The Steele Dossier

    @ sig. I wasn't talking about the spying to get the info in the dossier. I am talking about what the dossier is talking about. In other words, if a claim about Trump is ultimately a legal action by Trump then it only serves to embarrass. Which has limited application.
    There is of course the question of reliability of Russian informants.
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  14. #73
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    Re: The Steele Dossier

    - in regards to hear say as basis for a warrant. The kind of hear say sited is Bob tells police that he heard so and so say x. It is not clear to me that is what happened here. Further there is supposed to be more than just that. Also, source of hear say can't be anonnimouse. Which again I am not clear on in this case.

    @ snack, in regards to me having a low standard for gossip. No dude.. gossip is hear say, and the papers are clearly that.
    @ cowboy in regards to ridiculous school shooting example. I already said and made clear that I think it is and does warrant an investigation. Do I want police searching homes besed on gossip alone? No. I want them doing an investigation and finding reasonable cause.. which is what the law requires.
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    Re: The Steele Dossier

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    @ sig. I wasn't talking about the spying to get the info in the dossier. I am talking about what the dossier is talking about. In other words, if a claim about Trump is ultimately a legal action by Trump then it only serves to embarrass. Which has limited application.
    There is of course the question of reliability of Russian informants.
    Have you actually read the Steele Dossier? Pretty much everything alleged in there is espianage of one kind or another. I've read most of it, what they are talking about in there is generally illegal activity.
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    Re: The Steele Dossier

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    - in regards to hear say as basis for a warrant. The kind of hear say sited is Bob tells police that he heard so and so say x. It is not clear to me that is what happened here. Further there is supposed to be more than just that. Also, source of hear say can't be anonnimouse. Which again I am not clear on in this case.
    A source of hearsay can be anonymous. For example, some calls into a police tip line without identifying themselves and says there are drug being distributed at a location. That could not be used as a sole basis for a warrant.

    @ snack, in regards to me having a low standard for gossip. No dude.. gossip is hear say, and the papers are clearly that.
    Hearsay is a legal term of which can be used to obtain a warrant. Gossip is not a legal term (as far as I know) and really adds nothing to the discussion of whether the dossier could be used to issue a warrant.

    Below is the first entry in the dossier.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dossier
    COMPANY INTELLIGENCE REPORT 2016/080
    US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION: REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE DONALD TRUMP’S ACTIVITIES IN RUSSIA AND COMPROMISING RELATIONSHIP WITH THE KREMLIN

    Summary
    -Russian regime has been cultivating, supporting and assisting TRUMP for at least 5 years. Aim, endorsed by PUTIN, has been to encourage splits and divisions in western alliance

    -So far TRUMP has declined various sweetener real estate business deals offered him in Russia in order to further the Kremlin’s cultivation of him. However he and his inner circle have accepted a regular flow of intelligence from the Kremlin, including on his Democratic and other political rivals

    -Former top Russian intelligence officer claims FSB has compromised TRUMP through his activities in Moscow sufficiently to be able to blackmail him. According to several knowledgeable sources, his conduct in Moscow has included [REDACTED BY THE MOSCOW PROJECT] arranged/ monitored by the FSB

    -A dossier of compromising material on Hillary CLINTON has been collated by the Russian Intelligence Services over many years and mainly comprises bugged conversations she had on various visits to Russia and intercepted phone calls rather than any embarrassing conduct. The dossier is controlled by Kremlin spokesman, PESKOV, directly on PUTIN’s orders. However it has not as yet been distributed abroad, including to TRUMP. Russian intentions for its deployment still unclear

    Detail
    1. Speaking to a trusted compatriot in June 2016 sources A and B, a senior Russian Foreign Ministry figure and a former top level Russian intelligence officer still active inside the Kremlin respectively, the Russian authorities had been cultivating and supporting US Republican presidential candidate, Donald TRUMP for at least 5 years. Source B asserted that the TRUMP operation was both supported and directed by Russian President Vladimir PUTIN. Its aim was to sow discord and disunity both within the US itself, but more especially within the Transatlantic alliance which was viewed as inimical to Russia’s interests. Source C, a senior Russian financial official said the Trump operation should be seen in terms of PUTIN’s desire to return to Nineteenth Century ‘Great Power’ politics anchored upon countries’ interests rather than the ideals-based international order established after World War Two. S/he had overheard PUTIN talking in this way to close associates on several occasions.

    2. In terms of specifics, Source A confided that the Kremlin had been feeding TRUMP and his team valuable intelligence on his opponents, including Democratic presidential candidate Hillary CLINTON, for several years (see more below). This was confirmed by Source D, a close associate of TRUMP who had organized and managed his recent trips to Moscow, and who reported, also in June 2016, that this Russian intelligence had been “very helpful”. The Kremlin’s cultivation operation on TRUMP also had comprised offering him various lucrative real estate development business deals in Russia, especially in relation to the ongoing 2018 World Cup soccer tournament, However, so far, for reasons unknown, TRUMP had not taken up any of these.

    3. However, there were other aspects to TRUMP’s engagement with the Russian authorities. One which had borne fruit for them was to exploit TRUMP’s personal obsessions and [REDACTED BY THE MOSCOW PROJECT] in order to obtain suitable ‘kompromat’ (compromising material) on him. According to Source D, where s/he had been present, TRUMP’S [REDACTED BY THE MOSCOW PROJECT] conduct in Moscow included hiring the presidential suite of the Ritz Carlton Hotel, where he knew President and Mrs OBAMA (whom he hated) had stayed on one of their official trips to Russia, and [REDACTED BY THE MOSCOW PROJECT]. The hotel was known to be under FSB control with microphones and concealed cameras in all the main rooms to record anything they wanted to.

    4. The Moscow Ritz Carlton episode involving TRUMP reported above was confirmed by Source E, [REDACTED BY BUZZFEED NEWS], who said that s/he and several of the staff were aware of it at the time and subsequently. S/he believed it had happened in 2013. Source E provided an introduction for a company ethnic Russian operative to Source F, a female staffer at the hotel when TRUMP had stayed there, who also confirmed the story. Speaking separately in June 2016, Source B (the former top level Russian intelligence officer) asserted that TRUMP’s unorthodox behavior in Russia over the years had provided the authorities there with enough embarrassing material on the now Republican presidential candidate to be able to blackmail him if they so wished.

    5. Asked about the Kremlin’s reported intelligence feed to TRUMP over recent years and rumours about a Russian dossier of ‘kornpromat’ on Hillary CLINTON (being circulated), Source B confirmed the file’s existence. S/he confided in a trusted compatriot that it had been collated by Department K of the FSB for many years, dating back to her husband Bill’s presidency, and comprised mainly eavesdropped conversations of various sorts rather than details/evidence of unorthodox or embarrassing behavior. Some of the conversations were from bugged comments CLINTON had made on her various trips to Russia and focused on things she had said which contradicted her current positions on various issues. Others were most probably from phone intercepts.

    6. Continuing on this theme, Source G, a senior Kremlin official, confided that the CLINTON dossier was controlled exclusively by Chief Kremlin spokesman, Dmitriy PESKOV, who was responsible for compiling/handling it on the explicit instructions of PUTIN The dossier however had not as yet been made available abroad, including to TRUMP or his campaign team. At present it was unclear what PUTIN’s intentions were in this regard.

    20 June 2016
    As you can see, this is very detailed information - the work of a professional who spies for a living. Steele detailed who he talked to, the information they yielded, and when he talked to them.

    https://themoscowproject.org/dossier/
    Only what can happen does happen. ~Watchmen
    When the Standard is defined you will know how right or wrong you are.
    electricShares - a work in progress

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  18. #76
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    Re: The Steele Dossier

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    @ cowboy in regards to ridiculous school shooting example. I already said and made clear that I think it is and does warrant an investigation. Do I want police searching homes besed on gossip alone? No. I want them doing an investigation and finding reasonable cause.. which is what the law requires.
    Do you mean probable cause?
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  19. #77
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    Re: The Steele Dossier

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    @ sig. I wasn't talking about the spying to get the info in the dossier. I am talking about what the dossier is talking about. In other words, if a claim about Trump is ultimately a legal action by Trump then it only serves to embarrass. Which has limited application.
    There is of course the question of reliability of Russian informants.
    Yes, I know, so am I. Most of the content of the Dossier is about espionage activities by the Russian state and the people in the Trump campaign they are allegedly working with to enable that espionage. for example. The "pee-tape" is mentioned not to indict Trump as a pervert, it is in there because it claims the Russian Government could use that tape, which they allegedly created by spying on him, to manipulate Donald Trump in political matters. That is about spying and espianage. So is everything else in there.

    Read it for yourself
    https://www.documentcloud.org/docume...legations.html

    Trump is mentioned a lot, but in the report, Russian agents are the active parties doing the deeds that it lays out.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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  21. #78
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    Re: The Steele Dossier

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    Yes, I know, so am I. Most of the content of the Dossier is about espionage activities by the Russian state and the people in the Trump campaign they are allegedly working with to enable that espionage. for example. The "pee-tape" is mentioned not to indict Trump as a pervert, it is in there because it claims the Russian Government could use that tape, which they allegedly created by spying on him, to manipulate Donald Trump in political matters. That is about spying and espianage. So is everything else in there.
    I don't think this makes much sense given what you were responding too.

    Quote Originally Posted by MT
    Finally, the idea that an investigator is collecting gossip and stories that are ultimately not criminal in anyway but only highly embarrassing, just shows that this is nothing more than political dirt mining effort.
    In other words, if it is ultimately legal... why should we care?
    The point is, the Dossier is an attempt to collect dirt on Trump, but contains things that are not a crime by trump.
    So why should we care?
    If the best answer is, because X event could be used as leverage against him, It still remains to be seen that the event actually occurred. ..so why should we care?
    To serve man.

  22. #79
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    Re: The Steele Dossier

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I don't think this makes much sense given what you were responding too.



    The point is, the Dossier is an attempt to collect dirt on Trump, but contains things that are not a crime by trump.
    So why should we care?
    If the best answer is, because X event could be used as leverage against him, It still remains to be seen that the event actually occurred. ..so why should we care?
    You seemed to be focused on a very small aspect of the dossier. Out of a 35 page document, the specific instance pointing out that the Ritz-Carlton in Russia is likely bugged and anything that happened there is likely recorded amounts to a paragraph. Any improprieties committed by Trump during his stay there could be used as leverage for Russia to get they want. I'm not saying that there is a tape, or that Trump did anything wrong. But the possibility is there and should not be ignored.

    But the bulk of the dossier isn't about Trump at all. It's about how his campaign staff: Page, Manafort, and Cohen interacted with the Russian government.
    Only what can happen does happen. ~Watchmen
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    Re: The Steele Dossier

    @ snack, no not focused on it. Just making my point about the nature of the document. Further, YOU may not be saying it.. but the dossier does make the accusation. It isn't simply noting that it was bugged, it is propoganda gossip about what went on there. Which speaks to the mud slinging nature of the document and those who funded it.
    To serve man.

 

 
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