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  1. #21
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    Re: Republicans Refuse to Defend Us Against Foreign Attacks

    White House blocks bill that would protect elections

    "As it currently stands, the legislation would grant every state’s top election official security clearance to receive threat information. It would also formalize the practice of information-sharing between the federal government—in particular, the Department of Homeland Security—and states regarding threats to electoral infrastructure. A technical advisory board would establish best practices related to election cybersecurity. Perhaps most significantly, the law would mandate that every state conduct a statistically significant audit following a federal election. It would also incentivize the purchase of voting machines that leave a paper record of votes cast, as opposed to some all-electronic models that do not. This would signify a marked shift away from all-electronic voting, which was encouraged with the passage of the Help Americans Vote Act in 2002."
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  2. #22
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    Re: Republicans Refuse to Defend Us Against Foreign Attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    For political gain, no less:

    "The Russian intelligence agency behind the 2016 election cyberattacks targeted Sen. Claire McCaskill as she began her 2018 re-election campaign in earnest, a Daily Beast forensic analysis reveals. That makes the Missouri Democrat the first identified target of the Kremlin’s 2018 election interference.

    In August 2017, around the time of the hack attempt, Trump traveled to Missouri and chided McCaskill, telling the crowd to “vote her out of office.” Just this last week, however, Trump said, on Twitter, that he feared Russians would intervene in the 2018 midterm elections on behalf of Democrats."

    _____


    Earlier this week I was listening to talk radio (right wing dominated talk radio that is) and was surprised to hear that the presenter was glad then Secretary of State Clinton was hacked. He was something of a Libertarian and I wish I had listened long enough to get his name, but I believe I've heard this sentiment before. Never mind there wasn't anything in her emails but don't let the facts get in your way, right?
    So what have the "Russian cyberattacks" amounted to?
    IOW, what have they actually done, in their cyberattacks to "sway the elections"?

    I hear a lot of complaints about the Russians trying to sway the election, but not much specific about what they actually did (save for releasing confidential emails from the DNC) to accomplish this?

  3. #23
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    Re: Republicans Refuse to Defend Us Against Foreign Attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    So what have the "Russian cyberattacks" amounted to?
    IOW, what have they actually done, in their cyberattacks to "sway the elections"?

    I hear a lot of complaints about the Russians trying to sway the election, but not much specific about what they actually did (save for releasing confidential emails from the DNC) to accomplish this?
    It doesn't matter to me, it's an attack. Unless you're saying they are just doing this for fun.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  4. #24
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    Re: Republicans Refuse to Defend Us Against Foreign Attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    So what have the "Russian cyberattacks" amounted to?
    IOW, what have they actually done, in their cyberattacks to "sway the elections"?

    I hear a lot of complaints about the Russians trying to sway the election, but not much specific about what they actually did (save for releasing confidential emails from the DNC) to accomplish this?
    It is very difficult to measure what impact they had. Whether they were just a few more raindrops in the ocean, or they acted as a catalyst for existing animosity.

    The main narrative that they played out was to sew distrust in American politics. They pretended to be on both sides, though more for Trump than not. They released fake articles about the opposition, organized protests, and generally stirred the pot to make more people angry at other people. And they supported the most divisive candidate, the one most likely to follow their own naratives of conspiracy theories and distrust in established institutions.

    The purpose behind this is to make American government weaker. In a democracy, if you can lower the overall trust in the government, you paralyze policy-making to some degree. If the two parties are at each others thoughts, they are distracted and turned inward. This allows Russia to act on the global stage with less interference from the US. Russia competes with the US in a number of respects and if American policy is focused on internal debate, and public trust is low, their opponent is weaker and more easily exploited.

    Is America more divided, less trusting of the govnerment, and focused on our internal politics? I would say we are. Are the Russians to blame for that? Not entirely no. But they heaped fuel on that fire, and they seem to be getting what they are striving for.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  5. Likes CowboyX liked this post
  6. #25
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    Re: Republicans Refuse to Defend Us Against Foreign Attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    It doesn't matter to me, it's an attack. Unless you're saying they are just doing this for fun.
    A very curious, if not a dangerous thought......
    It "doesn't matter" what their level of "meddling in US elections" our response should be the same???

    After all, if it is indeed an "attack" it could warrant a military response.
    (What if it turned out they did little more than what the US does in their elections?)

    Yes I do believe Putin gets a fair amount of enjoyment out of all this, so not "just" for fun, the fun is an added benefit for him.

    ---------- Post added at 04:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:02 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    It is very difficult to measure what impact they had.
    Though their "impact" on the elections would be interesting to know, it's not at all what I asked.


    If the majority of the Russians "meddling" was releasing actual (true) confidential DNC email/memos to the American public (which is all I have been seeing in the news), I don't see it nearly as big an issue as say if they had broken into the voting counts and changed the actual voting numbers and literally changed the winner
    The former could be embarrassing but if they are only repeating the truth, generally I don't see a military response generally as justifiable. The latter could be considered an outright act of war!


    And I just don't understand why people don't care what the Russian's actually did and just whine that they did "something" they shouldn't have. At the very least people would actually know what they are complaining about!!
    Last edited by Belthazor; August 26th, 2018 at 05:50 PM.

  7. #26
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    Re: Republicans Refuse to Defend Us Against Foreign Attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    A very curious, if not a dangerous thought......
    It "doesn't matter" what their level of "meddling in US elections" our response should be the same???
    As far as the thread goes I'm just trying to get to "there should be a response" - currently not the republican's position. If you are in agreement with me then fine. You're welcome to explore the rest further if you like.

    Your position is that it is ok as long as the information was true. That's like saying it's ok that I robbed a bank because I used the money to buy food for the orphanage.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  8. #27
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    Re: Republicans Refuse to Defend Us Against Foreign Attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    As far as the thread goes I'm just trying to get to "there should be a response" - currently not the republican's position.
    1. I am not a fan of the republican party, but shouldn't the response be proportionate to the "crime"?
    2. What kind of "response" is reasonable/adequate/justifiable when you don't know what the Russians have done????

    ---------- Post added at 08:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:28 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Your position is that it is ok as long as the information was true.
    That would be a no'er there.
    My position is if they actually changed the outcome of the election it is virtually a declaration of war.
    I did not say I was "ok" with them hacking the DNC, just less concerned about them telling "a confidential truth" than directly changing the outcome of the election.
    If telling the truth changed the election, that is a different conversation...

  9. #28
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    Re: Republicans Refuse to Defend Us Against Foreign Attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    1. I am not a fan of the republican party, but shouldn't the response be proportionate to the "crime"?
    Sure, but I was referring to a response in preventing it from happening again. You can look up and evaluate the proposed bills if you like. Republicans are doing nothing.

    ---------- Post added at 12:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:45 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post

    That would be a no'er there.
    My position is if they actually changed the outcome of the election it is virtually a declaration of war.
    I did not say I was "ok" with them hacking the DNC, just less concerned about them telling "a confidential truth" than directly changing the outcome of the election.
    If telling the truth changed the election, that is a different conversation...
    You're saying the bank robber's sentence should be based on how much money they stole.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  10. #29
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    Re: Republicans Refuse to Defend Us Against Foreign Attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Sure, but I was referring to a response in preventing it from happening again.
    How the hell can anyone prevent "it" from happening again if we don't know what "it" is they have done?

    ---------- Post added at 11:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:51 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    You're saying the bank robber's sentence should be based on how much money they stole.
    Are you not aware that US law allows mitigating/aggravation circumstances with regards to sentencing.
    (for instance if you use a gun you generally get a longer sentence than if you have no weapon).

    And yes, if some one steals $100 they likely won't get as long a sentence as a person that stole $1,000,000. Of course this is a generalization, each case is judged by its unique merits.
    Last edited by Squatch347; August 28th, 2018 at 05:38 AM.

  11. #30
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    Re: Republicans Refuse to Defend Us Against Foreign Attacks

    [QUOTE=Belthazor;561135]
    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Sure, but I was referring to a response in preventing it from happening again.
    [COLOR="Silver"]

    How the hell can anyone prevent "it" from happening again if we don't know what "it" is they have done?
    Refer to the OP.

    ---------- Post added at 02:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:43 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post

    Are you not aware that US law allows mitigating/aggravation circumstances with regards to sentencing.
    (for instance if you use a gun you generally get a longer sentence than if you have no weapon).

    And yes, if some one steals $100 they likely won't get as long a sentence as a person that stole $1,000,000. Of course this is a generalization, each case is judged by its unique merits.
    The charge is the same.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  12. #31
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    Re: Republicans Refuse to Defend Us Against Foreign Attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    You're saying the bank robber's sentence should be based on how much money they stole.
    Bank robbery convictions are based upon the specifics of a robbery. A wide range of things may add time to a sentence. Potential influencing factors used during sentencing include:

    Whether or not a weapon was used. The type of weapon could also influence the sentence.
    The total amount of money stolen during the robbery.
    Whether or not people were injured or killed during the robbery
    Whether or not a person or persons were abducted during the robbery.
    Criminal history of the individual. The federal sentencing guidelines assign every offender one of six criminal history categories. This is based upon how long his sentences were for past crimes and how recently they occurred.
    Whether the person accepts responsibility for the crime. For example, if the suspect admits that he was involved in the crime or makes restitution before there is a guilty verdict, the sentence may be reduced somewhat

    https://www.federalcharges.com/bank-...-laws-charges/
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  13. #32
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    Re: Republicans Refuse to Defend Us Against Foreign Attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Bank robbery convictions are based upon the specifics of a robbery. A wide range of things may add time to a sentence. Potential influencing factors used during sentencing include:

    https://www.federalcharges.com/bank-...-laws-charges/
    The charge is the same.

    This is a silly off topic line.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  14. #33
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    Re: Republicans Refuse to Defend Us Against Foreign Attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    The charge is the same.
    The charge/s are not the same (given Even's examples and the stolen $100 vs $1,000,000 scenario) nor are the penalties.

    In Even's scenario, at the very least (it may vary by state), displaying a weapon while robbing a bank would be an "enhancement" to a felony charge, ie not the same charge and not the same penalties.

    In my scenario, the difference is a misdemeanor and a felony, and definitely not the same charges.

    ---------- Post added at 05:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:47 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    This is a silly off topic line.
    Given that you think the US response to Russia should be the same no matter how Russia tried to influence the US elections, I find this very on topic.

  15. #34
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    Re: Republicans Refuse to Defend Us Against Foreign Attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    In my scenario, the difference is a misdemeanor and a felony, and definitely not the same charges.
    Support please. {challenge thingy}

    ---------- Post added at 10:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:28 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post

    Given that you think the US response to Russia should be the same no matter how Russia tried to influence the US elections, I find this very on topic.
    Aww, no need to lie, liar.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  16. #35
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    Re: Republicans Refuse to Defend Us Against Foreign Attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Support please. {challenge thingy}[COLOR="Silver"]
    Support that:
    $100 is petty theft and not generally subject to jail time
    vs
    $!,000,000 is grand theft and a felony subject to jail time

    is this really what you are asking me to support???

    ---------- Post added at 07:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:51 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Aww, no need to lie, liar
    Indeed!

    My quote:
    " Originally Posted by Belthazor
    So what have the "Russian cyberattacks" amounted to?
    IOW, what have they actually done, in their cyberattacks to "sway the elections"?"
    Your response:
    "It doesn't matter to me, it's an attack. Unless you're saying they are just doing this for fun."

    There also is no reason to be an ass...
    I, as usual, have presented my opinion backed by support.
    Please refrain from further Ad Hom attacks though it does show you have little else to support your position....

  17. #36
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    Re: Republicans Refuse to Defend Us Against Foreign Attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Support that:
    $100 is petty theft and not generally subject to jail time
    vs
    $!,000,000 is grand theft and a felony subject to jail time

    is this really what you are asking me to support???
    Yes. I'm not in law enforcement. But we are talking about BANK ROBBERY, regardless of the amount.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  18. #37
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    Re: Republicans Refuse to Defend Us Against Foreign Attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Yes. I'm not in law enforcement. But we are talking about BANK ROBBERY, regardless of the amount.

    Ya, neither am I. I'm a mechanic but I knew the difference when I was single digits in age....
    Bigger crimes generally get bigger punishments...simple stuff....

    Even brought up bank robbery, I said $100 theft vs $1,000,000.

    you seem confused......

    and you missed the second half of my last post.
    Last edited by Belthazor; September 3rd, 2018 at 08:21 PM.

  19. #38
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    Re: Republicans Refuse to Defend Us Against Foreign Attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Ya, neither am I. I'm a mechanic.....

    Even brought up bank robbery, I said $100 theft vs $1,000,000.

    you seem confused......

    and you missed the second half of my last post.
    I said bank robbery and you responded. Are you changing your response because you've really derailed this thread. Get on with your support if this is important to you.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  20. #39
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    Re: Republicans Refuse to Defend Us Against Foreign Attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I said bank robbery and you responded. Are you changing your response because you've really derailed this thread. Get on with your support if this is important to you.
    You said the US needed to respond. I said the response should be proportionate to the "crime". You disagreed:
    "My quote:
    " Originally Posted by Belthazor
    So what have the "Russian cyberattacks" amounted to?
    IOW, what have they actually done, in their cyberattacks to "sway the elections"?"
    Your response:
    "It doesn't matter to me, it's an attack. Unless you're saying they are just doing this for fun."

    How has this "derailed this thread."??

  21. #40
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    Re: Republicans Refuse to Defend Us Against Foreign Attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    You said the US needed to respond. I said the response should be proportionate to the "crime". You disagreed:
    "My quote:
    " Originally Posted by Belthazor
    So what have the "Russian cyberattacks" amounted to?
    IOW, what have they actually done, in their cyberattacks to "sway the elections"?"
    Your response:
    "It doesn't matter to me, it's an attack. Unless you're saying they are just doing this for fun."

    How has this "derailed this thread."??
    Support that I asked for please. The smart thing to do would be to go out and look for stuff the republicans have done. You're just helping my argument by bloviating.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

 

 
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