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Thread: Reincarnation.

  1. #1
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    Reincarnation.

    There's a section of Waking life where Julie Delpy and Ethan Hawke reprise their roles from another Linklater film called "Before Sunrise" In the scene, They talk about reincarnation, and the question of souls is brought about like this:

    Delpy: "Ya know whenever I here someone talk about reincarnation, they always say they were ALexander the Great(not zhav) or Plato or Cleopatra or someone like that. I just tell them they were probably some dumb **** like everyone else."
    Hawke: "What are you saying? You don't believe in reincarnation?"
    Delpy: "It's not that, it's just that, there are a little over 6 billion people alive today with more being born, this is arguably the most populate time on earth, so, if you believe in souls, where do all the new souls come from? A soul is eternal, so, either you're born without a soul, or when you die it gets divided, either way, you have about a 40% chance of having a soul."

    I couldn't find an exact quoting, so that's from memory and it might not be accurate. Now then, the first suggestion I have is, considering the size of the universe, is it possible that, rather than there being new souls, that every soul on earth is merely just a soul from some other place in the universe? The obvious question, and one I can't answer is, even if that's true, life had to start "somewhere" and so, there couldn't BE this constant infinite mass of souls, so where do the souls come from if they exist?

    Discuss at leizure.
    But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
    1 Peter 3:15-16

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    Re: Reincarnation.

    My soul is not alien. How do I know? I don't, but how and why transport souls around the galaxy and the universe. It doesn't seem cost effective. A more logical explanation for our "life force" may be that our decomposed molecules perpetuates life right here on earth.
    While laughing at others stupidity, you may want to contemplate your own comedic talents. (link)
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    Re: Reincarnation.

    Quote Originally Posted by SnoopCitySid
    My soul is not alien. How do I know? I don't, but how and why transport souls around the galaxy and the universe. It doesn't seem cost effective. A more logical explanation for our "life force" may be that our decomposed molecules perpetuates life right here on earth.
    Like the extinction of the dinosaurs allowed for their life force to help create ours?
    But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
    1 Peter 3:15-16

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    Re: Reincarnation.

    Reincarnation is one thing I believe in. I am in the process of formulating my own theory, however, I lack a great deal of knowledge in the math and physics department that I feel would be necessary to prove anything I come up with.

    So...what I have is based only on philosophy and my own expansive imagination. I don't know if I'm ready to discuss it yet, just because it's still underdeveloped and could easily be attacked. There are some vultures around here :p

    I think reincarnation is definitely something that has always been, which is to say, I don't think it is something we have gradually started doing. I'm starting to attribute a lot of things to evolution, but I don't think reincarnation is one of those things.
    My brain is trying to kill me...

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    Re: Reincarnation.

    I used to believe in reincarnation, but that was in a previous life. This time round I'm a lot more skeptical.
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    Re: Reincarnation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Montalban
    I used to believe in reincarnation, but that was in a previous life. This time round I'm a lot more skeptical.
    Do you think you will get that belief back in time for your next morphing???
    "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.
    Emitte lucem et veritatem - Send out light and truth.
    'Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt' - Julius Caesar (rough translation, 'Men will think what they want to think')
    Kill my boss? Do I dare live out the American dream? - Homer Simpson.

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    Re: Reincarnation.

    Quote Originally Posted by SnoopCitySid
    My soul is not alien. How do I know? I don't, but how and why transport souls around the galaxy and the universe.
    Snoopy, do you ever sound asthmatic as you breathe into your dark helmet or do you ever feel the urge to point towards people and say, Exterminate, exerminate!!????
    "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.
    Emitte lucem et veritatem - Send out light and truth.
    'Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt' - Julius Caesar (rough translation, 'Men will think what they want to think')
    Kill my boss? Do I dare live out the American dream? - Homer Simpson.

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    Re: Reincarnation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FruitandNut
    Do you think you will get that belief back in time for your next morphing???
    As I don't believe in reincarnation THIS TIME, I can't say that I will indeed morph. I suggest you ask me in my next incarnation. Currently I'm too disdainful of the whole concept.

    I was going to reply to the "Art of Apathy" thread, but I couldn't be bothered. I don't know if that's apathy or not; maybe just plain old fashioned indifference.
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    Re: Reincarnation.

    Quote Originally Posted by SnoopCitySid
    My soul is not alien. How do I know? I don't, but how and why transport souls around the galaxy and the universe. It doesn't seem cost effective. A more logical explanation for our "life force" may be that our decomposed molecules perpetuates life right here on earth.
    What chemicals are currently compelling you to write on an online-forum? (I'm not talking about illicit drugs, but rather the DNA and other combos that make you 'you').
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    Re: Reincarnation.

    I don't believe in reincarnation. Too many unanswered questions that create too many holes in it.

    For starters...what is the mechanism that controls reincarnation? There has to be something beyond those who are being reincarnated, no? What is the something?

    Also, what decides what or how one will reincarnate? If you are influenced by Eastern teachings, it is Karma of course (but this causes a number of problems). If you have your own brand of reincarnation, then what would be that deciding factor that determines your next "body" of being?
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    Re: Reincarnation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis
    I don't believe in reincarnation. Too many unanswered questions that create too many holes in it.

    For starters...what is the mechanism that controls reincarnation? There has to be something beyond those who are being reincarnated, no? What is the something?

    Also, what decides what or how one will reincarnate? If you are influenced by Eastern teachings, it is Karma of course (but this causes a number of problems). If you have your own brand of reincarnation, then what would be that deciding factor that determines your next "body" of being?
    Consider that reincarnation is just rebirth. If the two words, which seem synonymous are interchangeable as such, then Christianity promotes the ideal of reincarnation, just in a different way.
    But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
    1 Peter 3:15-16

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    Re: Reincarnation.

    Christianity promotes the ideal of reincarnation, just in a different way.
    In the technical meaning of the word, yes. In the common usage, though, reincarnation usually refers to being reborn in a similar state to the first time.

    I am not a believer, but I can see how it would work. If it were me, I'd have a central depository for souls. When you die, your soul goes there. Then, when a new body opens up, a random soul goes in it. If there are more bodies then souls, a new soul is created, it's first birth. Thus, in the event of a major disaster, nuclear war, asteroid, etc, when more souls are going out than in, the worst that would happen would be a buildup of souls in the depository, which would drain out over time, as new bodies became available.

    What I don't get though, in any version of this, is what happens to memories? If you can't remember what happened, how can you learn from your past mistakes? Or are the important lessons somehow imprinted on your soul?
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    Re: Reincarnation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Hyde
    Consider that reincarnation is just rebirth.
    This is where we disagree. It is not "just" rebirth.

    Furthermore, Christians are resurrected, not reborn. We have the same souls and same bodies (not new bodies - which reincarnation teaches).
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    Re: Reincarnation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iluvatar
    I am not a believer, but I can see how it would work. If it were me, I'd have a central depository for souls. When you die, your soul goes there. Then, when a new body opens up, a random soul goes in it. If there are more bodies then souls, a new soul is created, it's first birth. Thus, in the event of a major disaster, nuclear war, asteroid, etc, when more souls are going out than in, the worst that would happen would be a buildup of souls in the depository, which would drain out over time, as new bodies became available.
    What would these souls be doing while they waited for a body? Would they be conscious? Would they be interacting?

    What I don't get though, in any version of this, is what happens to memories? If you can't remember what happened, how can you learn from your past mistakes? Or are the important lessons somehow imprinted on your soul?
    Bingo. If reincarnation rewards the good and punishes the bad, how does one know which direction they are headed at any given time? Also, some reincarnationists believe that one can reincarnate into an animal, not just human.

    Basically, it's fairy tale thinking. It's "pretty", but just doesn't have much actual thought put into it, and certainly no evidence as to its existence. The reincarnationist must not only concede to having no support/evidence for holding the belief, but also be forced to disbandon logic in order to believe.
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    Re: Reincarnation.

    Apok says: The reincarnationist must not only concede to having no support/evidence for holding the belief, but also be forced to disbandon logic in order to believe.
    In order to abandon logic, one would have to be somewhat logical to begin with or there would be nothing to abandon. I'll bet what I just said has been said before in this forum. Am I right?

    I guess reincarnation is not the best explanation for existence but I've heard worse.
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    Re: Reincarnation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis
    What would these souls be doing while they waited for a body? Would they be conscious? Would they be interacting?
    I seem to recall a movie that mentioned limbo or something as a place where waiting souls hung out waiting for reincarnation. I want to say there was a place where souls went in Jewish theology as well, but it was maybe not a canonical work that it came from???

    Jeez... Fuzzy facts. I hate them.

    Oddly, I don't think anyone can answer your other questions.

    Bingo. If reincarnation rewards the good and punishes the bad, how does one know which direction they are headed at any given time? Also, some reincarnationists believe that one can reincarnate into an animal, not just human.
    As I understand it, the process is the same as Christianity. One should always strive to do his/her best in order to achieve the rewards of the next incarnation.

    Yes, animals are for people who did not grow spiritually, I think. A regressive incarnation... I dunno for sure cause I am pulling this all from memory and am way too lazy to research it right now.

    Basically, it's fairy tale thinking. It's "pretty", but just doesn't have much actual thought put into it, and certainly no evidence as to its existence. The reincarnationist must not only concede to having no support/evidence for holding the belief, but also be forced to disbandon logic in order to believe.
    You know Apok, for someone who is such a staunch defender of his own faith, I must confess to being a little disappointed to see you denigrate the faith of millions of other adherents around the world. You of all people, having run the course from Atheist to Conservative Christian, should feel a little differently, I would think.

    As for logic in faith...

    Oh come on...

    Christianity calls for some leaps as well.

    Dead guys returning from the grave, walking on water, loaves and fishes, plagues, burning bushes, mana from heaven....

    I simply don't believe you embrace any logic when you settle on those beliefs either.

    Glass houses and all, ya know?

    Anyways, here's a site with some info. (Ya knew I couldn't stand it, didn't you?)

    http://www.comparativereligion.com/reincarnation1.html
    But if you do not find an intelligent companion, a wise and well-behaved person going the same way as yourself, then go on your way alone, like a king abandoning a conquered kingdom, or like a great elephant in the deep forest. - Buddha

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    Re: Reincarnation.

    Quote Originally Posted by SnoopCitySid
    In order to abandon logic, one would have to be somewhat logical to begin with or there would be nothing to abandon.
    If logic is the mere order of thought, one may dismiss order (abandon) without actually having it. That is, one may abandon it without having it. When we say "abandon", we mean to say that logical elements must be ignored in order to hold the belief.
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    Re: Reincarnation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipnish
    As I understand it, the process is the same as Christianity. One should always strive to do his/her best in order to achieve the rewards of the next incarnation.
    This is not the same as Christianity. Christianity isn't about works, it's about accepting grace. Furthermore, there are assurances to Christians that one will receive the rewards of the next life...what are the assurances for the reincarnated?

    You know Apok, for someone who is such a staunch defender of his own faith, I must confess to being a little disappointed to see you denigrate the faith of millions of other adherents around the world. You of all people, having run the course from Atheist to Conservative Christian, should feel a little differently, I would think.
    Why should I feel differently? I've NEVER seen reincarnation explained rationally. It appears to be that of absolute blind faith and void of reason. I disagree with any belief system or followers of a belief system that follows this path (even Christians).

    And me defending my faith has nothing to do with me defending other faiths. In fact, through attacking other faiths, my faith is defended.

    As for logic in faith...

    Oh come on...

    Christianity calls for some leaps as well.

    Dead guys returning from the grave, walking on water, loaves and fishes, plagues, burning bushes, mana from heaven....

    I simply don't believe you embrace any logic when you settle on those beliefs either.
    Sure I do. You are confusing logic with miracles. Miracles are not illogical, they are merely unnatural, or supernatural.

    The logic is as follows:

    If the world was created by an all-powerful being...
    then this being has the power to do the supernatural.

    The creation of the universe in the first place by this being would be by its very nature, supernatural. It would be ILLOGICAL to hold that such a being could not do on a LESSOR scale of what he has already done which was much grander. THAT is what is illogical.
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    Re: Reincarnation.

    Apok says: In fact, through attacking other faiths, my faith is defended.
    I have to discuss this statement - care to start a thread one day - I'm curious what others might think. You can phrase the question around that premise of fighting for your religion. A fight is more than physical battle - it is spiritual. All religions have the same strength but they develop different weaknesses (or vice vesa - all religions have the same weaknesses and develop different strengths).

    edit: I have to laugh at the similarity to a radical extremist in your statement!
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    Re: Reincarnation.

    Quote Originally Posted by SnoopCitySid
    I have to discuss this statement - care to start a thread one day - I'm curious what others might think. You can phrase the question around that premise of fighting for your religion. A fight is more than physical battle - it is spiritual. All religions have the same strength but they develop different weaknesses (or vice vesa - all religions have the same weaknesses and develop different strengths).
    Nope. The "attack" / "defense" is that of reason or logic.

    edit: I have to laugh at the similarity to a radical extremist in your statement!
    Not the same by any means.

    This is elementary logic. By attacking the claims of others, their arguments/position are weakened. By defending your own, yours is made stronger. If X is weakened, then Y is that much more strong. While not enough to prove anything, it is enough to validate the held position itself.
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