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  1. #181
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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Supreme court nominations and sexual assault accusations

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Sworn accusations by the accuser do not equal evidence nor corroborating evidence nor evidence of any kind...
    You are wrong. They are considered evidence. Testimony is considered evidence in a court of law.

    Evidence (dictionary.com): "The available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid."

    Testimony (blacks law dictionary): "Evidence of a witness; evidence given by a witness, under oath or affirmation; as distinguished from evidence derived from writings, and other sources."
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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  3. #182
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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Supreme court nominations and sexual assault accusations

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Evidence (dictionary.com): "The available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid."
    Could you tell me how an accusation = "The available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid."
    I just am not seeing it at all?

    ---------- Post added at 04:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:41 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Testimony (blacks law dictionary): "Evidence of a witness; evidence given by a witness, under oath or affirmation; as distinguished from evidence derived from writings, and other sources."
    You will note this describes a witness, not the accuser, and as I said in post #177:
    "A witness can give sworn testimony that is evidence (of a sort),..."

    Evidence supports or does not support an accusation. An accusation is a claim a crime was committed and is not evidence in and of itself in any sense!
    No conflict here...
    Last edited by Belthazor; October 20th, 2018 at 05:03 PM.

  4. #183
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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Supreme court nominations and sexual assault accusations

    Quote Originally Posted by cowboy
    I never said corroborating evidence.
    Which is funny, because that is what everyone else is talking about.

    Your basically just moving the goal posts to something that is irrelevant.
    We all accept that she offered her testimony, no one is objecting to that.

    Evidence for that testimony being true... that is the point of it all.
    Not evidence that she believes her testimony is true... evidence that it IS true.
    To serve man.

  5. #184
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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Supreme court nominations and sexual assault accusations

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    You are wrong.
    Perhaps, but certainly not according to anything you have offered so far...

  6. #185
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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Supreme court nominations and sexual assault accusations

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Which is funny, because that is what everyone else is talking about.

    Your basically just moving the goal posts to something that is irrelevant.
    We all accept that she offered her testimony, no one is objecting to that.

    Evidence for that testimony being true... that is the point of it all.
    Not evidence that she believes her testimony is true... evidence that it IS true.
    Evidence. Period. It is evidence. If it were a criminal proceeding it would be considered that way.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  7. #186
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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Supreme court nominations and sexual assault accusations

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    Evidence. Period. It is evidence. If it were a criminal proceeding it would be considered that way.
    So what? that isn't the issue. The problem is that we have twice the "evidence" against hers in the denial of the accused(here the two people claimed to be in the room). Which means one needs "corroborating evidence".
    Otherwise we can't know jack about the truth value of her claim.

    As I said, we are all aware that she has made the accusation. We need evidence that it is true. Which she has turned over nothing, despite claiming to have some in her possession.
    To serve man.

  8. #187
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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Supreme court nominations and sexual assault accusations

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Could you tell me how an accusation = "The available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid."
    I just am not seeing it at all?
    Helping the blind see is no easy feat. Testimony is information and it pertains to what was witnessed by the people who experienced it which speaks to whether a thing is true or valid.

    You will note this describes a witness, not the accuser, and as I said in post #177:
    "A witness can give sworn testimony that is evidence (of a sort),..."
    An accuser can also be a witness. If the accuser sees the crime, they are also a witness to it. They two roles are not at all exclusive of one another.

    Evidence supports or does not support an accusation. An accusation is a claim a crime was committed and is not evidence in and of itself in any sense!
    No conflict here...
    When describing what happened you can both be offering evidence and making an accusation. Again, while the two words have distinct meanings, they are not mutually exclusive. A home and a refuge are two different words with different meanings, but a home can also be a refuge.

    When evidence describes a crime, then it is also an accusation. The fact that it is accusatory does not change that it is evidence.

    ---------- Post added at 11:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:34 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    So what? that isn't the issue.
    True, but people who make false statements should be corrected.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  9. #188
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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Supreme court nominations and sexual assault accusations

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Helping the blind see is no easy feat.

    I have no idea why you thought this was an appropriate or meaningful statement. Especially since you really rebutted nothing from my last post and are mostly only giving your opinion.

    ---------- Post added at 09:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:30 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Testimony is information and it pertains to what was witnessed by the people who experienced it which speaks to whether a thing is true or valid.
    We seem to be discussing slightly different things?
    In a criminal prosecution, during a trial, the original statement/accusation from the complainant, that started an investigation, will not ever be entered as evidence against the defendant.
    Any witness statement, yes. The plaintiff's accusation no.

    ---------- Post added at 09:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:36 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Evidence. Period. It is evidence. If it were a criminal proceeding it would be considered that way.
    Then if I signed a sworn statement accusing you of a crime, that is evidence at trial that you actually committed a crime?

  10. #189
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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Supreme court nominations and sexual assault accusations

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post

    Then if I signed a sworn statement accusing you of a crime, that is evidence at trial that you actually committed a crime?
    Of course.

    ---------- Post added at 01:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:00 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    So what? that isn't the issue. The problem is that we have twice the "evidence" against hers in the denial of the accused(here the two people claimed to be in the room). Which means one needs "corroborating evidence".
    Otherwise we can't know jack about the truth value of her claim.
    Since they both have the possibility of being charged we actually have the same amount of evidence.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  11. #190
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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Supreme court nominations and sexual assault accusations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Of course.
    Wow....

    https://www.dictionary.com/browse/accusation
    noun
    a charge of wrongdoing; imputation of guilt or blame.
    the specific offense charged:
    The accusation is murder.
    the act of accusing or state of being accused.

    https://legal-dictionary.thefreedict...com/accusation
    A formal criminal charge against a person alleged to have committed an offense punishable by law, which is presented before a court or a magistrate having jurisdiction to inquire into the alleged crime.

    IOW, not evidence a crime was committed, the assertion that a crime has been committed.
    Remember, we are talking about K's accuser and her accusations specifically here.

    Between you and Sig I sense the:
    (as my friend MT would say, in his mostest, bestest Maxwell Smart tone of voice)

    "The ole, it's evidence because I say so trick...... Missed it by that much (his arms spread wide apart)!"

    ---------- Post added at 11:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:41 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    An accuser can also be a witness. If the accuser sees the crime, they are also a witness to it. They two roles are not at all exclusive of one another.
    In this case, the accuser is also the victim/plaintiff and her accusation would not be entered as evidence if it went to trial.
    Last edited by Belthazor; October 21st, 2018 at 03:25 PM.

  12. #191
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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Supreme court nominations and sexual assault accusations

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    True, but people who make false statements should be corrected.
    The context has always been about corroborating evidence.
    Don't make issues where non exist. This is an attempt to shift the debate away from the losing position that she provided no corroborating evidence, and possessed no corroborating evidence, and to elevate the simply assertion as more than it is.


    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    Since they both have the possibility of being charged we actually have the same amount of evidence.
    That is false. It is not a He said she said. There are at least 2 witnesses on his side that deny it, and 2 more that cast doubt on the validity of her claim.
    That is not 1 to 1 all even steven.
    That is 1 vs 4. In no sense even.
    To serve man.

  13. #192
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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Supreme court nominations and sexual assault accusations

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    I have no idea why you thought this was an appropriate or meaningful statement.
    I am prone to rhetorical flourishes.

    We seem to be discussing slightly different things?
    Possibly.

    In a criminal prosecution, during a trial, the original statement/accusation from the complainant, that started an investigation, will not ever be entered as evidence against the defendant.
    Any witness statement, yes. The plaintiff's accusation no.
    Well, in a criminal prosecution, the plaintiff is the state, not the victim. The complaint is filed by the state. An accuser is not the same thing as a plaintiff or a complainant. An accusor is anyone making an accusation, which in the case involved in this thread would be the alleged victim, Ford. In a criminal case, Ford's testimony, as a witnees to the crime, would be considered evidence. Let me remind you of the quote I objected to...

    Sworn accusations by the accuser do not equal evidence nor corroborating evidence nor evidence of any kind.
    in this case, the accusations are by a woman named Ford. Were this a criminal case, the State would be the complainant/plaintiff and Ford would be an accuser (not a precise legal term).

    Now, if you mean accuser as the plaintiff (which it could) then that only means the Government's statement isn't evidence. That would be true. However, I got the impression you were talking about Ford as the accuser. Her statements in court (sworn as you put it) would absolutely be testemony and evidence in the case.

    Looking back on the discussion, its clear that you were discounting Fords account of the event, saying that would not be considered evidence. You are wrong. In either a criminal or civil trial, if she were to giver her account of events in sworn testimony, that would be considered evidence in the trial. All such testimony is, unless it is struck from the record by the court for some reason.

    Then if I signed a sworn statement accusing you of a crime, that is evidence at trial that you actually committed a crime?
    Yes, that is exactly correct. Judges and Jurries are called on to weigh all the evidence presented. It so happens that evidence will contridict other evidence. When this happens, the Judge and Jury must weigh which evidence is stronger. They may decide one person's testimony is beleiivable, and another's is not. But this does not change the legal fact that both are considered evidence in the trial.

    ---------- Post added at 05:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:51 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    The context has always been about corroborating evidence.
    Don't make issues where none exist. This is an attempt to shift the debate away from the losing position that she provided no corroborating evidence and possessed no corroborating evidence, and to elevate the simple assertion as more than it is. .
    No, Balthazor said that it categorically was no evidence of any kind. He did not say it was merely uncorroborated evidence. Let me refresh your memory with the exact quote.

    Sworn accusations by the accuser do not equal evidence nor corroborating evidence nor evidence of any kind.
    He could admit this rather obvious error and move on, but instead he is arguing it, and he is wrong, so I'm on his case about it. I think when discussing the law, it's important to be accurate and correct.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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  15. #193
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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Supreme court nominations and sexual assault accusations

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post

    In this case, the accuser is also the victim/plaintiff and her accusation would not be entered as evidence if it went to trial.
    This is completely wrong. I suppose the accuser might not want to testify, but if they did it would be evidence to be considered as such.

    ---------- Post added at 10:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:48 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post

    That is false. It is not a He said she said. There are at least 2 witnesses on his side that deny it, and 2 more that cast doubt on the validity of her claim.
    That is not 1 to 1 all even steven.
    That is 1 vs 4. In no sense even.
    Sure it is. She said he did something, he said he didn't

    She also said the other guy did something else (maybe not as bad but still did something) and he said he didn't.

    It's two accusations and two denials.

    I don't know where the other two cast doubt. Is that reasonable? i.e., that because they didn't witness it it didn't happen? I can't see the cereal boxes in my kitchen cabinets right now with the doors closed, does that cast doubt on whether they are there?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  16. #194
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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Supreme court nominations and sexual assault accusations

    It is one accusation she is a single witness they are two witnesses. You are a very strange way of counting.
    Like if 100 people oppsed her.. her witness is equal? That is ridiculously non logical thinking.

    Also, it isn't that they didn't witness a thing. It is that they claimed to never know the person, whom the event requires then to know.

    Like, you remember that tine you and I met Neil Armstrong? Sig was there.
    Don't bother denying it.. my witness is equal to both your denials.
    To serve man.

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  18. #195
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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Supreme court nominations and sexual assault accusations

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    It is one accusation she is a single witness they are two witnesses. You are a very strange way of counting.
    Like if 100 people oppsed her.. her witness is equal? That is ridiculously non logical thinking.

    Also, it isn't that they didn't witness a thing. It is that they claimed to never know the person, whom the event requires then to know.

    Like, you remember that tine you and I met Neil Armstrong? Sig was there.
    Don't bother denying it.. my witness is equal to both your denials.
    I'm sure the mafia could produce 1000s of witnesses that Big Al was with them the night Maggie the Nun saw him kill Lefty. Do those 1000s outweigh 1?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  19. #196
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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Supreme court nominations and sexual assault accusations

    Yea.. that is why the mafia gets away with murder.
    ..ps. you still owe me that signed photo of Lance Armstrong. You said you would get me one while I was in line for food. You had signed with you, so I still want my share. Or did you sell it on eBay already without my permission?
    To serve man.

  20. #197
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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Supreme court nominations and sexual assault accusations

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Like, you remember that tine you and I met Neil Armstrong? Sig was there.
    Don't bother denying it.. my witness is equal to both your denials.
    I'm not denying it, that was good fun. We should get together for Beetles Rock band soon and drink to our old pall Neil.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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  22. #198
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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Supreme court nominations and sexual assault accusations

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Well, in a criminal prosecution, the plaintiff is the state, not the victim. The complaint is filed by the state. An accuser is not the same thing as a plaintiff or a complainant. An accusor is anyone making an accusation, which in the case involved in this thread would be the alleged victim, Ford. In a criminal case, Ford's testimony, as a witnees to the crime, would be considered evidence. Let me remind you of the quote I objected to...
    Well considering all the posts I have made in the last several days while having to sit home sick, if this is your only point of contention, I'll take it
    Between the pain and pain pills I just don't feel like arguing...

    So to celebrate, I retract any point I have made in this thread.

    If the thread is still alive when I feel better, perhaps I shall rejoin, until then I must drop out.

    Take care,
    Belthazor

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  24. #199
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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Supreme court nominations and sexual assault accusations

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Yea.. that is why the mafia gets away with murder.
    Pretty close.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  25. #200
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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Supreme court nominations and sexual assault accusations

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Well considering all the posts I have made in the last several days while having to sit home sick, if this is your only point of contention, I'll take it
    Between the pain and pain pills I just don't feel like arguing...
    Well, I only meant to correct the one statement. At any rate graciously accepted and rest well so you can kick our buts at a later time.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

 

 
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