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  1. #41
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    Re: Trump Engaged in Suspect Tax Schemes

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Just laws can be unjustly applied, that is not what we are talking about with the tax code.
    So, no the laws against murder are not unjust, and the burden of proof "beyond a reasonable doubt" is the most just we have access too.
    Ok, be specific as to what is wrong with the tax code.
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  2. #42
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    Re: Trump Engaged in Suspect Tax Schemes

    It is unknowable for the average citizen.
    It is a set of laws that by the nature of it's size and language can not reasonable be complied with in totality and certainly not easily.

    It's nature has oppened the door to gov abuse of the citizens (see how Obama's IRS targeted conservatives). This is a point about unequal application. Kinda like the exam Trump is getting by his political opponents that is not being likewise applied to other political characters.

    But worse still is that it has created the atmosphere by which lobby money flows into Washington. If you hate lobiests then you should hate the tax code which is the payback companies try for in their lobbying efforts. ( See star bucks, and it's tax specific exemptions)
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  3. #43
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    Re: Trump Engaged in Suspect Tax Schemes

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Ok, be specific as to what is wrong with the tax code.
    The tax code currently is about power. It has been made to be purposefully complex.

    ---------- Post added at 12:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:14 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    Right, after your salary is taxed, which goes to ensure your best interests along with the community's are paid for.
    Can you support that my tax dollars are only used to "ensure your best interests along with the community's are paid for."?

    ---------- Post added at 12:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:18 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    As already pointed out, there are those who understand the reasons why they should pay their fair share and don't take advantage of loopholes. The difference between the motivations of Trump and those folks is the point here, and we should be fostering the kind of society in which the rich act more like those and less like Trump.
    I don't think anyone here has suggested that no taxes are a good thing.

    1. Can you define: "their fair share". As in how much should a person pay that is fair and how close we are to that. For instance, on my property tax I think Fire Dept service is quite reasonable. The school portion (being over 50% of my states budget) is ridiculously high.
    2. "Loopholes" (a way to pay less tax under specific criteria) were put there by congress to be used.
    This is like saying no one should every plead the 5th amendment because they would obviously be guilty of a crime.
    If one is just plain filing an illegal tax return, fine, spank em. If they are using the tax laws as written (ie using loopholes) I don't see a legal/moral issue. Except that the law may need to be changed/modified/rescinded if it is having an undesirable effect. Using a "tax loophole" is not illegal nor immoral. It's fallowing the tax code.

  4. #44
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    Re: Trump Engaged in Suspect Tax Schemes

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    It is unknowable for the average citizen.
    How is that different than just about anything else? Real estate law is complicated, I just inherited another house and I'd be damned to know what half the things I signed were. You're argument is that it takes a professional to do your taxes, and, again, most important things do. Buy a house, adopt a child, deal with a legal matter, etc. The 1040EZ form is actually pretty simple, I used to use it when I was in college.

    Obama's IRS didn't only target conservatives, that is a lie of omission.

    ---------- Post added at 10:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:46 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post

    But worse still is that it has created the atmosphere by which lobby money flows into Washington. If you hate lobiests then you should hate the tax code which is the payback companies try for in their lobbying efforts. ( See star bucks, and it's tax specific exemptions)
    Well, I mean, really, that's all on you and the people you voted for so I don't know what you're complaining about. I don't see any democrats arguing that money is speech and that corporations are persons.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  5. #45
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    Re: Trump Engaged in Suspect Tax Schemes

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    How is that different than just about anything else? Real estate law is complicated, I just inherited another house and I'd be damned to know what half the things I signed were. You're argument is that it takes a professional to do your taxes, and, again, most important things do. Buy a house, adopt a child, deal with a legal matter, etc. The 1040EZ form is actually pretty simple, I used to use it when I was in college.
    Real estate, inheritance etc are all explained at signing. If you don't know what you signed, you weren't listening. They ask you if you understand at each step.

  6. #46
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    Re: Trump Engaged in Suspect Tax Schemes

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    The tax code currently is about power. It has been made to be purposefully complex.
    Many things are complex as I said to MT. Do you have any examples?

    ---------- Post added at 10:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:53 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Real estate, inheritance etc are all explained at signing. If you don't know what you signed, you weren't listening. They ask you if you understand at each step.
    Same with taxes, my accountant is quite thorough. I don't know who you are using. Maybe try someone different.

    What are you paying anyway (my guess is nothing)? I still don't pay any income tax despite my varied revenue streams.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  7. #47
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    Re: Trump Engaged in Suspect Tax Schemes

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Obama's IRS didn't only target conservatives, that is a lie of omission.[COLOR="Silver"]
    So Obama used the IRS to "target" people?

    Gee, it's fine though if more than "just conservative's" had their rights violated.....opps, I mean had been made a target of the IRS because the president wants it that way!

  8. #48
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    Re: Trump Engaged in Suspect Tax Schemes

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    So Obama used the IRS to "target" people?

    Gee, it's fine though if more than "just conservative's" had their rights violated.....opps, I mean had been made a target of the IRS because the president wants it that way!
    Yes.

    This was a while ago but as I remember it the administration was concerned about groups using a certain tax loophole - I'll agree that the preponderance of the groups were conservatively orientated at the time which led to the "Obama's using the IRS to target conservatives" cry. But he wasn't...technically.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  9. #49
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    Re: Trump Engaged in Suspect Tax Schemes

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    How is that different than just about anything else?
    1) They will break down your door with guns drawn if you don't comply.
    2) You are at risk of prison if you do not comply.

    Those are two right off the top of my head, and pretty significant differences at that.

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    Well, I mean, really, that's all on you and the people you voted for so I don't know what you're complaining about
    hahaha!.. "My people" you mean the party I registered with? The libertarian party?
    Your Hilarious.

    Also, the prospect that the democrats aren't responsible for the tax laws as well? O that is rich. Did you get a bridge sold to you with that as well?

    The tax code is the way it is, because all the politicians want it that way, it is not partisan. It is about selling political power, and obfuscating how the politicians cater to their special interests. That knife cuts both ways.
    I'm supris... well, never mind not really. Lefties just want to demonize the other side, not address legitimate concerns. I just hope that more people from the left will realize that this is an issue where bi-partisan grass roots support can be found on an issue.
    I mean, I would agree to just about any simplified tax code with all sorts of problems or challenges.. over what we currently have. I like the fair tax, and I like the flat tax, but.. I mean I would really go for any alternative really.

    Lastly, what a sad approach to say I can't object because my party is at fault. Why not welcome me to your side?.. Or maybe you don't have an actual political position to defend, more of just a posture from which to attack a political opponent. Good luck with that. If that is the thinking of your party, the only wave you guys will see is of those who are headed for the door.
    To serve man.

  10. #50
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    Re: Trump Engaged in Suspect Tax Schemes

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Many things are complex as I said to MT. Do you have any examples?
    The US tax code:
    According to CCH Standard Federal Tax Reporter, the current U.S. Federal Tax code is 73,954 pages long. A standard sheet of paper is 8.5 inches in width by 11 inches in length.

    If that sounds reasonable to you I doubt looking at the convoluted, purposefully technical details would impress you.

    Tell me, what you think would be an unreasonable tax code?

    ---------- Post added at 09:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:28 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    What are you paying anyway (my guess is nothing)? I still don't pay any income tax despite my varied revenue streams.
    Your response doesn't deal with my comment at all???

    and

    You sit on a mighty tall horse for some one that admits he doesn't pay "his fair share" or any of it at all!

    ---------- Post added at 09:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:31 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Yes.

    This was a while ago but as I remember it the administration was concerned about groups using a certain tax loophole - I'll agree that the preponderance of the groups were conservatively orientated at the time which led to the "Obama's using the IRS to target conservatives" cry. But he wasn't...technically.
    "Technically"?

  11. #51
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    Re: Trump Engaged in Suspect Tax Schemes

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    1) They will break down your door with guns drawn if you don't comply.
    2) You are at risk of prison if you do not comply.

    Those are two right off the top of my head, and pretty significant differences at that.
    Again, how does that differ from anything else. If I don't go through the proper adoption procedures they will knock down my door as well.

    ---------- Post added at 12:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:38 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Lastly, what a sad approach to say I can't object because my party is at fault. Why not welcome me to your side?.. Or maybe you don't have an actual political position to defend, more of just a posture from which to attack a political opponent. Good luck with that. If that is the thinking of your party, the only wave you guys will see is of those who are headed for the door.
    Because it is your party that is in control and they have passed major tax legislation recently. Own it, you do.

    ---------- Post added at 12:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:40 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    The US tax code:
    According to CCH Standard Federal Tax Reporter, the current U.S. Federal Tax code is 73,954 pages long. A standard sheet of paper is 8.5 inches in width by 11 inches in length.

    If that sounds reasonable to you I doubt looking at the convoluted, purposefully technical details would impress you.

    Tell me, what you think would be an unreasonable tax code?[COLOR="Silver"]
    It needs to be as large as it needs to be to do what we want it to do.

    ---------- Post added at 12:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:41 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post

    Your response doesn't deal with my comment at all???

    and

    You sit on a mighty tall horse for some one that admits he doesn't pay "his fair share" or any of it at all!
    Not sure which comment you are referring to.

    Well, we're talking about income tax right? I never said I don't pay taxes.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  12. #52
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    Re: Trump Engaged in Suspect Tax Schemes

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    It needs to be as large as it needs to be to do what we want it to do.[COLOR="Silver"]
    Wow! I doubt you could get the congressmen who voted all those pages to agree it is good law/code or that it needs to be/should be that complex!
    It also makes my last point about all the ridiculous complexity not to mention outright favoritism. Like here in WA we are trying to pass a bill that taxes "green house gas emitters". Problem is, some of the largest gas emitters are exempt. The US tax code is the same way. Companies like Boing are mentioned by name and taxed differently than everyone else, but that doesn't bother everyone I guess .

    ---------- Post added at 01:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:02 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post

    Not sure which comment you are referring to.

    Well, we're talking about income tax right? I never said I don't pay taxes.
    I was referring to:
    "What are you paying anyway (my guess is nothing)? I still don't pay any income tax despite my varied revenue streams."


    Sounds pretty clear. You are making money and not paying income tax per you!

  13. #53
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    Re: Trump Engaged in Suspect Tax Schemes

    Cowboy, so you are trying to compare adoption process, which had gov officials to walk you through the process, and basically deal with all the legal stuff, with a tax code they don't even bother to tell you which parts apply to you, and who if you ask a question are likely to get it wrong?
    Nice try... But epic fail.

    Yes the Republicans passed tax laws... More of the same problems that I am objecting too.. at best a bandade. I do hold them responsible for having no desire to actually reform the tax code by .. you know getting rid of the current system.your a hypocrite to make the kind of assertion you have.
    To serve man.

  14. #54
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    Re: Trump Engaged in Suspect Tax Schemes

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Wow! I doubt you could get the congressmen who voted all those pages to agree it is good law/code or that it needs to be/should be that complex!
    It also makes my last point about all the ridiculous complexity not to mention outright favoritism. Like here in WA we are trying to pass a bill that taxes "green house gas emitters". Problem is, some of the largest gas emitters are exempt. The US tax code is the same way. Companies like Boing are mentioned by name and taxed differently than everyone else, but that doesn't bother everyone I guess .[COLOR="Silver"]
    Oh yes, it does. I'm just puzzled by why you would care. That is the stuff your kind loves. After all you never got a job from a poor guy, right?

    ---------- Post added at 01:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:43 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post

    I was referring to:
    "What are you paying anyway (my guess is nothing)? I still don't pay any income tax despite my varied revenue streams."


    Sounds pretty clear. You are making money and not paying income tax per you!
    Right, because I don't make enough. What's your point?

    ---------- Post added at 01:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:44 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Cowboy, so you are trying to compare adoption process, which had gov officials to walk you through the process, and basically deal with all the legal stuff, with a tax code they don't even bother to tell you which parts apply to you, and who if you ask a question are likely to get it wrong?
    Nice try... But epic fail.
    The IRS has plenty of resources and plenty of people to ask. What was your experience with adopting?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  15. #55
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    Re: Trump Engaged in Suspect Tax Schemes

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Oh yes, it does. I'm just puzzled by why you would care. That is the stuff your kind loves. After all you never got a job from a poor guy, right?[COLOR="Silver"]
    Thoughtful response or mild ad hom?
    We have touched on "my kind" before you and I. Once again, I will say, I do not support the republican party (nor monarchy style gov't)


    If those types of exemptions do bother you then you agree the tax code is currently unfairly applied and unnecessarily complex to enable only certain people the ability to avoid taxes legally (ie "tax loop holes").

    ---------- Post added at 01:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:39 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Right, because I don't make enough. What's your point?[COLOR="Silver"]
    you post #46:
    "What are you paying anyway (my guess is nothing)? I still don't pay any income tax despite my varied revenue streams."

    you post #51
    "Well, we're talking about income tax right? I never said I don't pay taxes. "

    you post #54
    "Right, because I don't make enough [to pay taxes]. What's your point?"

    The point is you contradict yourself often.
    When you say you don't pay tax "despite my varied revenue streams" it implies an income level that would typically be taxed or why mention it at all.

    ---------- Post added at 02:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:46 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    The IRS has plenty of resources and plenty of people to ask. What was your experience with adopting?
    While this is kinda true, they only need these people because the tax code is made to be hard to understand on purpose.

    When one does avail themselves of the IRS help line, getting wrong answers to your questions is somewhat common because staff do not get adequately informed on the tax code:
    https://www.startchurch.com/blog/vie...you-bad-advice
    "In order to be a representative at this level, an agent receives 20 hours of training, and nothing more. No accounting or professional tax background is required."

    If you get bad advice from the IRS it doesn't matter. You can still be subject to penalties etc for incorrectly filing your return.

    Now if the code wasn't soooo complex, IRS staff could probably answer questions more accurately as well as less questions in the first place...

  16. #56
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    Re: Trump Engaged in Suspect Tax Schemes

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    The IRS has plenty of resources and plenty of people to ask. What was your experience with adopting?
    I don't see the relevance of these questions.
    To serve man.

  17. #57
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    Re: Trump Engaged in Suspect Tax Schemes

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I don't see the relevance of these questions.
    It's called redirecting I believe.....

  18. #58
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    Re: Trump Engaged in Suspect Tax Schemes

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post

    you post #46:
    "What are you paying anyway (my guess is nothing)? I still don't pay any income tax despite my varied revenue streams."

    you post #51
    "Well, we're talking about income tax right? I never said I don't pay taxes. "

    you post #54
    "Right, because I don't make enough [to pay taxes]. What's your point?"

    The point is you contradict yourself often.
    When you say you don't pay tax "despite my varied revenue streams" it implies an income level that would typically be taxed or why mention it at all.
    I'm not sure what you're getting at or why you think there are contradictions. I do pay income tax, but get it all back (so I really don't). Is that more clear?

    ---------- Post added at 10:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:34 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post

    While this is kinda true, they only need these people because the tax code is made to be hard to understand on purpose.
    Indeed, and like MT said there is help with adopting. I wouldn't adopt a child without a lawyer at the very least. Just like I don't do my taxes myself. So I don't understand how MT differentiates them. I suppose you could do it, just like you could buy a home without a lawyer and real estate agent. I don't think it is wise.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  19. #59
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    Re: Trump Engaged in Suspect Tax Schemes

    Quote Originally Posted by BELTHAZOR
    It's called redirecting I believe.....
    (maxwell smart voice).
    Ahh.. yes, the old distract from my bad argument trick. That's the second time that has happened to me.
    To serve man.

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  21. #60
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    Re: Trump Engaged in Suspect Tax Schemes

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    (maxwell smart voice).
    Ahh.. yes, the old distract from my bad argument trick. That's the second time that has happened to me.
    "which had gov officials to walk you through the process, and basically deal with all the legal stuff,"

    Just wondering what this means
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

 

 
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