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  1. #61
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    Re: Trump Engaged in Suspect Tax Schemes

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I'm not sure what you're getting at or why you think there are contradictions. I do pay income tax, but get it all back (so I really don't). Is that more clear?

    ---------- Post added at 10:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:34 PM ----------



    Indeed, and like MT said there is help with adopting. I wouldn't adopt a child without a lawyer at the very least. Just like I don't do my taxes myself. So I don't understand how MT differentiates them. I suppose you could do it, just like you could buy a home without a lawyer and real estate agent. I don't think it is wise.
    Since this is all you responded to, I will assume the other points in that post are agreed to.

    ---------- Post added at 10:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:44 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Indeed, and like MT said there is help with adopting. I wouldn't adopt a child without a lawyer at the very least. Just like I don't do my taxes myself. So I don't understand how MT differentiates them. I suppose you could do it, just like you could buy a home without a lawyer and real estate agent. I don't think it is wise.
    Then would it not be in the best interest of the American people to have a less complex tax system, so one could be expected to easily comply without needing help?

    ---------- Post added at 10:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:47 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I'm not sure what you're getting at or why you think there are contradictions. I do pay income tax, but get it all back (so I really don't). Is that more clear?[COLOR="Silver"]
    IOW, you pay no income taxes.
    Easy enough.

  2. #62
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    Re: Trump Engaged in Suspect Tax Schemes

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    "which had gov officials to walk you through the process, and basically deal with all the legal stuff,"

    Just wondering what this means
    It means we basically had our hand held through the process by the system set up to take you through it.
    I don't know.. maybe in your area they make you guess on how to fill out the paperwork or which child your going to get, and then throw you in jail for kidnapping.
    I don't know how they do it where your at.

    look I get it, your trying to say that there are other processes that are complex, and that you need help to navigate.
    The problem is your not required by law to go through those things. You don't have to buy a house, you don't have to adopt a child, you can sit at home do nothing and never face legal action.
    That simply isn't the case. Of course the problem is that taxes don't HAVE to be as complex as they are, they don't HAVE to be as predatory as they are. That is the problem.
    As I said, the gov could in fact send you a bill at the end of the year without you doing a thing, because they already have access to enough of your information. Then if you wanted you could check them.. but you wouldn't have too.
    Why would you object to that?
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  3. #63
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    Re: Trump Engaged in Suspect Tax Schemes

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Since this is all you responded to, I will assume the other points in that post are agreed to.
    Such as?

    ---------- Post added at 10:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:31 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post

    Then would it not be in the best interest of the American people to have a less complex tax system, so one could be expected to easily comply without needing help?[COLOR="Silver"]
    I suppose there's always room for improvement. You have any specific examples?

    ---------- Post added at 10:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:32 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post

    IOW, you pay no income taxes.
    Easy enough.
    Yes, technically it is withheld and then I am reimbursed for overpayment.

    ---------- Post added at 10:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:35 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post

    As I said, the gov could in fact send you a bill at the end of the year without you doing a thing, because they already have access to enough of your information. Then if you wanted you could check them.. but you wouldn't have too.
    Why would you object to that?
    Isn't that what they do through withholding? If your withholding is high enough you're never going to hear from the government.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  4. #64
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    Re: Trump Engaged in Suspect Tax Schemes

    No.. that is not what they do with witholding.
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  5. #65
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    Re: Trump Engaged in Suspect Tax Schemes

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    No.. that is not what they do with witholding.
    How so? (except that it's a little at a time all year not just a bill at the end) Let's say they withheld twice as much as is required by your income and you never filed a return for that year. Why would they bother you?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  6. #66
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    Re: Trump Engaged in Suspect Tax Schemes

    I don't know why they bother people as it is. Because you can't really know that they wouldn't bother you. If you think that is a good strategy, then do it and don't bother filing your taxes at the end of the year.. let me know how that works out for you.
    PS. I am pretty sure it is a violation to not file your taxes at the end of the year. Also the withholding is optional and is your best gues. Not the IRS best guess. It is also only the best guess for a certain kind of income.
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  7. #67
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    Re: Trump Engaged in Suspect Tax Schemes

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    PS. I am pretty sure it is a violation to not file your taxes at the end of the year.
    Maybe, but if you've overpaid why would they care? Why would the big ol' greedy government call you to remind you to file and get your money back?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  8. #68
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    Re: Trump Engaged in Suspect Tax Schemes

    Why wouldn't they if they have the power and the law on their side?
    The reason why they would..is because they can. Besides if they wait a few years they can make it so that you actually owe money.
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  9. #69
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    Re: Trump Engaged in Suspect Tax Schemes

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Can you support that my tax dollars are only used to "ensure your best interests along with the community's are paid for."?
    This has nothing to do with our exchange. Let's re-cap:
    B: "individual greed" still "allows" us "to thrive and procreate" ... My paycheck mostly goes toward my family's best interest, not the community best interest as a whole.
    Your point here is that individual greed is actually good, and provide the example of your paycheck going towards your family's best interests and not the community's best interests.

    My response: Right, after your salary is taxed, which goes to ensure your best interests along with the community's are paid for. And what happens when you, for whatever reason, are unable to get that paycheck? Do you honestly not understand the benefit you gain from paying taxes, and why it's best that everyone pays their full share?

    So again, even with your own example of your paycheck, your individual greed takes a secondary position to the priority of first ensuring the community's best interests are paid for.
    Whether our tax dollars are "only used" for that is irrelevant. The fact that taxes are used to ensure social security and that you as an individual also benefit from it demonstrates my point about ensuring the community's best interests over feeding our individual greed.
    Either respond to the actual point with a rebuttal or cede it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    I don't think anyone here has suggested that no taxes are a good thing.
    1. Can you define: "their fair share". As in how much should a person pay that is fair and how close we are to that. For instance, on my property tax I think Fire Dept service is quite reasonable. The school portion (being over 50% of my states budget) is ridiculously high.
    2. "Loopholes" (a way to pay less tax under specific criteria) were put there by congress to be used.
    This is like saying no one should every plead the 5th amendment because they would obviously be guilty of a crime.
    If one is just plain filing an illegal tax return, fine, spank em. If they are using the tax laws as written (ie using loopholes) I don't see a legal/moral issue. Except that the law may need to be changed/modified/rescinded if it is having an undesirable effect. Using a "tax loophole" is not illegal nor immoral. It's fallowing the tax code.
    This also has nothing to do with our exchange. Let's re-cap:
    B: if the tax code wasn't so stupid, Trump would have no "loopholes" to take advantage of.
    Your point here is that Trump is not at fault for taking advantage of loopholes because it's the tax code's fault for being so stupid to have them.

    My response: As already pointed out, there are those who understand the reasons why they should pay their fair share and don't take advantage of loopholes. The difference between the motivations of Trump and those folks is the point here, and we should be fostering the kind of society in which the rich act more like those and less like Trump.

    The fact that there are loopholes is one problem, but the fact that there are people who take advantage of them is a separate problem, which isn't excused by the fact that there are loopholes. Again, since there are people who understand why they should pay their full share and don't take advantage of loopholes to avoid paying their full share, this demonstrates that the only problem isn't the loopholes - we also have a problem of greedy assholes who don't want to pay their full share while at the same time getting rich off the same system they're not paying their full share into.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Using a "tax loophole" is not illegal nor immoral. It's fallowing the tax code.
    Again I point out the fact that there are people who understand why they should pay their full share and don't take advantage of loopholes. The fact that there are those who do it and those who don't, and the difference between their motivation and the effect on society is what I'm pointing out here, and all you're replying with is, "well, the tax code is stupid so it's fine that they're being greedy assholes". Way to go.

    Further, this doesn't even begin to address the fact that some of what those greedy assholes are doing amounts to actual fraud (All County Building Supply & Maintenance being a prime example), and isn't just harmless "taking advantage of loopholes".

  10. #70
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    Re: Trump Engaged in Suspect Tax Schemes

    The use of the phrase " fair share" assumes too much.
    First it assumes that current tax levels are in fact a " fair share" of social obligations. There is a such thing as an immoral tax burden. For example over 50percent of ones incone is an immoral tax burden. The very idea that the gov can be owed more than ones self inregards to one's own labor, is in fact reprehensible.
    Further it assumes that all the gov is doing is for the individuals benefit. Which is highly debatable.

    These assumptions make the term a loaded one and it shouldn't be used unless the assumptions are first agreed upon. Which I certainly do not.
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  11. #71
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    Re: Trump Engaged in Suspect Tax Schemes

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    The reason why they would..is because they can. Besides if they wait a few years they can make it so that you actually owe money.
    How so?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  12. #72
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    Re: Trump Engaged in Suspect Tax Schemes

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    How so?
    Do you mean, how is failing to file your taxes against the tax laws?
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  13. #73
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    Re: Trump Engaged in Suspect Tax Schemes

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Do you mean, how is failing to file your taxes against the tax laws?
    I guess, yes. And what would be the mechanism for them ginning up an overpayment (that would be a reimbursement if you filed) to be a payment if twice had already been withheld?

    And how much more could they get? Like 100 times or something?


    The last time I did this (both state and federal) I had missed filing for a year and I filed six years later. Both returns I was due a refund. I can't remember exactly what happened but it was either I wasn't contacted by one of them and the other told me that after three years they weren't required to refund me - or it may have been that both of them said that.

    Regardless, I was due a refund (I think $800-$1000 federal and $400 state) and I was never contacted or pursued by them nor was I penalized in any way.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  14. #74
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    Re: Trump Engaged in Suspect Tax Schemes

    @ cowboy.. so what? That doesn't mean they couldn't and that is only taking a very small portion of the tax law into account.
    So let's get something g strait to begin with. If the irs woke up with a wild hair up it's ass and decided you owed 1 million dollars. They could sell your house and all your assets before you could get out of bed properly.
    So what the " could" do is pretty extreme.
    Your arguing from a position of why would they do it. Which misses the point.
    The point is you don't know the tax law in totality so you don't really know what you owe, and neither does the IRS because they can't know the tax law iether. Which gives them license to so the extremes. Maybe if your name was rush limbau the. You would have received the future anal exam by the IRS. ( As some are audited yearly... By random??)
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  15. #75
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    Re: Trump Engaged in Suspect Tax Schemes

    Of COURSE Trump engaged in tax fraud. So did his father.

    The reason people say things like "Who HASN'T engaged in tax fraud?" is because THEY THEMSELVES engage in tax fraud, and so they think everyone else does, too (hint: they don't).

    Extreme Conservatives are willing to abandon every principle they claim is central to their core beliefs if they think it helps them win. That's why 1) they DO win and 2) they have no problem with worshiping an obvious piece of human s#!t like Trump.

    Extreme Liberals are willing to cannibalize their own and burn down their own homes if they think they have a chance to brag to everyone about how moral and principled they are. That's why 1) they always lose and 2) they have no problem with complete, total, and obvious anarchy.

    Welcome to the Terrordome.

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  17. #76
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    Re: Trump Engaged in Suspect Tax Schemes

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    @ cowboy.. so what? That doesn't mean they couldn't and that is only taking a very small portion of the tax law into account.
    So what? So you have nothing but a wild conspiracy theory. I thought you might know what you were talking about...I was wrong.

    ---------- Post added at 03:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:40 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Of COURSE Trump engaged in tax fraud. So did his father.

    The reason people say things like "Who HASN'T engaged in tax fraud?" is because THEY THEMSELVES engage in tax fraud, and so they think everyone else does, too (hint: they don't).
    But MT takes it a step further by saying that even if you don't engage in tax fraud you do because you don't know every word of the law.

    It is his argument to support, which he hasn't.

    Sure, ignorance of the law may be no excuse, but that's not all there is to it. There's also intent.

    Anecdote #2 - I once received an overpayment of $1500 from an unemployment claim (sure not the IRS, but it's still the evil government). The payment was due to a mistake on my part where I miscalculated my gross. I was called in, had to give a deposition and was told that it was a believable mistake and that my intent was not to defraud so any repayment was waived (they also considered the small size of the overpayment).
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  18. #77
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    Re: Trump Engaged in Suspect Tax Schemes

    @ cowboy. My only assertion is that no one can know for certain that they are not in violation of the tax code and that the it's has the ability to catch anyone in tax code violation.

    @ Dio.
    In another video I posted in another about not talking to the police, the lawyer made a joke about claiming to not be in violation of tax law. His point is that it is simply a ridiculous claim so much that it is a common joke among lawyers.
    So I don't think it is only people engaged in tax fraud, rather a commentary on the convoluted and complex nature of the tax law.
    Now using it to excuse behavior.. that is true.
    I think my claiming to lack the care about this assertions truth value is a kind of excuse of the behavior, and I really wish I felt different. But I just can't bring myself to care about the alleged but not officially found by the IRS tax evasion. The way our system is set up if they don't catch you the it didn't happen and If the IRS does assert it, the. It is by definition true. Because they are the ones applying it and all you can do is basically say "are you sure irs that you want to apply the tax code to me in this or that way.
    To serve man.

 

 
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