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  1. #21
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/15/polit...ion/index.html
    https://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...even-though-he
    The two links above are stories reporting that trump denied his offer, and offering the quote "i never said that" as support for that claim.

    These seem to be doing a bit of shoddy journalism.
    This is a link to the video which they are referring
    https://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...even-though-he

    Trump is not responding to a clear question, and so his quote of "I never said that" is not a denial of the challenge he issued, but that she has met the challenge.
    In fact the statement he is responding to was "you said you would give 1mil dollars to charity".
    An in fact, trump did not say he would give 1mil to charity.. because that is only a partial quote.
    He said he would give 1mil to charity IF.....



    This is an example of the media twisting context, and also doing a piss poor job of asking pointed questions.
    It's pretty shoddy journalmalising (miss spelled on purpose).
    That is what you call "fake news" son.
    Right. Because technically, he said he would have to toss her the DNA test on the debate stage ever so gently and then give 1m to charity if she takes the test and it shows she is an Indian. It's criteria that can never be met. He knows that. It's what he does. Warren fell into a trap of her own making.
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  2. #22
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post

    Trump is not responding to a clear question, and so his quote of "I never said that" is not a denial of the challenge he issued, but that she has met the challenge.
    In fact the statement he is responding to was "you said you would give 1mil dollars to charity".
    An in fact, trump did not say he would give 1mil to charity.. because that is only a partial quote.
    He said he would give 1mil to charity IF.....
    Ok, so he's not denying the challenge he issued, when is he going to pay up?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  3. #23
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Ok, so he's not denying the challenge he issued, when is he going to pay up?
    He doesn't need to pay up. He said something to the effect "...and if she is an Indian." He offered no criteria for what being an Indian is so that's how he backs out of the deal. Just having Native American genes doesn't make you an Indian, does it?

    Part of the issue here is that normal folks make statements on good faith. Trump doesn't do that. He always leaves a technical out.
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  4. #24
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by SNACK
    Right. Because technically, he said he would have to toss her the DNA test on the debate stage ever so gently and then give 1m to charity if she takes the test and it shows she is an Indian. It's criteria that can never be met. He knows that. It's what he does. Warren fell into a trap of her own making.
    yea the media twisted his statement of "i didn't say that" to imply him denying his original demand.
    Which, as you point out, he doesn't need to deny it.. because she hasn't met it.
    So the media is spreading a false story, in order to make trump look bad.
    Which, as you also kinda point out.. they don't need to, he does plenty of legit bad stuff, they don't need to go round making **** up.

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    Ok, so he's not denying the challenge he issued, when is he going to pay up?
    When she meets the criteria.
    She failed. Her test showed that she is not an Indian, and not even reasonably related to one.
    So no need for him to deny the challenge, he is denying her fulfillment.
    Media needs to focus on one of the other many stupid and false things he said. instead of you know.. making stuff up and spreading a false narrative.
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  5. #25
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    That's not what your source says ...
    Welcher.
    It's unfortunate that you can't objectively look at the facts and see that the DNA test does not prove Warren is an indian, and instead just regurgitate the political spin included in the story.
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  6. #26
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    It's unfortunate that you can't objectively look at the facts and see that the DNA test does not prove Warren is an indian, and instead just regurgitate the political spin included in the story.
    Indeed, it is but one part of a complex question, but it does show her to have the ancestry:

    "Bustamante’s report concluded that “while the vast majority of” Warren’s “ancestry is European, the results strongly support the existence of an unadmixed Native American ancestor in the individual’s pedigree, likely in the range of 6-10 generations ago.” We have edited the short answer and other parts of this article to reflect that Warren has now provided documentation for her claim to be part Native American, which she had previously not done."

    ---------- Post added at 11:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:16 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by snackboy View Post
    He doesn't need to pay up. He said something to the effect "...and if she is an Indian." He offered no criteria for what being an Indian is so that's how he backs out of the deal. Just having Native American genes doesn't make you an Indian, does it?
    No, he said he'd give her the test kit, so, according to him the DNA test was what he was looking for. By his own criteria - not the Cherokee affiliated tribes' criteria, she has met the bet so he should pay up.
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  7. #27
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    As a little girl, she may have believed it. Even as a teenager. But as an adult, a university professor, and a US Senator, has she given up the claim? No. It would be real easy for her to say "I'm proud of the part of my heritage that is Cherokee, and I would have been proud to be part of that Nation, but I'm not." I think it would even be the politically smart thing to do at this point. But she hasn't done that. Instead, she appears to cling to the hope that people will see her as a minority.
    Well, she does have some Native Ancestry, it just isn't sufficient to make any strong claim to a Native identity. But on the whole I agree. She should have simply apologised for overstating her claim, and that she is proud of her family and its lineage, and leave it at that.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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  9. #28
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    No, he said he'd give her the test kit, so, according to him the DNA test was what he was looking for. By his own criteria - not the Cherokee affiliated tribes' criteria, she has met the bet so he should pay up.
    Trump said "and if she is an Indian." She can't make that claim because she doesn't know what Trump meant be Indian. But the government's definition she is not. By the Cherokee's definition she is not. So by who's definition is she an Indian?

    You, like media, are taking Trump's statement on good faith. That's not how Trump works. Trump is always literal. He created a criteria that he knew couldn't be met and therefore he would never have to pay up. And if push came to shove in that all the criteria was met, he would just say he was speaking rhetorically.
    Only what can happen does happen. ~Watchmen
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  10. #29
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by snackboy View Post
    Trump said "and if she is an Indian." She can't make that claim because she doesn't know what Trump meant be Indian.
    He said he'd hand her the test, so that's what he meant.

    ---------- Post added at 11:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:11 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by snackboy View Post
    You, like media, are taking Trump's statement on good faith. That's not how Trump works. Trump is always literal. He created a criteria that he knew couldn't be met and therefore he would never have to pay up. And if push came to shove in that all the criteria was met, he would just say he was speaking rhetorically.
    That's called being a welcher.
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  11. #30
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    He said he'd hand her the test, so that's what he meant.

    ---------- Post added at 11:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:11 AM ----------



    That's called being a welcher.
    I get what you're saying, but the reality is you want Trump to have said something he didn't say.
    Only what can happen does happen. ~Watchmen
    When the Standard is defined you will know how right or wrong you are.
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  12. #31
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by snackboy View Post
    I get what you're saying, but the reality is you want Trump to have said something he didn't say.
    He didn't say "if the affiliated Cherokee tribes accept her claim"
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  13. #32
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Talking about good faith, the challenge was to provide justification and proof of Warrens claim.
    The fact is that the DNA test does not justify her claim. One can't nor should have claim to minority status, on the basis of results of her DNA test.

    To change it to some "technical" claim. is not good faith at all, because according to the DNA test she should be laughed out of any building for which she claims minority status.
    https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...-native-ameri/

    Quote Originally Posted by LINK
    There is no dispute that Warren formally notified officials at the University of Pennsylvania and then Harvard claiming Native American heritage after she was hired.

    Her detractors say she deployed a faux Native American connection to improve her chances of landing teaching jobs at two of the country’s top law schools. However, there is no proof Warren gained any special advantage in her career.
    That is the context of the challenge. If the evidence doesn't support that claim to minority status, then the challenge is not met.

    The DNA test simply does not justify her claims to minority status, so there is no reason for Trump to be make good on the challenge.. because it hasn't been met.

    Them the facts and context.
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  14. #33
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    One can't nor should have claim to minority status, on the basis of results of her DNA test.
    Ok agreed. However, Donald Trump disagrees as that was his measure.

    He's a welcher.
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  15. #34
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    @ cowboy, your projecting meaning and context that wasn't there. This was not a legal document type challenge that you take to court and nit pic wording. The context of the discussion is clear. The problem is ultimately Warren and her false claims. You seem to be more interested in trying to politically spin this. And frankly no one outside the liberal Ecco chamber is buying it. No rational person thinks Warren substantiated heg claim and thus met the challenge.
    Trump did a brilliant job of exploiting her false statement and now she has effectively burned downtown the teepee of her presidential run asperations.
    To serve man.

  16. #35
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Who cares what Trump said or did? The thread is about whether Warren was fraudulent in her claim of being native american. So, can she reasonably claim Native American ancestry? The answer is that by any reasonable standard which we use to determine membership in a NA tribe, the answer is, no. Period. Her claim is false. Mostly false if we are being generous. On top of that, she used her false identity to establish favorable employment and continued her claims as she was being held up as a minority hire. She literally took the place of an actual minority when she allowed herself to be complicit in this deception. Hey, but if she is your great white hope in 2020, God Bless, or should I say, U ne la nv hi u da do li s di (Blessing of god in Cherokee).
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

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  18. #36
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    So, can she reasonably claim Native American ancestry? The answer is that by any reasonable standard which we use to determine membership in a NA tribe
    That's two different things.

    ---------- Post added at 12:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:37 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    On top of that, she used her false identity to establish favorable employment and continued her claims as she was being held up as a minority hire.
    Untrue.

    "the Globe, in a separate, lengthy article about Warren’s rise in academia, said that it interviewed “a wide range of professors and administrators who recruited or worked with Warren” who all “said her ethnic background played no role in her hiring.”

    Those interviewed included Stephen B. Burbank, a Penn Law School professor who recommended hiring Warren, Hank Gutman, the chair of the school’s appointments committee at the time Warren was recruited, and Robert H. Mundheim, the dean who hired Warren at Penn.

    All three men said they were unaware that Warren, a nationally recognized scholar in bankruptcy and commercial law, claimed to be part American Indian.

    Charles Fried, a former U.S. solicitor general under President Ronald Reagan, also vouched for Warren. Fried, a Harvard Law School professor who was on the appointments committee that recommended hiring Warren in 1995, told the Herald that Warren’s heritage never came up during the hiring process there.

    “It simply played no role in the appointments process. It was not mentioned and I didn’t mention it to the faculty,” he was quoted saying.

    In a 2012 statement released through Harvard, Fried added: “Elizabeth Warren was recruited (she did not apply — one does not apply for these positions) to be a tenured professor at Harvard because she was preeminent in the fields of bankruptcy and commercial law, two fields in which we had strong teaching needs.”"

    ---------- Post added at 12:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:41 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Who cares what Trump said or did?
    Then he won't have a problem paying up.

    It is important because this is the same thing he did concerning Obama's birth certificate. It was a continual example of moving the goal posts where nothing would satisfy the claim made against him. This was debated endlessly here on this website.

    So what Trump asked for in is crucial to clearing up the bet. He asked for a DNA test and he got it. Now asking that she be recognized as a full member by the affiliated tribes is just a cheap excuse for welching on his bet.

    ---------- Post added at 12:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:50 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Trump did a brilliant job of exploiting her false statement and now she has effectively burned downtown the teepee of her presidential run asperations.
    Nothing she has said has been shown to be false that I've seen, please support that. https://www.factcheck.org/2017/12/el...s-controversy/

    I'll agree that using racism is an effective tool of the republican party...Bush-McCain, Trump-Obama, Trump-Warren.
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  19. #37
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    That's two different things.
    Technically, you are correct. However, I think she has conflated the two by acknowledging her NA heritage as implying that she has some sort of connection to the NA people.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Untrue.

    "the Globe, in a separate, lengthy article about Warren’s rise in academia, said that it interviewed “a wide range of professors and administrators who recruited or worked with Warren” who all “said her ethnic background played no role in her hiring.”

    Those interviewed included Stephen B. Burbank, a Penn Law School professor who recommended hiring Warren, Hank Gutman, the chair of the school’s appointments committee at the time Warren was recruited, and Robert H. Mundheim, the dean who hired Warren at Penn.

    All three men said they were unaware that Warren, a nationally recognized scholar in bankruptcy and commercial law, claimed to be part American Indian.

    Charles Fried, a former U.S. solicitor general under President Ronald Reagan, also vouched for Warren. Fried, a Harvard Law School professor who was on the appointments committee that recommended hiring Warren in 1995, told the Herald that Warren’s heritage never came up during the hiring process there.

    “It simply played no role in the appointments process. It was not mentioned and I didn’t mention it to the faculty,” he was quoted saying.

    In a 2012 statement released through Harvard, Fried added: “Elizabeth Warren was recruited (she did not apply — one does not apply for these positions) to be a tenured professor at Harvard because she was preeminent in the fields of bankruptcy and commercial law, two fields in which we had strong teaching needs.”"

    Yes, no one acknowledged her NA background as a reason for her employment. However, it is also without question, that her supposed NA ancestry was being touted during a time at which Harvard was looking to bolster its minority hiring record. She did nothing to correct this perception when Harvard announced her as a minority staff member. This is a coy game being played. She tried to walk a fine line and got caught on the wrong side of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Then he won't have a problem paying up.

    It is important because this is the same thing he did concerning Obama's birth certificate. It was a continual example of moving the goal posts where nothing would satisfy the claim made against him. This was debated endlessly here on this website.

    So what Trump asked for in is crucial to clearing up the bet. He asked for a DNA test and he got it. Now asking that she be recognized as a full member by the affiliated tribes is just a cheap excuse for welching on his bet.

    In terms of the OP, it is not relevant at all. You are just playing partisan hack again. The OP is about Warren's claim. Nothing more. Nothing less. Trump has zero to do with her claim.
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  20. #38
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post

    In terms of the OP, it is not relevant at all. You are just playing partisan hack again. The OP is about Warren's claim. Nothing more. Nothing less. Trump has zero to do with her claim.

    Indeed, she never claimed to be a member of any nation and there was no fraud. She met the requirements of Trump's bet and he should therefore pay up.
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  21. #39
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Indeed, she never claimed to be a member of any nation and there was no fraud. She met the requirements of Trump's bet and he should therefore pay up.
    No, she has not proven she is an Indian.
    Only what can happen does happen. ~Watchmen
    When the Standard is defined you will know how right or wrong you are.
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  22. #40
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by cowboy
    Nothing she has said has been shown to be false that I've seen
    She claimed to be a member of a minority group.

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    I'll agree that using racism is an effective tool of the republican party...Bush-McCain, Trump-Obama, Trump-Warren.
    You can forward it, but we don't agree on that.
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