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  1. #101
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    You have not supported that she is even claiming to "be a Native American", let alone that the video was an attempt to support her claim to be NA. Again, please support that she continues to claim to "be a Native American". Then feel free to support that the video was "an attempt to support her claim to be a Native American".
    She has claimed to be Native American. Any honest assessment of the video will conclude it was an attempt to support that claim. She has since apologized, under extreme pressure, and admitted she is not native American. She no longer makes that claim. I'm not going to keep going round and round with you on these facts, FB. Accept them or disprove them. Otherwise, we're done.

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    Since you have not responded regarding your claim that she is no more NA than the average American, am I correct in assuming you retract it? Please confirm.
    Sure, she has slightly more NA ancestry than the average American with European ancestry. That does not mean she is NA, and she now admits that she is not.

    You evaded my question, so I'll ask again and rephrase. Does the passage of four months, with an apology and admission under extreme pressure that she "should have been more mindful", wash away the fraud she was perpetrating? Yes or no? Again, if you can't answer straightforward questions and offer real facts and legitimate reasoning, I'm done with you here.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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  3. #102
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    She has claimed to be Native American. Any honest assessment of the video will conclude it was an attempt to support that claim.
    This is not support that she "continues claiming to be Native American", as you stated in post #97.

    Now you're saying that she "has claimed to be NA", which is a noticeable shift in the language you previously used of "continues to claim". But again, she has apologized and explained the reasoning behind it - reasoning which, together with the fact that she was ready to take the DNA test, refutes your claim that she did it fraudulently.

    Furthermore, your attempt to frame the video as "support for the claim to be NA" is wholly incorrect, as she uses clear language in the video to clarify how her upbringing and family heritage all led her to believe she had NA ancestry (which she does), and doesn't at all talk about actually "being NA". Honestly, at this point in time, after all the jeering & petty accusations, for anyone to think she'd try to make or support any claim to actually "be Native American" is simply absurd. But I guess it isn't that much of a stretch for MAGA republicans.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Otherwise, we're done.
    There it is - the good old "we're done" evensaul threat ... I was waiting for that tired old chestnut to rear its ugly head.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Sure, she has slightly more NA ancestry than the average American with European ancestry.
    Great, thank you for confirming and retracting your claim! Was that really so hard? You complain about "going round and round on facts", but it's your own fault for misrepresenting them and then refusing to accept them when they are correctly presented to you. It really is bad form to then complain about having to deal with actual facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    You evaded my question, so I'll ask again and rephrase. Does the passage of four months, with an apology and admission under extreme pressure that she "should have been more mindful", wash away the fraud she was perpetrating?
    Since you have not supported that it was fraud (intentionally misleading for personal gain), your question is a non-starter, so there's nothing to evade. Again, if you want to present facts and actually make an argument and respond to rebuttals, then do so. I've already rebutted your claim that it was fraud, which you still have not addressed, so that would be a good place to start.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Again, if you can't answer straightforward questions and offer real facts and legitimate reasoning, I'm done with you here.
    Double-whammie threat! You do spoil me, even ...
    But if you really want to be done, that's fine - I'll accept that and we can leave it at you failing to support that she committed fraud by intentionally claiming to be NA for personal gain. You don't need to confirm or anything, I'm quite happy to take your lack of response as confirmation that you retract your OP.

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  5. #103
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    Furthermore, your attempt to frame the video as "support for the claim to be NA" is wholly incorrect, as she uses clear language in the video to clarify how her upbringing and family heritage all led her to believe she had NA ancestry (which she does), and doesn't at all talk about actually "being NA"
    Maybe I'm unclear, but wasn't her family "lore" saying that there was one marriage involving a NA and a relative of her's some 10-20 generations previous?

  6. #104
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    This is not support that she "continues claiming to be Native American", as you stated in post #97.

    Now you're saying that she "has claimed to be NA", which is a noticeable shift in the language you previously used of "continues to claim". But again, she has apologized and explained the reasoning behind it - reasoning which, together with the fact that she was ready to take the DNA test, refutes your claim that she did it fraudulently.
    Hey - all credit is mine. I pointed it out first in #91.

  7. #105
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Maybe I'm unclear, but wasn't her family "lore" saying that there was one marriage involving a NA and a relative of her's some 10-20 generations previous?
    And does that make her Native American? If so, why?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  8. #106
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Maybe I'm unclear, but wasn't her family "lore" saying that there was one marriage involving a NA and a relative of her's some 10-20 generations previous?
    I don't know about the specific number of generations, but the DNA report indicates it was recent in the range of 6-10: "The report also said that the long segment on Chromosome 10 indicated that the DNA came from a relatively recent ancestor." LINK
    The % of NA DNA is unfortunately not a perfect indicator of where/when that DNA comes from, since, as explained by the linked article, the distribution of DNA doesn't follow a simple 50/50 distribution from equal sides of one's ancestors and equally through the generations - some ancestors might contribute more to the DNA profile than others.

    But I'm not sure how that's relevant the OP's argument that her past claims were made fraudulently, which remains rebutted until the rebuttal is addressed.

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  10. #107
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    And does that make her Native American? If so, why?
    Assuming it was 1 "marriage" 10-20 generations back it would be pretty far fetched to claim that one NA ancestor could give cause to call yourself NA.

    ---------- Post added at 10:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:56 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    But I'm not sure how that's relevant the OP's argument that her past claims were made fraudulently, which remains rebutted until the rebuttal is addressed.
    She obviously is misrepresenting herself, but does if rise to fraud?

    https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Fraud

    "A false representation of a matter of fact—whether by words or by conduct, by false or misleading allegations, or by concealment of what should have been disclosed—that deceives and is intended to deceive another so that the individual will act upon it to her or his legal injury.

    Fraud is commonly understood as dishonesty calculated for advantage. A person who is dishonest may be called a fraud. In the U.S. legal system, fraud is a specific offense with certain features.@

    So a person being dishonest can be called a fraud. Seems to fit.

    ---------- Post added at 10:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:01 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    I don't know about the specific number of generations, but the DNA report indicates it was recent in the range of 6-10:
    I can't imagine if I had one Chinese relative ten generations back calling myself Chinese. There is just no innocent reason to do so.

  11. #108
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    She obviously is misrepresenting herself, but does it rise to fraud?
    I have supported that it doesn't, going by definition of fraud I mentioned previously: "intentionally misleading for personal gain". I don't think the legal definition of fraud applies here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    So a person being dishonest can be called a fraud. Seems to fit.
    Again, since there's no proof that she did so intentionally and for personal gain, neither term fits.

    ---------- Post added at 01:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:30 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    I can't imagine if I had one Chinese relative ten generations back calling myself Chinese. There is just no innocent reason to do so.
    Your inability to understand someone's motivation for doing something is not proof that they did it with intent to deceive for personal gain.

  12. #109
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post

    Again, since there's no proof that she did so intentionally....
    Oh please, even by your version of events:

    "ONE relative TEN generations back"?

    And you want to say this makes sense?

    Lets just change the definition of "fraud/misleading/whatever..." so she was an upright, honest, doing what anyone in her shoes would do kinda person ONLY because we like her politics?

    Changing definitions of words is all the rage these days, why not this too?...….

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  14. #110
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Oh please, even by your version of events:

    "ONE relative TEN generations back"?

    And you want to say this makes sense?

    Lets just change the definition of "fraud/misleading/whatever..." so she was an upright, honest, doing what anyone in her shoes would do kinda person ONLY because we like her politics?

    Changing definitions of words is all the rage these days, why not this too?....
    It's unclear what these statements have to do with the fact that it hasn't been demonstrated that her past claims to be NA were made intentionally to mislead for her own personal gain. Would you care to elaborate?

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  16. #111
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    It's unclear what these statements have to do with the fact that it hasn't been demonstrated that her past claims to be NA were made intentionally to mislead for her own personal gain. Would you care to elaborate?
    I never mentioned personal gain.

    If your family had one relative of a particular race, 10'ish generations back and no others, would you try to identify as that race?

    It's a funny argument to support. Why not just say "made a mistake" and move on?
    Why does it need to be justified instead?

    If Bill had just said "I did have sex with that woman" or if the Donald just screwed Stormy and didn't pay her off, who would really have cared?

    A little honesty can go a long way, especially toward credibility. It was a stupid thing to claim, but not worthy of disqualifying one for public office, why make it a bigger controversy by trying to support it?
    She needs to get past this to move on and people supporting her bogus claim is not helping her cause. She has retracted it after all....

  17. #112
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post

    If your family had one relative of a particular race, 10'ish generations back and no others, would you try to identify as that race?
    Possibly.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  18. #113
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Possibly.
    Funny, but I'll take it...

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  20. #114
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    I never mentioned personal gain.
    Personal gain is inherent to the charge of fraud claimed by the OP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    If your family had one relative of a particular race, 10'ish generations back and no others, would you try to identify as that race?
    I won't pretend to fully understand or empathize with her family/cultural/life experience, but I believe there could be scenarios where that might seem like a reasonable thing to do without intending to deceive for personal gain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    It's a funny argument to support. Why not just say "made a mistake" and move on? Why does it need to be justified instead?
    I'm not supporting or justifying anything, simply pointing out that the charge of fraud has not been supported.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    A little honesty can go a long way, especially toward credibility. It was a stupid thing to claim, but not worthy of disqualifying one for public office, why make it a bigger controversy by trying to support it?
    Again, it's not about supporting it, but assessing whether the claim of fraud/deception has met its burden of proof, and whether we can reasonably conclude there was any. So far it appears not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    She needs to get past this to move on and people supporting her bogus claim is not helping her cause. She has retracted it after all....
    She and her supporters have moved on - she has been posting videos about her positions/platform for some time now - topics which have actual political value to discuss. If you take a look at the chatter on YT, for example, it's those still criticizing her for it who have failed to move on. It's a petty and fallacious criticism which doesn't address her political views in any rational sense.

  21. #115
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    Personal gain is inherent to the charge of fraud claimed by the OP.
    Oh, then let us review the Op:
    " Since at least 1984, Elizabeth Warren has claimed to be Cherokee Indian (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...echniques.html)

    Her DNA test now says that she is between 1/64th and 1/1,024th Native American (at most 1.56% and maybe as low as .001%), which she claims is proof that she is, indeed, Cherokee. Her claim is rejected by the Cherokeey Nation (https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...=.6bf5c777c172)

    I think it is pretty clear that Warren is, at best, 99% Fraud. "

    Says nothing about personal gain. Just whether EW can rightly or reasonably claim NA status.

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fraud
    "Definition of fraud
    1
    a
    : deceit, trickery
    specifically : intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal right
    was accused of credit card fraud
    b
    : an act of deceiving or misrepresenting : trick
    automobile insurance frauds
    2
    a
    : a person who is not what he or she pretends to be : impostor
    He claimed to be a licensed psychologist, but he turned out to be a fraud.
    also : one who defrauds : cheat
    b
    : one that is not what it seems or is represented to be
    The UFO picture was proved to be a fraud."

    So, 1b and 2a directly apply. So no to mandatory personal gain necessarily to be a fraud.

    One relative of a different race, 10-20 generations back in your ancestry just does not make you that race. After all, the relative in question (in her families "lore") could have been by an aunt or uncle and her only connection would be by marriage not blood.

    It just makes no sense to claim NA staus on Gov't forms based on non specific "lore".

    In a somewhat similar case, Rachel Dolezal's claims of being black were later refuted by her parents:
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-di...-she-was-black

    "Born to white parents in Montana, Dolezal has reportedly long been fascinated with black culture. Her family’s ancestry, however, is largely German and Czech, her parents say."
    "In interviews with the Washington Post, Dolezal's adopted brothers confirmed that she is white. Ezra, who identifies as "25 percent black," said Dolezal's charade could be construed as "highly racist."

  22. #116
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    You're first two links don't seem to be working. Is that one big quote? From which source?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    You're first two links don't seem to be working. Is that one big quote? From which source?


    1st link is the definition of fraud from merriam-webster online dictionary.

    and as I stated:
    "So, 1b and 2a directly apply. So no to mandatory personal gain necessarily to be a fraud."

    One relative of a different race, 10-20 generations back in your ancestry just does not make you that race. After all, the relative in question (in her families "lore") could have been by an aunt or uncle and her only connection would be by marriage not blood.
    It just makes no sense to claim NA status on Gov't forms based on non specific "lore".

    Rachel Dolezal's claim of black heritage is similarly ridiculous, though she paid a price for that claim when found out.

    Hopefully this was more clear for you. Both links still work for me??

  24. #118
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    No, the other first two links from the daily mail and wapo.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  25. #119
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    No, the other first two links from the daily mail and wapo.
    Those were part of the original Op. I copied and pasted the whole Op.
    Those links are not mine.


    But to my points in that post:
    1. the Op does not speak of personal gain from the alleged fraud
    2. the definition of fraud need not necessarily include personal gain
    3. of that definition (from Westers), 1b & 2a directly apply here. So no to mandatory personal gain to be a fraud.



    One relative of a different race, 10-20 generations back in your ancestry just does not make you that race. After all, the relative in question (in her families "lore") could have been by an aunt or uncle and her only connection would be by marriage not blood.

    It just makes no sense to claim NA staus on Gov't forms based on non specific "lore".

    In a somewhat similar case, Rachel Dolezal's claims of being black were later refuted by her parents:
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-di...-she-was-black

    "Born to white parents in Montana, Dolezal has reportedly long been fascinated with black culture. Her family’s ancestry, however, is largely German and Czech, her parents say."
    "In interviews with the Washington Post, Dolezal's adopted brothers confirmed that she is white. Ezra, who identifies as "25 percent black," said Dolezal's charade could be construed as "highly racist."

  26. #120
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    But to my points in that post:
    1. the Op does not speak of personal gain from the alleged fraud
    2. the definition of fraud need not necessarily include personal gain
    3. of that definition (from Westers), 1b & 2a directly apply here. So no to mandatory personal gain to be a fraud.
    I'm sorry, I may have missed something - even lacking the personal gain angle, where was it supported that her claims were made with the intent to deceive? You keep claiming it's fraud and whatnot, but all that's been supported is that she made claims which later turned out to be only partly true. That doesn't automatically make it fraud. Her explanation of why she made those claims (NA ancestry and heritage) as well as the readiness to take the DNA test support the case that it wasn't fraud, as I've repeatedly pointed out but nobody has addressed.

    Further, since you're arguing that the discussion shouldn't be about whether she did it for personal gain, does that mean you accept that she didn't do it for personal gain? Please confirm.
    In any case, the definitions & examples you provided all clearly involve deception with the goal of personal gain. That's also what everyone still criticizing her for it claims - that she did it to further her career.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    It just makes no sense to claim NA staus on Gov't forms based on non specific "lore".
    Again, your inability to understand someone's motivation for doing something is not proof that they did it with intent to deceive for personal gain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    In a somewhat similar case, Rachel Dolezal's claims of being black were later refuted by her parents
    This is an interesting comparison. It would be useful for you to the ways in which these cases are similar, and in which ways they differ, since I believe there are some key differences.

 

 
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