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  1. #1
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    Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Since at least 1984, Elizabeth Warren has claimed to be Cherokee Indian (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...echniques.html)

    Her DNA test now says that she is between 1/64th and 1/1,024th Native American (at most 1.56% and maybe as low as .001%), which she claims is proof that she is, indeed, Cherokee. Her claim is rejected by the Cherokeey Nation (https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...=.6bf5c777c172)

    I think it is pretty clear that Warren is, at best, 99% Fraud.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  2. #2
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Looks like your WaPo article is behind a wall, could you post it?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  3. #3
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Looks like your WaPo article is behind a wall, could you post it?
    Doesn't appear to be behind a pay wall at all. Here is the full text though:

    Why the Cherokee Nation’s rebuke of Elizabeth Warren matters

    Sen. Elizabeth Warren’s decision to release a DNA test verifying a claim to (very distant) Native American heritage was always a strategy of necessity rather than choice. This claim dogged Warren in her first Senate campaign in 2012, and regardless of the appropriateness of President Trump’s “Pocahontas” attacks on her, it very much threatens to be a liability if the Massachusetts Democrat runs for president in 2020.

    Now the gambit seems to have backfired with some prominent Native Americans — most notably the Cherokee Nation. And that group’s response is particularly important when you consider this: Six years ago, it gave Warren a pass.

    The Cherokee Nation’s secretary of state, Chuck Hoskin Jr., released a blistering statement Monday in response to the test showing Warren was between 1/64th and 1/1,024th Native American:

    “A DNA test is useless to determine tribal citizenship. Current DNA tests do not even distinguish whether a person’s ancestors were indigenous to North or South America. Sovereign tribal nations set their own legal requirements for citizenship, and while DNA tests can be used to determine lineage, such as paternity to an individual, it is not evidence for tribal affiliation. Using a DNA test to lay claim to any connection to the Cherokee Nation or any tribal nation, even vaguely, is inappropriate and wrong. It makes a mockery out of DNA tests and its legitimate uses while also dishonoring legitimate tribal governments and their citizens, whose ancestors are well documented and whose heritage is proven. Senator Warren is undermining tribal interests with her continued claims of tribal heritage.”


    Trump played up the statement in a tweet Tuesday morning:

    @realDonaldTrump
    Thank you to the Cherokee Nation for revealing that Elizabeth Warren, sometimes referred to as Pocahontas, is a complete and total Fraud!

    However you feel about Trump’s rhetoric or Warren’s claims, the rebuke is a significant political moment. This is the very nation to which Warren claims a connection saying that she is “undermining tribal interests with her continued claims of tribal heritage.” They’re effectively saying her claims and efforts to prove her heritage are no longer helpful and even harmful. Individual Native Americans have denounced Warren before; now the Cherokee Nation has taken a pretty firm stand against her, thanks to the DNA test.

    And just as important as the tone of the statement is its trajectory — something of a reversal of course for the Nation, which back in 2012 declined to criticize Warren and even defended her.

    In an interview at the time, Cherokee Nation Principal Chief Bill John Baker said of the controversy that Warren “never claimed to be a member of the Cherokee Nation” and only claimed native ancestors. “I wish every congressman and senator in the U.S. had a kinship or felt a kinship to the Cherokee Nation,” Baker said. Baker was also often cited by Warren’s supporters, given his own limited native Cherokee ancestry. He is 1/32nd Cherokee.


    The Cherokee Nation otherwise didn’t weigh in on Warren’s claim.

    The nation did rebuke one candidate in that 2012 race, but it was then-Sen. Scott Brown (R-Mass.) rather than Warren. After Brown staffers and supporters were caught on camera making war whoop chants and doing the tomahawk chop, Baker took issue with Brown’s lackluster response.

    “The Cherokee Nation is disappointed in and denounces the disrespectful actions of staffers and supporters of Massachusetts Sen. Scott Brown,” Baker said. “The use of stereotypical ‘war whoop chants’ and ‘tomahawk chops’ are offensive and downright racist. It is those types of actions that perpetuate negative stereotypes and continue to minimize and degrade all native peoples.”

    “. . . I call upon Sen. Brown to apologize for the offensive actions of his staff and their uneducated, unenlightened and racist portrayal of native peoples.”

    It’s one thing for Warren to lend some credence and proof to her ancestry claim; it’s another for that claim to be judged sufficient for Warren to use it in a professional setting. The Cherokee Nation’s statement and the reactions of other Native Americans suggest they’re unwilling to accept the latter.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
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  4. #4
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Where's the fraud?
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  5. #5
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    She is not a Cherokee. Her DNA test shows she likely has some native ancestry in her family. That is not enough to qualify you as a Cherokee, not even close.

    This is an example of the phenomena known as cultural appropriation and white privilege.

    As to fraud, that's a little harder to say in the specific sense. It's a family tradition, she likely believes in it, and a fraud is usually seen as an intent to deceive others.

    I don't think she is trying to fool anyone, I think she believes her family legend and made that part of her identity. But it really is reaching way to far and smacks of a rich white elite trying to claim kinship with a minority group without having to suffer any of the challenges faced by members of that group.

    I wrote a blog article about the phenomena a year ago of "white Indians" after I first encountered them on facebook.
    http://www.sigfriedtrent.com/2017/06...ne-encounters/
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  6. Likes Squatch347, snackboy, MindTrap028 liked this post
  7. #6
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    She is not a Cherokee. Her DNA test shows she likely has some native ancestry in her family. That is not enough to qualify you as a Cherokee, not even close.
    That would be enough to settle the challenge by Trump, no? I think so. He was going to provide her with the kit. That would make him a welcher, a fraud.

    I'll agree that the question of kinship is a complex one. One that might not even include DNA (for example in the case of adoption). He claim was of some ancestry and some questionable stories. I certainly haven't seen any official claim for any kind of benefit.

    Looks like she's an amalgam of ethnic traditions, this one with maybe a very small and, again, questionable in veracity and scope but still there and shouldn't be discounted out of hand. Just her coming from Oklahoma lends some credibility that something happened. Her other relatives involvement in native oppression also makes her story interesting and a part of that history.
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  8. #7
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    That would be enough to settle the challenge by Trump, no? I think so. He was going to provide her with the kit. That would make him a welcher, a fraud.
    I think it is well established that Trump is generally a welcher and a fraud. It's hard to keep track of all the incidences.

    But, in this case, his mocking her for calling herself an Indian is probably well deserved by Warren. The means he did it with was his usual childishness. But she does deserve criticism for it.

    Looks like she's an amalgam of ethnic traditions, this one with maybe a very small and, again, questionable in veracity and scope but still there and shouldn't be discounted out of hand. Just her coming from Oklahoma lends some credibility that something happened. Her other relatives involvement in native oppression also makes her story interesting and a part of that history.
    I think she has next to no credibility on this. She is for all intents and purposes a privileged white woman with no meaningful tie to native culture other than a vague family history that at some point, someone married an Indian. I have two full blooded native relatives alive today, that doesn't make me a native american in any respect.

    There is no need to make excuses for her, it only encourages bad behavior. You can still support her, this isn't some great crime against humanity, but it is rather embarrassing and perpetuates southern whites trying to speak on behalf of native Americans when they have jack all claim to being native americans.
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  9. #8
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Wait.. how is Trump the Welch and a fraud in connection. With this story? Seems like a political injection to cover for clearly bad behavior of others.
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  10. #9
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    But, in this case, his mocking her for calling herself an Indian is probably well deserved by Warren. The means he did it with was his usual childishness. But she does deserve criticism for it.
    Yes, she does deserve criticism, but not mockery at the expense of a race. He uses Pocahontas as a derogatory which is my view is not acceptable. He should come up with his own name, like DNA Lizzy. *chuckling*
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    I don't think it is at the expense of a race.. if she had said she was the world's best golfer he would have said " sure tiger woods". Any time one claims to be false something, people use a well known person from that group. It isn't racist, it is the form of the joke.
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  12. #11
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I don't think it is at the expense of a race.. if she had said she was the world's best golfer he would have said " sure tiger woods". Any time one claims to be false something, people use a well known person from that group. It isn't racist, it is the form of the joke.
    You're interpretation would suggest Trump is being sarcastic. I don't get that sense from him...but....I am okay with your spin / rationalization for now.
    Only what can happen does happen. ~Watchmen
    When the Standard is defined you will know how right or wrong you are.
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Not sarcasm? Do you think it was due to hatred for Indian he had some beef with the real pocahantis(sp)? I mean.. I don't think that is how racism works...
    I mean I wouldn't be really suprised to hear the native American population got offended by it.. but that is kinda the culture we live in now. I don't think that implies intent or malice though and just attribute it to over sensativity. Especially because he he actually defending there culture from appropriation.
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Not sarcasm? Do you think it was due to hatred for Indian he had some beef with the real pocahantis(sp)? I mean.. I don't think that is how racism works...
    I mean I wouldn't be really suprised to hear the native American population got offended by it.. but that is kinda the culture we live in now. I don't think that implies intent or malice though and just attribute it to over sensativity. Especially because he he actually defending there culture from appropriation.
    Trump has had wranglings and animus in the past with Tribes, particular those that own casinos. He even said (back in 1993 in an interview with Don Imus) : Well, I think I might have more Indian blood than a lot of the so-called Indians that are trying to open up the reservations.
    Only what can happen does happen. ~Watchmen
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  15. #14
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    That doesn't sound racist though. Maybe mean, maybe some truth to his intent.. but not racist.
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  16. #15
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    I think it is well established that Trump is generally a welcher and a fraud. It's hard to keep track of all the incidences.

    But, in this case, his mocking her for calling herself an Indian is probably well deserved by Warren. The means he did it with was his usual childishness. But she does deserve criticism for it.
    That's two different things - mocking and paying up. If we're to hold her to that high a bar then he should be too.

    ---------- Post added at 03:22 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:18 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by snackboy View Post
    Trump has had wranglings and animus in the past with Tribes, particular those that own casinos. He even said (back in 1993 in an interview with Don Imus) : Well, I think I might have more Indian blood than a lot of the so-called Indians that are trying to open up the reservations.
    Ha, really? Do you have a source for where he claimed to native american? That'd be great.

    ---------- Post added at 03:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:22 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Wait.. how is Trump the Welch and a fraud in connection. With this story? Seems like a political injection to cover for clearly bad behavior of others.
    Paying up on a bet is bad behavior.

    ---------- Post added at 03:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:24 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    I think she has next to no credibility on this. She is for all intents and purposes a privileged white woman with no meaningful tie to native culture other than a vague family history that at some point, someone married an Indian. I have two full blooded native relatives alive today, that doesn't make me a native american in any respect.

    There is no need to make excuses for her, it only encourages bad behavior. You can still support her, this isn't some great crime against humanity, but it is rather embarrassing and perpetuates southern whites trying to speak on behalf of native Americans when they have jack all claim to being native americans.
    I don't see where she has no credibility. She hasn't lied, right? It's just her case is extremely weak - that's if she's claiming an actual tribal affiliation not just some distant linkage. The tribe's responses have wavered from not discounting her claims to pointing out the error of just relying on DNA. That determining tribal affiliation is complex is not in dispute.

    Are you saying that her ancestor would not have been affiliated and should not be now?

    ---------- Post added at 03:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:32 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by snackboy View Post
    Yes, she does deserve criticism, but not mockery at the expense of a race. He uses Pocahontas as a derogatory which is my view is not acceptable. He should come up with his own name, like DNA Lizzy. *chuckling*
    Wouldn't it be "DNA Trump" after all it was he who was going to be walking around handing out the kits.

    [and just for the record I'd like to add here the parallels between this and Obama's birth certificate]
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  17. #16
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    @ cowboy, so your holding it against Trump that he isn't paying on the bet, when the DNA showed that no reasonable person would pay on the bet?
    I mean if I was him I would just pay 1/1000000 or whatever the ratio was.. because that would be hillariouse.

    It could stay in the news cycle for another week, and you know Warren is just praying this thing goes away.... Or maybe she does rain dances who knows.
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Ha, really? Do you have a source for where he claimed to native american? That'd be great.
    Sure. Source
    ---------- Post added at 03:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:22 AM ----------

    Wouldn't it be "DNA Trump" after all it was he who was going to be walking around handing out the kits.

    [and just for the record I'd like to add here the parallels between this and Obama's birth certificate]
    Interesting observation about the parallels. But that's his MO - latch on to something that his audience will believe and exploit it for all it is worth. When it's proven false, he simply says he never said that and /or blames someone else for the gossip.
    Only what can happen does happen. ~Watchmen
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    I don't think she is trying to fool anyone, I think she believes her family legend and made that part of her identity.
    As a little girl, she may have believed it. Even as a teenager. But as an adult, a university professor, and a US Senator, has she given up the claim? No. It would be real easy for her to say "I'm proud of the part of my heritage that is Cherokee, and I would have been proud to be part of that Nation, but I'm not." I think it would even be the politically smart thing to do at this point. But she hasn't done that. Instead, she appears to cling to the hope that people will see her as a minority.

    ---------- Post added at 10:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:05 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    That would make him a welcher, a fraud.
    Nope. Trump said he would pay $1M to charity if the DNA test showed Warren is "an indian". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1sdTgz3aUA

    Does 1% indian blood maker her a Cherokee? I don't think so, and neither does the Cherokee Nation.
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post

    Nope. Trump said he would pay $1M to charity if the DNA test showed Warren is "an indian". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1sdTgz3aUA

    Does 1% indian blood maker her a Cherokee? I don't think so, and neither does the Cherokee Nation.
    That's not what your source says:

    "(15 Oct 2018) Sen. Elizabeth Warren on Monday released the results of a DNA analysis that she said indicated she has some Native American heritage, a direct rebuttal to President Donald Trump, who has long mocked her ancestral claims and repeatedly referred to her as "Pocahontas."
    The Massachusetts Democrat and potential 2020 presidential contender challenged Trump to make good on his pledge to donate $1 million to charity if she provided proof of Native American heritage, a moment that was caught on video.
    Trump falsely denied ever making the offer at a summer rally in Montana, where he said he would give a million dollars to charity, "paid for by Trump," if Warren takes the test "and it shows you're an Indian.""

    Welcher.
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  21. #20
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee or Fraud?

    https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/15/polit...ion/index.html
    https://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...even-though-he
    The two links above are stories reporting that trump denied his offer, and offering the quote "i never said that" as support for that claim.

    These seem to be doing a bit of shoddy journalism.
    This is a link to the video which they are referring
    https://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...even-though-he

    Trump is not responding to a clear question, and so his quote of "I never said that" is not a denial of the challenge he issued, but that she has met the challenge.
    In fact the statement he is responding to was "you said you would give 1mil dollars to charity".
    An in fact, trump did not say he would give 1mil to charity.. because that is only a partial quote.
    He said he would give 1mil to charity IF.....



    This is an example of the media twisting context, and also doing a piss poor job of asking pointed questions.
    It's pretty shoddy journalmalising (miss spelled on purpose).
    That is what you call "fake news" son.
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