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  1. #1
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    Ps. I lie you...or do i

    On October 30th, 2018, the White House Press Secretary stood on the podium in her official capacity:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah Sanders
    He got elected by an overwhelming majority of 63 million Americans who came out and supported him and wanted to see his policies enacted.
    We know that in fact, Candidate Trump received 62,984,828 votes. That's close to the 63 million Americans claim. Whereas, Candidate Clinton received 65,853,514 votes, about 2.8 million more votes than Candidate Trump.

    If we look at the statement, from a technical perspective, we would have to conclude it's a lie. The 63 million is not an overwhelming majority of the people that are eligible to vote or that actually voted. If anyone won the majority of the vote, it was Clinton. I suppose you could parse the statement out and say that the 62,984,828 votes is an overwhelming majority of 63 million Americans who came out, but that seems rather dubious and nonsensical.

    Trump did win an overwhelming majority of the Electoral College. But that doesn't comprise 63 million Americans. But I suspect if Sanders get pressed on the statement, she will say that's what she meant.

    So the question is: Did Sanders lie to the American people in her official capacity?
    Only what can happen does happen. ~Watchmen
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  2. #2
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    Re: Ps. I lie you...or do i

    While it may be technically false as stated, it probably doesn't pass muster as an intent to lie. Much less some sort of duty violation as an official capacity.
    If she simply omitted the words "of electoral college" then it would have been a true statement. .. maybe the principle of charity would tell is that is what she meant.
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  3. #3
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    Re: Ps. I lie you...or do i

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    While it may be technically false as stated, it probably doesn't pass muster as an intent to lie.
    Well, if she didn't intend to lie, then she perhaps she is just incompetent.

    Much less some sort of duty violation as an official capacity.
    I don't understand what you mean.

    If she simply omitted the words "of electoral college" then it would have been a true statement. .. maybe the principle of charity would tell is that is what she meant.
    Where did she say anything about the EC? Perhaps you mean "added" instead of "omitted"?
    Only what can happen does happen. ~Watchmen
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  4. #4
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    Re: Ps. I lie you...or do i

    Yea
    . Added sorry.

    What is that saying only ascrib to malice what you can't claim on ignorance. .. so yea, that was an error at her job.

    Just seems like very small potato's. Not sure of the significance of this specific instance of mistake.
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  5. #5
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    Re: Ps. I lie you...or do i

    Quote Originally Posted by snackboy View Post
    So the question is: Did Sanders lie to the American people in her official capacity?
    Her statement is false. Sanders has the sad task of repeating Trump's exaggerations, not unlike other White House Press Secretaries of past administrations. Though admittedly Trump probably has more exaggerations to repeat or spin than other presidents.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  6. #6
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    Re: Ps. I lie you...or do i

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Her statement is false. Sanders has the sad task of repeating Trump's exaggerations, not unlike other White House Press Secretaries of past administrations. Though admittedly Trump probably has more exaggerations to repeat or spin than other presidents.
    And Sanders, at the salary of $172k per year accepts that task happily. She's not a victim, but an accomplice in the exaggerations.

    You say her statement is false. But is it a lie? Is she a liar? My view is that false statements are lies and thus she is a liar.
    Only what can happen does happen. ~Watchmen
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  7. #7
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    Re: Ps. I lie you...or do i

    Quote Originally Posted by snackboy View Post
    My view is that false statements are lies and thus she is a liar.
    Okay, sure. Knowingly making a false statement makes one a liar. What of it?

    I know that this is a whataboutism, but aren't all politicians and press spokesmen liars to a greater or lesser extent? It is a given. Expecting anything else is irrational based on a long history of lying politicians, including presidents. And yes, including Obama. So I don't much care if Trump is a liar, or Sanders repeats his lies. Do you care that CNN, MSNBC, NPR essentially lie by selecting and slanting news stories critical of conservatives and republicans? I'll bet not.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  8. #8
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    Re: Ps. I lie you...or do i

    Quote Originally Posted by EVEN
    Okay, sure. Knowingly making a false statement makes one a liar. What of it?
    I really don't see this as necessarily a lie.
    I mean, trump did win. It seems like a mis-statement of the nature of that win, but no so far off that we should conclude lying or dereliction of duty or some other thing.

    That said, what she said was in fact false as it is stated, but we shouldn't accept that stuff. Sure the left are going to be hypocritical by getting upset about this small thing, vs real issues like media bias/lies/fake news.
    I don't see how we have any more reaction to say, yea..that was false, but no so far from the truth as to be of significant concern. Next issue please.
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  9. #9
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    Re: Ps. I lie you...or do i

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Okay, sure. Knowingly making a false statement makes one a liar. What of it?

    I know that this is a whataboutism, but aren't all politicians and press spokesmen liars to a greater or lesser extent? It is a given. Expecting anything else is irrational based on a long history of lying politicians, including presidents. And yes, including Obama. So I don't much care if Trump is a liar, or Sanders repeats his lies. Do you care that CNN, MSNBC, NPR essentially lie by selecting and slanting news stories critical of conservatives and republicans? I'll bet not.
    Editorial selection is not the same thing as lying. All media outlets have limited resources and tend to focus on stories which will generate revenue.

    But to the larger point: Isn't the Administration peddling Fake News, the very thing they complain about, when they consciously lie?
    Only what can happen does happen. ~Watchmen
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  10. #10
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    Re: Ps. I lie you...or do i

    Quote Originally Posted by snackboy View Post
    Isn't the Administration peddling Fake News, the very thing they complain about, when they consciously lie?
    Yes. So what?

    Hyping and exaggerating the significance of relatively minor stories to bash conservatives and republicans while ignoring other stories to avoid hurting liberal causes and candidates IS a form of fake news. It is lying about what is important. But you donít mind that, do you? If you donít care about your politicians and their allies in the media lying to the public, why should I care that Trump and his press secretary lie?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  11. #11
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    Re: Ps. I lie you...or do i

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Yes. So what?

    Hyping and exaggerating the significance of relatively minor stories to bash conservatives and republicans while ignoring other stories to avoid hurting liberal causes and candidates IS a form of fake news. It is lying about what is important.
    What is important to one person or group of people may not be important to another group. What criteria could be used to determine what's important?

    But you don’t mind that, do you?
    I don't watch cable news. And while I read CNN, I take it with the perspective of your point - that their coverage is tilted towards zealously exposing Trump for the flawed person that he is.

    If you don’t care about your politicians and their allies in the media lying to the public, why should I care that Trump and his press secretary lie?
    But I do care. If I am lied to I can't make the best possible decisions. But more importantly, if you accept that the White House lies, how do you know when they are telling the truth?
    Only what can happen does happen. ~Watchmen
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  12. #12
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    Re: Ps. I lie you...or do i

    Quote Originally Posted by snackboy View Post
    What is important to one person or group of people may not be important to another group. What criteria could be used to determine what's important?
    The criteria should include a non-partisan assessment of what is important for the public to know.

    Quote Originally Posted by snackboy View Post
    I don't watch cable news. And while I read CNN, I take it with the perspective of your point - that their coverage is tilted towards zealously exposing Trump for the flawed person that he is.
    No. Their coverage isn't just tilted against Trump. It is 100% for the liberal agenda, and seeks to destroy anyone or anything that stands in the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by snackboy View Post
    But I do care. If I am lied to I can't make the best possible decisions.
    I call BS. Your statement in the Elizabeth Warren thread that you believe Trump's calling her Pocahontas is "mockery at the expense of a race", rather than simple mockery of her claim, is an indication that you regularly bathe in the liberal kool-aid. You probably don't read any news analysis or editorials from the conservative side.

    Quote Originally Posted by snackboy View Post
    But more importantly, if you accept that the White House lies, how do you know when they are telling the truth?
    Because unlike the typical low-information liberal I stay informed by reading news and analysis from across the political spectrum. And I reject the idea that lies from the white house are more important or more egregious than lies from the liberal media or liberal congressmen.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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  14. #13
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    Re: Ps. I lie you...or do i

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    The criteria should include a non-partisan assessment of what is important for the public to know.
    What does that mean?
    No. Their coverage isn't just tilted against Trump. It is 100% for the liberal agenda, and seeks to destroy anyone or anything that stands in the way.
    Maybe. I don't really know because I don't watch it.

    I call BS. Your statement in the Elizabeth Warren thread that you believe Trump's calling her Pocahontas is "mockery at the expense of a race", rather than simple mockery of her claim, is an indication that you regularly bathe in the liberal kool-aid. You probably don't read any news analysis or editorials from the conservative side.
    Yeah, I did say that. But that doesn't mean my mind can't be changed or influenced. I no longer see the use of the term, in the way Trump is using it, as mockery or racism, but as sarcasm.

    Because unlike the typical low-information liberal I stay informed by reading news and analysis from across the political spectrum. And I reject the idea that lies from the white house are more important or more egregious than lies from the liberal media or liberal congressmen.
    Sure - a lie is lie. People that lie, no matter the source, can't be trusted. The White House peddles lies day in and day out.
    Only what can happen does happen. ~Watchmen
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  15. #14
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    Re: Ps. I lie you...or do i

    Quote Originally Posted by snackboy View Post
    Sure - a lie is lie. People that lie, no matter the source, can't be trusted. The White House peddles lies day in and day out.
    That is fair. I agree except when you single out the White House as some sort of special case. Politicians lie. Trump lies. The people who speak on his behalf lie. I don't know that the example in the OP is a great example of a lie, but sure, why not? However, I think the implication of this thread is that Trump's White House is an outlier when it comes to lies coming from politicians and/or the White House. Obama lied. He had the lie of the year while President according to Newsweek in regards to his promises over the ACA. Bush lied. Bush's dad lied. Do I have to even mention the lies which came out of the Clinton White House? Carter lied. Nixon lied. Ford lied. LBJ... oh boy did he lie. Do we not trust any of the above Presidents? Do we trust any politician, ever? I'd be fine if the answer is no. However, it is just hyperbole and smells of partisanship if we are going to treat the lies of some Presidents more harshly or with greater scrutiny than others. I do consider the substance of the lie important. I mean, the lie proposed in the OP is not particularly harmful. It is clearly a partisan statement. Ok. Now, LBJ's lie about Vietnam... his lie led to his re-election based on his intentional spreading of misinformation (covering up bad news) and seems a bit more mischievous. I use LBJ to put things into some historical context in a time where we tend to overreact to every sentence and every word of anyone who is celebrity. Lies didn't get invented by Trump and are basically a staple of every man and woman who has ever held elected office. Just something to keep in mind as we watch the hilarity that is Trump's presidency.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

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  17. #15
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    Re: Ps. I lie you...or do i

    She's full of ******** since the person she speaks for is also full of ********.

    Trump lies constantly, those doing his bidding lie along with him. His frequency is pretty well off the charts so to speak.

    But this particular lie is just bragging. It doesn't have any significant policy implications. It doesn't especially harm the American public. Its just an insecure administration trumpeting how great they think they are. It's largely meaningless drivel.

    The worst government lies are when the government lies about what it is doing or lies about what they know so the public supports them. So, the WMD stuff was a terrible kind of lie. Trump making **** up about Muslim terrorists hiding in the refugee caraban is pretty bad. But this, bleh, whatever.

    Anyone who puts any stock in anything Trump says is a fool. That goes for both his supporters and opponents. Any window it gives into his thinking is only temporary and ephemeral. What he actually does is the only thing worth paying attention to.
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  18. #16
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    Re: Ps. I lie you...or do i

    While I can agree with the age-old story of all politicians being evil liars and we can't trust them, Trump definitely is in a class of his own.
    There are just so many examples which, even if taken by themselves, make him by far and away the worst. His speech for the UN is one of them.
    The sheer volume of his and his cronies' intentional or inept dishonesty has in a real way become the norm, such that even something as humiliating as that speech seems not that bad when looking at the whole.
    Appealing to the lying politician adage in order to justify his constant, egregious, and just plain idiotic lies (they were laughing with him, duh) is truly an exercise in self-deception, and a sign that the problem of identity-politics has rotted away any chance of rational discourse from his supporters.

  19. #17
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    Re: Ps. I lie you...or do i

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    While I can agree with the age-old story of all politicians being evil liars and we can't trust them, Trump definitely is in a class of his own.
    There are just so many examples which, even if taken by themselves, make him by far and away the worst. His speech for the UN is one of them.
    The sheer volume of his and his cronies' intentional or inept dishonesty has in a real way become the norm, such that even something as humiliating as that speech seems not that bad when looking at the whole.
    Appealing to the lying politician adage in order to justify his constant, egregious, and just plain idiotic lies (they were laughing with him, duh) is truly an exercise in self-deception, and a sign that the problem of identity-politics has rotted away any chance of rational discourse from his supporters.
    1. You made the claim, that if someone lies then they are untrustworthy. You didn't add any qualifiers to that. So, I simply provided a list of Presidents who have lied. Do you disagree that everyone on that list is untrustworthy?
    2. I am not and have never been a "Trump supporter." I didn't vote for him. That does not mean I dislike all of his policies and/or policy proposals. I certainly enjoy his effect on progressives as it is pure comedy watching them implode. However, I, personally, have no rooting interest for him other than the rooting interest I have for every President to make this nation better.
    3. My point is that Trump isn't really in a league of his own. You could possibly point to the quantity of his lies and make that claim, but what I demonstrated is that the quality of his lies does not measure up to those from past Presidents (i.e. LBJ). Certainly, you can agree that merely lying a lot is less important than lying about truly serious matters, right? Let's be honest, as Sig noted, most of Trump's lies are of the braggadocio sort, I caught a fish this biiiiig!. Mostly harmless, kinda like Earth itself.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  20. #18
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    Re: Ps. I lie you...or do i

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    1. You made the claim, that if someone lies then they are untrustworthy. You didn't add any qualifiers to that. So, I simply provided a list of Presidents who have lied. Do you disagree that everyone on that list is untrustworthy?
    2. I am not and have never been a "Trump supporter." I didn't vote for him. That does not mean I dislike all of his policies and/or policy proposals. I certainly enjoy his effect on progressives as it is pure comedy watching them implode. However, I, personally, have no rooting interest for him other than the rooting interest I have for every President to make this nation better.
    3. My point is that Trump isn't really in a league of his own. You could possibly point to the quantity of his lies and make that claim, but what I demonstrated is that the quality of his lies does not measure up to those from past Presidents (i.e. LBJ). Certainly, you can agree that merely lying a lot is less important than lying about truly serious matters, right? Let's be honest, as Sig noted, most of Trump's lies are of the braggadocio sort, I caught a fish this biiiiig! Mostly harmless, kinda like Earth itself.
    It seems you've confused me for someone else, since I never made any statements in this thread regarding the trustworthiness of liars. My point was regarding what using the politician-liar adage indicates about the current political climate. Your #3 and repetition of the adage only illustrates my point further. Whether you do or don't support him, your appeal to past liars' misdeeds to try and lessen the or excuse impact his lies have on America is the issue. While I readily agree that there have been huge lies which have done harm in the past, the constant and unabated twisting of the truth which he employs has the potential to be just a harmful, if not more, considering his lies have been mostly just harmless bragging, and not the kind of big ambitious lies you've offered in comparison. Let's see what happens when he tries his hand at a doozie.
    In any case, I guess if you care more about sticking it to those pesky progressives than the humiliation Trump has brought on the nation, then I guess his lies are not a problem.

  21. #19
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    Re: Ps. I lie you...or do i

    @ future. .
    If you feel like conservatives are condoning or have become acceptable of the lies of Trump, you are wrong.
    We generally don't like a lot of what Trump says, and I would join you in saying it isn't helpful, that some of it are lies, that some are exaggerations. Etc.
    The push back you are sensing is our suspicion of the curious timing of liberals woke moment to gov lies.
    I object to this specific example because it seems to reflect more of a desire to criticize the Prez on any possible issue rather than real ones. Which steps with feet right into the conservative perseption that libs aren't really concerned about gov lying until it hurts the other side.

    That said, we are generally pleased that Trump is attacking the left and the media in a similar way to which conservatives have been attacked by the media and the left.
    We think he doesn't need to lie or exaggerate to do that effectively.
    To serve man.

  22. #20
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    Re: Ps. I lie you...or do i

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    If you feel like conservatives are condoning or have become acceptable of the lies of Trump, you are wrong.
    Then there should be no mention whatsoever of past presidents' lies.
    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    The push back you are sensing is our suspicion of the curious timing of liberals woke moment to gov lies.
    There have always been liberals who've pointed out gov's lies - there is no curious timing. If you sense curious timing resulting from an increase in the noise being made by liberals, that's in response to the increase in things to be noisy about. You're talking about the curious timing as if there's a status quo which has been maintained, and libs have suddenly decided to start complaining more. I'm sorry, but Trump has definitely not upheld the status quo which is appealed to in his defense.
    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    That said, we are generally pleased that Trump is attacking the left and the media in a similar way to which conservatives have been attacked by the media and the left.
    We think he doesn't need to lie or exaggerate to do that effectively.
    I guess if you care more about getting back at the media and the left for claimed unfair treatment of conservatives than the humiliation Trump has brought on the nation, then his lies are not a problem.

 

 
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