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  1. #1
    Owner / Senior Admin

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    ODN Update / Changes

    Hey guys, this is an important update about the status of ODN.

    My original intent (if you recall, from months and months ago) was to revamp ODN with new software and new debate systems. However, I've decided that I just don't have the energy or time to do this major overhaul. As a result, I do believe it is time to take ODN down for good. If it were free, I'd have no problem leaving it up for those who still frequent it. But I'm paying each month to keep it alive, and it's something I don't use, visit, or have interest in any longer. Instead of selling it, I plan to make a backup of that database (just in case I ever decided to do something with it down the road) as it would be nice to preserve all these discussions we've had over the years. I will then take the site offline and move the domain name over to a different server that for a while, will just have a splash page, maybe give a brief explanation (for those older members who visit it well after this announcement), and a link to a new project.

    NEW PROJECT

    That being said, I've started a new project, one that takes considerably less time and energy for me, but also one that takes considerably less server resources (making its cost next to nothing). I'll link to it once it is a little more fleshed out. It's essentially an aggregate site for sources about a particular event (current or historical) or topic that is frequently discussed in social media, but are used to set the discussion straight and shut down misleading or outright false statements and arguments. It's not a Wiki, it's not list of topical links. It's more like a Snopes site without some of the bias, but allows the inclusion of local events, as it is maintained by the community itself.

    The motivation behind this project stems from a discussion I was having with a couple people on NextDoor. It was regarding the problems that a halfway house was causing in a particular neighborhood. Some of the complaints were legit. But one of the biggest, the most focused criticism that a few people had about this halfway house, was about the person who was involved with the organization managing it. A lot of misleading and false statements were made about this person. I don't know the person personally, but what was claimed about him didn't correspond with available public records. It became clear that a smear campaign was underway, and facts didn't seem to matter.

    I participated in this discussion for quite some time, primarily asking for sources and facts, focusing on the Socratic Method instead of actually debating. What I would receive in return was hearsay or screenshots of other websites that made similar claims. What I wanted was the actual sources, such as public records. After not getting the proper sources by the opposition, I went to the County Courthouse and obtained them myself. What was actually on public record was quite different that what was being claimed. After pointing this out, and making these public records available to anyone who asked me, the thread created closed the thread, disallowing further discussion between neighbors. They re-opened it temporarily to post screenshots from another random website, didn't offer its source, but it was clear it was not official by any means, then they closed the thread again, thereby, controlling the dialog in an extremely biased, one-sided way.

    I received a lot of support from those following the thread's discussion. I decided that instead of having to post a source every once in a while, thus, spreading sources throughout the entire discussion, that it would be so much easier if there was one place where someone could go to review all the facts and sources related to the event and the person in question. No place existed. So I decided to create it.

    What this new site will be: A community driven, argument-less, holding site for relative sources and facts that are relevant to a social media discussion which tends to move fairly quickly and involves people of all backgrounds (few with proper critical thinking knowledge or an understanding on how to properly support an argument).

    It isn't a debate site. It's not a place to debate X issue, because X issue is already being discussed on Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, NextDoor, etc. It's not a place where someone can say "You don't understand Islam, go to this page to learn more." They may as well use any random site or just use Google. It's a place to merely send people to review the available sources and facts that are pertinent to that specific discussion IF that discussion has devolved into a feels > fact exchange. Each page will be dedicated to that particular issue.

    A forum will be set up for community members to ask for assistance, discuss technical issues, or best practices. It's doubtful that any sub-forum will be set up to debate a particular topic. Again, that discussion is already supposed to be taking place on social media or elsewhere. This is a repository of sources for the purposes of keeping the discussion on track with proper facts as well as to let the lurkers of that discussion decide for themselves by having access to the relevant news articles or public records (vs 2nd hand sites or blogs).

    Once I've completed the page for this particular issue involving the halfway house, and create an FAQ page, I'll consider the site "live" and link it.

    ODN STATUS


    I will probably keep ODN up in its current state until January 2019. I definitely won't take it down before then. This way, many of you can save your favorite posts or threads, or have time to get contact information from one another. The new project will have a new database and all members are welcome to join there once member accounts are enabled. It'd be nice to see your ODN name there for familiarity, but it certainly won't be required.

    I'll post more information about that site in the near future. Until then, carry on the good fight in the debate forums here at ODN. It's sad to see the site go, but it all good things really must come to an end, and it's ODN's time.
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
    Senior Administrator
    -------------------------

    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. - Thomas Jefferson




  2. #2
    Registered User

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    Re: ODN Update / Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    Hey guys, this is an important update about the status of ODN.

    My original intent (if you recall, from months and months ago) was to revamp ODN with new software and new debate systems. However, I've decided that I just don't have the energy or time to do this major overhaul. As a result, I do believe it is time to take ODN down for good. If it were free, I'd have no problem leaving it up for those who still frequent it. But I'm paying each month to keep it alive, and it's something I don't use, visit, or have interest in any longer. Instead of selling it, I plan to make a backup of that database (just in case I ever decided to do something with it down the road) as it would be nice to preserve all these discussions we've had over the years. I will then take the site offline and move the domain name over to a different server that for a while, will just have a splash page, maybe give a brief explanation (for those older members who visit it well after this announcement), and a link to a new project.

    NEW PROJECT

    That being said, I've started a new project, one that takes considerably less time and energy for me, but also one that takes considerably less server resources (making its cost next to nothing). I'll link to it once it is a little more fleshed out. It's essentially an aggregate site for sources about a particular event (current or historical) or topic that is frequently discussed in social media, but are used to set the discussion straight and shut down misleading or outright false statements and arguments. It's not a Wiki, it's not list of topical links. It's more like a Snopes site without some of the bias, but allows the inclusion of local events, as it is maintained by the community itself.

    The motivation behind this project stems from a discussion I was having with a couple people on NextDoor. It was regarding the problems that a halfway house was causing in a particular neighborhood. Some of the complaints were legit. But one of the biggest, the most focused criticism that a few people had about this halfway house, was about the person who was involved with the organization managing it. A lot of misleading and false statements were made about this person. I don't know the person personally, but what was claimed about him didn't correspond with available public records. It became clear that a smear campaign was underway, and facts didn't seem to matter.

    I participated in this discussion for quite some time, primarily asking for sources and facts, focusing on the Socratic Method instead of actually debating. What I would receive in return was hearsay or screenshots of other websites that made similar claims. What I wanted was the actual sources, such as public records. After not getting the proper sources by the opposition, I went to the County Courthouse and obtained them myself. What was actually on public record was quite different that what was being claimed. After pointing this out, and making these public records available to anyone who asked me, the thread created closed the thread, disallowing further discussion between neighbors. They re-opened it temporarily to post screenshots from another random website, didn't offer its source, but it was clear it was not official by any means, then they closed the thread again, thereby, controlling the dialog in an extremely biased, one-sided way.

    I received a lot of support from those following the thread's discussion. I decided that instead of having to post a source every once in a while, thus, spreading sources throughout the entire discussion, that it would be so much easier if there was one place where someone could go to review all the facts and sources related to the event and the person in question. No place existed. So I decided to create it.

    What this new site will be: A community driven, argument-less, holding site for relative sources and facts that are relevant to a social media discussion which tends to move fairly quickly and involves people of all backgrounds (few with proper critical thinking knowledge or an understanding on how to properly support an argument).

    It isn't a debate site. It's not a place to debate X issue, because X issue is already being discussed on Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, NextDoor, etc. It's not a place where someone can say "You don't understand Islam, go to this page to learn more." They may as well use any random site or just use Google. It's a place to merely send people to review the available sources and facts that are pertinent to that specific discussion IF that discussion has devolved into a feels > fact exchange. Each page will be dedicated to that particular issue.

    A forum will be set up for community members to ask for assistance, discuss technical issues, or best practices. It's doubtful that any sub-forum will be set up to debate a particular topic. Again, that discussion is already supposed to be taking place on social media or elsewhere. This is a repository of sources for the purposes of keeping the discussion on track with proper facts as well as to let the lurkers of that discussion decide for themselves by having access to the relevant news articles or public records (vs 2nd hand sites or blogs).

    Once I've completed the page for this particular issue involving the halfway house, and create an FAQ page, I'll consider the site "live" and link it.

    ODN STATUS


    I will probably keep ODN up in its current state until January 2019. I definitely won't take it down before then. This way, many of you can save your favorite posts or threads, or have time to get contact information from one another. The new project will have a new database and all members are welcome to join there once member accounts are enabled. It'd be nice to see your ODN name there for familiarity, but it certainly won't be required.

    I'll post more information about that site in the near future. Until then, carry on the good fight in the debate forums here at ODN. It's sad to see the site go, but it all good things really must come to an end, and it's ODN's time.
    Well, again I will say I am sorry to see ODN go, but understand your position.

    You gave me a place to voice my opinion (that had to be supported of course) and learn from others in a cordial manner. Shouting matches a person can not learn from. I always thought the civility of this site was one of it's great strengths!

    I appreciate your personal time in your posts as well as your financial contribution for this site. I learned more here than I ever expected and I thank you for the opportunity!

    I wish you well on your future endeavors!
    Belthazor


    ps if anyone knows of another debate site that I might try, please post the address on this Op or PM me
    thank you
    B

  3. #3
    ODN Community Regular

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    Re: ODN Update / Changes

    I have reviews for some of the debate sites that are out there on http://www.debatedojo.com/ (my debate culture blog which I don't post on very often)

    ---------- Post added at 11:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:47 PM ----------

    Best wishes on the new project Apok
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  4. #4
    Owner / Senior Admin

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    Re: ODN Update / Changes

    Thanks guys.

    But Sig, were you drunk when you made that blog entry on your site? See dat spelling.
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
    Senior Administrator
    -------------------------

    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. - Thomas Jefferson




  5. #5
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    Re: ODN Update / Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    Thanks guys.

    But Sig, were you drunk when you made that blog entry on your site? See dat spelling.
    When my spelling checker DCs I think that everything is looking great when in fact it just isn't checking. :( My spelling is fundamentally bad, only technology saves me and when it fails, I fail. I'll go and check on that.

    Lol... found what you were talking about... that's me not following my usual procedure to edit my work Bad Sig!
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  6. #6
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    Re: ODN Update / Changes

    I remember when this site used to be the world to me. I lost interest in debating a long time ago though and havent posted in probably 3 years when me and Sig quit together. LOL. Still, Im sad to see it go.
    I will no longer be replying to any post from a Liberal going forward. I will continue, as normal, to discuss topics and engage in intellectual exchanges with non-leftist

  7. #7
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    Re: ODN Update / Changes

    Can I have the domain name?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  8. #8
    ODN's Crotchety Old Man

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    Re: ODN Update / Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Can I have the domain name?
    Dude. You just asked a guy who's been paying to keep this site updated and online for over 15 years if you can have the name. Ouch.

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  10. #9
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    Re: ODN Update / Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Dude. You just asked a guy who's been paying to keep this site updated and online for over 15 years if you can have the name. Ouch.
    So?

    ---------- Post added at 12:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:25 PM ----------

    Can I have any of the trademarks too? i.e. "The Forge of Reason"
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  11. #10
    ODN's Crotchety Old Man

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    Re: ODN Update / Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    It's sad to see the site go, but it all good things really must come to an end, and it's ODN's time.
    It's been a roller coaster ride for sure. A lot has changed over the last 15 years. I barely have any interest in debating anymore. But, for me, significance of the role ODN played in in the area of learning and thinking over those years simply cannot be overstated.

    It was truly a fantastic experiment, Jeremy; be proud of what you made and what this place once was.

    Thanks so much for everything. I wish you all the best in all your future endeavors.

  12. #11
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    Re: ODN Update / Changes

    Completely second what Dio said. This has been a place that has made a real impact on my life and thinking. Both in its exposure to extremely intelligent people I agree with and its exposure to extremely intelligent people I didn't agree with.

    I really appreciated how it showed me that on a position there can be both hollow propagandists looking to spew an opinion out and someone with a thoughtfully reflected position. And that you can't, nor shouldn't approach them the same. (I only wish I had gotten better at ignoring the former and engaging the latter).

    It's longevity was influential in that it showed me people growing and changing. Almost always for the better, but sometimes for the worse. Seeing that has profoundly affected my thinking about positions and policies, something I would never have thought connected before being here.

    Dio is spot on that you should be completely proud of what you built and the lives you influenced. To expand that, Dio, you too (as well as a long list of others like Castle, Fruit and Nut, Ibelsd, etc, etc) should be proud of your contribution to the intellectual climate here. It was that cadre that made it unique from all other debate sites on the internet, and I really appreciate what you've put forward.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


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  14. #12
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    Re: ODN Update / Changes

    Question to opponent.
    What about just all meeting on the FB page?

    Maybe include that info in final link?
    To serve man.

  15. Thanks Squatch347 thanked for this post
  16. #13
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    Re: ODN Update / Changes

    Apok, I agree with what Dio and Squatch said. Ive been here under a few names and have suffered a few bans for basically being a troll at various times. However, this site played a huge role in helping me develop my reasoning skills and learning how to engage people in a logical and reasoned way and that means a lot to me. While I have lost all interest in formal debate, there is no denying the huge impact ODN played in my life and I am said to see it go. I wish I could see all the old timers one more time. We had a great community here.
    I will no longer be replying to any post from a Liberal going forward. I will continue, as normal, to discuss topics and engage in intellectual exchanges with non-leftist

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  18. #14
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    Re: ODN Update / Changes

    My sincere thanks to Apok for the years of good times and lessons learned. I've never reached out prior to even acknowledge the work you have done. However, this site has always provided a positive in my life and while sad it has to go, I think you have a lot to be proud for in terms of what this community has accomplished. Again. So long and thanks for all the fish.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

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  20. #15
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    Re: ODN Update / Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    Ive been here under a few names and have suffered a few bans for basically being a troll at various times.
    I knew it!
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________

    I echo everyone's thanks to Apok for creating this forum for us to debate. But I have to say, that it is really the people here and their commitment to the truth, or at least their version of it, that keep this site alive. I've been to many other debate sites and participated in other debates and what makes this site different from others is the commitment the old-timers providing a set of viewpoints and sticking to them. So we know who all the far-right wingers are and those that represent the left; and those who are religious and those who aren't. And those viewpoints haven't changed and people having been remarkably consistent as I check in at various points in time.

    What I find most sad is that not much ever gets concluded and so whilst the debates are interesting to read and participate in there are never really many conclusions. The use of challenges is quite abusive and some of the bans I've seen are unnecessary leading to people leaving and again, nothing concluded. So in many ways, this is really a site for venting, and at best learning another point of view, rather than being one where a final answer can be given on any topic.

    That's not to say that this should have been a goal of the site but it does seem odd that the best we can do is to agree to disagree.

    Anyway, thanks to all for the last couple of decades of chatting. I have to say that learning the different points of view have been more enlightening to me than having to go through the same debates with live humans!

    Apok: You created this site around the same time I was developing some other projects and as I saw you bow out of this over the years and saw your career go into other directions. As a fellow technologist, I applaud your dedication and commitment and time and cash that you put into this project. I don't know the technology or hosting costs but if you want to share it, it's possible that we can keep this whole thing alive via some other means.

 

 

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