It isn't Racist to...

[Sigfried]

It isn't racist to describe the city of Baltimore as a “disgusting, rat and rodent infested mess”.
https://apnews.com/3d49bd171f9b4245b3d24e62a77ad35f

I agree it is not racist on its face, though it is also how I'd describe the white house at the moment.

[Squatch347]

Even, not sure you saw this, but Cowboy asked you to support with examples this language: "And it goes for someone who comes here and is way overly critical of our country..."

[evensaul]

Even, not sure you saw this, but Cowboy asked you to support with examples this language: "And it goes for someone who comes here and is way overly critical of our country..."

Whether they are overly critical is a matter of opinion. What does it matter whether Cowboy agrees or, much more likely, disagrees? Not at all. What matters is that the opinion regarding their love or hatred of this country, rather than racism, is the basis for saying "Leave!"

[CowboyX]

Whether they are overly critical is a matter of opinion. What does it matter whether Cowboy agrees or, much more likely, disagrees? Not at all. What matters is that the opinion regarding their love or hatred of this country, rather than racism, is the basis for saying "Leave!"

Yet you are criticizing Baltimore, a part of our country...leave.

[evensaul]

Right. Thanks for supporting my claim that it isn't racism to tell someone to leave.

[CowboyX]

Right. Thanks for supporting my claim that it isn't racism to tell someone to leave.

Any time.

We've also established with your lack of support that someone being "overly critical" means they hate this country (and the converse).

[Squatch347]

We've also established with your lack of support that someone being "overly critical" means they hate this country (and the converse).

Not exactly. What was established was that Even's position that it is "legitimate to tell someone who is overly critical to leave" was simply his opinion, not an actual position or valid defense.

[mican333]

Right. Thanks for supporting my claim that it isn't racism to tell someone to leave.

But then who said it was racist to say that?

It's not the statement "if you don't like it here, you can leave" that is allegedly racist but "Go back to your own country".

[evensaul]

But then who said it was racist to say that?

It's not the statement "if you don't like it here, you can leave" that is allegedly racist but "Go back to your own country".

And how is that substantively different if the speaker believes the person came from another country?

[mican333]

And how is that substantively different if the speaker believes the person came from another country?

One is an invitation to leave and the other is request that they leave.

"go back to your own country" pretty much says that they don't belong in this country. "If you're not happy, you can leave" does not say that.

[CowboyX]

Not exactly. What was established was that Even's position that it is "legitimate to tell someone who is overly critical to leave" was simply his opinion, not an actual position or valid defense.

Yeah, I'll take that. I don't think I know what he was even talking about it's such a rant.

I did ask what they were being overly critical about and he didn't answer.

I think I can conclude that means they aren't being any more critical than anyone else.

If it's not about race then it therefore must be some other kind of disagreement he has with them.

Such as?

[evensaul]

One is an invitation to leave and the other is request that they leave.

"go back to your own country" pretty much says that they don't belong in this country. "If you're not happy, you can leave" does not say that.

You're making distinctions without any real differences.

---------- Post added at 01:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:05 PM ----------

Not exactly. What was established was that Even's position that it is "legitimate to tell someone who is overly critical to leave" was simply his opinion, not an actual position or valid defense.

Well, not exactly. What I'm saying is that my opinion of what is "overly critical" doesn't depend on anyone else's opinion, much less their approval of my view. And if I think someone should "Leave!" or "Go back to where you came from!" based on what I perceive as their being overly critical of the United States, or even just by how they are attempting to change our country's institutions and culture, then telling them to do so is not inherently racist.

[mican333]

You're making distinctions without any real differences.

There's a distinct difference between informing someone that they can leave if they want and demanding that they leave.

And there's a distinct difference between telling someone that a different country is "their" country which is where they should go and not telling them that.

[evensaul]

There's a distinct difference between informing someone that they can leave if they want and demanding that they leave.

And there's a distinct difference between telling someone that a different country is "their" country which is where they should go and not telling them that.

You're splitting hairs. And neither side of the hairs automatically involve racism.

[mican333]

You're splitting hairs.

Because there's no real difference between a statement that says that a person's country is a different one than the US and a statement that doesn't say that?

And neither side of the hairs automatically involve racism.

But one of them is often used as a racial verbal attack and has been recognized as such in numerous legal cases of racial discrimination in the workplace.

[evensaul]

Because there's no real difference between a statement that says that a person's country is a different one than the US and a statement that doesn't say that?

There is no functional difference. There are probably many other ways to say it. And they all boil down to "Get out!" or "Leave!"

But one of them is often used as a racial verbal attack and has been recognized as such in numerous legal cases of racial discrimination in the workplace.

Support this claim. And do it without conflating discrimination with racism.

[mican333]

There is no functional difference. There are probably many other ways to say it. And they all boil down to "Get out!" or "Leave!"

No they don't. In fact, I don't think the primary message of "love it leave it"/"If you don't like here, you can leave" is to get the person to leave but to get them to not criticize ("love") whatever it is about the country they are criticizing.

Support this claim. And do it without conflating discrimination with racism.

Telling a black American person to "go back to your country" is indeed racist - at least when leveled against an African American.

I'm sure you will agree that there can be no doubt that a person whose parents are both American and who was born in America is indeed an American and their skin color or what country their descendants immigrated from makes absolutely no difference. A black American is no less American than a white American.

So in that case, a white American telling a Black American to "go back to your country" is a racist statement. It is directly saying that the black person is not an American due to his African heritage and he belongs in Africa instead of the US so he doesn't belong in America because he's black.

So while it is possible to say "Go back to your country" in a non-racist way (for example you telling me to go back to Norway earlier was not racist since the purpose was clearly not to make an issue of my European heritage), whites telling black to "go back to your country", especially if the blacks are just as American as the whites is typically a racist statement. And sometimes whites do tell black just that so at least sometimes "go back to your country" is a racist statement.

You can challenge how often its used in the way that I described but you do agree that the particular usage I described is racist, right?

[evensaul]

You can challenge how often its used in the way that I described but you do agree that the particular usage I described is racist, right?

What definition of racism/racist are you using?

Here's the first one that comes up when I google racism:

rac·ism
/ˈrāˌsizəm/

noun
noun: racism
prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.
"a program to combat racism"
synonyms: racial discrimination, racialism, racial prejudice/bigotry, xenophobia, chauvinism, bigotry, bias, intolerance; More
the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
"theories of racism"
(emphasis mine)

Is that what you are using, or something else?

[mican333]

I'm not using a dictionary.

I'm using common sense. If one thinks that black people should not live in this country and therefore should "go back to Africa", they are holding a racist view.

Do you disagree with me about that?

[evensaul]

I'm not using a dictionary.

Right, because as a typical liberal you think "racism" means whatever you want it to mean, and will apply where and when you think it should. It doesn't, and won't. Not in this thread.

I'm using common sense.

No, common sense would say use the actual meaning of the word, the real definition, instead of what your leftist culture tells you it should mean.

If one thinks that black people should not live in this country and therefore should "go back to Africa", they are holding a racist view.

Do you disagree with me about that?

Doesn't it depend on the specifics of the situation? Doesn't it depend on whether the person saying that believes that all black people are inferior? For example, if a Nigerian immigrant comes here and rips off American taxpayers through medicaid fraud, would it be racist to say "Go back to Nigeria"? I don't think so.

Now I'm not saying there isn't any racism in this country. There is. But something isn't automatically racism just because the Left says so. And your blanket statement above is a perfect example.