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  1. #61
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Right, because as a typical liberal you think "racism" means whatever you want it to mean, and will apply where and when you think it should. It doesn't, and won't. Not in this thread.
    And as a typical conservative you think...blah blah blah...trolling conservatives...blah blah blah.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    No, common sense would say use the actual meaning of the word, the real definition, instead of what your leftist culture tells you it should mean.
    If you are saying that I am not using an accurate definition of "racism" please support that assertion.


    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Doesn't it depend on the specifics of the situation? Doesn't it depend on whether the person saying that believes that all black people are inferior? For example, if a Nigerian immigrant comes here and rips off American taxpayers through medicaid fraud, would it be racist to say "Go back to Nigeria"? I don't think so.
    Which doesn't address my scenario. I'm talking about a born white American telling a born black American "Go back to Africa" so bringing an immigrant into it is not addressing what I'm saying.


    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Now I'm not saying there isn't any racism in this country. There is. But something isn't automatically racism just because the Left says so. And your blanket statement above is a perfect example.
    But then you misstated my argument (it's not about immigrants but born Americans).

    So again, do you disagree that a White American telling a Black AMERICAN to "go back to Africa" is racist? If you don't take an oppositional position to the notion that it is racist, then this position stands as unchallenged.

  2. #62
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And as a typical conservative you think...blah blah blah...trolling conservatives...blah blah blah.
    blah blah blah is all you can offer because I threw a bulls-eye. I'll take the non-denial as confirmation.


    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    If you are saying that I am not using an accurate definition of "racism" please support that assertion.
    I gave you the definition. Maybe you missed it.


    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Which doesn't address my scenario. I'm talking about a born white American telling a born black American "Go back to Africa" so bringing an immigrant into it is not addressing what I'm saying.

    But then you misstated my argument (it's not about immigrants but born Americans).

    So again, do you disagree that a White American telling a Black AMERICAN to "go back to Africa" is racist?
    Not unless it includes a belief that all african americans are inferior. So I could make up a scenario where it is racism, and that do doubt happens, and a scenario where it isn't racism, which also no doubt happens.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  3. #63
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    blah blah blah is all you can offer because I threw a bulls-eye. I'll take the non-denial as confirmation.
    No, the blah blah indicates that the trollish statement is not worth responding to. I do not agree with it and would offer a support or retract challenge if I thought it was even worth responding to.

    So unless you are going to support that statement with something resembling evidence, it is rejected.


    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    I gave you the definition. Maybe you missed it.
    No. I saw it. But if you are going to say that what I provided does not correspond to that definition, you will need to support that assertion.


    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Not unless it includes a belief that all african americans are inferior. So I could make up a scenario where it is racism, and that do doubt happens, and a scenario where it isn't racism, which also no doubt happens.
    About the only reason one would want black people to leave the country is because they view them as inferior on some level.

  4. #64
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    About the only reason one would want black people to leave the country is because they view them as inferior on some level.
    Support this claim.

    In the mean time, I've got a question for you: If Joe were to say "Leave this country" to a white muslim, is he just being a bigot and not a racist? And if he says the same thing to a black muslim, does that make Joe a racist?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  5. #65
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Well, not exactly. What I'm saying is that my opinion of what is "overly critical" doesn't depend on anyone else's opinion, much less their approval of my view. And if I think someone should "Leave!" or "Go back to where you came from!" based on what I perceive as their being overly critical of the United States, or even just by how they are attempting to change our country's institutions and culture, then telling them to do so is not inherently racist.
    I'll accept that. It's sure anti-American and in opposition to our constitution, however.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  6. #66
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Support this claim.
    Okay.

    If one wants someone to leave the country, it's because they don't want them to be there any more. That means that they don't like that person. That means that they think that there is something wrong with the person. That means that they think the person is inferior on some level (for no one has a problem with someone who they think is great or at least equal in every way). Therefore the person views the target as inferior on some level.

    Also, go back to "your country" means that the person does not view the other person as a legitimate American and instead belongs to another country and therefore view them as not as American as they are, which is likewise an indication of inferiority.

    So now I have fully supported that "Go back to your country" is a racist statement as defined by the dictionary (when it's said by a white to a black).


    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    In the mean time, I've got a question for you: If Joe were to say "Leave this country" to a white muslim, is he just being a bigot and not a racist? And if he says the same thing to a black muslim, does that make Joe a racist?
    The issue here is the statement "go back to your own country", not "leave this country". But I'll assume that's what you meant. And he's being a bigot. And if it's unknown if the offense is due to the race or the religion, then we don't know if he's a racist or a religious bigot or both.

    But assuming the issue is not religion (such as the person is definitely not known to be of a minority religion) then the statement would accurately be defined as racist.

  7. #67
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    If one wants someone to leave the country, it's because they don't want them to be there any more. That means that they don't like that person. That means that they think that there is something wrong with the person.
    It can't be because of they have inferior and/or dangerous beliefs separate and apart from their race?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Therefore the person views the target as inferior on some level.
    So "on some level" means it must be race based? Why? Again, it seems pretty clear that you're labeling discrimination you don't like as racism. They are not the same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But assuming the issue is not religion...
    Why assume that? The muslim just happens to be black, just as the other happened to be white. You're trying to turn my scenario on its head to apply a label of racism where no evidence of that exists.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    ...(such as the person is definitely not known to be of a minority religion) then the statement would accurately be defined as racist.
    "...defined as racist" using what definition? Your own?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  8. #68
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    It can't be because of they have inferior and/or dangerous beliefs separate and apart from their race?
    "Go back to your own country" indicates that they have qualities that are better suited for "their own country" than they do for the US. So if it's known that person's national origins is from a communist country and the person starts espousing communist ideal, THEN it is reasonable to conclude that "go back to your own country" is not necessarily based on race but ideology.

    So if the white person does not know that the black person is from a particular country that generally holds a particular ideology, then "go back to your country" is not based on ideology.

    So generally (or for all we know, every single time), the statement is not based on ideology.


    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    So "on some level" means it must be race based? Why? Again, it seems pretty clear that you're labeling discrimination you don't like as racism. They are not the same thing.
    Again, the instances where the reasoning for the statement is not racial is practically limited to the hypothetical. In reality, the statement (when delivered from white to black) is racial.


    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Why assume that? The muslim just happens to be black, just as the other happened to be white. You're trying to turn my scenario on its head to apply a label of racism where no evidence of that exists.
    No I directly addressed it. You're just pretending that I didn't. Here is my response AGAIN.

    And if it's unknown if the offense is due to the race or the religion, then we don't know if he's a racist or a religious bigot or both. Does that directly address your argument or not? Or are you just going to ignore it again?




    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    "...defined as racist" using what definition? Your own?
    No, by the definition you provided. Telling a black person to leave the country because he's black surely indicates that you find his race to be inferior to yours on some level.

    And to make sure that it's recognized that I am addressing your argument, if one is telling someone to leave the country because of their ideology or religion, then their bigotry is not racial in nature. But if one telling a black person to go back to his country and the reasoning is clearly not ideological or religious, then it's racist.

  9. #69
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    The term "monkeys" is not automatically racist. And labeling an African country as a "**** hole" or an American city as a rat infested mess are not racist either.

    A researcher has found recording of Ronald Reagan describing UN representatives from Africa as monkeys, when he said "To see those, those monkeys from those African countries—damn them, they’re still uncomfortable wearing shoes!” https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...-nixon/595102/ No doubt many people will label Reagan a racist because of his use of the word to describe Africans. But it is clear by the comment about shoes, that Reagan was making a criticism of the culture and lack of modern advances in the African countries and, yes, the representatives of those countries. It was not an racist remark about all black people everywhere, as a race. This is not much different from Trump describing some nations as "**** hole countries". That's a pretty accurate description of some of them. It isn't racist to accurately describe them that way.

    I've called my own kids monkeys. They're not black. But if I called black kids monkeys I'd be labeled a racist. What a load of crap the Left serves up. And people buy it.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  10. #70
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    The term "monkeys" is not automatically racist. And labeling an African country as a "**** hole" or an American city as a rat infested mess are not racist either.

    A researcher has found recording of Ronald Reagan describing UN representatives from Africa as monkeys, when he said "To see those, those monkeys from those African countries—damn them, they’re still uncomfortable wearing shoes!” https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...-nixon/595102/ No doubt many people will label Reagan a racist because of his use of the word to describe Africans. But it is clear by the comment about shoes, that Reagan was making a criticism of the culture and lack of modern advances in the African countries and, yes, the representatives of those countries. It was not an racist remark about all black people everywhere, as a race. This is not much different from Trump describing some nations as "**** hole countries". That's a pretty accurate description of some of them. It isn't racist to accurately describe them that way.

    I've called my own kids monkeys. They're not black. But if I called black kids monkeys I'd be labeled a racist. What a load of crap the Left serves up. And people buy it.
    To call black people monkeys is widely recognized as a racist slur and everyone (with the possible exception of you) realizes that. To refer to black people as apes or monkeys indicates that they are more primitive than white people which fits the definition of racism that you provided (inferior to whites). The fact it's possible to refer to blacks as monkeys without racist intent does not change the fact that practically every time someone does call them monkeys it is a racial insult and therefore racist. The fact that when calling them "monkeys" Reagan also said other negative things about them doesn't change that.

    Reagan was surely aware that calling blacks monkeys is a racial insult and nonetheless chose to use those words to describe some of them. He intentionally used a common racial insult and therefore he was almost certainly being racist.

    But then it's pretty common for the right to try to explain away another's racism (I guess if you are going to make unsupported stupid generalizations about the left, I'll do the same about the right.).
    Last edited by mican333; July 31st, 2019 at 04:58 PM.

  11. #71
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Mican, in your recent posts you've claimed that words or phrases are racist when spoken to or about a black person, even though you'll admit they are not racist when spoken to a white person. This is a special pleading fallacy. You also make that claim without any corroborating knowledge about the speaker used as evidence (For example, there is lots of evidence that Reagan was not a racist). So you're concluding that a word or person is "racist" based on they are talking to or about, rather than the character of the person making the statements. That turns the idea of racism on its head. Racism is defined by what the speaker thinks and intends, not the race of the subjects. You seem to be either unable or unwilling to understand that.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  12. #72
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Mican, in your recent posts you've claimed that words or phrases are racist when spoken to or about a black person, even though you'll admit they are not racist when spoken to a white person. This is a special pleading fallacy.
    So in other words....It's special pleading to think that calling a black person the N-word is racist but it's not racist to call a white person that word.

    Of course that's ridiculous and apparently intentionally ignores all of the reasoning why the two things are quite different.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    You also make that claim without any corroborating knowledge about the speaker used as evidence (For example, there is lots of evidence that Reagan was not a racist). So you're concluding that a word or person is "racist" based on they are talking to or about, rather than the character of the person making the statements. That turns the idea of racism on its head. Racism is defined by what the speaker thinks and intends, not the race of the subjects. You seem to be either unable or unwilling to understand that.
    I've clearly made the case that "monkey" was used as an intentional racist insult due to the CONTEXT of the situation (Reagan was aware that the term was racist and used it with that knowledge). You have ignored that argument. So go back and address the argument that I actually made.

    And besides that, you are shifting the burden. You argued that Reagan was not being racist so you have burden to support that before I need to support any opposing conclusion.

  13. #73
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    So in other words....It's special pleading to think that calling a black person the N-word is racist but it's not racist to call a white person that word.
    Yep. All else being equal, yes. If there is no other reason to think it is racist, other than use of the word, then you're making a special pleading argument. Is it racist when a black person calls another black that word? Nope. And when a black uses it toward a white? Nope. But if used by a white towards a black it is automatically racist? Yep, to you. That is a special pleading fallacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Of course that's ridiculous and apparently intentionally ignores all of the reasoning why the two things are quite different.
    Calling it ridiculous is not a rebuttal. Neither is claiming they are different without a compelling explanation, which you've not provided.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I've clearly made the case that "monkey" was used as an intentional racist insult due to the CONTEXT of the situation (Reagan was aware that the term was racist and used it with that knowledge). You have ignored that argument. So go back and address the argument that I actually made.
    And I've clearly made the case that he was using it towards specific groups of Africans from certain countries because they were primitive in development and culture. It was not meant to disparage all blacks as a race, so was therefore not racist. Your supposed rebuttal is a load of bosh.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  14. #74
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Yep. All else being equal, yes. If there is no other reason to think it is racist, other than use of the word, then you're making a special pleading argument. Is it racist when a black person calls another black that word? Nope. And when a black uses it toward a white? Nope. But if used by a white towards a black it is automatically racist? Yep, to you.
    And to practically everyone else (except you apparently). And that's because there IS a reason to think it's racist when a white person calls a black person that.

    But of course you are intelligent enough to know what that difference is.


    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Calling it ridiculous is not a rebuttal. Neither is claiming they are different without a compelling explanation, which you've not provided.
    Oh, I guess you DON"T know. Well, then let me explain.

    You see, the N-word is often used as a racial insult against black people and generally, black people consider it racist for a white person to use that word against them. OTOH, it is NOT a word that blacks use to racially insult whites not do whites typically consider it racist to have that word used against them.

    So you see, it's quite different when a white person uses it against a black person than it is for a black person to use it against a white person and that's why it's not special pleading to consider different usages of the word to be different.

    Now, is there anything else that Caption Obvious needs to explain to you?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    And I've clearly made the case that he was using it towards specific groups of Africans from certain countries because they were primitive in development and culture. It was not meant to disparage all blacks as a race, so was therefore not racist.
    And I'm suppose to take your word for it? Please support your assertion with something other than you just saying that it the case. How do you know that the use of the word "monkey" was not indicating that they were primitive racially as well as culturally?

  15. #75
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And to practically everyone else (except you apparently). And that's because there IS a reason to think it's racist when a white person calls a black person that.
    The above is nothing more than an Appeal to Popularity fallacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And I'm suppose to take your word for it? Please support your assertion with something other than you just saying that it the case. How do you know that the use of the word "monkey" was not indicating that they were primitive racially as well as culturally?
    And why should we take your word for anything? You refuse to even use the real definition of racism. All you offer are your opinions and argumentative fallacies. But thanks for sharing.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  16. #76
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    The above is nothing more than an Appeal to Popularity fallacy.
    No it's not. I did not say it's true because everyone agrees. I'm saying everyone (besides you) agrees because there is a reason to believe it's true and that reasoning is based on simple observation of how these words are used.

    So that's a mischaracterization of my argument.


    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    And why should we take your word for anything? You refuse to even use the real definition of racism
    Considering I've appealed to the definition numerous times (posts 63,66, 68, 70), that's obviously BS.

    So that's also a mischaracterization of my argument. I have used that definition multiple times.


    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    All you offer are your opinions and argumentative fallacies. But thanks for sharing.
    Well, considering how in your last post just mischaracterized my arguments instead of attacking them on their actual merits, I'd say you don't have any real rebuttals so instead of either continuing to attack them, or concede defeat, or just stop posting, you are signing off by portraying them falsely and using that as a transparent excuse for leaving the debate.

    Go ahead and do that if you want but I see through it.
    Last edited by mican333; August 3rd, 2019 at 08:24 AM.

  17. #77
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    It isn't racist... to make fun of Elizabeth Warren's claim of American Indian heritage by calling her Pocahontas.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  18. #78
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    It isn't racist... to make fun of Elizabeth Warren's claim of American Indian heritage by calling her Pocahontas.
    Well, it would be considered racist to call a white person who claims to be black "N*****" in public since that word itself is a racial slur.

  19. #79
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Well, it would be considered racist to call a white person who claims to be black "N*****" in public since that word itself is a racial slur.
    No, racism is determined by intent and beliefs of the speaker. But I understand that you and others on the left have very different opinions based on your own invented definitions.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  20. #80
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    No, racism is determined by intent and beliefs of the speaker. But I understand that you and others on the left have very different opinions based on your own invented definitions.
    Is it possible for you to debate without trolling the left? If so, please do so.

    And I was addressing intent. If one utters a racist slur publicly that means that either they are intending to cause racial offense or they don't care if they cause racial offense. Either way, they are disrespecting people of other races.

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