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  1. #101
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Mican, when you give me your definition of racism, and the source, we can proceed. Otherwise, there is no point in continuing. Your choice.
    I never rejected the definition that you forwarded. So go with that.

    And I would like you to address my rebuttal as I wrote it as opposed to your interpretation of it. If you won’t address my actual argument, then we can’t proceed.

  2. #102
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I never rejected the definition that you forwarded. So go with that.
    Okay, great. Can you tell me how referring to Elizabeth Warren as Pocahontas fits that definition of racism?
    Last edited by evensaul; August 29th, 2019 at 04:00 PM.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  3. #103
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Okay, great. Can you tell me how referring to Elizabeth Warren as Pocahontas fits that definition of racism?
    I could attempt to do that but I choose not to as it would basically be allowing you to shift the burden.

    If you want to argue that it's not racist per that definition, then it's up to you to make your argument and defend it, not up to me to defend the opposing positions first.

    If you want to address an argument I made, go back to post 62 and address that.

    http://www.onlinedebate.net/forums/s...l=1#post567227

  4. #104
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I could attempt to do that but I choose not to
    Okay, then I'll answer for you: It doesn't.

    Moving on...

    I've found on the internet that there a few special people who think that using the phrase "pot calling the kettle black" is racist, along with naming a food Devil's Food Cake. So because a few morons are offended, we should stop using idioms or names that include the word black. Otherwise we're racist.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  5. #105
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Okay, then I'll answer for you: It doesn't.
    And when you support that answer, I’ll provide a rebuttal to it.

    In the meantime I reject that answer for lack of support.

    And again, MY argument is in post 62 which does support that it's racist and that argument stands until it is rebutted.
    Last edited by mican333; August 29th, 2019 at 05:18 PM.

  6. #106
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Nope. So what?

    How, exactly, is it denigrating to all Native Americans?
    Because it is using a Native American in a flippant and disrespectful manner.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  7. #107
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Because it is using a Native American in a flippant and disrespectful manner.
    Even if true, that does not meet the definition of racism that I've provided. Are you using a different definition?

    I think you must be related to that Dallas city councilman I mentioned earlier. Do you also believe that the name "Devil's Food Cake" is racist because the cake is black?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  8. #108
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Even if true, that does not meet the definition of racism that I've provided. Are you using a different definition?

    I think you must be related to that Dallas city councilman I mentioned earlier. Do you also believe that the name "Devil's Food Cake" is racist because the cake is black?
    I'd agree that's a stretch. Using a popularly known historical figure of one group in that way denigrates the entire group. To go back to your definition it is in that way that someone promotes their own group over anothers. He didn't call her Betsy Ross.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  9. #109
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Using a popularly known historical figure of one group in that way denigrates the entire group.
    What makes you think this is true? I really don't see it. Not even a tiny little bit.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  10. #110
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    What makes you think this is true? I really don't see it. Not even a tiny little bit.
    Well, I don't know you so I can't give an example of something that might similarly insult you. It's an empathy thing.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  11. #111
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Well, I don't know you so I can't give an example of something that might similarly insult you. It's an empathy thing.
    Not a real compelling or convincing answer, Cowboy. I'm willing to listen on the slim chance of being persuaded, but you gotta do better than that.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  12. #112
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Not a real compelling or convincing answer, Cowboy. I'm willing to listen on the slim chance of being persuaded, but you gotta do better than that.
    I already did but you dismissed it out of hand. You are using a Native American woman as a caricature.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  13. #113
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I already did but you dismissed it out of hand. You are using a Native American woman as a caricature.
    How is it a caricature? From my view, it in no way disparages Pocahontas. Warren is the one being made fun of, or disparaged, not Pocahontas. So I don't get your reasoning.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  14. #114
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    How is it a caricature? From my view, it in no way disparages Pocahontas. Warren is the one being made fun of, or disparaged, not Pocahontas. So I don't get your reasoning.
    I'm not reengaging in our debate (that debate, as far as I'm concerned, has ended at post 105 and if you want to continue, you can respond to that) but perhaps to help this exchange.

    The issue that "Pocahontas" is a term that whites have used to insult Native Americans (NA). Although there is nothing innately bad about Pocahontas (as far as I know) to mockingly use a NA term against NAs makes it a term of mockery. Similar to how "boy" isn't innately offensive but that fact that whites have used the word "boy" when being disrespectful to blacks makes it a derisive term in the eyes of blacks.

    So the point is NAs do find the term, when used by whites to refer to female NAs, to be racially offensive. And when a group has pretty much decided that term is racially offensive, then the term is pretty much racially offensive to them.

    Like I said, I'm not necessarily looking to debate this (again respond to 105 if you want to continue our debate) but if this is responded to, I might respond back. No guarantees either way.

  15. #115
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    The issue that "Pocahontas" is a term that whites have used to insult Native Americans (NA).
    More unsupported rubbish.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  16. #116
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    More unsupported rubbish.
    I have supported that Native Americans view "Pocahontas" as an insult against them. Ignoring my support does not invalidate it.

    "Donald Trump’s repeated use of the name “Pocahontas” as part of an attack on Democrat Elizabeth Warren has been condemned as “an insult for political gain”, by the country’s largest indigenous rights groups.

    On Wednesday, the National Congress of American Indians (NCAI), which describes itself as the oldest and largest indigenous rights organisation in the US, formally criticised Mr Trump, saying his actions were part of a long tradition of insults endured by Native Americans and other indigenous groups."

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...en-pocahontas/

    And before you say something like "that's one guy", this is from the National Congress of American Indians

  17. #117
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    You've got support from leftist activists who got with the democrat program a little bit to claim it is an insult. They're wrong. It isn't an insult. Their claiming that it is doesn't make it one. And even if it were, that doesn't fit the definition of racism I supplied and you accepted. You've also supplied no historical evidence that using Pocahontas is in any way a racial slur. You've got zilch, as far as I'm concerned.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  18. #118
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    You've got support from leftist activists who got with the democrat program a little bit to claim it is an insult. They're wrong. It isn't an insult.
    And you are a better judge of what's insulting to Native Americans than a group that represents Native Americans why?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Their claiming that it is doesn't make it one. And even if it were, that doesn't fit the definition of racism I supplied and you accepted.
    Yeah, still waiting for you to support that one. When you support that it doesn't fit the definition is when I will even consider it to be a valid statement.


    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    You've also supplied no historical evidence that using Pocahontas is in any way a racial slur.
    Because I chose to support it is a different way - by quoting an actual Native American organization.


    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    You've got zilch, as far as I'm concerned.
    And "as far as I'm concerned" is zilch in regards to supporting anything.

  19. #119
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And you are a better judge of what's insulting to Native Americans than a group that represents Native Americans why?
    Because I haven't heard a good explanation of why it is insulting, and I believe I have a good explanation why it isn't. So from my perspective, I'm a better judge because it seems they are speaking from a purely political perspective or perhaps an emotional place without any logic involved, or perhaps just from ignorance of how racism is defined. One of the three. I'm guessing the same applies to you and Cowboy, because you're both unwilling or unable to give me straight answers.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Yeah, still waiting for you to support that one. When you support that it doesn't fit the definition is when I will even consider it to be a valid statement.
    There does not appear to be any objective, intended or implied disparagement of Native Americans as an inferior race, and the definition of racism has that as its heart.

    So I'd like you to explain how referring to Warren as Pocahontas suggests that all Native Americans are inferior as a race. If you are unwilling to that, I'm done with you on this.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  20. #120
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Because I haven't heard a good explanation of why it is insulting, and I believe I have a good explanation why it isn't. So from my perspective, I'm a better judge because it seems they are speaking from a purely political perspective or perhaps an emotional place without any logic involved, or perhaps just from ignorance of how racism is defined. One of the three. I'm guessing the same applies to you and Cowboy, because you're both unwilling or unable to give me straight answers.
    I ALREADY gave you a full answer on why it's insulting. Here it is. I'll bold it for emphasis this time.

    The issue that "Pocahontas" is a term that whites have used to insult Native Americans (NA). Although there is nothing innately bad about Pocahontas (as far as I know) to mockingly use a NA term against NAs makes it a term of mockery. Similar to how "boy" isn't innately offensive but that fact that whites have used the word "boy" when being disrespectful to blacks makes it a derisive term in the eyes of blacks.

    Most slurs are not innately insulting. The N-word doesn't contain any inherent negative connotation (I'm pretty sure that it's just a reference to the color black) but the fact that it's been intentionally used as a term of disrespect makes it a racist term. And the same goes for "Pocahontas".

    Now you can judge that the argument is not good or whatever but let's not pretend that a straight answer has not been given TWICE now.



    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    There does not appear to be any objective, intended or implied disparagement of Native Americans as an inferior race, and the definition of racism has that as its heart.

    So I'd like you to explain how referring to Warren as Pocahontas suggests that all Native Americans are inferior as a race. If you are unwilling to that, I'm done with you on this.
    If you disrespect another race in its entirety, you are essentially holding them as "lesser" than your own race and therefore, by the definition, you have forwarded, being racist. If one is aware that a term is viewed by members of a race as racially offensive, to intentionally use it when you know that members of the group will hear it (like saying it publicly) is to show lack of respect to that race. As an example, even if one is not attempting to disparage a black person in particular by saying the N-word (like they are talking about the word itself), if one is aware that black people will hear it when it is spoken and choosing to do it anyway because one is not too concerned about offending black people, they are being disrespectful to black people and therefore racist. And I have supported that Native Americans find the term "Pocahontas" racially offensive. So to use the term publicly with the knowledge that you will racially offend NAs when you use it is to be racist.

 

 
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