It isn't Racist to...

[evensaul]

And...

Racial profiling as generally practiced in the United States is not racism. It isn't racist to note that most crimes of certain types are committed by individuals of a certain race, gender and age.

It isn't racist to do a careful airport screening of young Arabic men boarding planes, and not as carefully screen old white women. Old white women are unlikely to hijack planes and fly them into office buildings, or carry bombs in their shoes.

It isn't racism to stop cars filled with Hispanics moving north away from the southern border with Mexico.

I live in an area where there are frequent thefts from automobiles by people who walk around late at night testing door handles. Every surveillance video I've seen from home cameras shows the perps to be black and hispanic teens. Would it be racist for police to stop any young black or hispanic teen boys out walking late at night, to ask questions? Hell no. It would be good policing.

When someone in response asks if it would be okay for police to stop white men for some reason, I'd say sure, if there is evidence that they are committing the bulk of crime category. Go for it.

[mican333]

And moving on...


Self-segregation (or auto-segregation) is not inherently racist. People just like to be around others who are similar to them in appearance and cultural background.

If the previous statements apply to American minorities, then they also apply to Caucasians.

I will say that I agree that self-segratation is not inherently racist but when practiced by whites is generally racist.

Whether self-segregation is racist depends entirely on the motivation for self-segregation. I think there is a variety of reasons that minorities might want to self-segregate and some of the motivations are racist and another are not.

But while we can hypothetically forward white self-segregation being done for non-racist reasons or MAYBE even find a real-world example of it being done for non-racist reasons the primary motivation for white segregation is "we don't like black people" (assuming they are specifically segregating themselves from black people). It's not enough to just say that one doesn't want to associate with "them". I don't associate with most of my neighbors beyond a friendly acknowledgement when we see each other. It's very easy to not have to deal with people I don't want to dealt with in my home life. But if my feelings towards certain people was so strong that I chose to go to the trouble of making sure that I don't even see any of them, then it's a stronger feeling than "not wanting to deal with them" - it's more along the lines of "not wanting to ever have to look at them".

And while I acknowledge that blacks can be racist against whites and some self-segregation of them is likewise racist, it's easier to forward other motivations when one is a minority in a country. Perhaps they just want to be with people who have shared the same struggles, etc.

But again, I can't think of any realistic motive for white self-segregation than "we really don't like black people".

[CowboyX]

John: I'm going to be a great president.
Susan: Make the bed, Lincoln.

Belittling towards Lincoln? Absolutely not.

Being President is a job, being a Native American is an immutable characteristic. Apples and oranges. Maybe you have another example.

[evensaul]

But while we can hypothetically forward white self-segregation being done for non-racist reasons or MAYBE even find a real-world example of it being done for non-racist reasons the primary motivation for white segregation is "we don't like black people" (assuming they are specifically segregating themselves from black people).

That's a huge assumption.

It's not enough to just say that one doesn't want to associate with "them". I don't associate with most of my neighbors beyond a friendly acknowledgement when we see each other. It's very easy to not have to deal with people I don't want to dealt with in my home life. But if my feelings towards certain people was so strong that I chose to go to the trouble of making sure that I don't even see any of them, then it's a stronger feeling than "not wanting to deal with them" - it's more along the lines of "not wanting to ever have to look at them".

Another big assumption and opinion.

And while I acknowledge that blacks can be racist against whites and some self-segregation of them is likewise racist, it's easier to forward other motivations when one is a minority in a country. Perhaps they just want to be with people who have shared the same struggles, etc.

Let's flesh out that "etc". I can think of lots of reasons that minorities might want to self-segregate, such as shared preferences in food, music, entertainment, leisure activities, religious observance, hair styles, dress and mannerisms. And they may just be more comfortable around people who look like they do. All of those (and probably more) could combine to create a powerful emotional need to self-segregate.

But again, I can't think of any realistic motive for white self-segregation than "we really don't like black people".

So none of the above driving factors that apply to minorities would apply to whites? Why not?

[mican333]

That's a huge assumption.

No, It's a very reasonable assumption.

I cannot think of any examples of whites advocating for racial separation from blacks which was not clearly rooted in racism nor can I think of a realistic scenario where this would happen (as in any description of non-racial white separatism would have to be a hypothetical).

Now, it is true that even a reasonable assumption is still an assumption and not support. But then I'm not the one who made the initial argument regarding whether white racial segregation is racist or not - you are so the original burden is yours.

I'm just explaining why I disagree instead of saying nothing about and just going "challenge, support or retract".

Another big assumption and opinion.

No, it's an argument that makes a lot of sense and you have not rebutted.

Let's flesh out that "etc". I can think of lots of reasons that minorities might want to self-segregate, such as shared preferences in food, music, entertainment, leisure activities, religious observance, hair styles, dress and mannerisms. And they may just be more comfortable around people who look like they do. All of those (and probably more) could combine to create a powerful emotional need to self-segregate.

Except you didn't mention race in that equation.

One can have a shared preference in food, music, entertainment, leisure activities, religious observance, hair styles, dress and mannerisms with someone of a different race.

And if one doesn't know anyone of a different race who shares enough of those commonalities to feasibly associate with, they can just not associate with those people. There is no need to try to find a place where they just won't encounter any of them.

I don't find it hard to not associate with people that I don't want to associate with in my free time. I just don't hang out with them.

So none of the above driving factors that apply to minorities would apply to whites? Why not?

Because a white person can limit their interactions to people who share their common interests and culture and exclude those who don't without moving somewhere where they don't even see black people.

--------------------

But let me lay out a scenario. So there's a family who has chosen, and succeeded, in racially segregating. Their daughter goes off to college and falls in love with a man called "Jim". Jim is, by all accounts, a perfect match for the family. He has the same political leanings as them, same socio-economic background, is great in his field and is guaranteed to be financially successful, etc. And he's white. So all is good and Jim is welcome to family functions like parties and Holidays. But now let's say Jim is the exact same guy but he's black. If the family is a racial segregationist, they will reject Jim despite all of the great qualities that I already mentioned. So the difference IS racial (since beyond race, there is no difference between White Jim and Black Jim). Therefore, the families rejection of Black Jim is racist and if they don't reject him, the they are not racial segregationists.

So you can't be a racial segregationist and still accept someone who is just like you in every way but race.

[Ibelsd]

And...

Racial profiling as generally practiced in the United States is not racism. It isn't racist to note that most crimes of certain types are committed by individuals of a certain race, gender and age.

It isn't racist to do a careful airport screening of young Arabic men boarding planes, and not as carefully screen old white women. Old white women are unlikely to hijack planes and fly them into office buildings, or carry bombs in their shoes.

It isn't racism to stop cars filled with Hispanics moving north away from the southern border with Mexico.

I live in an area where there are frequent thefts from automobiles by people who walk around late at night testing door handles. Every surveillance video I've seen from home cameras shows the perps to be black and hispanic teens. Would it be racist for police to stop any young black or hispanic teen boys out walking late at night, to ask questions? Hell no. It would be good policing.

When someone in response asks if it would be okay for police to stop white men for some reason, I'd say sure, if there is evidence that they are committing the bulk of crime category. Go for it.

In fact, if a car of white college kids is cruising slowly through Compton in the evening, you can bet your arse they'll be profiled and pulled over with cops asking what business they have in the hood.

For those not in the know Compton is a predominately black city. Although, I think I heard it was turning Hispanic. I dunno. It certainly ain't a place white college people hang for the most part.

With that being said, white

segregationist

(or any segregationist) movement is almost always based on racism. It is explicitly saying I don't want to be around with people of type X. And, unless this is some weird cultist group which believes they are self-quarantining themselves because they have a virus, then I think it is a very fair assumption that the belief is based on the idea of superiority over the other group. However, I'd like to point out that white nationalist or segregationist movements in the U.S. is a very small group of people. They are fringe groups at best. Certainly, they are not as numerous or prevalent as CNN or MSNBC would have one believe. These are not groups tied to the GOP. They are not supported by any mainstream organization. Largely, they are in the news because they are being used to invalidate arguments and candidates from the GOP. They are proxies for serious discussion of reasonable disagreements between the left and right in American politics. I've said it before, but unlike the left, the right has a pretty good idea of where the red line is that they should not cross where nationalism goes too far. Certainly, the GOP is highly aware and sensitive to being associated with groups like Storm Front or the KKK. You won't see David Duke at a GOP national convention. You won't see GOP leaders hobknobbing with white nationalist leaders intentionally. I say intentionally because all politicians take photo opportunities with strangers and for both Dems and Reps we have seen instances where they are in a photo with some infamous character through no fault of their own. Compare this to Dem politicians inviting someone like Farakkan to an event knowing he is anti-Semitic and racist. My point being that Dems simply have no clearly established red line they won't cross.

[CowboyX]

These are not groups tied to the GOP.

There are white nationalist members of the GOP, whether they're a member of any group is irrelevant. They share the same values.

Plenty of ripe examples of vocal, overt racists can already be found in Congress. Rep. Steve King (R-Iowa) has made a career out of being a bog-standard white nationalist, and makes no bones about his leanings. Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-Texas) has made his own form of brazen racism into a kind of performance art. On Thursday, 23 House Republicans voted against a resolution condemning racism because it contained language denouncing anti-Muslim hatred. Included in that list were two of the three top House Republican leaders, Committee Chairwoman Liz Cheney and House Minority Whip Steve Scalise.

[evensaul]

Mican and Ibelsd, do you think that "white flight" as seen in the U.S. is racist? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_flight)

[Ibelsd]

Mican and Ibelsd, do you think that "white flight" as seen in the U.S. is racist? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_flight)

First, I feel like I am being baited. However, I don't really care so I'll answer it. Sometimes. I think without looking at a specific instance or case at a specific time, it is impossible to say.

[evensaul]

First, I feel like I am being baited. However, I don't really care so I'll answer it. Sometimes. I think without looking at a specific instance or case at a specific time, it is impossible to say.

You're not being baited. To me, white flight appears to be movement away from undesirable cultures, and into suburbs with more (generally white) people who share common culture. That is self-segregation, and it is not racist. Do you disagree?

[Ibelsd]

You're not being baited. To me, white flight appears to be movement away from undesirable cultures, and into suburbs with more (generally white) people who share common culture. That is self-segregation, and it is not racist. Do you disagree?

Again, you'd have to be more specific. Who were these people? What were they specifically responding to when they moved? The scenario you are laying out actually does strike me as a bit racist. What made the culture they were fleeing from undesirable? What made the culture they were fleeing to more desirable? Did they just not like the smell of friend chicken? Did they hate those carts rolling down the street selling corn slathered with butter? Did they miss the weekly meetings where everyone came dressed up in a white sheet? Maybe, they found themselves in a neighborhood where everyone spoke Spanish but them and they were feeling excluded. I am just saying there is a lot of detail missing from your story which matters.

[evensaul]

Again, you'd have to be more specific. Who were these people? What were they specifically responding to when they moved? The scenario you are laying out actually does strike me as a bit racist. What made the culture they were fleeing from undesirable? What made the culture they were fleeing to more desirable? Did they just not like the smell of friend chicken? Did they hate those carts rolling down the street selling corn slathered with butter? Did they miss the weekly meetings where everyone came dressed up in a white sheet? Maybe, they found themselves in a neighborhood where everyone spoke Spanish but them and they were feeling excluded. I am just saying there is a lot of detail missing from your story which matters.

Of course there's a lot of detail missing. It's not like it is an organized movement. It's just people moving and living where they feel comfortable.

When you think of Chinatown in LA, or any of the more recently developed chinatowns in large U.S. cities, do you think the people who choose to live there must be "a bit racist"? They are choosing to not live in mixed Amerca, but rather to self-segregate. But you don't see any problem with that. Do you need all those details to come to a conclusion about asian-american self-segregation?

Many black families choose to forego a wide selection of mixed-race colleges, and instead prefer to attend Historically Black Colleges and Universities (HCBUs) https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/hbcu. But that choice doesn't strike you as racist, I'll bet. And you don't need to research all of those details to decide that, do you?

I could go on with some other examples of self-segregation which you and others probably don't see as racist.

But at the mere mention of possible self-segregation by whites, you immediate jump to the subject of White Supremacy, and your first thought of white flight is "a bit racist". You've been brainwashed, Ibelsd, to have a knee-jerk reaction to believe racism is at the heart of whites choosing to associate with each other, while not seeing it in minorities. Minorities choosing to self-segregate is socially acceptable, but whites doing anything similar is immediately suspect. Any minority group is allowed to have and enjoy its own culture. But the idea of associating around white (European ancestry) culture is politically and socially unacceptable.

[mican333]

You're not being baited. To me, white flight appears to be movement away from undesirable cultures, and into suburbs with more (generally white) people who share common culture. That is self-segregation, and it is not racist. Do you disagree?

It's not inherently racist. If one is moving from a poor neighborhood to a middle class neighborhood because they can afford to move to a better neighborhood and the color of the inhabitants of the neighborhoods had nothing to do with their decision to move, then racism played no part, even if the new neighborhood is whiter than the old neighborhood.

But then it could be argued that the reason that the poorer neighborhoods tend to be made up of minorities is because of racism (such as racism playing a significant role in why they are relatively poorer than whites). So while the "flyers" aren't necessarily racist, the reason why white flight happens is arguably because of racism. If the playing field was even, the poor and middle class neighborhoods should have a roughly equal amount of minorities and a minority is equally likely to "fly" as a white person.

Any minority group is allowed to have and enjoy its own culture. But the idea of associating around white (European ancestry) culture is politically and socially unacceptable.

There is no actual White culture.

I'm white but my ethnic culture is not white. It's primarily Scandinavian. And while I don't personally participate in Scandinavian celebrations, I'm aware that they exist in the US (mostly in Minnesota). And likewise there are Irish celebrations, Polish celebrations, German celebrations, etc and it's not considered politically incorrect to have those. So it's absolutely fine for white people to celebrate their cultural heritage and express pride in being German/Polish/Irish.

But just being Caucasian is not a cultural thing.

[Sigfried]

But at the mere mention of possible self-segregation by whites, you immediate jump to the subject of White Supremacy, and your first thought of white flight is "a bit racist". You've been brainwashed, Ibelsd, to have a knee-jerk reaction to believe racism is at the heart of whites choosing to associate with each other, while not seeing it in minorities. Minorities choosing to self-segregate is socially acceptable, but whites doing anything similar is immediately suspect. Any minority group is allowed to have and enjoy its own culture. But the idea of associating around white (European ancestry) culture is politically and socially unacceptable.

You have been brainwashed Evensaul. You've been given these arguments to make you sympathetic to racist ideologies. You have been sold the idea that whites are somehow in danger, that we are being oppressed and attacked and marginalized and that we need to somehow defend ourselves from this assault. That it's a good idea to stick to our own and gather together in solidarity for our protection from the "others."

Blacks and Native Americans and other minorities in America actually were attacked and marginalized, for quite a long time in fact. And it was white people that by and large did it to them. That doesn't mean they can't be racist, but they at least have a reasonable fear that drives some level of circling the wagons.

The phrase "self segregate" is a couching. A spin on the ideas of white supremacy, a more socially acceptable flavor of the same notion, that races are different, that they need solidarity, that it's an US vs them kind of situation. You strings are getting pulled by people further down the rabbit hole who have been pulling the same **** under different terms since racism became such a dirty word in the 1950s. Its a slow spin where they feed you rhetoric that gets you more and more marginalized, more and more radicalized, and more and more angry and bitter that all those other people are causing all your problems and challenges.

Don't listen to those assholes and find a path where you can live peacefully with people no matter their skin color, cultural style, or religious belief so long as they don't actively harm you.

[CowboyX]

But the idea of associating around white (European ancestry) culture is politically and socially unacceptable.

What is "white culture"? Have you ever been to Europe?

[Ibelsd]

Of course there's a lot of detail missing. It's not like it is an organized movement. It's just people moving and living where they feel comfortable.

When you think of Chinatown in LA, or any of the more recently developed chinatowns in large U.S. cities, do you think the people who choose to live there must be "a bit racist"? They are choosing to not live in mixed Amerca, but rather to self-segregate. But you don't see any problem with that. Do you need all those details to come to a conclusion about asian-american self-segregation?

Many black families choose to forego a wide selection of mixed-race colleges, and instead prefer to attend Historically Black Colleges and Universities (HCBUs) https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/hbcu. But that choice doesn't strike you as racist, I'll bet. And you don't need to research all of those details to decide that, do you?

I could go on with some other examples of self-segregation which you and others probably don't see as racist.

But at the mere mention of possible self-segregation by whites, you immediate jump to the subject of White Supremacy, and your first thought of white flight is "a bit racist". You've been brainwashed, Ibelsd, to have a knee-jerk reaction to believe racism is at the heart of whites choosing to associate with each other, while not seeing it in minorities. Minorities choosing to self-segregate is socially acceptable, but whites doing anything similar is immediately suspect. Any minority group is allowed to have and enjoy its own culture. But the idea of associating around white (European ancestry) culture is politically and socially unacceptable.

So... this was bait.

I KNOW Chinese people are racists. However, Chinatown in L.A. probably had less to do with racism from the Chinese and self-segregation than actual segregation. I can only speak to the L.A. version as that is the one I am familiar with. Back the in 1850's when the work was being done on the transcontinental railroad, Chinese were brought in for cheap labor all over the West Coast. And they had to live somewhere, right? When the work finished, and the Chinese began populating the metro areas on the West Coast, such as in Los Angeles, there would have been an issue. You see, Los Angeles communities were very segregated. Black people, for instance, were not allowed to move to white areas. So, some of the so-called self-segregation was not entirely done of choice. In Chinatown, it was probably a combination. You create communities where others speak your language and you fit in. On the other hand, if you actually wanted to go somewhere else, your choices were very limited. In the early to mid 1900's, Los Angeles was filled with housing compacts. If you bought a home, you'd have to sign, as part of the contract, that you wouldn't sell your home to blacks, mexicans, asians, etc. So, where did you want the Chinese to go? Was it racist of them to not go live in communities that wouldn't have allowed them to move there? So, my answer, as before, is that it is complex.

Now, on to a more personal note... the idea I am brainwashed and brainwashed to believe what is your portrayal of a progressive/social justice warrior trope is amusing. After all, if there is one thing people at ODN know me for, it is my very sympathetic views of progressive viewpoints. So, yeah, obviously I have been brainwashed. Bang-up job those progressives must have done on me. And I never said racism was at the heart of anything. I said without knowing the motivations of those who fled, it'd be impossible to say one way or the other. As you described it, then yeah, it sounded a little racist. People just up and left when someone moved in with a different culture. I suppose it could have been a bunch of Wops, in which case, not racist at all. Or, you could explicitely say they were Muslims and the Muslims built a huge mosque and six times a day, the bell ringing and the congregations of men and oddly dressed women and the whole thing and I wouldn't say racist. I'd say, yeah, some cultures just don't mix well. If white people fled because they couldn't stand the smell of corn lathered in hot mayo.... then they are just morons. Cause that **** is delicious.