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  1. #121
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I ALREADY gave you a full answer on why it's insulting. Here it is. I'll bold it for emphasis this time.

    [B]The issue that "Pocahontas" is a term that whites have used to insult Native Americans (NA). Although there is nothing innately bad about Pocahontas (as far as I know) to mockingly use a NA term against NAs makes it a term of mockery.
    Show me the evidence that this has happened historically, leading up to Trump's use, and that it had previously been considered a racial slur.

    Wikipedia has a very extensive list of racial slurs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs
    See if you can find Pocahontas listed as a racial insult. No luck? Well, I figure that's because it wasn't recognized as a slur until this political campaign to call it one.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  2. #122
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    How is it a caricature? From my view, it in no way disparages Pocahontas. Warren is the one being made fun of, or disparaged, not Pocahontas. So I don't get your reasoning.
    You're using Pocahontas as a caricature against Warren. That is racist.

  3. #123
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Caricature, how? Nobody is making fun of her in any way. I don’t get why you think that.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  4. #124
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Caricature, how? Nobody is making fun of her in any way. I don’t get why you think that.
    You're using Pocahontas - her name - to score political points therefore transforming her into a caricature of a Native American woman. That is racist.

  5. #125
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Using her name does not create a caricature. Are you sure that caricature is the word you're looking for? It means "a picture, description, or imitation of a person in which certain striking characteristics are exaggerated in order to create a comic or grotesque effect". Here's an example of a caricature of African Americans from more than a hundred years ago:

    Name:  1900s_Postcard-You_Doun_Want_None_of_My_Lip.jpg
Views: 19
Size:  36.0 KB

    I've looked on the internet for caricatures of Pocahontas. I can't even find any, much less one used by Trump. And he hasn't done any imitations of her either, so far as I know. I've seen nothing from him that can reasonably be described as a caricature. But maybe you can provide one. Or maybe you just chose the wrong word. If neither, then your baseless and unsupported claim can be ignored.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  6. #126
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Using her name does not create a caricature. Are you sure that caricature is the word you're looking for? It means "a picture, description, or imitation of a person in which certain striking characteristics are exaggerated in order to create a comic or grotesque effect". Here's an example of a caricature of African Americans from more than a hundred years ago:
    Her name is the description being used, as I already said.

  7. #127
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    And as I've said, that is in no way an insult to her or Native Americans generally. I think I'm done with you on this issue unless you offer a cogent argument.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  8. #128
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Show me the evidence that this has happened historically, leading up to Trump's use, and that it had previously been considered a racial slur.

    Wikipedia has a very extensive list of racial slurs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs
    See if you can find Pocahontas listed as a racial insult. No luck? Well, I figure that's because it wasn't recognized as a slur until this political campaign to call it one.
    That list is by no means exhaustive. For example "boy", a slur against blacks, is not in there.

    But there is no doubt that the term is NOW being used insultingly. I mean we agree that when Trump calls Warren "Pocahontas", he is leveling an insult against her. And using a term that refers to a particular race as an insult is disrespectful to that race. I mean if I used your name to insult others, such as calling a different opponent "Eventual" when I think he's behaving badly, you would certainly consider that as portraying you in a negative light. And Pocahontas is almost certainly the most well-known Native American female in our current society - I wouldn't be surprised if most Americans couldn't name any other Native American females. So it's not surprising that Native Americans are upset when Trump uses one of their most famous persons as a term of derision. Her name being used that way certainly does not raise her profile in the eyes of the Americans - it likely denigrates her to many and they think of an insult to a Presidential Candidate first and foremost when they hear the name now.

    So if Trump does care about Native Americans more than he cares about taking a dig at a political opponent to help him win the Presidency, he will cease to use it. If he doesn't care about them enough to cease upsetting them by using the name of one of the most, if not the most. famous Native Americans as a term of derision, then it can certainly be reasonably argued that he is being racist if he uses that term again.

  9. #129
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But there is no doubt that the term is NOW being used insultingly.
    And let's be clear: you have to take this approach because you have NO evidence that it has been used historically as an insult.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I mean we agree that when Trump calls Warren "Pocahontas", he is leveling an insult against her.
    At Warren, who is NOT a Native American. He is NOT directing it towards any Native American.


    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And using a term that refers to a particular race as an insult is disrespectful to that race.
    Which he is decidedly NOT doing.

    Your argument is basically the same as Cowboy's. I'm done with you on this also, unless you provide a better argument.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  10. #130
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    And let's be clear: you have to take this approach because you have NO evidence that it has been used historically as an insult.
    Not at my fingertips. I decided to not take the time to go looking for evidence and approach your argument in a fashion that doesn't require me to do such research.


    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Which he is decidedly NOT doing.
    He Is referring to the probably most well-known Native American in our culture as a term of derision. Again, if I started calling people on this site "Evensaul" when they did something wrong, you would rightly see it as as disrespectful to you.

    So his use is disrespectful to Pocahontas herself which, by extension, is disrespectful to Native Americans. To be disrespectful to a race is to hold them inferior to your own and therefore fits the definition of racism.

    Whether you are impressed with this argument doesn't matter. You asked that I show how it fits the definition of "racism" and I have.


    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Your argument is basically the same as Cowboy's. I'm done with you on this also, unless you provide a better argument.

    I most certainly do have a better argument. Apparently it was so good that you have avoided it. Go to post 62, which does support that the usage is racist and that argument stands until you rebut it.

    Whether you choose to respond to it or just cease responding to me and let it stand is up to you.

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  12. #131
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Dude, if someone claimed to be a highly intelligent conservative who doesn't tolerate really stupid arguments from the Left, and someone called him "Evensaul", it would only mean that he isn't what he claims to be. That's all. It would in NO WAY be an insult towards me or other highly intelligent conservatives who don't tolerate really stupid fu**ing arguments from the Left.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  13. #132
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Dude, if someone claimed to be a highly intelligent conservative who doesn't tolerate really stupid arguments from the Left, and someone called him "Evensaul", it would only mean that he isn't what he claims to be. That's all. It would in NO WAY be an insult towards me or other highly intelligent conservatives who don't tolerate really stupid fu**ing arguments from the Left.
    Which doesn't address what I was saying.

    The context determines whether the usage is complimentary, insulting, or neutral. As an example, I've accused you of trolling recently. So if another debate opponent was trolling and I called him "Evensaul", that would be using your name as an insult and likewise insulting you. And of course, in this context Trump is using Pocohontas as an insult.

    And you are avoiding my main point, here. He is using the name of the most famous NA in the US as a term of derision. THAT is disrespectful to Native Americans.

  14. #133
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Your scenario removes the element of someone claiming to be something they’re not, therefore your analogy is flawed.

    Try this: If someone you know claims to be a great artist, and you sarcastically call him Rembrandt, is that an insult of the great master? Of course not. It is just a jab at the wannabe.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  15. #134
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Your scenario removes the element of someone claiming to be something they’re not, therefore your analogy is flawed.

    Try this: If someone you know claims to be a great artist, and you sarcastically call him Rembrandt, is that an insult of the great master? Of course not. It is just a jab at the wannabe.
    That analogy doesn't work because the comparison holds Rembrandt is high regard. Rembrandt's great and you are not Rembrandt (great). So in reference to Rembrandt, you are holding him up to be great.

    And Trump is not holding Pocahontas up to be great when he uses it. He's just using the name to insult someone else. So Pocahontas has been reduced to a punchline instead of being promoted or celebrated or pretty much anything that one might do to honor the most famous Native American there is (or at least the most famous female Native American). If it were said out of respect to her (like I would actually showing respect to Rembrandt by insinuating that those who are not great painters are not him and therefore he is a great painter), then it would not be belittling her but as he is using, he is belittling her because he has reduced her to nothing more than a name to use to insult a political opponent.

    If he doesn't care about Native Americans to treat the most famous NA female with some modicum of respect, especially after it is pointed out to him that NA's do consider his use to be racially offensive, then his continuing to use it is racist.

  16. #135
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    That analogy doesn't work because the comparison holds Rembrandt is high regard. Rembrandt's great and you are not Rembrandt (great). So in reference to Rembrandt, you are holding him up to be great.
    We could easily create a scenario where the person is not held in high regard, but would you accept it:

    John: I'm have woodsman skills.
    Susan: Yeah, right, you're a regular lumberjack.

    Or create your own, Mican. ( I know you won't because you won't accept anything that actually works and proves you wrong.) The point is that the meaning is that "You think you're woodsman, but you're not" or "Warren thinks she's Pocahontas, but she's a fraud". You've failed to adequately explain how that impugns Pocahontas.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And Trump is not holding Pocahontas up to be great when he uses it. He's just using the name to insult someone else. So Pocahontas has been reduced to a punchline instead of being promoted or celebrated or pretty much anything that one might do to honor the most famous Native American there is (or at least the most famous female Native American). If it were said out of respect to her (like I would actually showing respect to Rembrandt by insinuating that those who are not great painters are not him and therefore he is a great painter), then it would not be belittling her but as he is using, he is belittling her because he has reduced her to nothing more than a name to use to insult a political opponent.
    This is a load of cowshit. Nothing he says is belittling to anyone but Warren. If you really believe that, then there is no way we will ever convince the other. Any further discussion on it is pointless.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    If he doesn't care about Native Americans to treat the most famous NA female with some modicum of respect, especially after it is pointed out to him that NA's do consider his use to be racially offensive, then his continuing to use it is racist.
    You're suggesting that insensitivity to others equals racism. That isn't in the definition. You may think it should be, and one day it may be if the Left has its way, but right now it isn't.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  17. #136
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    If we create a scenario where the person is not held in We could easily create a scenario where the person is not held in high regard, but would you accept it:

    John: I'm have woodsman skills.
    Susan: Yeah, right, you're a regular lumberjack.

    Or create your own, Mican. ( I know you won't because you won't accept anything that actually works and proves you wrong.) The point is that the meaning is that "You think you're woodsman, but you're not" or "Warren thinks she's Pocahontas, but she's a fraud". You've failed to adequately explain how that impugns Pocahontas.
    Define "adequately explained". From all appearances, it seems to be "when Evensaul is sufficiently impressed".

    That is not a valid basis for rejection. I've made my argument. It stands until you rebut, not until you're impressed by it. You need to actually tell me why I'm incorrect.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    This is a load of cowshit. Nothing he says is belittling to anyone but Warren. If you really believe that, then there is no way we will ever convince the other. Any further discussion on it is pointless.
    First off, I have explained how it belittle Pocahontas. You're response amounts to little more than "No, it doesn't" which is not a rebuttal.

    Here is the explanation again:

    "And Trump is not holding Pocahontas up to be great when he uses it. He's just using the name to insult someone else. So Pocahontas has been reduced to a punchline instead of being promoted or celebrated or pretty much anything that one might do to honor the most famous Native American there is (or at least the most famous female Native American). If it were said out of respect to her (like I would actually showing respect to Rembrandt by insinuating that those who are not great painters are not him and therefore he is a great painter), then it would not be belittling her but as he is using, he is belittling her because he has reduced her to nothing more than a name to use to insult a political opponent."

    So you don't agree that taking a significant historical figure and making them nothing more than a term to use against a political opponent is "belittling" them? You don't think that Pocahontas should be treated with some modicum of reverence in the same way that, say, Lincoln is? If so, I guess you are entitled to your opinion on the matter but clearly many Native Americans do think that is belittling and have directly complained about her name being used as an insult. So why are you right and they are wrong? You are really just appealing to your own opinions here as far as I can tell. So if you want to rebut my argument, you will need something else than just your own opinion on the matter.

    And your threat to take your proverbial ball and go home means little. If you want to leave and let my argument stand for lack of response, then fine. Then I "win" since you didn't rebut my argument. To be clear, I would prefer to continue the debate but if you want to take your ball and go home and leave me the only player left in the game, I won't object. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.


    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    You're suggesting that insensitivity to others equals racism. That isn't in the definition. You may think it should be, and one day it may be if the Left has its way, but right now it isn't.
    aaaaand we're back to misrepresenting my argument.

    You JUST acknowledged that my argument is that Trump is belittling Pocahontas. Whether you agree or disagree, you can't now pretend that my argument is nothing more than claiming insensitivity.

  18. #137
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    And as I've said, that is in no way an insult to her or Native Americans generally. I think I'm done with you on this issue unless you offer a cogent argument.
    Sure it is. Moreso since she isn't alive to defend herself. So it is cowardly as well.

  19. #138
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Define "adequately explained". From all appearances, it seems to be "when Evensaul is sufficiently impressed".
    Exactly right. Other than the area of historical evidence, which is completely on my side, this is a matter of opinion on whether Trumps use of the name Pocahontas belittles or disparages that historical person and, through her, all Native Americans. You and I see interpret the meanings differently. I'm not convincing you, while you and Cowboy are certainly not convincing me. So I see no point in continuing.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    So you don't agree that taking a significant historical figure and making them nothing more than a term to use against a political opponent is "belittling" them? You don't think that Pocahontas should be treated with some modicum of reverence in the same way that, say, Lincoln is?
    John: I'm going to be a great president.
    Susan: Make the bed, Lincoln.

    Belittling towards Lincoln? Absolutely not.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Then I "win" since you didn't rebut my argument.
    You go ahead and think that. (It's what you're really good at.) You're the Michael Jordan of ODN. (Belittling towards Jordan? Hardly.)
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  20. #139
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Exactly right. Other than the area of historical evidence, which is completely on my side, this is a matter of opinion on whether Trumps use of the name Pocahontas belittles or disparages that historical person and, through her, all Native Americans. You and I see interpret the meanings differently. I'm not convincing you, while you and Cowboy are certainly not convincing me. So I see no point in continuing.
    The issue is not whether you are personally convinced by my argument. It's whether you will rebut my argument. Rebutting my argument requires an actual counter-argument from you. Just saying "Nah, not impressed with that" does not do it.

    So it's pretty binary here. Do you have an actual counter-argument?

    If yes, then let's hear it.
    If no, then my argument stands.

    If you "take your ball and go home" instead of offering an actual rebuttal, then my argument stands. Just like my argument in post 62 also stands because you have yet to rebut it.


    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    John: I'm going to be a great president.
    Susan: Make the bed, Lincoln.

    Belittling towards Lincoln? Absolutely not.
    It's the opposite of belittling Lincoln. It indirectly lionizes him as it indicates that he's great by using him as a sarcastic example of John being not-great. It takes a great mean and confirms his greatness.

    Trump's use of "Pocahontas" takes a great person and makes her nothing more than a political punchline.

    No wonder you aren't impressed with my argument. You don't seem to understand it.


    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    You go ahead and think that.
    I don't have to think that. The rules here is that an unrebutted argument stands. It doesn't even have to be a good argument. If the opponent declines to offer a valid counter-argument it stands.

  21. #140
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    Re: It isn't Racist to...

    And moving on...


    Self-segregation (or auto-segregation) is not inherently racist. People just like to be around others who are similar to them in appearance and cultural background.

    If the previous statements apply to American minorities, then they also apply to Caucasians.


    Some reading material, not necessarily in support of my argument:


    https://wjla.com/news/armstrong-army...ed-opportunity
    https://slate.com/business/2017/07/t...hborhoods.html
    https://www.theatlantic.com/educatio...uaries/416694/
    https://lifewayresearch.com/2015/01/...th-worshipers/
    https://www.vox.com/2017/1/18/142961...orhood-cartoon
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

 

 
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