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  1. #1
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    To Europe - Put Up and Shut Up

    It is way past time for the EU to pay for it's own national defense, and stop living high on the hog from US subsidies for NATO. European nations have been able to provide generous employment and welfare programs for its citizens, because it hasn't been paying the full fair for defense against Russia. The EU should create an effective military of its own, at its own cost, and fully fund NATO. As Angela Merkel says "“The times when we could rely (read suckle) on others are over. This means we Europeans have to take our fate fully into our own hands,” Merkel said. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-e...-idUSKCN1NI1UQ
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  2. #2
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    Re: To Europe - Put Up and Shut Up

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    It is way past time for the EU to pay for it's own national defense, and stop living high on the hog from US subsidies for NATO. European nations have been able to provide generous employment and welfare programs for its citizens, because it hasn't been paying the full fair for defense against Russia. The EU should create an effective military of its own, at its own cost, and fully fund NATO. As Angela Merkel says "“The times when we could rely (read suckle) on others are over. This means we Europeans have to take our fate fully into our own hands,” Merkel said. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-e...-idUSKCN1NI1UQ
    Indeed, a weakened NATO is exactly what Putin wants. Thanks Trump, good job boy!
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  3. #3
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    Re: To Europe - Put Up and Shut Up

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Indeed, a weakened NATO is exactly what Putin wants. Thanks Trump, good job boy!
    Why should we care what Putin wants?

    The idea of our presence there is to create stability. And it likely does that to some degree. But I do think that maintaining a war footing at all times all over the world is not rational. It is better to keep a plausible defence and the ability to ramp up as needed. Russia is not going to be attacking western Europe any time soon. Its true that they have their fingers in places in Europe, but those aren't NATO countries and they were satalite states for a long time so they have some actual cultural stake there thus it is not about conquest.

    I agree that we should phase down American forces abroad and allow more nations to decide what level of defense they feel is appropriate.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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  5. #4
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    Re: To Europe - Put Up and Shut Up

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Why should we care what Putin wants?
    Because he's incredibly dangerous.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  6. #5
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    Re: To Europe - Put Up and Shut Up

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Because he's incredibly dangerous.
    That doesn't mean everything he wants is automatically bad for us. We need to make our decisions based on our own strategy and goals, not his. Example: If Putin wants peace, that doesn't mean we should desire war.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  7. #6
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    Re: To Europe - Put Up and Shut Up

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    It is way past time for the EU to pay for it's own national defense, and stop living high on the hog from US subsidies for NATO. European nations have been able to provide generous employment and welfare programs for its citizens, because it hasn't been paying the full fair for defense against Russia. The EU should create an effective military of its own, at its own cost, and fully fund NATO. As Angela Merkel says "“The times when we could rely (read suckle) on others are over. This means we Europeans have to take our fate fully into our own hands,” Merkel said. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-e...-idUSKCN1NI1UQ
    This is a very childish, naive and dangerous point of view:

    1. America has as much to gain from a strong Europe as Europe itself. Indeed, in many ways, having a US presence all over the world, makes America much stronger.
    2. EU having a separate military makes little sense since the West has similar goals both culturally, economically and strategically against the worlds' powers. It makes no sense for the EU to spend money on a totally separate military infrastructure AND NATO.
    3. A weakened West totally plays into Putin's hands. To ignore this is naive to the point that not recognizing this means that this is merely the right-wing anti-"globalist" view, a conspiracy theory that doesn't really deserve debate.

  8. #7
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    Re: To Europe - Put Up and Shut Up

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post

    1. America has as much to gain from a strong Europe as Europe itself. Indeed, in many ways, having a US presence all over the world, makes America much stronger.
    If the benefit is equal, then shouldn't the expenditures be equal? Why should the US meet the lion's share of cost?

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    2. EU having a separate military makes little sense since the West has similar goals both culturally, economically and strategically against the worlds' powers. It makes no sense for the EU to spend money on a totally separate military infrastructure AND NATO.
    This op is essentially about Europe supporting itself. Why would you allow them to continue freeloading?

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    3. A weakened West totally plays into Putin's hands. To ignore this is naive to the point that not recognizing this means that this is merely the right-wing anti-"globalist" view, a conspiracy theory that doesn't really deserve debate.
    Weakened how? I don't see how Europe defending itself, or paying for its defense, creates a weakened West.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  9. #8
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    Re: To Europe - Put Up and Shut Up

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    If the benefit is equal, then shouldn't the expenditures be equal? Why should the US meet the lion's share of cost?
    The benefit isn’t equal. The US gets to sell its arms and culture and they get to place military forces in strategic locations and get to control the whole thing! The EU benefits from the US’s strength but the US gets to export much more.

    It’s unrealistic to think that these conversations haven’t already taken place.

    This op is essentially about Europe supporting itself. Why would you allow them to continue freeloading?
    Because it’s not freeloading if it’s mutually beneficial.

    Weakened how? I don't see how Europe defending itself, or paying for its defense, creates a weakened West.
    Because EU doesn’t have as many weapons and they have ALWAYS called on the US for any major war. And where do the weapons come from anyway? The US, the world’s largest manufacturer of weapons!

    And how does the EU defend against Russia anyway? The latter has been crippled already economically due to the West’s sanctions but when it comes to a physical war - who do you think will really win without the US’ support?

    Be realistic about this man - you’re not making much sense.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

  10. #9
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    Re: To Europe - Put Up and Shut Up

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    Be realistic about this man - you’re not making much sense.
    Your argument is unsupported rubbish. The US is not selling arms to Europe. There is no significant benefit to the US for doing all the arms support for Europe's defense. It just more debt to US taxpayers, who essentially subsidize lazy European welfare states that refuse to pay for their own security.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  11. #10
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    Re: To Europe - Put Up and Shut Up

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Your argument is unsupported rubbish. The US is not selling arms to Europe. There is no significant benefit to the US for doing all the arms support for Europe's defense. It just more debt to US taxpayers, who essentially subsidize lazy European welfare states that refuse to pay for their own security.
    It’s not just about arms sales as I said. It’s everything I pointed out. And it’s not just about EU security - it’s also about US security.

  12. #11
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    Re: To Europe - Put Up and Shut Up

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    It’s not just about arms sales as I said. It’s everything I pointed out. And it’s not just about EU security - it’s also about US security.
    None of which you've explained or supported enough to be taken seriously.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  13. #12
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    Re: To Europe - Put Up and Shut Up

    I look at it more as skins in the game. I object to Americans being the primary foot soldiers and thus the ones to shed blood and die, for another countries security. I don't mind helping allies, but it isnr right that they would not match the risk of lives in war for their freedom. Also, it isn't wise to have the us police other nations because some one one day may get the bright idea that we have been doing all the dying so it is really our country and not theirs. (Assuming a war occurred etc.. etc.)
    To serve man.

  14. #13
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    Re: To Europe - Put Up and Shut Up

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    None of which you've explained or supported enough to be taken seriously.
    Which part are you having issue with? Specifically.

 

 

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