Welcome guest, is this your first visit? Create Account now to join.
  • Login:

Welcome to the Online Debate Network.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2
Results 21 to 24 of 24
  1. #21
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    8,772
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Mind Trapped by: One Trap to rule them all

    Short reply, because the basis of your response is built on an incorrect understanding of the argument at the most basic level.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    The critique is based on totally unfounded assumptions. It assumes that logic should have a force, and it assumes that peoples thoughts should always be truth. Both are largely unfounded presuppositions.
    False, the argument is that on naturalism such a force does not exist.


    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    Ideas are only representational. That is the possition of naturalism (or at least my version of it) so that would not be a critique at all. It is only a critique if you assume there is some proof that ideas do have an existence beyond being representations. That is the falsee assumption I was attacking.
    That is simply not the assumption being expressed. In fact, it is the opposite.

    The first wall, as stated specifically relies on the assertion that you have repeatedly affirmed several times in this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    Ideas to dot have causal poweers, who said they did or should?
    Listen.. really.. really listen.
    Wall #1 does not say they do or should, it does not imply this reaction. in fact.. wall #1 IS THIS very statement.

    You clearly have not grasped what wall #1 is. Please go back and read it with these corrections in mind.
    To serve man.

  2. #22
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    2,103
    Post Thanks / Like

    Mind Trapped by: One Trap to rule them all

    I'm going to miss your Mind Traps. You should start a blog or something!

    To all the atheist who ask for evidence of the "super natural". Of some instance of our natural world being effected by some element that is beyond the natural world. This is it. Consciousness and access to logic can not be created in the natural world. Nothing in the natural world can ascribe "meaning" and meta-physical consequence to any given set of natural conditions, or arrangement of atoms. The physical is nothing more than a complex Newtons cradle. The Atheist statement of faith(for lack of a better term) "The cosmos is all there is, or was or ever will be." Is wrong, and we experience the falsification every moment.
    I think an honest atheist, although seeing the flaws in your world view, particularly around the idea of the supernatural, would simply answer: "I don't know but I know it's not what religions tell us: we have enough actual evidence including contemporaneous ones how easily manipulable people can be when given a view of the universe that blows their mind".

    The idea of what the 'self' is, how we make sense of the world, and how we remember things, and draw conclusions, ideas and then come up with models, is one of life's great mysteries. We're learning more about this meta-physical world because we're actually using it and manipulating it: in advertising, political campaigns, influencers on social media, Cambridge Analytics, the government agencies, and religions since forever. These groups have been been trying to understand what makes us tick, and then figuring out how to make us 'tock'.

    All of this stuff we are learning about how the human mind works makes much more sense than some “magic man” in the sky or some other religious variant that is just as implausible, improbable and certainly unproven.

    So your point that without religion (A-theism) doesn’t have a good answer is only partially true. The true part is that it doesn’t have an answer but the other true part is that it remains the best way to approach the problem; and it is the best approach because religious approaches haven’t become stronger with time but weaker.

    I also don't think "The cosmos is all there is" is a good Atheist statement at all: it's true that it is currently all we have evidence for but to make further claims makes little sense.

    – Preaching section
    This is why Christians say, that the atheist must sit in the lap of God in order to slap his face. The atheist must appeal to consciousness and logic, which he can not establish or justify his own use of. My response to those who have asked, “why do you believe in God”, has been “Because it is obvious”. For me reason Atheism fails to be a consistent and viable world view, is because it must consistently borrow from the ideas of Christianity, and make assumptions that do not make sense upon it's own self.


    Another way to put this and strip out all the mysterious terms is that atheists need to have theists in order to justify their viewpoints: it’s in the word “a-theism”. We also live in a Western world, with hundreds of years of established customs and laws and ideas that have been shown to be consistently wrong, ill-informed and frankly immoral both explicitly and in not addressing issues that are obvious to the modern mind religion has failed to adapt. The problem you see in atheism not being “consistent” is untrue since it is based on the same science and the “borrowing” of ideas just means that there is some good stuff in Christianity: it’s just that this “good stuff” doesn’t need magic.

    All of this doesn't lend Christianity any credibility at all: atheists and progressives are changing the world for the better. We are not so much sitting on the lap of God as telling Christians your moral foundation has failed the world and we need to do better.

    The atheist rejects God on moral grounds, but can not establish morality other than in terms of personal preference. When the question of “Why is there evil in the world”, if taken to be understood as “why are there things I don't like in the world”, losses it's force. The atheist often portraits himself as being the most logical, but must take our access to logic and it's metaphysical force on faith, that contradicts his entire naturalistic world view.
    Atheism doesn't reject God on moral grounds: atheists do not believe in God. They are rejecting the tenants of Christianity that do not accord to evidence or modern morality. To suggest that there's no answer to "why there is evil" without referring a deity is nonsense: we have ideas from science as to why people do bad things, we have evidence from criminals as to why they behave they do, we have many studies about evil from history, psychology, anthropology, philosophy and nearly every social media or online community has had to deal with this in many different ways and they don't need a deity to figure out how to deal with it.

    Think about ODN: does it appeal to God for infractions or banning? No it doesn't - it's rules are entirely based on reason and actions based on facts. Adding a deity into the mix would makes things so much more complicated that it's clear why religions are losing their power; and even adding a particular religious viewpoint is nonsensical, which shows why the religious moral is losing ground.

    So the answer is already in front of you: it may well be that atheism doesn't have the history or the single point of view that religions claim they have with their "god" but it's clear that religion is becoming less effective and less useful and that secularism and ultimately atheism is the way to go.
    Last edited by SharmaK; December 2nd, 2018 at 03:13 PM.

  3. Thanks Sigfried, MindTrap028 thanked for this post
  4. #23
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Seattle, Washington USA
    Posts
    7,249
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Mind Trapped by: One Trap to rule them all

    False, the argument is that on naturalism such a force does not exist.
    But why is that even an argument? Naturalism doesn't make any such claims, so why is it a critique to say they can't show such? It's nonsensical.

    The first wall, as stated specifically relies on the assertion that you have repeatedly affirmed several times in this thread.
    Honestly the more you try to rebuttal the less I understand what you are trying to argue.

    Listen.. really.. really listen.
    Wall #1 does not say they do or should, it does not imply this reaction. in fact.. wall #1 IS THIS very statement.
    Then how is it a critique of naturalism? It's like critiquing atheist for arguing they don't believe in God. I'd say, well ya, of course, what of it?
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  5. Likes futureboy liked this post
  6. #24
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    8,772
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Mind Trapped by: One Trap to rule them all

    @ Sig, because it has some very significant implications. The largest is that it doesn't make sense with what we actually experience. Your responses here, certainly haven't accounted for the point being made, and it's pretty significant.

    The most interesting implication to me is this.
    That a given brain state, that represents a given idea, could have been a representation of ANY idea, or no idea at all.
    This opens up a huge door for the kind of "design" argument.

    Another, is that certain ideas may not be represented in our universe. Like, suppose cold fusion is possible, but there is no brain state
    that just so happens to correlate to that idea which would bring it about.
    To serve man.

 

 
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2

Similar Threads

  1. Mind Trap's
    By MindTrap028 in forum Logical Riddles & Puzzles
    Replies: 87
    Last Post: November 26th, 2011, 04:22 PM
  2. Mind Trap #1
    By MindTrap028 in forum Philosophical Debates
    Replies: 94
    Last Post: June 13th, 2009, 06:44 PM
  3. Mind Trap VS The Dog
    By MindTrap028 in forum General Debate
    Replies: 26
    Last Post: March 24th, 2009, 11:49 PM
  4. Mind Trap Got hit
    By MindTrap028 in forum Entertainment
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: January 21st, 2008, 05:08 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •