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  1. #1
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    Feb 2006
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    Mind Trapped by: One Trap to rule them all

    One Mind Trap to Rule them all!

    -Introduction and thanks-
    For the past 12 years I have had the pleasure of debating on this site, and it has been an influential part of my life. Each of you here have been given me something to think about and new perspectives. For that, I thank you from the bottom of my heart. I count you all brothers and sisters. Because, like my actual brother, we disagree to even maddening levels, but we love each other and have a genuine desire to see each others lives prosper.

    So I consider this my fair well thread. The last thing that I can offer you to think about. In the future, I hope that when you hear of a “Mind Trap” you will recall this thread and ODN in general with fondness.

    Consider if you will, Newtons cradle.



    The ultimate Mind Trap, is the impassable wall of separation between the meta-physical and the physical. I have often called this “access to logic”. There are in fact several walls, that trap the mind and separate it from the physical.

    1) Why things happen in the physical world.
    On naturalism, thought A is followed by thought B, not because of the content of the thought, but because of chemical necessity. Just as in Newtons Cradled above, the ball on the right can be assigned any “meaning” or “thought”, and it has no effect or force on how the physical balls act. This means that if the above cradle happens to represent a logical thought, it is nothing short of miraculous, for there is no naturalistic reason for it to represent a given thought.

    The question an atheist must ask himself, is why do any physical states not only represent an idea, but actually contain that idea.
    Scientific prediction- As we learn to understand the brain and how it works, we will find that specific chemical reactions, are not linked to a specific idea across the population, such that chemical A+B+C =/= thought Y. This is not to be confused with any kind of general reaction. Like chemical A inducing non specific thoughts of happiness. This I also not to be confused with “feelings”. If this is the case, it is a defeater for any hope of a naturalistic access to abstract thoughts.

    2) There is no physical mechanism to select proper logical thoughts from illogical thoughts.
    Because it is not the meta-physical corresponding idea that causes a set of physical reactions, there can be no purely physical process which selects a logical progression over an illogical progression. So that evolution when it is acting on a population, can not select right thinking over wrong thinking, it can only select right action. So that we as right thinking creatures are nothing short of miraculous.
    -Interlocutor 1- The evolutionist will say “But right thinking would produce better results, and thus be selected”.
    -Response- This is not the case, because there is not distinction and there are many more correct actions(IE ones that lead to survival) connected to incorrect thoughts. Especially, when the thought itself is not the cause of the action. (see Point #1). Further, if the thoughts are connected (which is not supported on naturalism) then there are still many more incorrect thoughts that lead to right actions, because illogical thoughts by necessity don't have to follow.
    Challenge- In order to sustain the Interlocutor #1. One must show that there is an evolutionary significant distinction. This of course would be very difficult, and I think it is ultimately impossible due to it being wrong. The largest challenge is that it is clear that logical thought is not necessary for survival. Animals do not reason, and yet thrive.

    On naturalism our experience is unintelligible. Our access to logic can not be consistently made sense of. The only proposed world view that does, is one that includes a spirit mind. A mind that can access the ideas and use logic because B actually does follow from A. The greatest mind trap of all, is that on naturalism, one is not really engaging in intellectual debate, but at best a series of chemical reactions that have nothing to do with the ideas supposedly being debated.
    To all the atheist who ask for evidence of the "super natural". Of some instance of our natural world being effected by some element that is beyond the natural world. This is it. Consciousness and access to logic can not be created in the natural world. Nothing in the natural world can ascribe "meaning" and meta-physical consequence to any given set of natural conditions, or arrangement of atoms. The physical is nothing more than a complex Newtons cradle. The Atheist statement of faith(for lack of a better term) "The cosmos is all there is, or was or ever will be." Is wrong, and we experience the falsification every moment.

    Exercise for home.

    I want you to imagine a dear love one, picture them in your mind. What color is their hair? What do they smell like? What does their voice sound like? Certainly, you have a vivid mental picture of them.
    Now, where did all that stuff occur? What physical process is responsible for “choosing” the specific loved one?
    This exercises is for the purpose of bringing to your attention that you experience a spiritual daily life.

    Links of possible interest -
    General review of the problem – Christian POV

    Review of the problem – Atheist POV

    – Preaching section
    This is why Christians say, that the atheist must sit in the lap of God in order to slap his face. The atheist must appeal to consciousness and logic, which he can not establish or justify his own use of. My response to those who have asked, “why do you believe in God”, has been “Because it is obvious”. For me reason Atheism fails to be a consistent and viable world view, is because it must consistently borrow from the ideas of Christianity, and make assumptions that do not make sense upon it's own self.
    The atheist rejects God on moral grounds, but can not establish morality other than in terms of personal preference. When the question of “Why is there evil in the world”, if taken to be understood as “why are there things I don't like in the world”, losses it's force. The atheist often portraits himself as being the most logical, but must take our access to logic and it's metaphysical force on faith, that contradicts his entire naturalistic world view.

    Thank you all for engaging with me. I have learned a lot here, from those on my side and those portraying the other side. Thank you for portraying the other side to me, it has been a special kind of education that one can not put a price on. Thank you Apok, for providing a forum for the discussion of these ideas. For creating a forge of reason, that pushed us towards civil discourse. My hope and prayer is that you will come to know and appreciate that you are created in the very image of God, and what that truly means.

    Did I win the internet? I have the most points.

    I know the front runners had to quit in order for me to reach the top, but in the end availability is the most valuable ability there is. Joking
    To serve man.



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