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  1. #201
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    One of us is sure not understanding Mican's position in this thread!
    " If you are going to argue that it's a social construct, then the burden is on you to show that it is, not me to show that it isn't."
    (Mican)
    It's you who aren't understanding. The "it" in my comment was transgenderism (I argue that it's not a social construct), not gender (I've made no statement about whether it's a social construct or not).

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    You are both on the side of political correctness is always the go to response. That is about where you two part ways on this subject IMHO (and there is a push for exactly what the Op says as apposed to everyone agreeing with you it's "largely a social construct"...)
    If you consider basic respect for others to be political correctness, I guess being for one is being for the other. However, I am against political correctness as I interpret the term. I consider political correctness to be about regimented speech codes and therefore one can respectfully say the "wrong word" or raise uncomfortable issues for a sincere sober discussion and still be in "violation". The most classic example of current political correctness that comes to mind is certain comedians being unwelcome on college campuses due to the fact that their acts might upset some and I think that's ridiculous.

    So I do not consider myself to be politically correct nor do I advocate it.

    Being progressive and respectful of all minorities is not inherently being for political correctness.
    Last edited by mican333; October 30th, 2019 at 07:48 AM.

  2. #202
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Then I would say that you are a very poor judge of my sincerity. Please keep such opinions to yourself in the future.
    What you believe, but if it smells, it smells.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But then you have not supported that transgenderism is being discussed during menstruation lessons.

    Again, I think it's more likely that there is a lesson on transgenderism where menstruation is discussed and during the lesson on menstruation, they are restricting the lesson to the strict biology.

    Maybe I'm right and maybe I'm wrong but again, the original burden is yours. If you are arguing that the ARE teaching about transgenderism during the lesson on menstruation, please support that.
    I did support this. I quoted from the OP where it specifically states when discussing menstruation.... Any inferences you are making beyond this are your responsibility to support.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    That seems to be sneaking in the premise that transgenderism is brought up when they are teaching about menstruation. That is not supported and therefore this argument is based on an unsupported premise.
    As noted above, your statement is not supported.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    It's not just suggested that there are new lessons discussing this; it explicitly says so. To quote:

    "School children will be taught that "all genders" can have periods in new sex education lessons"

    So there ARE new sex educations lesson where children are taught that all genders can have periods.
    A new lesson is not the same as a new section on transgenderism. Until you can support that they added an entirely new and separate section on trangsgenderism, your claim is unsupported. Again, the instruction from the district is that during discussions of menstruation then transgenderism will be discussed (the new lesson).

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    So I get that you think that it would be inappropriate to have a class that is suppose to be about the biological facts about menstruation and then talking about the relatively off-topic issue of transgenderism. But the OP does not say that it is happening and the most accurate interpretation of what is said is that the issue of boys having periods is being taught not in the menstruation lesson but a different (new) lesson.
    We disagree on what the OP is saying, but seem to agree it would be inappropriate. Great.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    So while I understand your concern, I see no support that what you are concerned about is happening and therefore it's not a valid reason to be against lesson. You need to support that they ACTUALLY are doing it wrong before you can criticize them for doing it wrong.
    At best, we can say that their instructions to teachers and the implementation is murky.


    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Straw man - I made no such contention. Here is my latest response to this issue - copied from my last post and was not directly responded to.


    I thought the underlying principle is that the students would essentially be forced to say "yes" to the question "can boys have periods" as in it WILL be on the test and they WILL have to say "yes" or their test score will suffer so they are in essence coerced into saying "yes" when asked.

    If that the is not the underlying principle or point of your argument then I don't know what the point is.
    First, no straw man has been committed. You have clearly argued that whether the information is or is not on the actual test is what matters. If that wasn't your rebuttal to my claim, then you would not make an argument about whether the material was physically on the test. Second, my argument is very simple. Any material taught in the classroom is expected to be learned by the students and the students are expected to treat the lesson as factual information such that, when tested, the answer should match material taught by the teacher. If the teacher says dogs go meow. Students will be expected to learn that dogs go meow. The test is merely the output for what the students are expected to have learned. Hence, anything which may be tested is materially equivalent to anything actually tested. If you have an issue with the material being on a test, which you have indicated that you do, then what difference is that same material should it not appear on the test. If your child comes home and tells you he has learnt that dogs go meow would you find yourself relieved that it was not on the test?


    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Since definitions are subjective, no one "knows" the definition of any word and people are free to disagree with any definition. But there is indeed a clear definition of "transgender" which is coherent enough to be used in both science and law. I mean there ARE laws regarding transgenderism so OBVIOUSLY there is enough agreement on what transgenderism is to make coherent laws regarding it. Likewise, I'm pretty sure that any medical scientific professional could explain what transgenderism is when asked and it will almost certainly be similar the dictionary definition that I provided in my last post.

    So I'm not sure what your point is here. While not everything is known about transgenderism, the basic concept is pretty clear to most people.

    If there's someone or some people who do not agree with the definition as most people understand it, so what?
    If you believe all definitions are subjective, please support this theory. I know plenty definitions for many words and if people disagree, they are objectively wrong.

    Please support or retract your claim that transgenderism is pretty clear to most people? Furthermore, do most people agree with your definition of the term?

    You claim it is clear to most people. Yet, the person I quoted as an authority on the matter, clearly disagrees with you.
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  3. #203
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    What you believe, but if it smells, it smells.
    '

    I'm really not interested in hearing your opinion on what smells. I think some of your arguments "smell", but I figure you aren't interested in hearing my opinions on how smelly your arguments are and sharing my opinions would not forward the debate, so I keep those opinions to myself. Please do likewise.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    I did support this. I quoted from the OP where it specifically states when discussing menstruation.... Any inferences you are making beyond this are your responsibility to support.
    Maybe you interpreted something in the OP to say that but I see nothing in there that says that during lessons on menstruation, transgenderism will be taught.

    Again, I interpret the part about "new lessons" to mean that there will be new lessons about transgenderism and that is where the issue will be raised. And admittedly, that is my interpretation so I'm not going to support that that is what is actually going to happen. But then I don't see you interpretation as being supported either.

    And the burden is yours. If what you are forwarding is more than a personal interpretation than please support this and show me where in the OP it actually says that is the case.

    Otherwise I am perfectly justified in rejecting your interpretation for my own and your argument is not supported.

    If you provided solid support earlier I apparently did not see it for what it was so you will need to forward it again.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    We disagree on what the OP is saying, but seem to agree it would be inappropriate. Great.
    I did not agree to that. As I've already said, I consider the issue whether it's appropriate or not to be irrelevant until its supported that it's actually happening.

    It's like if you were arguing that Trump's foreign policy is great and I don't challenge your assertion because I don't think it's relevant to the discussion. That is not the same as conceding to your argument that his policy is great.

    When it becomes relevant for me to address whether that would be appropriate is when I will forward a position whether it is or not.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    At best, we can say that their instructions to teachers and the implementation is murky.
    I would say our understanding of how the policy will be implemented is murky and therefore neither of us have a solid basis to support that they are doing anything inappropriate.

    The difference is I'm admitting that my interpretation is just and interpretation while you consider your interpretation to be support.




    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Second, my argument is very simple. Any material taught in the classroom is expected to be learned by the students and the students are expected to treat the lesson as factual information such that, when tested, the answer should match material taught by the teacher. If the teacher says dogs go meow. Students will be expected to learn that dogs go meow. The test is merely the output for what the students are expected to have learned. Hence, anything which may be tested is materially equivalent to anything actually tested. If you have an issue with the material being on a test, which you have indicated that you do, then what difference is that same material should it not appear on the test.
    I have not said that I have an issue with the material being on the test. And no, it's not to be expected that everything that the teacher says is something that students should be expected to be tested on. For example, it will likely be mentioned that biological females can have periods but since that information is so rudimentary, it would not be expected to be on a test after the first year of sex ed (if even then). And there is a very common question asked in class which is "Will this be on the test?" and sometimes the answer to that question is "no" and therefore students will not expect it to be on the test even though it is mentioned in class. So it is not true that whatever is said in class will be on the test.

    And I guess I need to ask - what SPECIFIC troubling thing do you think might be on the test?

    Earlier I mentioned that I thought the test question covering this issue might be something like:

    Transgendered males are:
    1. Biologically male
    2. Biologically female


    With the correct answer being 2.

    Now, is THAT problematic? If so, then let's debate that since I've taken the position that it's a likely test question.

    If it's not problematic, then what problematic thing are you expecting them to be tested on? If nothing, then what's the problem?


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    If you believe all definitions are subjective, please support this theory. I know plenty definitions for many words and if people disagree, they are objectively wrong.
    So let's say hypothetically that EVERYONE decided that canines are defined as cat. If definitions are subjective, then that would be the actual definition. If definitions are objective, then they would be demonstrably wrong (like everyone would be wrong if they say a dropped rock would rise instead of fall). So how would everyone be wrong if they changed the definition of dog to cat?


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Please support or retract your claim that transgenderism is pretty clear to most people? Furthermore, do most people agree with your definition of the term?
    When there is a dictionary definition of a word, that indicates that its the common understanding that that is what the word means. Besides that, you are shifting the burden. Unless you support that there is indeed widespread confusion on how transgenderism is defined, that position is rejected for lack of support.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    You claim it is clear to most people. Yet, the person I quoted as an authority on the matter, clearly disagrees with you.
    No, you cherry-picked a quote that you interpreted to mean that. Let's look at the first four paragraphs in whole.

    "Transgender" is an umbrella term that describes people whose gender identity or expression does not match the sex they were assigned at birth. For example, a transgender person may identify as a woman despite having been born with male genitalia.

    Nearly 700,000 adults in the United States identify as transgender, according to 2011 research by the Williams Institute at the University of California, Los Angeles. However, being transgender means different things to different people, according to the National Center for Transgender Equality (NCTE).

    "There's no one way to be transgender, and no one way for transgender people to look or feel about themselves," the organization says on its website.

    A person's internal sense of being male, female or something else is their gender identity. For cisgender, or non-transgender people, their gender identity matches their sex at birth. For transgender people, the two do not match.


    That does NOT say that people are generally confused on the definition of "transgender".
    Last edited by mican333; October 31st, 2019 at 07:18 AM.

  4. #204
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    Maybe you interpreted something in the OP to say that but I see nothing in there that says that during lessons on menstruation, transgenderism will be taught.

    Again, I interpret the part about "new lessons" to mean that there will be new lessons about transgenderism and that is where the issue will be raised. And admittedly, that is my interpretation so I'm not going to support that that is what is actually going to happen. But then I don't see you interpretation as being supported either.

    And the burden is yours. If what you are forwarding is more than a personal interpretation than please support this and show me where in the OP it actually says that is the case.

    Otherwise I am perfectly justified in rejecting your interpretation for my own and your argument is not supported.

    If you provided solid support earlier I apparently did not see it for what it was so you will need to forward it again.
    When I discuss smells, this is what I mean. I have quoted the OP twice and explained exactly how I was framing my argument. Now, if you'd like me to argue something else on a different point, you may ask me. But, I am under no obligation to agree. If I clearly state X means Y and wish me to argue that Z means Y, then you are trying to change the debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I did not agree to that. As I've already said, I consider the issue whether it's appropriate or not to be irrelevant until its supported that it's actually happening.

    It's like if you were arguing that Trump's foreign policy is great and I don't challenge your assertion because I don't think it's relevant to the discussion. That is not the same as conceding to your argument that his policy is great.

    When it becomes relevant for me to address whether that would be appropriate is when I will forward a position whether it is or not.
    Ok.... whatevs.


    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I would say our understanding of how the policy will be implemented is murky and therefore neither of us have a solid basis to support that they are doing anything inappropriate.
    However you wish to interpret it, go ahead. I explained how I interpret it and I explained my stance based on my interpretation. You have something to say about that, fine. Otherwise, there is nothing to discuss.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I have not said that I have an issue with the material being on the test. And no, it's not to be expected that everything that the teacher says is something that students should be expected to be tested on. For example, it will likely be mentioned that biological females can have periods but since that information is so rudimentary, it would not be expected to be on a test after the first year of sex ed (if even then). And there is a very common question asked in class which is "Will this be on the test?" and sometimes the answer to that question is "no" and therefore students will not expect it to be on the test even though it is mentioned in class. So it is not true that whatever is said in class will be on the test.
    So.... your big rebuttal here is, will it be on the test??? And you explain it won't be on the test because it would be common knowledge. Now, ignoring that the lesson on menstruation would assume who can have a period is common knowledge, let's unpack this statement. Because the teacher believes her students already "know" a specific piece of information, then the teacher is unlikely to put such a question on a test. So, if the teacher believes the students already "know" boys and girls can menstruate, she is unlikely to put it on the test. And if students aren't assumed to "know" this? In other words, the teacher already believes students share his/her ideological beliefs or the teacher will likely add the question on the test in order to increase the odds that they will learn said teacher's ideological beliefs.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And I guess I need to ask - what SPECIFIC troubling thing do you think might be on the test?

    Earlier I mentioned that I thought the test question covering this issue might be something like:

    Transgendered males are:
    1. Biologically male
    2. Biologically female


    With the correct answer being 2.

    Now, is THAT problematic? If so, then let's debate that since I've taken the position that it's a likely test question.

    If it's not problematic, then what problematic thing are you expecting them to be tested on? If nothing, then what's the problem?
    I just cannot quite wrap my head around how such a question is relevant to a discussion on menstruation.


    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    So let's say hypothetically that EVERYONE decided that canines are defined as cat. If definitions are subjective, then that would be the actual definition. If definitions are objective, then they would be demonstrably wrong (like everyone would be wrong if they say a dropped rock would rise instead of fall). So how would everyone be wrong if they changed the definition of dog to cat?
    You mean the unique sounds we make to identify a dog or a cat is subjective. Sure, we could pronounce dog as cat and words are certainly constructs. They don't generally emanate from nature. Yet, once we assign a certain sound to an object or idea or action, then the word is no longer subjective. It becomes an objective truth. The definition of subjective is "based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions."
    After hundreds of years of English speakers calling dogs, dogs, we can objectively say they are dogs. No one would say, eh, look at that animal there {a goat}, I think them dogs from now on. Someone could do that, but then a) no one would know what he was talking about and b) everyone would call him crazy. Why? Cause he is trying to make something objective into something subjective. Your example is flawed. It would not be based on personal feelings, but on a group decision (i.e. everybody).

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    When there is a dictionary definition of a word, that indicates that its the common understanding that that is what the word means. Besides that, you are shifting the burden. Unless you support that there is indeed widespread confusion on how transgenderism is defined, that position is rejected for lack of support.
    You made the claim Mican. You said everyone knows and agrees. I am asking you to support your claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    No, you cherry-picked a quote that you interpreted to mean that. Let's look at the first four paragraphs in whole.

    "Transgender" is an umbrella term that describes people whose gender identity or expression does not match the sex they were assigned at birth. For example, a transgender person may identify as a woman despite having been born with male genitalia.

    Nearly 700,000 adults in the United States identify as transgender, according to 2011 research by the Williams Institute at the University of California, Los Angeles. However, being transgender means different things to different people, according to the National Center for Transgender Equality (NCTE).

    "There's no one way to be transgender, and no one way for transgender people to look or feel about themselves," the organization says on its website.

    A person's internal sense of being male, female or something else is their gender identity. For cisgender, or non-transgender people, their gender identity matches their sex at birth. For transgender people, the two do not match.


    That does NOT say that people are generally confused on the definition of "transgender".
    It quite rightly does say that. Immediately after it states how many people identify as trans, it states that the word means different things to different people. I am not cherry picking in the slightest and the quote you have been kind enough to add supports my position. It notes that gender identity (the key characteristic of being trans) includes male, female, and a nebulous "something else". What the heck does that even mean? You asked earlier whether a trans male was a biological man or a biological woman. Isn't the answer c. Any of the above? After all, maybe the trans male believed he was a born biological male but then became a gendered woman who then transitioned back to a gendered male. It is all a word salad really.
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  5. #205
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Let me try to break it down a bit if I can....
    Please do

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Gender is a social construct.
    As in this term means one can say/choose/whatever what "sex" they "are" (god this makes trying to communicate difficult).

    Agreed AGAIN! Woop Woop!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Being Transgender is not a social construct
    I'm not sure this is possible given how you are defining it?...

    ---------- Post added at 06:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:04 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    It's you who aren't understanding. The "it" in my comment was transgenderism (I argue that it's not a social construct), not gender (I've made no statement about whether it's a social construct or not).
    Hmmm, I think you have but,

    please tell me how the two differ?
    IOW, how can "transgender" not reference gender when defining it?
    or
    how does adding "trans" change the word "transgender" as to not be part of gender by definition?

  6. #206
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    please tell me how the two differ?
    IOW, how can "transgender" not reference gender when defining it?
    or
    how does adding "trans" change the word "transgender" as to not be part of gender by definition?
    Unfortunately, those questions don't make much sense to me.

    In regards to the first question, you seem to be saying that transgender is defining gender.

    The second question seems to be saying that transgender is part of gender.

    I assume you have a point to make. How about stating it directly instead of asking me questions. And if you want to know how the words differ, I'd suggest looking up the definitions in a dictionary (which is a good starting point for an argument about how the words relate to each other). But I think if you want to make some kind of point regarding the connection of these words, you need to make your argument directly. As it is, I don't know what your point so I don't how to coherently respond to it.
    Last edited by mican333; October 31st, 2019 at 08:18 AM.

  7. #207
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    When I discuss smells, this is what I mean. *I have quoted the OP twice and explained exactly how I was framing my argument. *Now, if you'd like me to argue something else on a different point, you may ask me. *But, I am under no obligation to agree. *If I clearly state X means Y and wish me to argue that Z means Y, then you are trying to change the debate.
    Or it might mean that we are having a sincere misunderstanding of what the argument is. Does that possibility occur to you?

    Again, if you want to think that it's not some honest miscommunication and that I'm intentionally doing this or that, think what you want. But I honestly don't care to hear such thoughts nor debate whether you are correct in your assumptions or not. So again, please keep such thoughts to yourself.

    I occasionally have suspicions that you aren't always debating honestly. For example, when you make summary arguments instead of addressing every point, it looks like you might be dodging certain points of mine. So it "reeks" of avoiding argument. But then I decide that instead of leveling unsupportable accusations against you just because I think it something "smells", I instead keep these suspicions to myself.

    Now assuming you would prefer that I keep these suspicions to myself when I have them, please do likewise.

    I don't care what you think smells and voicing your unsupported opinions on the matter do not forward the debate. So please keep such thoughts to yourself - especially if you want me to do likewise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    However you wish to interpret it, go ahead. *I explained how I interpret it and I explained my stance based on my interpretation. *You have something to say about that, fine. *Otherwise, there is nothing to discuss.
    I do have something to say. Interpretation is not support. Therefore you have not supported that transgenderism is being taught in menstruation class and therefore this premise will not be accepted in this debate until you do support it.

    As long as we recognize that that premise is not supported, there is nothing more to discuss regarding it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    So.... your big rebuttal here is, will it be on the test???
    No. I'm saying that you are incorrect in your statement that students can be expected to be tested on everything mentioned in class. Some stuff will be known in advance to not be on the test.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    And you explain it won't be on the test because it would be common knowledge. *Now, ignoring that the lesson on menstruation would assume who can have a period is common knowledge, let's unpack this statement. *Because the teacher believes her students already "know" a specific piece of information, then the teacher is unlikely to put such a question on a test. *So, if the teacher believes the students already "know" boys and girls can menstruate, she is unlikely to put it on the test. *And if students aren't assumed to "know" this? *In other words, the teacher already believes students share his/her ideological beliefs or the teacher will likely add the question on the test in order to increase the odds that they will learn said teacher's ideological beliefs.
    You are smuggling the premise that students are being taught ideological beliefs.

    When that is supported and likewise shown to be problematic (since "treat others with respect" may qualify as an ideological belief and I don't think it's problematic to impart that in a class, just like an anti-rape view is likewise ideological but also appropriate to forward in sex ed), I will address it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    I just cannot quite wrap my head around how such a question is relevant to a discussion on menstruation.
    I didn't say it was. I am saying that would expect that question to be part of the discussion of transgenderism and not be part of the menstruation lesson.

    As established, there is no valid support that transgenderism will be addressed during a menstruation lesson. Your view that it will be is your interpretation and not actual support.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    You mean the unique sounds we make to identify a dog or a cat is subjective. *Sure, we could pronounce dog as cat and words are certainly constructs. *They don't generally emanate from nature. *Yet, once we assign a certain sound to an object or idea or action, then the word is no longer subjective. *It becomes an objective truth. *The definition of subjective is "based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions."
    After hundreds] of years of English speakers calling dogs, dogs, we can objectively say they are dogs. *No one would say, eh, look at that animal there {a goat}, I think them dogs from now on. *Someone could do that, but then a) no one would know what he was talking about and b) everyone would call him crazy. *Why? *Cause he is trying to make something objective into something subjective. *Your example is flawed. *It would not be based on personal feelings, but on a group decision (i.e. everybody).
    So if one person thinks it, it's subjective but if everyone thinks it, it's objective?

    That's wrong. No matter how many or how few people think it, if it's a product of human thought and perception, it's subjective.

    As an example of something objective, when everyone thought the world was flat, it was an objective fact that the word was round and therefore everyone was wrong because their thoughts contradicted an objective fact.

    But if everyone thinks that the definition of canine is "cat", then the definition of canine, from then on, IS "cat" and that in no way contradicts any objective fact.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    You made the claim Mican. *You said everyone knows and agrees. *I am asking you to support your claim.
    I'm not saying literally everyone agrees.* But I am saying that there is a dictionary definition that corresponds to how pretty much everyone who discusses transgenderism uses the word.* We are having a coherent conversation about it because we both abide by the definition.* There are coherent laws about transgenderism because the legislators know what the term means.* It is treatable in the medical establishment because they know what the word means.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    It quite rightly does say that. *Immediately after it states how many people identify as trans, it states that the word means different things to different people. *I am not cherry picking in the slightest and the quote you have been kind enough to add supports my position. It notes that gender identity (the key characteristic of being trans) includes male, female, and a nebulous "something else". *What the heck does that even mean? *You asked earlier whether a trans male was a biological man or a biological woman. *Isn't the answer c. Any of the above? *After all, maybe the trans male believed he was a born biological male but then became a gendered woman who then transitioned back to a gendered male. *It is all a word salad really.
    Then how do you explain the first sentence in the article which says:
    "transgender" is an umbrella term that describes people whose gender identity or expression does not match the sex they were assigned at birth."
    So the article is BOTH providing a definition of the term and then saying that no one knows what the term means?*

    I interpret the sentence that you are referring to to mean that there is a wide umbrella of ways that people can be transgendered so to them, the specifics are different for each ot them.* This I can personally confirm as I also know a non-binary person who is transgender but likewise different than my trans male friend.

    Going by your interpretation, the article is contradicting itself so I don't agree with your interpretation.* Not only does it render the article contradictory, it contradicts the rather obvious point I made that there is a coherent definition that is being used in both law and medicine as well as debates like this.

    You do concede that the law and medicine have a clear enough understanding of what transgenderism is to address it in their respective fields.* Right?* If not, please explain how they can functionally use the term with no clear definition of what it means.
    Last edited by mican333; November 1st, 2019 at 09:09 AM.

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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Unfortunately, those questions don't make much sense to me.

    In regards to the first question, you seem to be saying that transgender is defining gender.

    The second question seems to be saying that transgender is part of gender.

    I assume you have a point to make. How about stating it directly instead of asking me questions. And if you want to know how the words differ, I'd suggest looking up the definitions in a dictionary (which is a good starting point for an argument about how the words relate to each other). But I think if you want to make some kind of point regarding the connection of these words, you need to make your argument directly. As it is, I don't know what your point so I don't how to coherently respond to it.
    You said one is a social construct, one is not.

    I asked how they differ. Hardly a trick question.

    How can you define "transgender" without using "gender" in the definition?

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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    You said one is a social construct, one is not.
    No I didn't. Here was my original response:

    "The "it" in my comment was transgenderism (I argue that it's not a social construct), not gender (I've made no statement about whether it's a social construct or not)."

    So I did not say that gender is a social construct. I said nothing about it either way. That's not to say that I have no position on the matter but your question is not addressing any argument that I've actually made on this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    I asked how they differ. Hardly a trick question.
    No, you asked me:

    1. How can "transgender" not reference gender when defining it?

    2. How does adding "trans" change the word "transgender" as to not be part of gender by definition?

    Those don't appear to be the same questions as "How to they differ" and unlike "How do they differ", I'm honestly confused on what you are asking with those questions.

    Even "How do they differ" is very vague. I mean I could answer "One has the word 'trans' in it and other does not" as an answer which is a valid response to your question but clearly would not correspond to the point you are attempting to get across with that question.

    So it seems pretty clear that you need to make your point with an assertive statement instead of trying to wrangle me into giving you the response you want by asking me those questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    How can you define "transgender" without using "gender" in the definition?
    I didn't say you could. Again, I've made no such argument. It's pretty clear that you have a point to make regarding the relationship between the two words. So you should state your argument instead of asking me questions in regard to your point before you've made it.

    Based on your questions, I believe I know the point you are trying to forward and it's:

    It's generally accepted that gender is a social construct. Obviously "gender" is a central part of the definition of "transgender" so if gender is a social construct, then transgender must be a social construct also.

    If that is indeed your argument, please confirm that it is and I will respond to it. If it's not your argument then please tell me what your argument is.
    Last edited by mican333; November 1st, 2019 at 07:40 PM.

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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    As in this term means one can say/choose/whatever what "sex" they "are" (god this makes trying to communicate difficult).
    No, not really.

    Here is the thing. Gender and Sex had more or less the same meaning for quite a while. In the 60s there was a liberalization of these ideas to say that lif wasn't so black and white and they needed a way to distinguish the social aspects of sex/gender from the biological ones. Gender was used to talk about the social side of the coin and Sex the physical side of it.

    It is a useful distinction so there's been something of a linguistic/cultural battle to make this distinction stick. Whatever you think of the use of the words, in this kind of discussion, it really helps to distinguish the two ideas. So its really useful to treat gender as social, and sex as biological. That said, you can't really have the social aspect without referencing the biological aspect.

    So.... for the sake of clear communication.....

    Let's say Gender = social affectation / Sex = biological

    Further, let's make another distinction for the same of clarity

    Transgender = Any social affectation that is different than the normative expression of biological sex in the culture.
    Transexual = A biological disparity variant from the binary male/female paradigm including the manmade physical transformation of the body

    OK, using that language, let me re-phrase.....

    Many transgender people are in fact transexual as well. This is manifested in a disparity between their genitalia and their inborn mental image of their own "correct" sex identity. This leads them to adopt a transgendered identity in society.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  11. #211
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Or it might mean that we are having a sincere misunderstanding of what the argument is. Does that possibility occur to you?

    Again, if you want to think that it's not some honest miscommunication and that I'm intentionally doing this or that, think what you want. But I honestly don't care to hear such thoughts nor debate whether you are correct in your assumptions or not. So again, please keep such thoughts to yourself.

    I occasionally have suspicions that you aren't always debating honestly. For example, when you make summary arguments instead of addressing every point, it looks like you might be dodging certain points of mine. So it "reeks" of avoiding argument. But then I decide that instead of leveling unsupportable accusations against you just because I think it something "smells", I instead keep these suspicions to myself.

    Now assuming you would prefer that I keep these suspicions to myself when I have them, please do likewise.
    If you are telling me it is a miscommunication issue, so be it.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I do have something to say. Interpretation is not support. Therefore you have not supported that transgenderism is being taught in menstruation class and therefore this premise will not be accepted in this debate until you do support it.

    As long as we recognize that that premise is not supported, there is nothing more to discuss regarding it.
    Whether you feel it is or is not supported is unimportant. It is the condition I've set for my argument. Whether you find it true or not does not matter.


    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    No. I'm saying that you are incorrect in your statement that students can be expected to be tested on everything mentioned in class. Some stuff will be known in advance to not be on the test.

    You are smuggling the premise that students are being taught ideological beliefs.

    When that is supported and likewise shown to be problematic (since "treat others with respect" may qualify as an ideological belief and I don't think it's problematic to impart that in a class, just like an anti-rape view is likewise ideological but also appropriate to forward in sex ed), I will address it.
    Whether one believes boys and girls can have periods go directly to their belief on what transgender means. It is not universally agreed that it is appropriate to call a transgender person that identifies as female, she, for instance. That decision is based on a person's ideological view. So, if the teacher's lesson is teaching that boys and girls can have periods, then that teacher is asking students to learn a particular ideology. Would you have an issue with a teacher who taught that only girls can have periods? There is a biological truth to this statement, but from our discussion, you clearly don't agree with this view being taught. However, I doubt strongly that you actually disagree with the basic truth itself as it relates to biology. Rather, you prefer a lesson which includes your ideological beliefs as it pertains to gender.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    I didn't say it was. I am saying that would expect that question to be part of the discussion of transgenderism and not be part of the menstruation lesson.

    As established, there is no valid support that transgenderism will be addressed during a menstruation lesson. Your view that it will be is your interpretation and not actual support.
    I am not going to address this as it is isn't topical to my argument.


    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    So if one person thinks it, it's subjective but if everyone thinks it, it's objective?

    That's wrong. No matter how many or how few people think it, if it's a product of human thought and perception, it's subjective.

    As an example of something objective, when everyone thought the world was flat, it was an objective fact that the word was round and therefore everyone was wrong because their thoughts contradicted an objective fact.

    But if everyone thinks that the definition of canine is "cat", then the definition of canine, from then on, IS "cat" and that in no way contradicts any objective fact.

    I'm not saying literally everyone agrees.* But I am saying that there is a dictionary definition that corresponds to how pretty much everyone who discusses transgenderism uses the word.* We are having a coherent conversation about it because we both abide by the definition.* There are coherent laws about transgenderism because the legislators know what the term means.* It is treatable in the medical establishment because they know what the word means.
    I will concede the definition of words is subjective. As is the word transgender. And, just because a dictionary has a definition, does not mean it is well understood or that everyone agrees on what it means. And, it is funny you try to claim that the law and medicine have an understanding of the term. There is no legal definition of what it means and that is one reason why any laws which attempt to regulate or help transgender individuals fails. The medical community, likewise, has no diagnosis that defines transgenderism. There is a fight, right now, within the medical community and among activists, for example, on whether children may be considered transgender and what should be done about them.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Then how do you explain the first sentence in the article which says:
    "transgender" is an umbrella term that describes people whose gender identity or expression does not match the sex they were assigned at birth."
    So the article is BOTH providing a definition of the term and then saying that no one knows what the term means?*

    I interpret the sentence that you are referring to to mean that there is a wide umbrella of ways that people can be transgendered so to them, the specifics are different for each ot them.* This I can personally confirm as I also know a non-binary person who is transgender but likewise different than my trans male friend.

    Going by your interpretation, the article is contradicting itself so I don't agree with your interpretation.* Not only does it render the article contradictory, it contradicts the rather obvious point I made that there is a coherent definition that is being used in both law and medicine as well as debates like this.
    The article probably does contradict itself. You are free to interpret any sentence as you like. There is absolutely no reason to believe your interpretation makes more sense than mine. In light of how nebulous the definition of transgender is, my interpretation certainly seems more valid. Your anecdotal trans friend. What makes them trans? Is it a declaration? A feeling? How others perceive them? Is it on the basis of some sort of diagnostic set? The confusion is that no one can answer that question satisfactorily. Everyone defines the word differently which is what the article stated.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    You do concede that the law and medicine have a clear enough understanding of what transgenderism is to address it in their respective fields.* Right?* If not, please explain how they can functionally use the term with no clear definition of what it means.
    Where are they functionally using this term in law and medicine? Give me an example and maybe I can address your claim. As I have noted before, to my knowledge, there is no legal definition of what being transgender means.

    ---------- Post added at 02:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:37 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    No, not really.

    Here is the thing. Gender and Sex had more or less the same meaning for quite a while. In the 60s there was a liberalization of these ideas to say that lif wasn't so black and white and they needed a way to distinguish the social aspects of sex/gender from the biological ones. Gender was used to talk about the social side of the coin and Sex the physical side of it.
    Regarding your history lesson, I ask respectfully, are you sure this is what happened?
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    If you are telling me it is a miscommunication issue, so be it.
    What I'm telling is to keep your opinions about my debating to yourself. And I'll do the same.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Whether you feel it is or is not supported is unimportant. It is the condition I've set for my argument. Whether you find it true or not does not matter.
    Then your argument is not relevant to what is actually happening. You can't criticize the school for doing X until you support that X is happening.

    I mean I'm firmly against a school waterboarding its students as a form of punishment. But I can't use that objection to criticize a particular school until I support that the school is in fact waterboarding students.

    So instead of rejecting your argument as unsupported I reject it as irrelevant.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Whether one believes boys and girls can have periods go directly to their belief on what transgender means. It is not universally agreed that it is appropriate to call a transgender person that identifies as female, she, for instance. That decision is based on a person's ideological view. So, if the teacher's lesson is teaching that boys and girls can have periods, then that teacher is asking students to learn a particular ideology. Would you have an issue with a teacher who taught that only girls can have periods? There is a biological truth to this statement, but from our discussion, you clearly don't agree with this view being taught. However, I doubt strongly that you actually disagree with the basic truth itself as it relates to biology. Rather, you prefer a lesson which includes your ideological beliefs as it pertains to gender.
    I'm all for some ideological views being presented where they are appropriate. For example, a school teaching that sex should be consensual is an ideological view and is fine to teach in school. And I am also for instructing students that transgender males should be considered males and while that is an ideological view, I don't see a problem for there is no non-ideological way to approach the issue.

    When it comes to the issue of whether transgender males should be considered boys, there are only three options.
    1. They are boys
    2. They are not boys
    3. Nothing should be said about it either way.

    Every one of those options is ideological so one cannot criticize one for taking an ideological position for it is impossible not to. And of course I choose the ideological position of point 1. If you want to criticize and debate that, that's fine. Pick 2 or 3 to back and let's debate whether we should go with 1 or one of the other options.

    But your argument, as far as I can tell, is not that we should not teach 1, but that it should not be taught during a lesson that is dedicated to the biological facts of menstruation. And my response to that is you have to support that that is actually happening before that premise can be used to criticize the school, just like I would need to show that a school is engaging in waterboarding before I can criticize them for it.

    I mean you are arguing that they are doing something wrong, correct?

    So in case there's a miscommunication happening between us, what exactly is the school doing wrong?


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    I will concede the definition of words is subjective. As is the word transgender. And, just because a dictionary has a definition, does not mean it is well understood or that everyone agrees on what it means. And, it is funny you try to claim that the law and medicine have an understanding of the term. There is no legal definition of what it means and that is one reason why any laws which attempt to regulate or help transgender individuals fails. The medical community, likewise, has no diagnosis that defines transgenderism. There is a fight, right now, within the medical community and among activists, for example, on whether children may be considered transgender and what should be done about them.
    Legislative:

    "As of 2018, 22 states feature legislation that prohibit discrimination based on gender identity in either employment, housing, and/or public accommodations. None of these state laws has ever been defeated at the ballot box; the first statewide referendum on repealing existing protections for transgender people[88] In October 2016 within Massachusetts, anti-transgender activists submitted the minimum number of signatures necessary, to the Secretary of the Commonwealth, to put the law up for repeal on a statewide ballot measure. Voters decided on November 6, 2018 to retain the law, with 67.8% in favor of upholding law, and 32.2% opposed. The Massachusetts Gender Identity Anti-Discrimination Initiative was the first-ever statewide ballot question of its kind in the United States."

    How could there be protections for transgender people if such a thing does not legally exist?

    And there is a medical condition known of body dysphoria which is often suffered by transgender people, most famously by Bruce/Katlyn Jenner. She was medically recognized as transgender and treated.

    But regardless, there CLEARLY is a coherent definition of transgender. We are using it right now. The law and medical community both deal with transgendered people so they likewise must know enough to have coherent policies and practices regarding them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    The article probably does contradict itself. You are free to interpret any sentence as you like. There is absolutely no reason to believe your interpretation makes more sense than mine. In light of how nebulous the definition of transgender is, my interpretation certainly seems more valid. Your anecdotal trans friend. What makes them trans? Is it a declaration? A feeling? How others perceive them? Is it on the basis of some sort of diagnostic set? The confusion is that no one can answer that question satisfactorily. Everyone defines the word differently which is what the article stated.
    But then I'm not interested in your interpretation. Interpretation is not support and therefore you have not used the article to support that transgenderism has no definition.

    I have supported that it has a definition by providing an actual dictionary definition.

    So I have provided support that it has a definition and you have provided an article that directly gives a description of transgenderism in the first paragraph which you have ignored to cherry-pick (yes, cherry pick) a later paragraph which I interpret to say that there is a range of ways that people can be transgender but does not contradict the opening paragraph. So this article does not support your assertion.

    So if you have some proper support, please share it.

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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    What I'm telling is to keep your opinions about my debating to yourself. And I'll do the same.
    If I feel you are being insincere, I am gonna call you on it. If you tell me it is just a miscommunication, I'll respond accordingly.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Then your argument is not relevant to what is actually happening. You can't criticize the school for doing X until you support that X is happening.

    I mean I'm firmly against a school waterboarding its students as a form of punishment. But I can't use that objection to criticize a particular school until I support that the school is in fact waterboarding students.

    So instead of rejecting your argument as unsupported I reject it as irrelevant.
    You cannot say what is really happening. I supported why my interpretation is likely. Your rebuttal has been to offer a flimsy definition of lesson which, itself, Neither of us can be 100% sure. Your rebuttal is to claim that lesson means something which it may or may not mean. I explained this already. I quoted from the OP whereby it stated that when discussing menstruation... If you feel my interpretation is incorrect or impossible, why are you even debating me on this?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I'm all for some ideological views being presented where they are appropriate. For example, a school teaching that sex should be consensual is an ideological view and is fine to teach in school. And I am also for instructing students that transgender males should be considered males and while that is an ideological view, I don't see a problem for there is no non-ideological way to approach the issue.

    When it comes to the issue of whether transgender males should be considered boys, there are only three options.
    1. They are boys
    2. They are not boys
    3. Nothing should be said about it either way.
    Or maybe there is option #4. It is complex and people disagree on the answer. Or, maybe there is more depth, such as, how do we determine someone is transgender in the first place? Are all people who claim to be transgender males really transgender males? Can someone be called transgender even if they do not accept that label? And what does any of this have to do with menstruation?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Every one of those options is ideological so one cannot criticize one for taking an ideological position for it is impossible not to. And of course I choose the ideological position of point 1. If you want to criticize and debate that, that's fine. Pick 2 or 3 to back and let's debate whether we should go with 1 or one of the other options.
    And my argument was not that the classroom must be devoid of all ideological viewpoints. My argument is that when teaching biological functions, introducing ideology is inappropriate and unnecessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But your argument, as far as I can tell, is not that we should not teach 1, but that it should not be taught during a lesson that is dedicated to the biological facts of menstruation. And my response to that is you have to support that that is actually happening before that premise can be used to criticize the school, just like I would need to show that a school is engaging in waterboarding before I can criticize them for it.
    I believe I made the case that it is likely that they are introducing these lessons during a lesson on menstruation. If they aren't, then obviously, my arguments do not apply. It is far different than me just pulling some random argument out of the air such as whether schools should engage in waterboarding. While there is no reason to believe they are engaging in waterboarding, it is just as unlikely as not that they are teaching about transgenderism while teaching about menstruation. You may disagree, but you have not offered anything to
    demonstrate I am wrong. So, you are making a false equivalency.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I mean you are arguing that they are doing something wrong, correct?

    So in case there's a miscommunication happening between us, what exactly is the school doing wrong?
    I am arguing that the school's behavior, as I am interpreting the OP, is wrong.


    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Legislative:

    "As of 2018, 22 states feature legislation that prohibit discrimination based on gender identity in either employment, housing, and/or public accommodations. None of these state laws has ever been defeated at the ballot box; the first statewide referendum on repealing existing protections for transgender people[88] In October 2016 within Massachusetts, anti-transgender activists submitted the minimum number of signatures necessary, to the Secretary of the Commonwealth, to put the law up for repeal on a statewide ballot measure. Voters decided on November 6, 2018 to retain the law, with 67.8% in favor of upholding law, and 32.2% opposed. The Massachusetts Gender Identity Anti-Discrimination Initiative was the first-ever statewide ballot question of its kind in the United States."

    How could there be protections for transgender people if such a thing does not legally exist?
    That's a great question. How can there be indeed? Now, show me the legal definition of transgender. For example, there is a legal definition of a child
    https://thelawdictionary.org/child/

    There is no such entry for transgender. You are arguing that because a law claims to protect transgender people that transgender has a legal meaning ipso facto and this is simply not the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And there is a medical condition known of body dysphoria which is often suffered by transgender people, most famously by Bruce/Katlyn Jenner. She was medically recognized as transgender and treated.
    No. She he was medically diagnosed as having some sort of dysphoria. Transgender is a social label, not a medical label.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But regardless, there CLEARLY is a coherent definition of transgender. We are using it right now. The law and medical community both deal with transgendered people so they likewise must know enough to have coherent policies and practices regarding them.
    Are we using it right now? We are using the word. Is there any sort of coherence or agreement on what the word actually means?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But then I'm not interested in your interpretation. Interpretation is not support and therefore you have not used the article to support that transgenderism has no definition.

    I have supported that it has a definition by providing an actual dictionary definition.
    I have demonstrated it has no legal or medical definition. As you said, words are subjective. And, being a relatively new word, there is little agreement on what it means other than as a vague umbrella term which different people take to mean different things.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    So I have provided support that it has a definition and you have provided an article that directly gives a description of transgenderism in the first paragraph which you have ignored to cherry-pick (yes, cherry pick) a later paragraph which I interpret to say that there is a range of ways that people can be transgender but does not contradict the opening paragraph. So this article does not support your assertion.

    So if you have some proper support, please share it.
    You can repeat your claim, but it does not make it true. You have not offered a compelling argument that transgender has a meaningful definition that everyone agrees upon.
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    No, not really.
    I would like to believe this but this thread shows otherwise...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    It is a useful distinction so there's been something of a linguistic/cultural battle to make this distinction stick.
    1. In what way is "it" useful?
    2. If it is useful, why the "battle"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Whatever you think of the use of the words, in this kind of discussion, it really helps to distinguish the two ideas. So its really useful to treat gender as social, and sex as biological. That said, you can't really have the social aspect without referencing the biological aspect.
    It serves to confuse language...


    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    So.... for the sake of clear communication.....
    That would be nice but unlikely....

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Let's say Gender = social affectation / Sex = biological
    Or social construct based on?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Further, let's make another distinction for the same of clarity

    Transgender = Any social affectation that is different than the normative expression of biological sex in the culture.
    Transexual = A biological disparity variant from the binary male/female paradigm including the manmade physical transformation of the body
    Social construct, but let people act/dress/behave as whatever sex as long as others rights are not infringed.
    Agreed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    OK, using that language, let me re-phrase.....

    Many transgender people are in fact transexual as well. This is manifested in a disparity between their genitalia and their inborn mental image of their own "correct" sex identity. This leads them to adopt a transgendered identity in society.

    We are back to a similarity with alcoholism here it seems. Why should we not try to help these people (should they desire)?

    I really don't think most people care if a guy dresses like a girl wants to be called one and that is not what this thread is about.

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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    If I feel you are being insincere, I am gonna call you on it.
    Okay. But that's just a personal attack that in no way forwards the debate.

    I feel that you are doing that because you know you are bested in the actual content of the debate, are frustrated by that, and therefore are resorting to person attacks like accusing me of being insincere. Of course I can't prove that that is the case (just like you can't prove that what you feel is accurate) but if I feel that you doing that, I am gonna call you on it. If you think calling each other out over our personal feelings is appropriate, then I guess I'll do it too.

    Or we can agree to not engage in such crap and just debate the relevant issues to debate. Your call.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    You cannot say what is really happening. I supported why my interpretation is likely. Your rebuttal has been to offer a flimsy definition of lesson which, itself
    No, my rebuttal is to tell you that you have not supported your argument that your interpretation is correct. We've already established that it is just your interpretation and as interpretation is not support, you have not supported that that is what is happening and therefore it is not accepted in this debate that it is.

    In fact, I Challenge to support a claim. you to SUPPORT OR RETRACT that the school is teaching about transgenderism during a lesson that is typically reserved for the biological facts of menstruation.

    Do not repeat that claim unless you have support for it.

    And claims of prior support is not support. If support does exist in a previous post, you will need to paste it into your response.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Or maybe there is option #4. It is complex and people disagree on the answer. Or, maybe there is more depth, such as, how do we determine someone is transgender in the first place? Are all people who claim to be transgender males really transgender males? Can someone be called transgender even if they do not accept that label? And what does any of this have to do with menstruation?
    Okay, but what fourth option are you referring to? You just asked a bunch of questions and they do not equate a valid alternative to:

    1. They are boys
    2. They are not boys
    3. Nothing should be said about it either way.

    If your questions do not lead to the conclusion that they are boys, then it leads to the conclusion that they are not boys and therefore is option 2. If your questions don't address the issue of whether they are boys or not, then it's option 3.

    And even if there is indeed a fourth option, it is not free of ideology either so again, there is no way to avoid ideology when addressing it and therefore it is not a valid criticism to forward that an ideological perspective if being forwarded. It can't can't be avoided.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    And my argument was not that the classroom must be devoid of all ideological viewpoints. My argument is that when teaching biological functions, introducing ideology is inappropriate and unnecessary.
    But until you support that that is happening, as you have been challenged to above, you can't criticize the school for doing that just like I can't criticize them for waterboarding students.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    I believe I made the case that it is likely that they are introducing these lessons during a lesson on menstruation.
    And I believe you haven't. Hence the challenge above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    If they aren't, then obviously, my arguments do not apply. It is far different than me just pulling some random argument out of the air such as whether schools should engage in waterboarding. While there is no reason to believe they are engaging in waterboarding, it is just as unlikely as not that they are teaching about transgenderism while teaching about menstruation. You may disagree, but you have not offered anything to
    demonstrate I am wrong. So, you are making a false equivalency.
    Either you have crossed the threshold of supporting that "it" is happening or you haven't. And just like I haven't supported that they are waterboarding, you have not supported that they are teaching about transgenderism during a menstruation lesson. So no, it's not a false equivalency. We have each provided something that we haven't supported to be true and therefore cannot criticize the school for doing it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    [/B]That's a great question. How can there be indeed? Now, show me the legal definition of transgender. For example, there is a legal definition of a child
    https://thelawdictionary.org/child/

    There is no such entry for transgender. You are arguing that because a law claims to protect transgender people that transgender has a legal meaning ipso facto and this is simply not the case.
    Because you say so?

    Common sense says that you can't have a law protecting X if X does not technically exist.

    And besides that, I can provide a definition for transgender from a legal dictionary:

    "Definition from Nolo’s Plain-English Law Dictionary

    The state of a person's gender identity (self-identification as male or female) not matching their assigned sex at birth. (See also: transsexual)".


    https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/transgender



    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    No. She he was medically diagnosed as having some sort of dysphoria. Transgender is a social label, not a medical label.
    Support that assertion, please.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Are we using it right now? We are using the word. Is there any sort of coherence or agreement on what the word actually means?

    If there wasn't, there wouldn't be a dictionary definition. But then there is a dictionary definition.

    "of, relating to, or being a person whose gender identity differs from the sex the person had or was identified as having at birth"

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transgender

    Which, from all appearances, is the definition used in both law and medicine.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    I have demonstrated it has no legal or medical definition. As you said, words are subjective. And, being a relatively new word, there is little agreement on what it means other than as a vague umbrella term which different people take to mean different things.
    You have not supported that. The article you used for "support" either directly contradicted itself therefore making it an invalid use of support or you misinterpreted what the quoted paragraph said (which I believe is what happened).

    And I believe what you label "vague umbrella term" can be translated to "general definition". I mean a "term used to describe something" is pretty much what a definition is.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    You can repeat your claim, but it does not make it true. You have not offered a compelling argument that transgender has a meaningful definition that everyone agrees upon.
    Actually, providing a dictionary definition meets that burden. Unless you are setting some weird artificial bar of when a "meaningful definition" exists, a dictionary definition meets the burden of a valid definition.
    Last edited by mican333; November 26th, 2019 at 04:40 PM.

  16. #216
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    1. In what way is "it" useful?
    2. If it is useful, why the "battle"?
    It is useful to better understand how people think and feel.

    It is a battle because some people want to deny that these thoughts and feelings are "real".

    It serves to confuse language...
    I disagree, its very useful language for discussing this issue.

    Without it, what would you say to talk about the social aspects of sex identity? Are you going to say "social aspects of sex identity" every time you mention it? I find saying "gender" much easier.

    Or social construct based on?
    Society. That's the meaning of social construct. An idea created by society.

    Social construct, but let people act/dress/behave as whatever sex as long as others rights are not infringed.
    Agreed?
    That is certainly how I feel about it.

    We are back to a similarity with alcoholism here it seems. Why should we not try to help these people (should they desire)?
    You can, but it is not the same as alcoholism. It is not substance abuse. It is not a chemical dependency. It is not something that abstinence can correct the symptoms of. It is not inherently a problem for everyone who is transgender. Many of them are happy being transgender. Not too many people are happy being alcoholic.

    If you have to make the comparison, compare alcoholism to gender dysphoria, not to being transgender.

    I really don't think most people care if a guy dresses like a girl wants to be called one and that is not what this thread is about.
    Really, because I've encountered a lot of people that do care about that.

    The title of the Thread is can Boys have periods?

    The answer is, yes, trans boys can have periods.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    It is useful to better understand how people think and feel.
    A matter of opinion I guess. I have had great difficulty talking effectively with you and Mican over the course of this thread.
    In this thread the terms male/female/boy/etc take a new meaning....well, actually they take on almost no meaning.
    How can a "girl" feel like a "boy" if a "boy" can actually be a "girl"???

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    It is a battle because some people want to deny that these thoughts and feelings are "real".
    The word "real" really does need to be in quotes here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    That is certainly how I feel about it.
    We agree again??
    Did you get a cramp or nausea?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    You can, but it is not the same as alcoholism.
    I did not suggest it was the same. Please reread my comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    If you have to make the comparison, compare alcoholism to gender dysphoria, not to being transgender.

    Sorry I tend to lean toward ideas rather than specific words in these conversations and this leads to confusion sometimes as most people don't think this way...…...I think?

    According to DSM, a person can drink all day, every day, and not be an alcoholic as long as it doesn't interfere negatively, significantly, in their personal or work life.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Really, because I've encountered a lot of people that do care about that.
    "Care" to what level?
    They just don't agree or do they actively act against it or ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    The title of the Thread is can Boys have periods?

    The answer is, yes, trans boys can have periods.
    That did NOT answer the Op!
    Boys can NOT have periods!
    Trans-boys (girls) can have periods!

    A period is a biological function, not a social construct so there is no reason to include non-biological females (you know...boys) in the conversation at all is there?
    Last edited by Belthazor; November 6th, 2019 at 08:06 PM.

  18. #218
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    A matter of opinion I guess. I have had great difficulty talking effectively with you and Mican over the course of this thread.
    In this thread the terms male/female/boy/etc take a new meaning....well, actually they take on almost no meaning.
    How can a "girl" feel like a "boy" if a "boy" can actually be a "girl"???
    A fish doesn't fit well into the net when they flip around, struggle and make a fuss. They fit just fine when they accept it.

    Which is to say, it's not confusing if you bother to try and understand and accept the idea. But if you are intent on resisting it, it won't work out well for you.

    We agree again??
    Did you get a cramp or nausea?
    I have no problem agreeing with people, I rather like it in fact, you should try it more, it's nice.

    Sorry I tend to lean toward ideas rather than specific words in these conversations and this leads to confusion sometimes as most people don't think this way...…...I think?

    According to DSM, a person can drink all day, every day, and not be an alcoholic as long as it doesn't interfere negatively, significantly, in their personal or work life.
    Sure, so alcoholic is somewhat like gender dysphoria. Good?

    "Care" to what level?
    They just don't agree or do they actively act against it or ???
    Caring enough to bitch and moan about it at least. Clearly we could all find some folks who try to make laws against buggery and the like.

    That did NOT answer the Op!
    Boys can NOT have periods!
    Trans-boys (girls) can have periods!
    Trans-boys are not girls, they are boys.

    A period is a biological function, not a social construct so there is no reason to include non-biological females (you know...boys) in the conversation at all is there?
    There is it is a matter of social respect.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  19. #219
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    A matter of opinion I guess. I have had great difficulty talking effectively with you and Mican over the course of this thread.
    In this thread the terms male/female/boy/etc take a new meaning....well, actually they take on almost no meaning.
    How can a "girl" feel like a "boy" if a "boy" can actually be a "girl"???
    Let me put it this way. Let's say that a scientist took the brain out of a woman and put it in a man's body. That person will likely say that they are woman in a man's body. Are they wrong? I don't think so.

    And in reality, scientists have found evidence that brains of transgendered people has structural similarities to those of the opposite sex. So the "woman in a man's body" situation has some similarities to reality.

    So with transgendered you have the body of one sex and the identity of the other. So they are a mix of the two sexes.

    That is a bit over simplistic but since you seem to not understand what they are, I think presenting it in simplistic terms might clarify.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    That did NOT answer the Op!
    Boys can NOT have periods!
    Trans-boys (girls) can have periods!
    Some boys can have periods if one chooses to consider "trans-boys" to be "boys". And I do.

    Like I said, I have a friend who's a trans-boy and I consider him a boy so from my perspective, he's a boy who has periods.

    I have yet to hear a good reason why I can't or should not consider my friend to be a boy. Yes, I know he's biologically female but I see no law or principle of logic that says because of that I can't respect his male gender identity and consider him to be a boy.

    So if it's your opinion that I should not do that, your opinion is noted but since I choose to be respectful towards my friend it doesn't change anything. If you are saying I cannot do that, please explain why I can't.
    Last edited by mican333; November 7th, 2019 at 01:22 PM.

  20. #220
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    A fish doesn't fit well into the net when they flip around, struggle and make a fuss. They fit just fine when they accept it.
    I have three aquariums (mostly cichlids), this is fun but not true...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    I have no problem agreeing with people, I rather like it in fact, you should try it more, it's nice.
    Actually I embrace it (as evidenced by the lil smile faces when it happens should you happen to notice).
    In fact, every time I think you are correct I will agree with you and will/have acknowledge it.
    How bout you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Sure, so alcoholic is somewhat like gender dysphoria. Good?
    Then I am starting to understand your position

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Caring enough to bitch and moan about it at least. Clearly we could all find some folks who try to make laws against buggery and the like.
    That does sound severe!!! (good lord people have learned to take major offense at almost anything...…..).

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Trans-boys are not girls, they are boys.
    But wasn't it you that said a "trans-boy was a biological girl" or ?

    Unless you are proposing certain pronouns are only to be used for "gender" and not "biological sex"?

    ( …...oh ya...this is very explicitly clear language like you said. Glad we got that cleared up...)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    There is it is a matter of social respect.
    Political correctness is not my strong suit. I think it defeats that which it seeks to promote. That aside, who in this whole thread has promoted disrespecting anyone??????

 

 
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