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  1. #221
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Actually I embrace it (as evidenced by the lil smile faces when it happens should you happen to notice).
    In fact, every time I think you are correct I will agree with you and will/have acknowledge it.
    How bout you?
    Always.

    Then I am starting to understand your position
    That is usually my #1 goal in a discussion.

    But wasn't it you that said a "trans-boy was a biological girl" or ?
    A Trans-boy was born as a girl but decided to live as a boy. If they want to live as a boy, I'm happy to treat them as a boy, but they are still a trans-boy. What they aren't is just a girl.

    Unless you are proposing certain pronouns are only to be used for "gender" and not "biological sex"?
    It's context. If there is no reason to distinguish, then just call a Trans-X and X. If there is some reason we need to know they are trans, say they are having a period, then you can say Trans-X so it's clear.

    Example..
    A: He's having his period.
    B: What, you mean her?
    A: No, him, he's trans.
    B: Ah I understand now.

    Political correctness is not my strong suit. I think it defeats that which it seeks to promote.
    Being polite to others defeats what goal exactly?

    That aside, who in this whole thread has promoted disrespecting anyone??????
    Probably Evensaul, he tends to show a lot of disrespect for lots of folks.
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  2. #222
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Always.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    That is usually my #1 goal in a discussion.
    Except in my case on occasions...


    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    A Trans-boy was born as a girl but decided to live as a boy.
    Ok.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    If they want to live as a boy, I'm happy to treat them as a boy,
    Again,who has suggested you do otherwise, certainly NOT me!


    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    but they are still a trans-boy.
    My only point...sigh....

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    What they aren't is just a girl.
    What is "just a girl" and what is wrong with that?


    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Being polite to others defeats what goal exactly?
    1. That isn't really what that is about.
    2. I am generally polite, it does not require this.
    3. "Ethnic cleansing" is politically correct, it was called "genocide" prior (cause that IS what it is).

    ---------- Post added at 05:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:04 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Probably Evensaul, he tends to show a lot of disrespect for lots of folks.
    I believe at times you have shown me disrespect as well, as evidenced by us having discussed it in other threads.
    That doesn't mean you are actually promoting disrespecting me does it?...

  3. #223
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    What is "just a girl" and what is wrong with that?
    A cis-girl is just a girl and there is nothing wrong with that.

    1. That isn't really what that is about.
    It really is.

    2. I am generally polite, it does not require this.
    How many trans people can you count among your friends and associates? If the answer is more than zero, please ask them if it is polite to use their birth sex to address them.

    3. "Ethnic cleansing" is politically correct, it was called "genocide" prior (cause that IS what it is).
    It is not politically correct. It was a term created to describe the actions of the Yugoslavian army during the Slavic war of the 1990s. It refers to chasing out or "cleansing" an area of a given ethnicity, somewhat distinct from Genocide which has the goal of killing or total elimination of an ethnicity. Mind you, they get used interchangeably to some degree. But it was never coined as a kind of "polite" term for genocide. Nor would it serve to not offend anyone since both acts are considered great crimes against humanity.

    I believe at times you have shown me disrespect as well, as evidenced by us having discussed it in other threads.
    That doesn't mean you are actually promoting disrespecting me does it?...
    I show disrespect to people I feel have earned it from me. I always try to start at a position of respect. but when someone takes actions or speaks words that warrant disrespect, I offer it. I see no reason that trans people have earned any disrespect form me, so I try to respect them.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  4. #224
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    I show disrespect to people I feel have earned it from me. I always try to start at a position of respect. but when someone takes actions or speaks words that warrant disrespect, I offer it.
    Here is a significant difference between us.

    When a person is an ass to someone and they are an ass back, it seems all that has happened is they have let themselves be lowered to the level of an ass.
    You sound like you anticipate it, and calculate being on that level when the situation presents itself and perhaps even enjoy it.
    Whether this is the case or not, you defend this type of response whenever you deem it worthy.

    Now I am surely not saying I haven't done the same thing at times when responding to someone who is being an ass.
    In my case it happens when my emotions override my intellect and I may say something I would not otherwise say. However, this is not something I am proud of, nor would I try to defend it.
    Sometimes after my emotions have subsided, upon reflection, I regret having said something.
    It concerns me when I allow myself to be lowered to such a level, since I aspire to a much higher standard of character.

    (This is why emotions need to have as limited role in decision making as possible, because they can and do change all the time.)


    With regards to trans-people, I don't believe I have shown, nor sought to promote others to show disrespect in this thread.
    With regards to the Op (which was my only real issue here), clearly "just a boy" (per you) can not have a period.

    The last word for this thread is yours...
    Last edited by Belthazor; November 13th, 2019 at 04:02 PM.

  5. #225
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    I see this thread has morphed into more of a general tg conversation. That's cool. Here is my question on gender and tg'ism in general.

    First, let me try to state what I believe are facts.
    1. Sex is a biological category. People can be male or female (putting aside certain chromosomal abnormalities).
    2. Some segment of the population has gender dysphoria (GD). This means that some aspect of their brain does not align with their biological sex.
    3. The DSM describes GD as a mental disorder.
    4. Among children diagnosed with GD, the majority will 'grow out of it' by adulthood.
    5. Among adults diagnosed with GD, for most it will be permanent.

    So, I think gender can be defined as a state of mind or perception of one's self as it relates to sex. For most people, like 99.99% of the population, the perception and reality match. So, the question is how to address or treat people whose perception mismatches their biology. Is it appropriate to call them by their perceived gender pronoun? Is it appropriate to make public accommodations for people with this disorder? If so, how far should these accommodations go?
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  6. #226
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    I see this thread has morphed into more of a general tg conversation. That's cool. Here is my question on gender and tg'ism in general.

    First, let me try to state what I believe are facts.
    1. Sex is a biological category. People can be male or female (putting aside certain chromosomal abnormalities).
    2. Some segment of the population has gender dysphoria (GD). This means that some aspect of their brain does not align with their biological sex.
    That is incorrect.

    "Gender dysphoria is a condition where a person experiences discomfort or distress because there's a mismatch between their biological sex and gender identity."

    https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/

    If there's a mismatch but no distress, then they are not suffering from dysphoria. So not all transgendered people suffer from dysphoria.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    So, I think gender can be defined as a state of mind or perception of one's self as it relates to sex. For most people, like 99.99% of the population, the perception and reality match. So, the question is how to address or treat people whose perception mismatches their biology. Is it appropriate to call them by their perceived gender pronoun? Is it appropriate to make public accommodations for people with this disorder? If so, how far should these accommodations go?
    First off, transgenderism is not a disorder according to the World Health Organization.

    And since I think the default is that should we treat each other with respect, I hold that EVERYONE'S gender identity should be recognized as their gender for social and legal purposes. Just like I show you the respect of referring to you as a male in all relevant ways and don't go around calling you "her" or "lady" or "miss", I would do the same for a transgendered male as well and say that everyone else should and the law should as well.

    That's not to say that there are not specific instances where a transgendered person's biological sex is relevant (like regarding medical issues) but the default is that people should be recognized by their gender identity.

    So again, the default is "recognize them by their gender identity" for all situations. If there are situations where it's better to consider their biological sex instead of their gender identity, they should be brought up individually and a case needs to be made why we need to not respect their gender identity in that particular situation. But without a good argument for not recognizing their gender identity, we should always do that.
    Last edited by mican333; November 27th, 2019 at 01:09 PM.

  7. #227
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    That is incorrect.

    "Gender dysphoria is a condition where a person experiences discomfort or distress because there's a mismatch between their biological sex and gender identity."

    https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/

    If there's a mismatch but no distress, then they are not suffering from dysphoria. So not all transgendered people suffer from dysphoria.
    https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-...nder-dysphoria
    You kind of misinterpret the NHS definition I think. There is a diagnostic list that defines someone with GD. The following is found in the above link and is from the DSM-V.


    1. A marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and primary and/or secondary sex characteristics
    2. A strong desire to be rid of one’s primary and/or secondary sex characteristics
    3. A strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender
    4. A strong desire to be of the other gender
    5. A strong desire to be treated as the other gender
    6. A strong conviction that one has the typical feelings and reactions of the other gender

    In the list, you will notice that there is no specific diagnostic criteria which states the person must feel 'distressed' or 'discomfortable'. In fact, there is nothing which indicates that the person must have any sort of mood or associative attribute at all. So, I believe my definition stands. I would like to point out, only two of the above must be true for the diagnosis of GD to be made.


    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Since I think the default is that we treat each other with respect, I hold in practically every relevant way, one should respect their gender identity and treat them as the gender they consider themselves.
    As I've said plenty in this debate, I have a friend who's a transgender male. I see no reason for me, society, or the law to not treat him as a "him" in practically every way.
    So, if someone believes they are invisible, should we respect their perceived visibility? Should we allow them to run around naked since they perceive no one else can see them? What about age? Should we allow adults who perceive themselves to be children to participate in children's activities?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I'm sure we can think up a few scenarios where his female biological sex needs to be recognized (like in medical situations) but outside of these particular situations, basic respect for each other dictates that we should treat everyone by their gender identity. Just like I respect you enough to consistently refer to you by your male gender identity (which I assume matches your biological sex) and not go around calling you "lady" or "miss", I say we should show the same respect to transgender males.

    Is there any reason why we shouldn't do this? Is there an overriding concern to treating transgender people with respect?
    Is there a reason we say the sky is blue? Couldn't we define it as gray to match the perception of color blind people? Should we tell the color blind that zebras and horses are the same since the stripes are imperceptible to them? It wouldn't really hurt anyone, right? Except that we wouldn't be telling the truth. And I believe, in most cases, truth trumps respect. Yes, we could all play into your friend's perception and use male pronouns. And, if your friend asked me to use 'he' instead of 'her', I'd probably comply in a mutual interaction of respect. However, that's about as far as it goes. Beyond that, the truth matters and the truth is more important than your friend's desire to be respected. So, if your friend wanted to use a men's restroom, I'd think it was inappropriate. If your friend used the men's locker room, I'd find it inappropriate. And I am sure there are plenty of other instances where the truth matters. The reason why you don't call me 'lady' or 'miss' first and foremost, I'd think, is because it would be inaccurate.
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  9. #228
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-...nder-dysphoria
    You kind of misinterpret the NHS definition I think. There is a diagnostic list that defines someone with GD. The following is found in the above link and is from the DSM-V.


    1. A marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and primary and/or secondary sex characteristics
    2. A strong desire to be rid of one’s primary and/or secondary sex characteristics
    3. A strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender
    4. A strong desire to be of the other gender
    5. A strong desire to be treated as the other gender
    6. A strong conviction that one has the typical feelings and reactions of the other gender

    In the list, you will notice that there is no specific diagnostic criteria which states the person must feel 'distressed' or 'discomfortable'. In fact, there is nothing which indicates that the person must have any sort of mood or associative attribute at all. So, I believe my definition stands. I would like to point out, only two of the above must be true for the diagnosis of GD to be made.
    And I provided a definition that DOES say that discomfort/distress IS part of the definition of "dysphoria" (and I think the criteria you were forwarding would count as things that would cause distress so I don't think our definitions contradict each other). So my support that some kind of distress is required for dysphoria stands.

    But either way, as long as we agree that one can be transgendered and not suffer from dysphoria (or any disorder), this point needs not further discussion.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    So, if someone believes they are invisible, should we respect their perceived visibility? Should we allow them to run around naked since they perceive no one else can see them? What about age? Should we allow adults who perceive themselves to be children to participate in children's activities?
    In most of those situations, I can think of a reason to not "go along" with what these people are doing (like people should not be naked in public). I can see no good reason to not "go along" with a person's gender identity if it's different than their biological sex in a vast majority of situations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Is there a reason we say the sky is blue? Couldn't we define it as gray to match the perception of color blind people? Should we tell the color blind that zebras and horses are the same since the stripes are imperceptible to them? It wouldn't really hurt anyone, right? Except that we wouldn't be telling the truth. And I believe, in most cases, truth trumps respect.
    And this has what to do with transgenderism?

    I'm certainly not failing to tell my trans male friend "the truth" when I refer to him as a "boy". The TRUTH is that he identifies as a boy and I am acknowledging that TRUTH when I refer to him as a boy. No one, neither he nor I, are pretending that he wasn't born as a biological girl.

    So this "truth" argument of yours seems to be nonsensical at this point so if you are going to continue to forward it, please be more specific on what you mean about truth.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Yes, we could all play into your friend's perception and use male pronouns. And, if your friend asked me to use 'he' instead of 'her', I'd probably comply in a mutual interaction of respect. However, that's about as far as it goes. Beyond that, the truth matters and the truth is more important than your friend's desire to be respected. So, if your friend wanted to use a men's restroom, I'd think it was inappropriate. If your friend used the men's locker room, I'd find it inappropriate.
    But then I don't think you finding something "inappropriate" a valid reason to treat transgender people with disrespect. Nor do I think that it is inappropriate for a transgender person to use the bathroom that they would choose to use.

    Some transgender males, from all appearances, are men, right down to the genitals (after transitioning). So some transgender males are very masculine looking people with penises. And while I can't speak for you, most people would rather see that person walk into a men's locker room instead of sharing a locker room with women. If you would rather have a muscular hairy guy with male genitals walk into the women's locker room with your wife and daughter in there instead of men's just because this person was born as a biological female, I guess you are entitled to that opinion. But I'm pretty sure it's not shared by most other people and I see no reason why one should be forced to abide by it.

    People generally don't want to be hassled when they enter a locker room so people, both cis and trans, are generally going to use the room that corresponds to their external appearance and not coincidentally, that is the choice that will cause the least amount of discomfort in others. So clearly the best policy is let people use the room that they want. What you personally think is inappropriate doesn't really amount to a good reason to do otherwise.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    The reason why you don't call me 'lady' or 'miss' first and foremost, I'd think, is because it would be inaccurate.
    Actually, i don't know if it's accurate or not. I've never met you in person and don't know for a fact that you aren't a female presenting yourself as a male on ODN. So I address you as a male because that is how you present yourself here and therefore I assume that is how you want to be addressed. And if I were to learn that you are actually a female who wants to be addressed as a male, I would continue to address you as a male out of respect to you. And I see no good reason to not show the same respect to others and address them by their gender identity regardless of whether it matches their birth sex or not.
    Last edited by mican333; December 2nd, 2019 at 10:15 AM.

  10. #229
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And I provided a definition that DOES say that discomfort/distress IS part of the definition of "dysphoria" (and I think the criteria you were forwarding would count as things that would cause distress so I don't think our definitions contradict each other). So my support that some kind of distress is required for dysphoria stands.

    But either way, as long as we agree that one can be transgendered and not suffer from dysphoria (or any disorder), this point needs not further discussion.
    Your interpretation of the definition you provided is poor. If someone is of the strong belief that they are the wrong gender, then that is a sign of discomfort. There needn't be a specific or separate feeling of being distressed or uncomfortable. I provided the most up-to-date definition from the DSM which is the tool widely used to diagnose mental disorders. Your definition is a guideline and summary of the diagnostic description which you have, as I just noted, misinterpreted. So, I think it is fair to claim that most, if not all tg people suffer from gender dysphoria. If they didn't, what would compel their behavior? In other words, attempt to explain how someone who is tg wouldn't demonstrate two or more of the items listed in the DSM.


    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    In most of those situations, I can think of a reason to not "go along" with what these people are doing (like people should not be naked in public). I can see no good reason to not "go along" with a person's gender identity if it's different than their biological sex in a vast majority of situations.
    That's nice. As long as you personally find a reason to do or not to do something, then I guess all is well. Bathrooms, Mican personally sees no need for the truth along biological lines. Walking down the sidewalk and the truth regarding one's visibility becomes important. Why? I dunno.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And this has what to do with transgenderism?
    People who are tg suffer from a mental disorder and your solution is play along with their delusion and call it being respectful. I'd say, there are times when this is fine and there are other times where it is harmful.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I'm certainly not failing to tell my trans male friend "the truth" when I refer to him as a "boy". The TRUTH is that he identifies as a boy and I am acknowledging that TRUTH when I refer to him as a boy. No one, neither he nor I, are pretending that he wasn't born as a biological girl.

    So this "truth" argument of yours seems to be nonsensical at this point so if you are going to continue to forward it, please be more specific on what you mean about truth.
    The truth is that your friend believes he is a boy, but isn't. Your friend wants to be a boy. Pretends to be boy. However, your friend suffers from a disorder that causes his brain to disassociate himself from his biological sex. It is unclear how to best treat this disorder. I understand the idea of placating him by using male pronouns to help him feel more comfortable and in a private setting where you are just his friend, I think that's absolutely fine. However, when interacting with the broader public, the truth is more important.


    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But then I don't think you finding something "inappropriate" a valid reason to treat transgender people with disrespect. Nor do I think that it is inappropriate for a transgender person to use the bathroom that they would choose to use.
    You certainly have the right to feel this way. However, we presumably have boys and girls bathrooms for a reason. That reason is generally based on what most people find appropriate and inappropriate. So, unless you are suggesting all bathrooms should be unisex, I fail to see your point here.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Some transgender males, from all appearances, are men, right down to the genitals (after transitioning). So some transgender males are very masculine looking people with penises. And while I can't speak for you, most people would rather see that person walk into a men's locker room instead of sharing a locker room with women. If you would rather have a muscular hairy guy with male genitals walk into the women's locker room with your wife and daughter in there instead of men's just because this person was born as a biological female, I guess you are entitled to that opinion. But I'm pretty sure it's not shared by most other people and I see no reason why one should be forced to abide by it.

    People generally don't want to be hassled when they enter a locker room so people, both cis and trans, are generally going to use the room that corresponds to their external appearance and not coincidentally, that is the choice that will cause the least amount of discomfort in others. So clearly the best policy is let people use the room that they want. What you personally think is inappropriate doesn't really amount to a good reason to do otherwise.
    You are citing the exception and offering it as the rule. More important than even bathrooms, women's shelters have been fighting this battle. Women's shelters have been sued by transgender women who have been denied services. Now, presumably, the transgender women looking for shelter should have known they would have been more accepted in a male shelter based on your reasoning above. Clearly, though, this isn't the case. So, in order to protect women who have been traumatized by men (i.e. domestic violence) and who have gone to a women's shelter for protection and shelter, the presence of a man isn't appropriate. The truth matters. Just because a person believes that they are a woman, it does not make them a woman. You don't know what people generally want in a given situation. All we can do is protect people who enter a given space with certain expectations that the space will be occupied by same sex individuals only. Whether it is a locker room or a women's shelter, women should have the right to feel safe.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Actually, i don't know if it's accurate or not. I've never met you in person and don't know for a fact that you aren't a female presenting yourself as a male on ODN. So I address you as a male because that is how you present yourself here and therefore I assume that is how you want to be addressed. And if I were to learn that you are actually a female who wants to be addressed as a male, I would continue to address you as a male out of respect to you. And I see no good reason to not show the same respect to others and address them by their gender identity regardless of whether it matches their birth sex or not.
    Right, you have never met me. However, you believe I am male and you address me as such because it is your belief that is being accurate. It is respectful because it is the truth. I don't owe anyone respect. However, I do believe telling the truth is a good thing. I don't go out of my way to be disrespectful, but I strive to be truthful. Someone must earn my respect. However, telling the truth is my default behavior.
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Your interpretation of the definition you provided is poor.
    No it's not.

    Here is the definition I provided.

    "Gender dysphoria is a condition where a person experiences discomfort or distress because there's a mismatch between their biological sex and gender identity."

    And I interpret that to mean that Gender dysphoria is a condition where a person experiences discomfort or distress because there's a mismatch between their biological sex and gender identity.

    I'd say my interpretation is pretty accurate and you will need to do more than just saying it isn't to support that it isn't. So I have supported that Gender dysphoria is a condition where a person experiences discomfort or distress because there's a mismatch between their biological sex and gender identity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    If someone is of the strong belief that they are the wrong gender, then that is a sign of discomfort. There needn't be a specific or separate feeling of being distressed or uncomfortable. I provided the most up-to-date definition from the DSM which is the tool widely used to diagnose mental disorders. Your definition is a guideline and summary of the diagnostic description which you have, as I just noted, misinterpreted. So, I think it is fair to claim that most, if not all tg people suffer from gender dysphoria. If they didn't, what would compel their behavior? In other words, attempt to explain how someone who is tg wouldn't demonstrate two or more of the items listed in the DSM.
    Shifting the burden. If if you are going to argue that all/most transgender people suffer from at least two of the items, it is up to you to support that.

    And from your link:

    "In adolescents and adults gender dysphoria diagnosis involves a difference between one’s experienced/expressed gender and assigned gender, and significant distress or problems functioning. It lasts at least six months and is shown by at least two of the following"

    So the DSM definition likewise refers to distress and problems functioning. It also specifies that they have to have the condition lasting at least six months. Such a thing would likely not be mentioned if they all suffered from those symptoms as a matter of course which shows that your interpretation that they all suffer from those things regularly to be a poor interpretation of the link.

    So the notion that transgenderism is a disorder or that a particular percentage of them suffer from a disorder is not supported and no arguments that uses that as a premise will be accepted until such a thing is supported.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    That's nice. As long as you personally find a reason to do or not to do something, then I guess all is well. Bathrooms, Mican personally sees no need for the truth along biological lines. Walking down the sidewalk and the truth regarding one's visibility becomes important. Why? I dunno.
    I don't know what you point is there. So let me make myself clear.

    We have a good reason to not let an "invisible man" walk naked in public since public nudity should not be allowed. I don't see a good reason to let transgender people choose the bathroom based on their gender identity.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    People who are tg suffer from a mental disorder and your solution is play along with their delusion and call it being respectful. I'd say, there are times when this is fine and there are other times where it is harmful.
    Based on an unsupported premise that they suffer from a mental disorder. Argument ignored until premise is supported.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    The truth is that your friend believes he is a boy, but isn't.
    If you mean that you have chosen to define "boy" based on biological sex and not gender and therefore personally do not accept the claim that he is a boy because of his biological sex, that is correct. But he is not denying any truth but just interpreting the word "boy" differently than you do. What you are talking about is a disagreement on semantics, not a disagreement on what's true.

    So let's see if you can provide an objective fact that my friend fails to recognize. It is an objective fact that he is biologically female but he doesn't deny that. It's an objective fact that his DNA is XX but then he doesn't deny that either.

    So again, what objective fact does he not recognize that you are informing him by stating that he is not a boy?

    Until you point out this objective truth, your claim that he, or anyone, is denying any truth fails.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Your friend wants to be a boy. Pretends to be boy. However, your friend suffers from a disorder that causes his brain to disassociate himself from his biological sex.
    Smuggling a premise. Until you support that he has a clinical disorder, any argument based on that premise fails.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    You certainly have the right to feel this way. However, we presumably have boys and girls bathrooms for a reason. That reason is generally based on what most people find appropriate and inappropriate. So, unless you are suggesting all bathrooms should be unisex, I fail to see your point here.
    My point is you just saying we "should" do something is not a valid reason to be disrespectful to transgender people. A "should" argument needs to be based on a stronger premise that "because I think so". My "should" argument is based on the appeal to show respect to other people, which is a much stronger premise that "I don't think it's appropriate".




    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    You are citing the exception and offering it as the rule. More important than even bathrooms, women's shelters have been fighting this battle. Women's shelters have been sued by transgender women who have been denied services. Now, presumably, the transgender women looking for shelter should have known they would have been more accepted in a male shelter based on your reasoning above. Clearly, though, this isn't the case. So, in order to protect women who have been traumatized by men (i.e. domestic violence) and who have gone to a women's shelter for protection and shelter, the presence of a man isn't appropriate. The truth matters. Just because a person believes that they are a woman, it does not make them a woman. You don't know what people generally want in a given situation. All we can do is protect people who enter a given space with certain expectations that the space will be occupied by same sex individuals only. Whether it is a locker room or a women's shelter, women should have the right to feel safe.
    And would the women in the women's locker room feel more safe if a hairy transgender male with a penis enters their room instead of the men's locker room just because he was born as a female?

    As I understand it, you would set the rules that locker room usage should correspond to birth sex and therefore the hairy trans male should be forced to use the ladies room. I, on the other hand, think that that person should choose which room he uses and if given that choice, will enter the men's room, which would make everyone involved feel much safer.

    And no, I don't consider this the exception. As I said, and you did not rebut, people will choose to use the room that will cause the least amount of hassle so if we let them use the room they want to use, there will be fewer uncomfortable situations than if we force them to use the room based on their birth sex regardless of what discomfort it may cause.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Right, you have never met me. However, you believe I am male and you address me as such because it is your belief that is being accurate. It is respectful because it is the truth.
    I'll speak for myself. If I was aware that you are biologically female and identify as a male, I would also know that it is TRUE that you identify as a male. And therefore I would be acknowledging the TRUTH of your gender identity by referring to you as a male.

    I am in no way denying any truth when I choose to refer to you based on your gender instead of your biology. Nor would I be denying any truth if I choose to refer to you based on your biology instead of your gender identity. So neither option denies any truth. But one option is clearly more respectful and that's the one I would choose.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    I don't owe anyone respect. However, I do believe telling the truth is a good thing. I don't go out of my way to be disrespectful, but I strive to be truthful. Someone must earn my respect. However, telling the truth is my default behavior.
    And it's the TRUTH that a transgender male identities as a male. So why not acknowledge that truth when using pronouns and call him "he" and "him" when addressing him?

    And the notion that it's good to tell someone a truth that they already know and would rather not have told to them just because it is the truth is no excuse for disrespect. If you had a fat co-worker, would tell him daily that he's really fat because you value truth above respect even though you know it upsets him when he's told that? I assume you wouldn't because he already knows he's fat and therefore your disrespectful true comment is needlessly disrespectful. Likewise there is no reason to remind my trans male friend that he is a biologically female by referring to him as a "girl". He already knows that. So I see no reason to be disrespectful in that way to him.
    Last edited by mican333; December 4th, 2019 at 10:04 PM.

  12. #231
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    No it's not.

    Here is the definition I provided.

    "Gender dysphoria is a condition where a person experiences discomfort or distress because there's a mismatch between their biological sex and gender identity."

    And I interpret that to mean that Gender dysphoria is a condition where a person experiences discomfort or distress because there's a mismatch between their biological sex and gender identity.

    I'd say my interpretation is pretty accurate and you will need to do more than just saying it isn't to support that it isn't. So I have supported that Gender dysphoria is a condition where a person experiences discomfort or distress because there's a mismatch between their biological sex and gender identity.
    And I provided the exact criteria to determine when discomfort/distress is reached via the most commonly used diagnostic manual in the field of psychology.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Shifting the burden. If if you are going to argue that all/most transgender people suffer from at least two of the items, it is up to you to support that.
    No, I am using logic to deduce from tg behavior that they must meet at least two of the items in the diagnostic list I provided. I don't think I am stetching logic by noting that someone willing to change their dress, inject themselves with hormones, and even remove/add appendages has gone through a sustained period of discomfort or distress. I don't think the time period changes this. It is not like someone feels distress from their gender and sex being different and then goes and decides to do all the aforementioned changes in the time-span of a couple of weeks. I am just using common sense. If you have a common sense rebuttal, which is all I asked for, then please share.


    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    So the DSM definition likewise refers to distress and problems functioning. It also specifies that they have to have the condition lasting at least six months. Such a thing would likely not be mentioned if they all suffered from those symptoms as a matter of course which shows that your interpretation that they all suffer from those things regularly to be a poor interpretation of the link.

    So the notion that transgenderism is a disorder or that a particular percentage of them suffer from a disorder is not supported and no arguments that uses that as a premise will be accepted until such a thing is supported.
    I don't think tg is a disorder. It is a response to a disorder. It is a behavior which results from having gender dysphoria. Not all people with gender dysphoria are tg, but I cannot imagine how someone who is tg would not be suffering from gender dysphoria.


    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I don't know what you point is there. So let me make myself clear.

    We have a good reason to not let an "invisible man" walk naked in public since public nudity should not be allowed. I don't see a good reason to let transgender people choose the bathroom based on their gender identity.
    What is the good reason for not letting someone who believes they are invisible from walking down the street naked?


    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Based on an unsupported premise that they suffer from a mental disorder. Argument ignored until premise is supported.
    I've supported this argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    If you mean that you have chosen to define "boy" based on biological sex and not gender and therefore personally do not accept the claim that he is a boy because of his biological sex, that is correct. But he is not denying any truth but just interpreting the word "boy" differently than you do. What you are talking about is a disagreement on semantics, not a disagreement on what's true.

    So let's see if you can provide an objective fact that my friend fails to recognize. It is an objective fact that he is biologically female but he doesn't deny that. It's an objective fact that his DNA is XX but then he doesn't deny that either.

    So again, what objective fact does he not recognize that you are informing him by stating that he is not a boy?

    Until you point out this objective truth, your claim that he, or anyone, is denying any truth fails.
    Your friend is objectively a girl who perceives himself as a boy. Gender is nothing but one's perception which, I believe, we defined earlier. If you go to a ride at Disneyland and they say you are too short for the ride, you don't get to go on the ride, no matter how tall you perceive you are. And, its fine, if you want to call yourself a tall person, even if you are objectively short (based on average heights). However, when you must deal with a public space and expectation, your perception is secondary to the objective truth. Now, maybe you fool the guy at Disneyland by wearing platform shoes. It does not mean you are actually tall. It just means you fooled someone. Your friend may look very manly and is able to fool others into believing he belongs in a men's bathroom or a men's prostrate cancer meeting. It doesn't make him a man in any sort of truthful way.


    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Smuggling a premise. Until you support that he has a clinical disorder, any argument based on that premise fails.
    I have supported this premise.


    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    My point is you just saying we "should" do something is not a valid reason to be disrespectful to transgender people. A "should" argument needs to be based on a stronger premise that "because I think so". My "should" argument is based on the appeal to show respect to other people, which is a much stronger premise that "I don't think it's appropriate".
    It isn't me making a personal statement. I didn't make restrooms for boys and girls. Those existed long before I did. And there is nothing disrespectful about asking someone to tell the truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And would the women in the women's locker room feel more safe if a hairy transgender male with a penis enters their room instead of the men's locker room just because he was born as a female?
    Again, you present this extreme situation. If a man puts on a wig and a dress and fools women in a locker room that he belongs there, do you think they would appreciate that? Obviously, for tg people, their condition presents serious issues when wanting to make use of public accommodations. Let's not put the burden on the women in the locker room to concede their rights and well-being. If someone is tg, they have to make some hard choices and I don't know if any of them are good for everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    As I understand it, you would set the rules that locker room usage should correspond to birth sex and therefore the hairy trans male should be forced to use the ladies room. I, on the other hand, think that that person should choose which room he uses and if given that choice, will enter the men's room, which would make everyone involved feel much safer.

    And no, I don't consider this the exception. As I said, and you did not rebut, people will choose to use the room that will cause the least amount of hassle so if we let them use the room they want to use, there will be fewer uncomfortable situations than if we force them to use the room based on their birth sex regardless of what discomfort it may cause.
    Well, there are plenty of documented cases where tg women (biological men) sought shelter at a woman's center. Several tg people have sued for being turned away. So, you don't consider this an exception, but, seriously, how many tg people of either gender are absolutely passable? From someone who spent plenty of time in West Hollywood where tg people are found in higher numbers than elsewhere, it was generally pretty obvious who they were. No one was 'fooled' that they were not really men. The truth is that the issue of public accommodations is complex and I wouldn't make a hard and fast rule either way. I think each community probably needs to set the rules based on the people who live in that community. I'd imagine the rules in San Francisco would differ from those in Aimes, Iowa. And I am ok with that. However, I'd caution that women are marginalized when you allow men to use spaces specifically setup for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I'll speak for myself. If I was aware that you are biologically female and identify as a male, I would also know that it is TRUE that you identify as a male. And therefore I would be acknowledging the TRUTH of your gender identity by referring to you as a male.

    I am in no way denying any truth when I choose to refer to you based on your gender instead of your biology. Nor would I be denying any truth if I choose to refer to you based on your biology instead of your gender identity. So neither option denies any truth. But one option is clearly more respectful and that's the one I would choose.
    You are bending your reality to meet the perception of the person you are addressing. And, sometimes, I'd do the exact same thing. My son has a friend who is tg and comes to the house frequently. I use the person's name that I was asked to use and refer to the person by their chosen pronoun. I was asked respectfully and I respectfully agreed. However, when my son asked for his friends to spend the night, the boys were allowed, but his tg friend and his girlfriend were not allowed. I am going to be respectful, but when the truth matters, it trumps perception.


    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And it's the TRUTH that a transgender male identities as a male. So why not acknowledge that truth when using pronouns and call him "he" and "him" when addressing him?
    As explained above, I will do that on a case by case basis. But, I do not accept that as being truthful. How someone identifies isn't a truth claim. If someone with blurry vision tells you the letter on the sign is a P when it is actually a D, they are being truthful in what they perceive the letter to be. The truth, though, is that the letter is a D.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And the notion that it's good to tell someone a truth that they already know and would rather not have told to them just because it is the truth is no excuse for disrespect. If you had a fat co-worker, would tell him daily that he's really fat because you value truth above respect even though you know it upsets him when he's told that? I assume you wouldn't because he already knows he's fat and therefore your disrespectful true comment is needlessly disrespectful. Likewise there is no reason to remind my trans male friend that he is a biologically female by referring to him as a "girl". He already knows that. So I see no reason to be disrespectful in that way to him.
    But, if the fat person asked me to share a small space, I may have to point out that he's fat and that we wouldn't fit. Just like if my son's tg friend asks to spend the night, I feel obliged to remind them that they are really a girl and so it isn't appropriate. My desire to show that person respect is subservient to the truth.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  13. #232
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Here is a significant difference between us.

    When a person is an ass to someone and they are an ass back, it seems all that has happened is they have let themselves be lowered to the level of an ass.
    You sound like you anticipate it, and calculate being on that level when the situation presents itself and perhaps even enjoy it.
    Whether this is the case or not, you defend this type of response whenever you deem it worthy.

    Now I am surely not saying I haven't done the same thing at times when responding to someone who is being an ass.
    In my case it happens when my emotions override my intellect and I may say something I would not otherwise say. However, this is not something I am proud of, nor would I try to defend it.
    Sometimes after my emotions have subsided, upon reflection, I regret having said something.
    It concerns me when I allow myself to be lowered to such a level, since I aspire to a much higher standard of character.

    (This is why emotions need to have as limited role in decision making as possible, because they can and do change all the time.)
    I respect your approach, but, I've found that there are times when speaking the language spoken to you can achieve something that being polite cant.
    1. You can show some cultural affinity
    2. You can demonstrate that the language used is irritating and convince them it is in their interest to stop

    In addition to that, I think there is some honesty in showing your anger. If someone pisses you off, it's not wrong to show you are pissed off. Its good to be in control of yourself. But so long as you are directing your anger with some forethought, I think it can (but is not always) a reasonable course to take.

    When I was a kid, I idealized Spock from Star Trek. I really loved his approach to the world. Stay logical, don't let emotion cloud your judgment. But as I got older and considered the ebb and flow of life and the meaning of my own existence I came to realize that without emotion, there is no meaning. Without desire, there is no purpose. Logic is in service to emotion. Reason enables us to achieve what we desire. A good life balances reason and emotion and seeks both to understand the why and the how.

    One of my hobbies is acting and role-playing. It's useless without anger, love, joy, hatred, and so on. These emotional states are as important to human communication as words are. They are an integral part of the human experience. You can't simply make them disappear, nor should you. But neither can they be allowed to simply ride roughshod over reason and logic because that way lies madness and destructive chaos.


    With regards to trans-people, I don't believe I have shown, nor sought to promote others to show disrespect in this thread.
    With regards to the Op (which was my only real issue here), clearly "just a boy" (per you) can not have a period..
    It's just semantics at that point.

    There are people who want to be treated like men who were born women. I'm happy to treat them like men if they are willing to play the role of man. I won't begrudge them the fact their body bleeds as a woman's does.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  14. #233
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    NOTE:

    In you arguments, you often refer to "the truth" but often don't identify what specific truth you are referring to. In your responses, could you please add the specific truth you are referring to (such as "the truth that they are born biologically female") instead of vaguely referring to "Truth"? Thanks in advance.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    And I provided the exact criteria to determine when discomfort/distress is reached via the most commonly used diagnostic manual in the field of psychology.
    And you have not supported that any particular percentage of transgendered people experience such distress.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    No, I am using logic to deduce from tg behavior that they must meet at least two of the items in the diagnostic list I provided. I don't think I am stetching logic by noting that someone willing to change their dress, inject themselves with hormones, and even remove/add appendages has gone through a sustained period of discomfort or distress.
    I don't see what's so incredibly stressful about deciding to wear certain clothes. An argument could be made that those who seek to transition are uniformly experiencing stress but then not every transgendered person seeks to transition so I still don't see a coherent argument that says that EVERY transgendered person experiences such stress.

    So what is the percentage of transgender people who suffer dysphoria? I don't know but it's certainly not 100 percent. In support:

    "Some, but not all, transgender people experience gender dysphoria."

    https://www.newsweek.com/transgender...entist-1475013

    So I have supported that not all transgendered people suffer from dysphoria and there is no support that trangendered people all have a disorder of some kind since transgenderism itself is not a disorder and there is no support that they all suffer from a disorder.

    I will not respond to arguments below that claim that you have supported that they all suffer from a disorder if it just says something along the lines of "I have supported it". Arguments that provide reasoning will be responded to.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    What is the good reason for not letting someone who believes they are invisible from walking down the street naked?
    The same reason we don't let everyone else walk down the street naked. I assume you have a handle on the reasoning for laws against public nudity.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Your friend is objectively a girl who perceives himself as a boy.
    I Challenge to support a claim. you to SUPPORT OR RETRACT that my friend is objectively a girl.

    To provide a rebuttal beforehand, you are subjectively choosing to define "girl" as "someone who is born as a biological girl" and subjectively choosing to not define "girl" as "someone who identifies as a girl". That is not objective, it is subjective. So I disagree that my friend is objectively a girl and challenge you to support or retract that assertion. While you may rebut my reasoning, you may not repeat that my friend is objectively a girl or make any arguments with that premise until you do provide support as you have been challenged to.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Gender is nothing but one's perception which, I believe, we defined earlier. If you go to a ride at Disneyland and they say you are too short for the ride, you don't get to go on the ride, no matter how tall you perceive you are. And, its fine, if you want to call yourself a tall person, even if you are objectively short (based on average heights). However, when you must deal with a public space and expectation, your perception is secondary to the objective truth. Now, maybe you fool the guy at Disneyland by wearing platform shoes. It does not mean you are actually tall. It just means you fooled someone. Your friend may look very manly and is able to fool others into believing he belongs in a men's bathroom or a men's prostrate cancer meeting. It doesn't make him a man in any sort of truthful way.
    That is based on the premise that I have challenged you to support. Until you support your initial statement about my friend being objectively a girl, this argument fails for being based on an unsupported premise and likewise the analogy fails for you are comparing something that is objective (one's height) with something that you have not supported is objective (whether one is a boy or a girl).




    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    It isn't me making a personal statement. I didn't make restrooms for boys and girls. Those existed long before I did. And there is nothing disrespectful about asking someone to tell the truth.
    Too vague for a response. What "truth" are you referring to? If you mean, that the person is objective a girl, that premise is currently challenged. If you are referring to some other truth, you need to specify what it is before you have made a coherent argument that can be responded to.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Again, you present this extreme situation. If a man puts on a wig and a dress and fools women in a locker room that he belongs there, do you think they would appreciate that? Obviously, for tg people, their condition presents serious issues when wanting to make use of public accommodations. Let's not put the burden on the women in the locker room to concede their rights and well-being. If someone is tg, they have to make some hard choices and I don't know if any of them are good for everyone.
    If there are no perfect options, we pick the best of our imperfect options.

    And as I've been arguing, that odds are if let the tg person decide which room to use, they will make the choice that causes the least discomfort compared to some policy that tries to dictate which one they should use. And you can call my scenario "extreme" (although I don't know what you mean by that) but you aren't rebutting my argument that the hairy transgendered male with a penis will cause much less discomfort if we let him use the men's room instead of forcing him to use the ladies room because he was born a girl. And since that he will almost certainly use the men's room if given the choice, letting him choose is likely the better option than trying to dictate which one he should use. So while this scenario is just one scenario, it is support that letting people decide for themselves is the best option. Just waving it away as "extreme" does not invalidate it nor have I heard a valid argument for a different option.

    I acknowledge you have referred to women being able to feel safe in the women's room but then my argument supports that women will feel safer if we let the trans male in my scenario use the room of his choice and likewise that tg people will more often choose to use the room that will make people the most comfortable.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Well, there are plenty of documented cases where tg women (biological men) sought shelter at a woman's center. Several tg people have sued for being turned away.
    Which is a different issue than restrooms. I'm not saying that there are never situations where tg issues are tricky. But this does not rebut my argument about restrooms (which are different than shelters for abused women).


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    So, you don't consider this an exception, but, seriously, how many tg people of either gender are absolutely passable?
    I don't know. I imagine that those that are passable are very hard to spot. For all I know, I passed a dozen tg people yesterday and didn't know it because they resembled their gender identity so well.

    My trans male friend would likely fool about anyone who didn't know he was born female beforehand. He looks just like a guy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    From someone who spent plenty of time in West Hollywood where tg people are found in higher numbers than elsewhere, it was generally pretty obvious who they were. No one was 'fooled' that they were not really men.
    How do you know that for every tg person who didn't fool you, there weren't two other tg persons who did fool you?

    I mean you are essentially arguing that you know there were no tg persons who fooled you despite the fact that if some did you fool you, you wouldn't know it. That's kind of like being sure there is no counterfeit money in your wallet even though if there was, you wouldn't know it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    The truth is that the issue of public accommodations is complex and I wouldn't make a hard and fast rule either way. I think each community probably needs to set the rules based on the people who live in that community. I'd imagine the rules in San Francisco would differ from those in Aimes, Iowa. And I am ok with that. However, I'd caution that women are marginalized when you allow men to use spaces specifically setup for them.
    Well, it looks like you either backtracked on forcing tg people to use the restroom of their birth gender or were never making that argument in the first place. So I'm not sure we have a disagreement on this anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    You are bending your reality to meet the perception of the person you are addressing.
    I disagree. I AM aware that my transgender friend was born a girl and has a male gender identity. So I am not confused about the reality. I just choose to address him by his gender identity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    And, sometimes, I'd do the exact same thing. My son has a friend who is tg and comes to the house frequently. I use the person's name that I was asked to use and refer to the person by their chosen pronoun. I was asked respectfully and I respectfully agreed. However, when my son asked for his friends to spend the night, the boys were allowed, but his tg friend and his girlfriend were not allowed. I am going to be respectful, but when the truth matters, it trumps perception.
    Until you identify the "Truth" you are referring to, this argument is not coherent.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    As explained above, I will do that on a case by case basis. But, I do not accept that as being truthful. How someone identifies isn't a truth claim. If someone with blurry vision tells you the letter on the sign is a P when it is actually a D, they are being truthful in what they perceive the letter to be. The truth, though, is that the letter is a D.
    So you don't accept the TRUTH that a transgender male identify as a male?

    You act like you are being told something that is not objectively true and yet in these arguments you never specify what this objective truth is. How a word is defined is not an objective truth since a word's definition is based on what humans decide that it is which makes is subjective.

    When it comes to transgender males, here are the two hard truths.

    TRUTH 1 - this person was born as a biological female
    TRUTH 2 - this person identifies as a male.

    So in regards to transgender people, what objective truth is being denied by myself or others who accept trans males as "males".



    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    But, if the fat person asked me to share a small space, I may have to point out that he's fat and that we wouldn't fit. Just like if my son's tg friend asks to spend the night, I feel obliged to remind them that they are really a girl and so it isn't appropriate. My desire to show that person respect is subservient to the truth.
    No, you are informing them of your opinion, not some truth that they were not aware of.

    Again, it is your OPINION that transgendered males are "girls" as in it's your subjective choice to ignore their gender identity and instead define them by their biological sex. While you have every right to decide who does and does not stay over with your son, it is about as disrespectful to call his trans male friends "girls" as it is to call his cis male friends "girls".

    And you are not informing his trans friend of any truth by calling him a girl but instead informing him of your opinion that on what makes one a boy or a girl. You are certainly entitled to your opinion but you are putting your opinion over respect, not truth over respect.
    Last edited by mican333; December 8th, 2019 at 06:06 PM.

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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    NOTE:

    In you arguments, you often refer to "the truth" but often don't identify what specific truth you are referring to. In your responses, could you please add the specific truth you are referring to (such as "the truth that they are born biologically female") instead of vaguely referring to "Truth"? Thanks in advance.




    And you have not supported that any particular percentage of transgendered people experience such distress.




    I don't see what's so incredibly stressful about deciding to wear certain clothes. An argument could be made that those who seek to transition are uniformly experiencing stress but then not every transgendered person seeks to transition so I still don't see a coherent argument that says that EVERY transgendered person experiences such stress.

    So what is the percentage of transgender people who suffer dysphoria? I don't know but it's certainly not 100 percent. In support:

    "Some, but not all, transgender people experience gender dysphoria."

    https://www.newsweek.com/transgender...entist-1475013

    So I have supported that not all transgendered people suffer from dysphoria and there is no support that trangendered people all have a disorder of some kind since transgenderism itself is not a disorder and there is no support that they all suffer from a disorder.

    I will not respond to arguments below that claim that you have supported that they all suffer from a disorder if it just says something along the lines of "I have supported it". Arguments that provide reasoning will be responded to.
    I have argued that the very act of being tg is a sign that someone suffers from gender dysphoria. They clearly felt compelled to change their gender in order to meet their own perception which differs from their biology. It seems illogical to presume someone was perfectly happy with this conflict and chose to transition anyhow. I have read the statement that not all tg people suffer from gender dysphoria, but not a single source I found could explain why/how? It is just a statement made to appear factual, but with no logic or supporting evidence. So, I do not accept your support. You can either explain why my logic is erroneous or your can cite a more meaningful passage as to how a tg person wouldn't be suffering from gender dysphoria.


    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    The same reason we don't let everyone else walk down the street naked. I assume you have a handle on the reasoning for laws against public nudity.
    Ok. And what is the reason?


    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    I Challenge to support a claim. you to SUPPORT OR RETRACT that my friend is objectively a girl.

    To provide a rebuttal beforehand, you are subjectively choosing to define "girl" as "someone who is born as a biological girl" and subjectively choosing to not define "girl" as "someone who identifies as a girl". That is not objective, it is subjective. So I disagree that my friend is objectively a girl and challenge you to support or retract that assertion. While you may rebut my reasoning, you may not repeat that my friend is objectively a girl or make any arguments with that premise until you do provide support as you have been challenged to.
    You are incorrect here. A girl is someone with the XX chromosomes and has female genitalia. It objectively describes a girl. Gender is not an objective descriptor. It is someone's personal perception. Your friend is a girl who perceives herself as a boy. You are choosing to use her preference which is a self-descriptive perception rather than the objective truth. Gender is mutable. Sex is immutable. I fail to see how this is controversial in the slightest.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    That is based on the premise that I have challenged you to support. Until you support your initial statement about my friend being objectively a girl, this argument fails for being based on an unsupported premise and likewise the analogy fails for you are comparing something that is objective (one's height) with something that you have not supported is objective (whether one is a boy or a girl).
    How is height and sex different? Because you say so? They can both be objectively described. Now, I could measure myself using my hands and claim I am so many hands tall and measure you using your hands and claim you are so many hands tall and no one would have any idea how tall either of us are since are hands are presumably different sizes. Does this help in clarifying someone's height? I mean we could certainly do this and claim it is perfectly valid, but in public when dealing with public accommodations, would anyone feel obliged to abide by our self-measurements? Would anyone oblige to only refer to us by our hand height? Outside of our circle of friends, probably not. And you could certainly say using the metric system or the U.S. system is subjective, but it the agreed upon measurement by society and it is uniform so when I say I am 5' 10" and you say you are 6' 5" everyone knows exactly what we mean. If I say I am a boy and you say you are a boy everyone knows what we mean. When your friend says she is a boy, it is not exactly clear what she means. It is like measuring her height with her hands in that it has no defined meaning and is completely subjective to her own perception. And hey, maybe she measures with her left hand today, but her right hand tomorrow and she comes up with two different heights, but both are equally valid, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    Too vague for a response. What "truth" are you referring to? If you mean, that the person is objective a girl, that premise is currently challenged. If you are referring to some other truth, you need to specify what it is before you have made a coherent argument that can be responded to.
    I think I explained this clearly to this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    If there are no perfect options, we pick the best of our imperfect options.

    And as I've been arguing, that odds are if let the tg person decide which room to use, they will make the choice that causes the least discomfort compared to some policy that tries to dictate which one they should use. And you can call my scenario "extreme" (although I don't know what you mean by that) but you aren't rebutting my argument that the hairy transgendered male with a penis will cause much less discomfort if we let him use the men's room instead of forcing him to use the ladies room because he was born a girl. And since that he will almost certainly use the men's room if given the choice, letting him choose is likely the better option than trying to dictate which one he should use. So while this scenario is just one scenario, it is support that letting people decide for themselves is the best option. Just waving it away as "extreme" does not invalidate it nor have I heard a valid argument for a different option.

    I acknowledge you have referred to women being able to feel safe in the women's room but then my argument supports that women will feel safer if we let the trans male in my scenario use the room of his choice and likewise that tg people will more often choose to use the room that will make people the most comfortable.
    You are making all sorts of assumptions here. I challenge you to support that you know what women actually want. What you are actually saying is that so long as woman in a given space are sufficiently fooled into believing that they are not sharing their space with men, then they would be ok with it. So, if any man dressed sufficiently enough like a woman to pass in a woman's space unnoticed, then women would be ok with this? And you like to use bathrooms as an example. Aren't genders specifically designed to accommodate biological females? Going to the bathroom is a biological act. There are no urinals in a woman's bathroom. There are typically tampon dispensers. This room functions to meet the needs of biological women. Someone's preference or self-identification does not alter their biology and does not give them license to use a space specifically designed for biological needs and where the expectations of the people in that space are that it will be shared by those with the same biological needs.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Which is a different issue than restrooms. I'm not saying that there are never situations where tg issues are tricky. But this does not rebut my argument about restrooms (which are different than shelters for abused women).
    I disagree that they are different as explained above.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I don't know. I imagine that those that are passable are very hard to spot. For all I know, I passed a dozen tg people yesterday and didn't know it because they resembled their gender identity so well.

    My trans male friend would likely fool about anyone who didn't know he was born female beforehand. He looks just like a guy.

    How do you know that for every tg person who didn't fool you, there weren't two other tg persons who did fool you?
    Funny when you decide to use the verb fool here. And I don't know.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I mean you are essentially arguing that you know there were no tg persons who fooled you despite the fact that if some did you fool you, you wouldn't know it. That's kind of like being sure there is no counterfeit money in your wallet even though if there was, you wouldn't know it.
    For the odd trans person who may have fooled me, I spotted plenty who quite clearly couldn't fool anyone. It is just a matter of numbers. There are a limited number of tg people, so if I can spot obvious examples, then those who I cannot spot would be very few by just the raw number available.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Well, it looks like you either backtracked on forcing tg people to use the restroom of their birth gender or were never making that argument in the first place. So I'm not sure we have a disagreement on this anymore.
    Where did I ever say 'force' someone to do anything? I said it would be inappropriate.


    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I disagree. I AM aware that my transgender friend was born a girl and has a male gender identity. So I am not confused about the reality. I just choose to address him by his gender identity.

    Until you identify the "Truth" you are referring to, this argument is not coherent.
    No one claimed you were confused. You have just chosen to ignore the reality in favor of your friend's perception.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    So you don't accept the TRUTH that a transgender male identify as a male?
    You are trying to smuggle the premise that someone's perception is the truth. Your friend undoubtedly perceives himself as a boy. It does not make it true.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    You act like you are being told something that is not objectively true and yet in these arguments you never specify what this objective truth is. How a word is defined is not an objective truth since a word's definition is based on what humans decide that it is which makes is subjective.

    When it comes to transgender males, here are the two hard truths.

    TRUTH 1 - this person was born as a biological female
    TRUTH 2 - this person identifies as a male.

    So in regards to transgender people, what objective truth is being denied by myself or others who accept trans males as "males".
    In a public setting we use definitions that are not solely based on an individual's perception. The word boy/man has an objective meaning in that we can define the term independent of someone's belief. Yes, the word boy/man are subjectively chosen as a matter of speech, but this is a rather semantic argument which is obfuscating the meaning of language. If I say I am wearing a suit and you see I am wearing pajamas, then my use of language would be confusing. According to you, I wouldn't be wrong and people should accept that I am wearing a suit. A restaurant with a dress code, per your paradigm would be disrespectful in not accepting my definition of suit. This is just word salad rendering language meaningless.


    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    No, you are informing them of your opinion, not some truth that they were not aware of.

    Again, it is your OPINION that transgendered males are "girls" as in it's your subjective choice to ignore their gender identity and instead define them by their biological sex. While you have every right to decide who does and does not stay over with your son, it is about as disrespectful to call his trans male friends "girls" as it is to call his cis male friends "girls".
    No. That's the thing. It is not my opinion. If they have a XX chromosome and female genitalia, then they are a female. A girl.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And you are not informing his trans friend of any truth by calling him a girl but instead informing him of your opinion that on what makes one a boy or a girl. You are certainly entitled to your opinion but you are putting your opinion over respect, not truth over respect.
    An opinion is something stated which isn't based on facts. In the English language, boy and girl have a very distinct meaning as I have noted multiple times. A tg person is simply someone whose brain tells them that they are a different sex than the one they are biologically assigned to. I am in no way offering my opinion when I call them according to their biological sex. I am simply stating a fact. More importantly, in a discussion of biological function, the person's perception of themselves does not matter. Like you said, they know their true sex. So, there is no reason to clarify how a biological function is impacted by their perception.
    Last edited by Ibelsd; Yesterday at 01:54 PM. Reason: Finsih
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    I have argued that the very act of being tg is a sign that someone suffers from gender dysphoria. They clearly felt compelled to change their gender in order to meet their own perception which differs from their biology.
    I assume by "change their gender" you are referring to gender reassignment surgery. But then they don't all seek gender reassignment surgery so your statement does not apply to all transgendered people and therefore does not support that they all suffer from dysphoria.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    It seems illogical to presume someone was perfectly happy with this conflict and chose to transition anyhow. I have read the statement that not all tg people suffer from gender dysphoria, but not a single source I found could explain why/how? It is just a statement made to appear factual, but with no logic or supporting evidence. So, I do not accept your support. You can either explain why my logic is erroneous or your can cite a more meaningful passage as to how a tg person wouldn't be suffering from gender dysphoria.
    I have explained why your logic is erroneous. It is based on the premise that all transgender people seek reassignment surgery which is an incorrect premise.

    As for my support, I already provided it and will provide it again:

    "Some, but not all, transgender people experience gender dysphoria."

    https://www.newsweek.com/transgender...entist-1475013

    THAT is support. I have supported my position and you have not supported yours.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Ok. And what is the reason?
    Like I said, I think you have a handle of the reason public nudity is outlawed. If you feel it's important that the reason be specified, you can take the effort to do it yourself.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    You are incorrect here. A girl is someone with the XX chromosomes and has female genitalia. It objectively describes a girl.
    SUPPORT OR RETRACT that having XX chromosomes and has female genitalia objectively describes a girl. challenge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Gender is not an objective descriptor. It is someone's personal perception. Your friend is a girl who perceives herself as a boy. You are choosing to use her preference which is a self-descriptive perception rather than the objective truth. Gender is mutable. Sex is immutable. I fail to see how this is controversial in the slightest.
    First off, I believe you are incorrect that gender is mutable so the issue is controversial - I know I can't change my gender so I think the suggestion that someone else can is indeed debatable. But that's beside the point. The point is that you are DEFINING my friend as a girl based on his biology instead of his gender. So the issue is the definition of "girl" and definitions are mutable.

    In other words, in this debate, your position that my friend is girl because of his birth biology is based on nothing more than "because I say that's how the word 'girl' is defined". Sure, there are others who will agree with you on that and there are others who will disagree with you on that. But there is NO OBJECTIVE TRUTH in the matter of which definition is correct. So my friend is not objectively a girl. My friend is subjectively a girl because you have subjectively chosen to define "girl" based on biological sex instead of gender identity.

    Hence the challenge that my friend is objectively a girl. So again, do not repeat that my friend is objectively a girl until you have supported that assertion.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    How is height and sex different? Because you say so?
    Moving the goalpost, I think. We were comparing height and whether he's a "girl", not height and (biological) sex.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    If I say I am a boy and you say you are a boy everyone knows what we mean. When your friend says she is a boy, it is not exactly clear what she means. It is like measuring her height with her hands in that it has no defined meaning and is completely subjective to her own perception. And hey, maybe she measures with her left hand today, but her right hand tomorrow and she comes up with two different heights, but both are equally valid, right?
    But then if you met my friend and he said he's a girl, you would probably be confused because he looks much more like a boy than a girl.




    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    You are making all sorts of assumptions here. I challenge you to support that you know what women actually want.
    I never argued that I know what women want and therefore have no need to support such a thing. I'm arguing about women feeling safe because that was what you forwarded.

    As far as women feeling safer if the person who enters the restroom resembles a woman more than they resemble a man, I will appeal to common sense. OF COURSE women feel safer if they think that other person is a girl instead of a boy. Even if they are unknowingly incorrect about the other person's sex, they will still feel safer if they think it's a woman instead of a man.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    What you are actually saying is that so long as woman in a given space are sufficiently fooled into believing that they are not sharing their space with men, then they would be ok with it.
    Smuggling the premise that transgendered women are "men". And yes, if the person entering the room looks more like a woman than a man, the woman will feel safer than if the opposite happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    So, if any man dressed sufficiently enough like a woman to pass in a woman's space unnoticed, then women would be ok with this? And you like to use bathrooms as an example.
    YOU are the one who brought up bathrooms so that is where this debate is focused. If you want to concede that bathroom issue, I'd be happy to stop debating it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Aren't genders specifically designed to accommodate biological females? Going to the bathroom is a biological act. There are no urinals in a woman's bathroom. There are typically tampon dispensers. This room functions to meet the needs of biological women. Someone's preference or self-identification does not alter their biology and does not give them license to use a space specifically designed for biological needs and where the expectations of the people in that space are that it will be shared by those with the same biological needs.
    But then some trans-females have transitioned and have vaginas. So do you concede that THESE people, because of their biology, should use the women's restroom.

    And again, if the issue is women feeling safer, all that matters is that the person who enters the restroom doesn't make them feel unsafe. And it's not like a woman with a penis can't urinate in the ladies room. A urinal is not required.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Funny when you decide to use the verb fool here. And I don't know.
    I used "fool" because I was responding to your argument and you used it. And since you don't know, you cannot say that you could spot every transgender female in West Hollywood.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    For the odd trans person who may have fooled me, I spotted plenty who quite clearly couldn't fool anyone. It is just a matter of numbers. There are a limited number of tg people, so if I can spot obvious examples, then those who I cannot spot would be very few by just the raw number available.
    And you know this how? Did you get a count of how many transgendered people were in the area and then subtracted those who didn't fool you from the total number and found the remaining number very small? Or do you have no idea how many transgendered people were in the area and therefore have no clue on how many fooled you and how many did not?

    If you say it's the former, please support. If you can't say it's the former, then it has to be the latter.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Where did I ever say 'force' someone to do anything? I said it would be inappropriate.
    I was under the impression that you favored laws preventing transgender women from using the women's room. But that's not your position, then I retract that notion.

    But then I assume that if you would rather have the aforementioned hairy trans male with a penis use the men's room than the ladies room, you don't find it uniformly inappropriate for trans people to use the bathroom that fits their gender identity. So do you concede that, at least some of the time (like the hairy trans guy scenario) it is more appropriate for transgender people to use the room that corresponds to their gender. if not, then you do take the position that the hairy trans guy should use the ladies room?



    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    No one claimed you were confused. You have just chosen to ignore the reality in favor of your friend's perception.
    Incorrect. I have ignored no objective reality and if you disagree, then name the specific objective fact that I am ignoring.

    And don't say it's my friend being a "girl", because that is based on YOUR subjective definition of girl. If you mean that my friend has female genitalia, I don't ignore that. I just don't use that fact as my basis when referring to him.




    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    You are trying to smuggle the premise that someone's perception is the truth. Your friend undoubtedly perceives himself as a boy. It does not make it true.
    I didn't say that it was true that he's a boy. I said it true that he identifies as a male. And that is true. He absolutely does identify as a male. And since I acknowledge that truth, I likewise refer to him as a male.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    In a public setting we use definitions that are not solely based on an individual's perception. The word boy/man has an objective meaning in that we can define the term independent of someone's belief.
    SUPPORT OR RETRACT this assertion. Please define boy/man without resorting to someone's (like your own) belief.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Yes, the word boy/man are subjectively chosen as a matter of speech, but this is a rather semantic argument which is obfuscating the meaning of language. If I say I am wearing a suit and you see I am wearing pajamas, then my use of language would be confusing. According to you, I wouldn't be wrong and people should accept that I am wearing a suit. A restaurant with a dress code, per your paradigm would be disrespectful in not accepting my definition of suit. This is just word salad rendering language meaningless.
    That just shows that it's best if people generally agree on definitions. It does not support that definitions are objective. I can show that your definitions are subjective by comparing them to a real objective fact.

    For example, it's an objective fact that the world is round. That is an objective fact which, like all objective facts, is completely uninfluenced by human perception. When everyone thought the world was flat, everyone was objectively wrong and the world was still round.

    But what would happen if not only I, but everyone in the world, suddenly called what you were wearing "pajamas"? Then what you are wearing would henceforth be defined as "pajamas" and the next edition of the dictionary would even have that as the definition and it would be no less incorrect to call them "pajamas" than it is to call it a "suit" today. Whether the definition is "correct" is entirely based on human perception. So the definition of "suit" is subjective. The definition of "pajama" is subjective. The definition of "boy" is subjective. The definition of "girl" is subjective.

    So I think I have firmly established that no one is objectively a boy or a girl, including my friend. All definitions are subjective.

    And if you disagree and still maintain that my friend is objectively a girl, please address my challenge and don't repeat that claim until you have supported it.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    No. That's the thing. It is not my opinion. If they have a XX chromosome and female genitalia, then they are a female. A girl.
    I subjectively disagree with your subjective definition and subjectively consider a person who identifies as a boy to be a boy. Your subjective opinion to the contrary is noted but subjective nonetheless.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    An opinion is something stated which isn't based on facts. In the English language, boy and girl have a very distinct meaning as I have noted multiple times. A tg person is simply someone whose brain tells them that they are a different sex than the one they are biologically assigned to. I am in no way offering my opinion when I call them according to their biological sex.
    If you mean you are saying "You have a vagina", then yes, you are referring to a biological fact. But if you call a trans male a "girl", you are CHOOSING to use their biological sex instead of their gender identity when you address them. You can choose to do either and whichever one you pick, it is indeed based on your opinion on how words should be used.
    Last edited by mican333; Today at 07:40 AM.

 

 
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