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  1. #21
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    I’m not going to waste time on your pedantic maneuvering.
    When your argument is that being "trans-species" and "transgendered" is the same thing, it's not overly pedantic to point out that you are incorrect since gender and species are indeed different things.

    What did you expect? I guess nothing short of me just agreeing with your argument will satisfy you.?

    But I don't agree with your arguments just because you make them. If you want to argue that they are the same in all relevant ways (which does allow for differences), then make that argument.

    If you don't want to do the work to show how they are so similar that what goes for one goes for the other, then I guess that argument is dead in the water.

  2. #22
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Pedantry may be the wrong word. But you want to argue whether gender and species are the exact same thing, rather than address my point that the issues of identification are similar enough for a comparison. Evasion after evasion makes having any discourse with you just not worth the trouble. That doesn't make you the winner.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  3. #23
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    When all you are saying is that they are the same, my only valid rebuttal is to point out that they are not the same which is what I did. If you want to argue that they are the same in a particular way that will support your conclusion, then you need to specifically point out that similarity instead of just saying they are the same. And I do note that you said they are both delusional. And in response, I asked you to support that the trans gendered are delusional. And you did not respond to that claim of support

    Again, I’m not going to just take your word for these things. If you want to make an argument by tying them together, you need to do more than just say they are the same.

    So whether you want to attempt to support that argument is up to you If you don’t, for whatever reason, then the argument fails for lack of support. And we can leave it there. You don’t need to explain to me why you aren’t going to support your argument and the blame game is a waste of time.

  4. #24
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    When all you are saying is that they are the same, my only valid rebuttal is to point out that they are not the same which is what I did.
    Bu11shit. You understood what I was saying, and chose to take a perverse approach.

    It is NOT a personal attack to comment on your standard debate approach, which is to evade and obstruct progress.
    Last edited by evensaul; December 18th, 2018 at 12:48 PM. Reason: edited out the personal attack portion of the post.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  5. #25
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Bu11shit. You understood what I was saying, and chose to take a perverse approach.
    No, I don't understand exactly what you are saying.

    I understand that you are saying that transgenderism and trans-species are similar in a fashion where if one concedes that transspecies is wacky, then one must concede that the same goes for transgenderism. But then to coherently make that argument, you need to specify what particular aspects of both of them makes it so that what goes for one goes for the other. And since I can't read your mind, you need to specifically state what that is and I don't know how you are going to approach that until you actually make that argument.

    So if all you are actually going to say is "they are the same", then my response is "no they are not the same". I do know that you mean that they are specific in particular ways but if you don't identify those particular aspects, I can't respond to them.

    I can't rebut an more specific argument on why they are similar before you actually make it so you do need to make a specific argument before I can make a specific response.

  6. #26
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    What lie concerning marriage are you referring to?
    The lie there was that two people of the same sex can enter into marriage. It is a fiction. When two people of the same sex enter a relationship, it is something else, not marriage, regardless what people and the law now say.

    On the issue of "transgender" the lie is that people can actually change gender. It is not possible. It is a grand hoax being rolled out the same way that "same sex marriage" was previously. And we're supposed to refer to a biological male who "identifies" as a women "she" and "her" to affirm the fraud, or we're being "hateful". It's complete crap, but standard fare from the Left.

    ---------- Post added at 12:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:45 PM ----------

    Mican, I've asked you to not post in my threads, but you insist on doing so. Either debate constructively, or go away.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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  8. #27
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Mican, I've asked you to not post in my threads, but you insist on doing so. Either debate constructively, or go away.
    Since I think miscommunication is a source of frustration, let me state your argument via logic chain to make clear that I understand what you are saying (which will hopefully lead to more constructive debate).

    So this is your argument as best I understand it (and please note that I am not conceding this argument but just stating it.

    1.FACT - Folkin are delusional.
    2.FACT - In all relevant ways to the debate, Folkin and the transgendered are the same
    3.THEREFORE - the transgendered are delusional.

    This is essentially your argument, right? If not, make changes to the above logic chain so it does accurately represent your argument and then I will provide a rebuttal to it.


    And btw, it's against ODN rules to ask someone not to post.
    Last edited by mican333; December 18th, 2018 at 01:28 PM.

  9. #28
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    If you are as confused on the issue as your questions seem to indicate that you are, I suggest you do some research on the issue.
    Evasive. Irrelevant. Why did you even bother?

    What does "identify as male" mean?
    Should be an easy answer given your posts....

    ---------- Post added at 07:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:15 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    It's an observable fact that I identify as a male. I'm not sure on what basis one can logically say that that is not an objective fact.
    I asked "how is this objective" not "observable".

    1. When you "identify as male" what does that mean?

    2. When a person can identify as they wish, and change that identity at any time, that clearly is the definition of subjective!
    2a. or you need to define "objective", cause you are currently making 0 (as in no) sense to me.

  10. #29
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Evasive. Irrelevant. Why did you even bother?
    Well, I was evading answering six separate questions as well I should. I am certainly under no obligation to answer every question you might ask.

    If you are going to narrow it down to one question, I'll respond.


    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    What does "identify as male" mean?
    Should be an easy answer given your posts....
    To identify as male is to consider oneself to be a male.

    As an example, you consider yourself to be male and therefore you identify as male.



    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    I asked "how is this objective" not "observable".
    Observed reality qualifies as objective fact. That fact that you are seeing a computer screen right now makes it an objective fact that you are looking at a computer. And the fact that you can observe that you identify as male makes it an objective fact that you identify as male.


    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    2. When a person can identify as they wish, and change that identity at any time, that clearly is the definition of subjective!
    Sure. But then all evidence points to one not being able to just change their gender identity at any time.

    Can YOU decide, right now, to change your gender identity? Of course not. Of course you can put on a dress and say "I'm a girl" but it's pretty obvious that you would not actually believe that you are a girl and would still, if you are being honest with yourself, consider yourself a man. Even if you had gender reassignment surgery and replaced your penis with a vagina, you would consider yourself to be a "man with a vagina" instead of an actual woman.

    So I very much doubt that you, me, or anyone else can just change their gender identity by simple choice.

    And you are going to argue that a person can just change their gender identity by simple choice, please support that position.

  11. #30
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Belthazor.

    I guess you weren't satisfied with my last post but I assure you that I gave the best answer I could. Again,

    To self-identify as something means that one think that he/she is that something.

    So if one identifies as male, then they consider themselves to be male.

    I honestly don't know what other answer to give.

    Or are you trying to ask me what causes one to identify as a certain gender? I'll give you an honest answer to that question. The answer is I don't know and I don't think there is a scientific consensus on the answer. I did a bit of research and found an article that indicated that a trans man's brain has a physical structure similar to a cis man's brain so that seems to indicate that the reason one identifies as a certain gender is because of the physical structure of the brain so to put in simple terms a trans man is a person with a man's body and a woman's brain. But again, I don't think a solid conclusion has been reached.

    So hopefully that clears up any misunderstanding. I was trying to give a good answer.
    Last edited by mican333; December 19th, 2018 at 09:11 PM.

  12. #31
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    So....

    Firstly: Trans men can have periods. This is a fact. Trans men are people who were born women but have decided to live as men in society. They have periods. This is undeniably true. The school policy above is designed to recognize this reality and ensure that they get education about menstration and have menstration products available to them. That is not especially outrageous.

    As to Evensaul and his ilk
    His root complaint is simply that we acknowledge trans-identity at all. His position is clear that we should not. That we should strictly treat this as a mental illness, and force trans people to live as cis-gendered people (at least when they are in public), I'm sure in their own homes, he probably doesn't much care. If that is wrong, let me know, but it seems that is your real argument, not that you think that trans-men cannot have periods.

    What is gender?
    For some folks, this is a black and white issue. I think they are fundamentally wrong, but I understand the instinct. The problem is they only judge by their own personal experience.

    For you, you have a set of genitalia, you have a set of chromosomes and it all feels perfectly fine. All is right for you, and this is good.

    But, there are many people who are not like that. There are people with chromosomal mutations and abnormalities that are abnormal. There are people born with two sets of genitalia. There are people born with dysfunctional genitalia. There are people who are qhysiccally male or feemale, but have a deep instinctual attractiong to the same sex rather than a different sex. There are people born qhysically male or feemale, who feel a deep instinctual sense that they have the wrong body part. You can't honestly say you know what any of these expereinces are like.

    All of these states are real, they happen, they are part of the spectrum of human expereince. They are also witnessed in other animal species as well. We know that these states are part of living. The are not normative. They are abnormal. But abnormal and unreal or imaginary are very different things.

    Is gender your body, mind, or soul?
    When you are cic-gender, stright etc... we would say that there is little difference between your physical gender and your mental gender (we will get to soul in a bit). These are in some state of harmony/agreement. But there are many cases where this may not be true.

    1. You could have your genetalia damaged either physically or changed by hormonal imbalances. They you may well feel like a man or woman but yoru body falls short of your expectations.
    2. You could have the body of a man or woman, but your mind could instinctively beleive you were another gender. This is called gender dysphoria.
    3. You could be born as both a man and a woman (a hermaphrodite)

    The first case demonstrates rather clearly that the physical equipment you are born with is not the whole determinant of your sexual identity. If your dick is cut off for some reason, you are still a man. You might not feel as manly as you could, but you don't start to think of yourself as a woman or a non-sexed human. Your mental identity of gender is not intrinsicly controlled by your physical sex. Same goes for #3.

    Now consider the many virtues we may associate wtih masculinity and femininity. Men might be strong, agressive, brave, prone to anger, a provider etc... Women could be nurturing, gentle, prone to fear, passionate, etc... Steryotypes yes, but ones based in average traits. Well, of course, there are a great many exceptions. A nurturing man is no less of a man in most estimations, yet we recognie this as a femenin trait. A woman prone to agression may be unusual, but we don't deny she is still a woman.

    This leads us to observe there is a vast range of physical, social, emotional, and mental traits associated with men and women that goes well beyond their gonads and hormones. Yet, there are interconnections as hormones drive some of these differences. We know that many people don't share all the traits we associate with men or women, there are many differnet combinations and variations.

    So if some men have, lets say 4 traits that are more femanine than masculan, then some men perhaps have 20 and are more femanin than masculin. So much so, they feel on balance, that their physical masculinity is the minority view, and the incorrect one.

    The idea that your gonads are soverign flies in the face of our identity as intilectual and social creatures. A man with no legs may be wildly abnormal, but they are still considered a human being and a man. We identify ourselves not by the limitations of our bodies so much as the limitations of our mind and character.

    So is it so impossible that someone who feels their mind and character are that of a gender different from ther body would deside that their mind and character should be what is obeyed and their body stands as a hinderance?

    The attitude that we should not allow or accomidate people who have such feelings or expereinces denies the idea that the will, the mind, the identity we have in our interior lives is more important than the flesh. We abandoned the notions that your blood gives you entitlement and privilage long ago. It is what you make of your life and how you behave towards others, and what you give to society that determines your worth in this modern world.

    The spirit
    If you are a dualist, or you are religious consider this. Does your spirit have a gender? Religion usually teaches that your body and your soul are seperate things, and the mortal body dies, the imortal spirity lives on. The body is a mere shell, the spirit is your true self.

    Does your spirit have a gender? Are you a male spirit or female spirit? If you die, then do you loose your gender? Do you become non-sexed in the afterlife?

    If you say we keep our gender, then what is it that defines a male spirit from a female spirit? And if it is simply will, then couldn't you change your gender? What if a male spirit found itself in a female body? Is there some reason that is impossible?

    If you say that spirits have no gender, then why can't someone decide they don't like the gender they were born with and try to live in a different way? If the spirit is paramount, why are we so worried about what chromosomes the body was born with. Why should that imprison the spirit unconditionally to this one role?

    Abnormality
    Yes, trans-gender and hermaphrodites are abnormal. That is to say, they are the exception rather than the general rule. They are a small minority. So is being left handed. We've managed to realize that being left handed may be unusual, but it is not actually dangerous, imoral, or even problematic. It is something we try to accomidate for so left handed people can live normal lives. They make left handed objects so they can be comfortable.

    Now, there are abnormalities, say being a psychopath, that make you a clear and present danger to society. We don't acccomidate for abnormalities that make you a threat to everyone else. We do our best to change that when we can. We also try to fix abnormalities that people don't want to live with, such as a congenetal disease, or even an aquired one.

    But being trans genedered is not like these. It doesn't pose any real risk to society, and the people don't want to be cured of it except to be able to change their appearance and social standing to match the way they feel as a person. It is the body they want to be cured of because they feel it is the problem, not their mind.

    Imagine if we said, no, the body you were born with is the one you mist keep. Conjoined twins should stay connected. Cleft pallets should always be preserved. Hermaphrodites must keep both sets of genetalia. We only work to cure what people want to be cured of. If they say they want to be cured of their physical sex, then that is their choice and it does you no real harm.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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  14. #32
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    So....

    (Evensaul's) root complaint is simply that we acknowledge trans-identity at all. His position is clear that we should not. That we should strictly treat this as a mental illness, and force trans people to live as cis-gendered people (at least when they are in public), I'm sure in their own homes, he probably doesn't much care. If that is wrong, let me know, but it seems that is your real argument, not that you think that trans-men cannot have periods.
    So help me understand how and why I'm wrong by answering some questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Firstly: Trans men can have periods.
    Can you define what "trans men" means, in plain English? Does it mean women who believe they are men? Or women who pretend to be men? Write a simple clear sentence including the word "women" (and hermaphrodites, if you like) that helps describe the meaning of "trans men". And don't include the word "identify". Because I used to think "trans" meant "changed to", but now I see that I was wrong - there isn't really an operation to change the gender. It's mostly a mental thing, from what you've described, but "identify" is a word that suggests possible flip flops depending on the person's mood, like the guy in the otherkin link above who says the fox part of him comes and goes.

    Let's say that I and my ilk become "woke" and recognize that "trans men" exist and have periods, and "trans identity" people are accepted as normal by everyone, everywhere. Should we all then drop the prefix "trans" and just refer to them as men? Why or why not?
    Last edited by evensaul; December 20th, 2018 at 08:35 AM.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  15. #33
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Let's say that I and my ilk become "woke" and recognize that "trans men" exist and have periods, and "trans identity" people are accepted as normal by everyone, everywhere. Should we all then drop the prefix "trans" and just refer to them as men? Why or why not?
    This is addressed to the thread in general as Belt has asked something similar and I think this might help move things along.

    A very simple and clear way to view a trans woman is a woman's brain born into a man's body. One can say that that is a bit of an oversimplification but that is indeed the general concept. The mind/brain/gender is different than the body/sex.

    And they should be referred to as "trans" since that's the word that represents people who have the brain of one sex and the body of another.

  16. #34
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Because we're running short on time, I won't wait for Sig, but will reply to your post, Mican.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And they should be referred to as "trans" since that's the word that represents people who have the brain of one sex and the body of another.
    If two people of the same sex supposedly get married, would you, Mican, say they have entered into a homosexual marriage, or a marriage? Doesn't having to add the "homosexual" or "trans" before "marriage" or "men" suggest there really is a difference, and maybe even an inequality? Why is that necessary, and shouldn't it be avoided, if we are all to believe there are no significant differences?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  17. #35
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    If two people of the same sex supposedly get married, would you, Mican, say they have entered into a homosexual marriage, or a marriage? Doesn't having to add the "homosexual" or "trans" before "marriage" or "men" suggest there really is a difference, and maybe even an inequality? Why is that necessary, and shouldn't it be avoided, if we are all to believe there are no significant differences?
    Whether one should differentiate is entirely dependent on the situation so there is no rule that one always should or should not differentiate. I actually have a trans man friend and in almost any situation, I will just refer to him as I would any other guy and just refer to him as a man. And if there's a situation (like this one) where it's relevant to the conversation to point out that he's a trans man, then I will refer to him that way.

    And the same goes for my married gay step brother. I'll refer to him as simply married unless the content of the conversation makes it necessary to point out that he has a husband instead of a wife.

    So we don't have to add "homosexual" or "Trans" when we refer to such people but sometimes it makes sense to do that.

  18. #36
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Whether one should differentiate is entirely dependent on the situation so there is no rule that one always should or should not differentiate. I actually have a trans man friend and in almost any situation, I will just refer to him as I would any other guy and just refer to him as a man. And if there's a situation (like this one) where it's relevant to the conversation to point out that he's a trans man, then I will refer to him that way.

    And the same goes for my married gay step brother. I'll refer to him as simply married unless the content of the conversation makes it necessary to point out that he has a husband instead of a wife.

    So we don't have to add "homosexual" or "Trans" when we refer to such people but sometimes it makes sense to do that.
    So in most situations, "trans men" will just be referred to as men, and "trans women" will just be women. Doesn't that pretty much obliterate the current meanings of the words "man" and "woman". Won't the liberal agenda change the definitions, if there will be any, of what man and woman mean? Can you give me the new definitions of those words?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  19. #37
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    So in most situations, "trans men" will just be referred to as men, and "trans women" will just be women. Doesn't that pretty much obliterate the current meanings of the words "man" and "woman". Won't the liberal agenda change the definitions, if there will be any, of what man and woman mean? Can you give me the new definitions of those words?
    In the dictionary there are multiple definitions for most words so adding a definition based on the person‘s identification as a particular gender is not particularly problematic. Definitions are always changing. It’s perfectly natural.

  20. #38
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Yes, definitions change. That is exactly what will happen, and I'm glad you're willing to acknowledge that.

    During oral arguments on homosexual marriage, Chief Justice Roberts said "Every definition that I looked up, prior to about a dozen years ago, defined marriage as unity between a man and a woman as husband and wife. Obviously, if you succeed, that core definition will no longer be operable." The same will apply to definitions of man and woman. If anyone can claim to be a man or a woman, it seems to me that the current core definition will no longer be operable. What do you think the core definitions should be?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  21. #39
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Yes, definitions change. That is exactly what will happen, and I'm glad you're willing to acknowledge that.

    During oral arguments on homosexual marriage, Chief Justice Roberts said "Every definition that I looked up, prior to about a dozen years ago, defined marriage as unity between a man and a woman as husband and wife. Obviously, if you succeed, that core definition will no longer be operable." The same will apply to definitions of man and woman. If anyone can claim to be a man or a woman, it seems to me that the current core definition will no longer be operable. What do you think the core definitions should be?
    I need to know exactly what defines a core definition before I can answer that question. How is it determined what a core definition is?

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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    From the dictionary you used earlier:

    man
    noun

    1 An adult human male.

    woman
    noun

    1 An adult human female.


    The first or primary meaning of a word is the core definition.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

 

 
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