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  1. #61
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Why must there be only two genders? Why not many more?

    Some countries recognize non-binary as a third gender: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_...-binary_gender

    Why can't we add "trans male", "trans female", "fox", etc, to give people lots more options for self identification? If it is all about making people comfortable with what they feel about themselves, then why limit the options to just two? That seems unnecessarily restrictive.
    First off, gender is based on sex so "fox", which is a species and not a sex, would not qualify.

    And if we want to add "non-binary", that's fine. I actually know a non-binary person who has had a child so of course non-binary people can menstruate as well (which is relevant to the OP).

    And if you want to argue for adding a bunch more categories, go ahead but doing so is not an argument against recognizing trans people. Making facetious arguments for the thing that you are against does not equate a valid argument against it. If you want to make an argument against recognizing recognizing transgenderism, you will need to make a direct coherent argument against it.

  2. #62
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    The anti-trans folks' penchant for showing their disdain for trans-acceptance by including genders like "fox" or "apache helicopter" is nothing more than a slippery slope argument.

    BTW, shouldn't this be moved to an actual debate thread? At 4 pages, it's way past a discussion about the news. The water cooler's empty, dudes!

  3. #63
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    First off, gender is based on sex so "fox", which is a species and not a sex, would not qualify.
    Based on sex, originally. But this is a brave new world where anything is possible.

    Okay, let's do try to set some realistic limit.

    Would you agree to five genders? male, trans-male, female, trans-female, and non-quad? I think that is necessary, at minimum, so that people can choose what makes them most comfortable. Otherwise, you're forcing a trans person to identify as fully male or fully female, and I suspect there would be a great many trans people who don't feel completely one or the other.

    You may think this a facetious suggestion, but I think it is completely logical.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  4. #64
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Based on sex, originally. But this is a brave new world where anything is possible.

    Okay, let's do try to set some realistic limit.

    Would you agree to five genders? male, trans-male, female, trans-female, and non-quad? I think that is necessary, at minimum, so that people can choose what makes them most comfortable.
    But then I assume you are neither a trans person or know what the trans community wants well enough to speak on their behalf on what they actually desire.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Otherwise, you're forcing a trans person to identify as fully male or fully female, and I suspect there would be a great many trans people who don't feel completely one or the other.
    And when these people come forward and directly state such concerns is when I will seriously consider what you propose.

    I KNOW that many, probably most, trans people want to be identifies by their gender identity which is a good reason to do that. I don't know of people who fit in other categories who likewise want other categories to be likewise recognized which is why I currently do not hold the position that we should do so.

  5. #65
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I KNOW that many, probably most, trans people want to be identifies by their gender identity which is a good reason to do that. I don't know of people who fit in other categories who likewise want other categories to be likewise recognized which is why I currently do not hold the position that we should do so.
    You speak as if the trans community is a united and cohesive block that all believe the same thing. I'll bet Sig knows a trans or two, and he thinks we should have a plethora of genders to make each person comfortable with however they want to identify, including "fox". So I doubt you speak for the trans community as a whole. Most certainly there will be at least one trans person who doesn't want to be pigeonholed into one of the three choices you'd approve. You're being very narrow minded, Mican. "Many, probably most..." means there are still a great many other trans people that wouldn't be happy with your position.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  6. #66
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    You speak as if the trans community is a united and cohesive block that all believe the same thing.
    No I don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    I'll bet Sig knows a trans or two, and he thinks we should have a plethora of genders to make each person comfortable with however they want to identify, including "fox".
    Again, "Fox" cannot be gender since it's not based on sex. Nor have I argued that people who want to identify with a different gender entirely should not be allowed to do so. And if one wants to identify as a "fox", I won't stand in their way either until I'm aware of a good reason to oppose it.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    So I doubt you speak for the trans community as a whole.
    And I never indicated that I did. It's pretty clear that in this discussion I am speaking for no one but myself.


    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Most certainly there will be at least one trans person who doesn't want to be pigeonholed into one of the three choices you'd approve.
    Which is not to say that I disapprove of their identified gender.

    When this person tells me of the gender they identify themself as, I will then consider it and decide whether I approve of it or not.

    But until then I can't approve of it because I don't know of any person who actually wants it to be considered a valid gender.


    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    You're being very narrow minded, Mican. "Many, probably most..." means there are still a great many other trans people that wouldn't be happy with your position.
    They wouldn't be happy with the misrepresentation of my position that you are forwarding, that is.

    My position is that I will consider their desires on the issue when they communicate them to me (but not before). I can't imagine that any trans person would have a problem with such a position.

  7. #67
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Again, "Fox" cannot be gender since it's not based on sex.
    Isn't gender a social construct and as such can mean anything people want it to? If we can make room in the definition for trans identity, then we can make room for otherkin. There are no rules and the dynamics are fluid. You can't restrict gender identity by personal belief. You must be inclusive, Mican.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    My position is that I will consider their desires on the issue when they communicate them to me (but not before).
    This is transparent evasion. Again. You were willing to speak in hypotheticals, and now you slam the door on them when it goes beyond your personal comfort zone.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  8. #68
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Isn't gender a social construct and as such can mean anything people want it to?
    No, the word "gender" has an actual definition that refers to "sex". If we are referring to identities that are related to species instead of sex we need to use a different word.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    If we can make room in the definition for trans identity, then we can make room for otherkin.
    Sure. We just have to use another word to refer to that kind of identity. Since sex and species are different, we need different words to refer to their identities.



    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    This is transparent evasion. Again. You were willing to speak in hypotheticals, and now you slam the door on them when it goes beyond your personal comfort zone.
    And you are wrong about me. Again.

    I addressed your hypothetical scenario. To repeat. If a hypothetical trans person hypothetically communicates with me about his desires to have his gender recognized or whatever else, I would consider his request. So I told you what I would do in a given hypothetical situation.

  9. #69
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    No, the word "gender" has an actual definition that refers to "sex". If we are referring to identities that are related to species instead of sex we need to use a different word.
    Didn't you argue that definitions change? So this argument fails.


    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Sure. We just have to use another word to refer to that kind of identity. Since sex and species are different, we need different words to refer to their identities.
    But if they don't WANT another separate word, and want to feel included, why would you exclude them? Would you have agreed to use a different word for same-sex marriage? Not a chance. But here, you want a different word. Seems like a double standard based on your own desire for discrimination against otherkin.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    If a hypothetical trans person hypothetically communicates with me about his desires to have his gender recognized or whatever else, I would consider his request. So I told you what I would do in a given hypothetical situation.
    Refusing to discuss the need of the minority now shows you are likely to discriminate against them.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  10. #70
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Didn't you argue that definitions change? So this argument fails.
    Pointing out that definitions do change is not support that definitions should change. Since it's good that we have different words for different things, we should continue to do so.


    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    But if they don't WANT another separate word, and want to feel included, why would you exclude them?
    I've already explained it. Sex and species are two different things and therefore there needs to be a different word for both things.


    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Would you have agreed to use a different word for same-sex marriage? Not a chance.
    Actually, I sometimes do use different terms for either kind of marriage. When I say "gay marriage" or "traditional marriage" I am indeed referring to two different things and therefore separating them, just like if I say "gender identity" and "species identity".

    And before I would even consider changing a definition to make an otherkin feel better, I would need to be confronted with such a request by and otherkin.

    Since the reason for the differentiation is solid and I've seen no REAL reason to not do it (as no REAL otherkin has expressed that a change is desired), I see no reason to change the language.



    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Refusing to discuss the need of the minority now shows you are likely to discriminate against them.
    I will consider the need of minority when such a need is expressed to me. And I've likewise told you what I would hypothetically do if a hypothetical need was expressed.

  11. #71
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Pointing out that definitions do change is not support that definitions should change. Since it's good that we have different words for different things, we should continue to do so.
    But in this case, you're using the current definition to argue that's what the definition should remain. Very different than your earlier arguments.

    Rather than respond to each sentence, I'll summarize:

    You have no rational, logical case to keep gender choices limited to three. If you believe non-binary can be included, you have to logically allow that category to be subdivided into a great many more. If you believe male and female can be understood to include trans-male and trans-female, then you must logically also allow those to each be their own gender. If the goal is to make people feel good about themselves and not feel excluded, then you must accept any and all proposed genders. Any position to the contrary is irrational.

    I'm sure you'll continue arguing to the contrary, but we both know your position is untenable.

    I've made my point, and will probably move on.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  12. #72
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    But in this case, you're using the current definition to argue that's what the definition should remain.
    No. I argue that separating definitions is a good thing because communication works better when two different things have two different words.



    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    You have no rational, logical case to keep gender choices limited to three. If you believe non-binary can be included, you have to logically allow that category to be subdivided into a great many more. If you believe male and female can be understood to include trans-male and trans-female, then you must logically also allow those to each be their own gender. If the goal is to make people feel good about themselves and not feel excluded, then you must accept any and all proposed genders. Any position to the contrary is irrational.
    No, I must CONSIDER all proposed genders. Once I've considered it, then I will make a judgment on whether the reasons to incorporate the requested definitions outweigh the reasons to not do it.

    And I've made it clear that that is what I would do in regards from any serious request from any actual transgendered person.

    If an actual transgendered person makes such a request, I will consider it. What my final verdict will be is dependent on the request.




    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    I'm sure you'll continue arguing to the contrary, but we both know your position is untenable.
    No. I'll just keep pointing out you aren't really addressing my actual position.

    I have never, in this discussion, rejected any request from a real or hypothetical transgendered to add another gender to the mix.

  13. #73
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    When I was in school I was taught that sex or gender was determined by the x or y chromosomes a person possesses. Someone with two x chromosomes if female; someone with an x and a y chromosome is male. When a baby is born his genital organs show whether it is male or female but they don't determine it. They can be surgically altered so that the person appears to be the opposite of his birth sex but the chromosome cannot.

    One thing that is generally overlooked in discussions such as these is God's view. He created us male and female; he established marriage as a union between a man and a woman. The confusion about this subject could be avoided if we started with what he has revealed to us.
    The brutal, soul-shaking truth is that we are so earthly minded we are of no heavenly use.
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  14. #74
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by theophilus View Post
    When I was in school I was taught that sex or gender was determined by the x or y chromosomes a person possesses. Someone with two x chromosomes if female; someone with an x and a y chromosome is male. When a baby is born his genital organs show whether it is male or female but they don't determine it. They can be surgically altered so that the person appears to be the opposite of his birth sex but the chromosome cannot.
    What you were taught in school has been superseded by a modern understanding that there’s a difference between a physical sex, a gender that a person identifies with and their sexual orientation. You have to understand the context when people talk about these three aspects of gender.

    Here, your non-sequitur about chromosomes ignores the other aspects of gender that is really what everyone is talking about. It’s a red herring disguised as a straw man argument to point our that people cannot have a different mental model from their physical existence. Until that is understood, and certainly schools from when you were a kid didn’t, you’re not discussing the same thing.


    One thing that is generally overlooked in discussions such as these is God's view. He created us male and female; he established marriage as a union between a man and a woman. The confusion about this subject could be avoided if we started with what he has revealed to us.
    In your religion maybe but not everyone shares the same beliefs in your God. Your point only applies to other Christians. The rest of us are all ‘wut?’

  15. #75
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Wait, now you're introducing the words "sex" and "sexual", which is further complicating the issue. Do you mean sex and sexual as in sexual activity, gender, or some new definition being created? I thought "gender identity" was simply about feeling like a man or woman, independent of sexual attraction or sexual behavior. Explain.
    I'm not sure if you noticed, but Sex (the act) and Sex (the gender) are rather connected to one another in various ways. You were asking about Sex (gender) so that is what I was talking about.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  16. #76
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    I'm not sure if you noticed, but Sex (the act) and Sex (the gender) are rather connected to one another in various ways. You were asking about Sex (gender) so that is what I was talking about.
    Your trolling aside, the part about "including people that just don't like sex" seemed irrelevant to gender.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  17. #77
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Youre trolling aside, the part about "including people that just don't like sex" seemed irrelevant to gender.
    I made a very long, nuanced post that explains the gender issue in great detail and poses many questions for you to consider, and all you can muster is to dicker over the meaning of a few words. It's very apparent you have not interested any kind of real dialog on the subject where you might have to put in some thought or effort.

    I answered your question and you just change the subject. Grow a pair and debate earnestly.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  18. #78
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    I read your long post and thanked you for it. It was a good post and I had no major issues with it, so I didnt reply. And you have a problem with that? Or do you have a problem with the fact that I did reply to the next one? Or do you just have a problem?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  19. #79
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    In your religion maybe but not everyone shares the same beliefs in your God. Your point only applies to other Christians. The rest of us are all ‘wut?’
    What people believe about God doesn't change the reality that he exists and will judge all of us.
    The brutal, soul-shaking truth is that we are so earthly minded we are of no heavenly use.
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  20. #80
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by theophilus View Post
    What people believe about God doesn't change the reality that he exists and will judge all of us.
    While I won't challenge you on whether God exists, I don't think that you speak for God and therefore know God's position on the transgendered.

    I personally think God wants us to treat each other with respect and empathy and therefore wants us to treat transgendered people like that.

    And I can no more prove that my position regarding God's desire is correct than you can prove that your position is correct.

    So unless you can provide evidence for your position, we are in agree to disagree territory.

 

 
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