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  1. #141
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    They can't. Trans boys can, but boys can't. It's just a basic natural difference.
    Trans boys are boys.

    Your argument is like saying motor vehicles can't drive on two wheel. Motorcycles can, but motor vehicles cannot.


    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Now if we just go with "anyone" can be a boy, the word really looses it's meaning.
    And since we aren't doing that, this is not an issue.


    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    For if you are a girl in every way but how "you" feel, what are you appealing to actually be?
    A male. Obviously.

    I mean we both feel like we are males (I assume you are the same sex and gender as me) and it makes perfect sense for use to consider ourselves to be male. And the same goes for the transgendered males that I personally know.



    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    IOW, if the definition of boy can be anyone, what is a trans male identifying with/as?
    The definition of boys IS NOT anyone. If one's gender is (as in they identify as) female, then they do not fit the definition of "boy".




    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    How did I know he was a "guy" when I met him?
    The same way you identify ANY guy you meet for the first time.

    If I met you in person and brought my brother along, you might think "Who's that guy with Mican?" because you see a guy next to me. And if I brought one of my trans male friends, it would be the exact same thing.



    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Look, I'm all for respect for nearly all (there are exceptions). I just don't see people getting mad if a pronoun isn't what you want it to be.
    Whatever you say, lady.

    Of course I am not seriously calling you a "lady" but it wold not be unreasonable for you to get a little annoyed if I kept calling you "lady" and referred to you in the female manner including pronouns. I think that goes for most people.


    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Where you are at (it seems) is we need to change the def of "boy" to include anyone, but you still hold onto other gender/sex/whatever pronouns (male, guy, etc) to mean a definition that is not consistent with "boy".
    I am using a very consistent and exclusive definition of "boy". If your gender identity is male, you are a boy. If your gender identity is female you are NOT a boy.

    It is a definition shift but it's not a definition elimination. The term "boy" does not refer to everyone and therefore definitely still has meaning.



    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    It is confusing and I expect tolerance from all sides, which would include trans people as well. If someone is talking respectfully to you in every way but miss a pronoun you prefer I just don't see it as a catastrophe.
    Then I suggest you test out that theory by going to the toughest bar in your town and talk to all of they guys there in a respectful tone but use the female pronoun when addressing them. I think the results might be quite catastrophic.


    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    I don't think anyone in this thread has promoted trans people not having the same rights as anyone else. People need to lighten up and not look to take offense where none is intended.
    Well, I have referred both of my trans male friends as female in the past and they didn't take offense. And the reason was that in the past they looked female and did not inform me of a preference to be addressed as male. So I called them female and it was fine.

    But NOW, they identify themselves as male and maybe if I make an honest slip of the tongue since I knew them as females in the past, that's no problem either.

    But when it gets to the point where one KNOWS that they identify as male and CHOOSES to refer to them as female, it is very reasonably considered a sign of disrespect. It is not effectively different than going to a bar and calling a male stranger "lady" or "miss". It doesn't mean that the other person need freak out but it's very, very reasonable to think you are being disrespectful. I mean if one asks themselves "Why did he call me lady?", one is not likely to conclude that it was out of respect.

    If I seriously started calling you "lady" on this thread, whether it upset you or not, it would be hard to imagine that I was being respectful to you when I was doing that.

  2. #142
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    I think all this talk of gender binary choice is a little offensive and ignores those that are neither and other or even fluid. I trust that one day we can just be the best person we can be without having to justify ourselves to others.

    I donít understand why thereís an issue with having to use an extra word to address someone. We do it all the time with titles and other prefixes, middle names and suffixes.

  3. #143
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Trans boys are boys.
    No, generally they are a girl that feels like and wants to be treated like a "boy", per most everyone that has participated so far in this thread.

    ---------- Post added at 08:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:54 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Your argument is like saying motor vehicles can't drive on two wheel. Motorcycles can, but motor vehicles cannot.
    I don't get the analogy? Are you saying motor vehicles and motorcycles are the same?

    Do you see motor vehicles driving on two wheels often?

    ---------- Post added at 08:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:56 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    A male. Obviously.

    I mean we both feel like we are males (I assume you are the same sex and gender as me) and it makes perfect sense for use to consider ourselves to be male. And the same goes for the transgendered males that I personally know.
    Yes, you think anyone can be male now. First just "boys" now "male".
    Definition lost, as there is no "male" to appeal to...

    ---------- Post added at 09:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:58 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    The definition of boys IS NOT anyone. If one's gender is (as in they identify as) female, then they do not fit the definition of "boy".
    I didn't say is anyone, I said can be anyone, per you, if they identify that way.

    ---------- Post added at 09:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:01 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    The same way you identify ANY guy you meet for the first time.

    If I met you in person and brought my brother along, you might think "Who's that guy with Mican?" because you see a guy next to me. And if I brought one of my trans male friends, it would be the exact same thing.
    If nobody can tell the difference I don't see pronouns being "mixed up" in the first place, so no real issue here at all...at least until they go into a girls" rest room. I can understand why this might make the other "girls" uncomfortable. I don't think most guys care
    too much if a "girl" was in the "men's" rest room.

    ---------- Post added at 09:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:05 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I am using a very consistent and exclusive definition of "boy". If your gender identity is male, you are a boy. If your gender identity is female you are NOT a boy.

    It is a definition shift but it's not a definition elimination. The term "boy" does not refer to everyone and therefore definitely still has meaning.
    But it can be anyone that so chooses. Definition lost.

    ---------- Post added at 09:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:07 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    If I seriously started calling you "lady" on this thread, whether it upset you or not, it would be hard to imagine that I was being respectful to you when I was doing that.
    Sure, any comment can be made to insult. If someone is purposely saying something with the intention of offending, they probably will succeed.

    ---------- Post added at 09:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:10 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    I think all this talk of gender binary choice is a little offensive and ignores those that are neither and other or even fluid. I trust that one day we can just be the best person we can be without having to justify ourselves to others.

    I don’t understand why there’s an issue with having to use an extra word to address someone. We do it all the time with titles and other prefixes, middle names and suffixes.
    Because it is a natural part of reproduction so a common thing for people to talk about. It's part of communication to identify that which you are discussing. Does it matter who has sex with who (consenting adults)? Not really at all.
    To identify ones self is not justifying anything.

    There are those that are both/neither. I haven't seen them as really speaking out on the issue, but perhaps I am just ignorant of it.

  4. #144
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    No, generally they are a girl that feels like and wants to be treated like a "boy", per most everyone that has participated so far in this thread.
    Well, people choose the definition of words so it's a choice whether we call them boys or girls. So there is no objective standard but instead it's a question of what we SHOULD do.

    So SHOULD we recognize a transgender male as a male and therefore address in him in all relevant ways as a male and therefore call him a "boy"? If so, then he is indeed a boy.

    And since I maintain that we should show respect to transgendered males, they should be referred to, and therefore are, "boys".

    If you agree with my reasoning, then you must agree that they are boys. If you don't agree, then explain your disagreement.




    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    I don't get the analogy? Are you saying motor vehicles and motorcycles are the same?
    Motor cycles are a subset of motor vehicle just as trans boys are a subset of boys.

    So SOME motor vehicles have two wheels and some boys have periods.


    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Yes, you think anyone can be male now. First just "boys" now "male".
    Definition lost, as there is no "male" to appeal to...
    Those who have the gender identity of female cannot be a boy. so you are incorrect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    I didn't say is anyone, I said can be anyone, per you, if they identify that way.
    But only roughly half of the population DO identify as male. The other hand CAN'T BE male.

    You do realize that "identifying as male" is not just saying "I'm a male", right? It's just like with homosexuality. Assuming you are straight, you can't just say "I'm gay" and suddenly be gay and have an attraction to men.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    If nobody can tell the difference I don't see pronouns being "mixed up" in the first place, so no real issue here at all
    Okay. So you will typically recognize a trans male as a guy upon sight. And some of those guys can have periods.


    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    But it can be anyone that so chooses. Definition lost.
    It's not a choice. You identify as male and you cannot choose to identify as female. Even if you say "I'm a girl", you will always feel like a guy and that cannot change by choice or likely by any method.

    And it's the same for a trans male.


    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Sure, any comment can be made to insult. If someone is purposely saying something with the intention of offending, they probably will succeed.
    But even if it's not your intend to offend, if you are aware that someone will likely not like being referred to as the gender that they don’t identify as, then the choice to do it anyway shows that you are not concerned with whether you do something that they don't like and therefore is disrespectful.

    So assuming you want to show as much respect to transgendered people as you can, you will do your best to identify them as the gender that you assume they identify as in all relevant ways, including pronoun use.

    Just like I will consistently refer to you with the male pronoun because I figure that that is what you prefer.
    Last edited by mican333; March 2nd, 2019 at 09:26 AM.

  5. #145
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Well, people choose the definition of words so it's a choice whether we call them boys or girls.
    I see. In that case,

    this debate is over.

    In fact, all debates are now over, and I was just about to send another $20 ODN's way.

    If there are no definitions of words I just as well say:

    "sof svpopsswdw, csppewap da jkhs"

    You may have the last word, BUT, it will only mean ANYTHING to you, since no one else will know what you mean...

    Have a great evening Mican
    (no sarcasm intended there sir)

  6. #146
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    I see. In that case,

    this debate is over.

    In fact, all debates are now over, and I was just about to send another $20 ODN's way.

    If there are no definitions of words I just as well say:

    "sof svpopsswdw, csppewap da jkhs"

    You may have the last word, BUT, it will only mean ANYTHING to you, since no one else will know what you mean...

    Have a great evening Mican
    (no sarcasm intended there sir)
    I didn’t say that there are no definitions.

    I said people determine what the definitions are.

    If that is not true, then something else must determine what the definitions are. And obviously there is no external source (like a definition God) that determines what the definitions are so it's obviously people that decide what words mean.
    Last edited by mican333; March 3rd, 2019 at 06:14 AM.

 

 
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