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  1. #41
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    From the dictionary you used earlier:

    man
    noun

    1 An adult human male.

    woman
    noun

    1 An adult human female.


    The first or primary meaning of a word is the core definition.
    Then I would expect that the core definition will not change. The definition relating to the transgendered will likely be a secondary definition.
    Last edited by mican333; December 20th, 2018 at 10:51 AM.

  2. #42
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    And if the core definition of the word "gender" returned by popular opinion to meaning biological sex, and the idea of mentally identifying as one gender or another was stricken, you'd not really care?

    I call bu11shit. You care a great deal that the core definitions mean what you want them to mean. That's why you pointed to the definition of gender as a major support in your first post. Your "honest answer" is a lie.

    Edit: I see you've edited your post and deleted the supposed "honest answer" that you wouldn't care about core definitions.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  3. #43
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    And if the core definition of the word "gender" returned by popular opinion to meaning biological sex, and the idea of mentally identifying as one gender or another was stricken, you'd not really care?

    I call bu11shit. You care a great deal that the core definitions mean what you want them to mean. That's why you pointed to the definition of gender as a major support in your first post. Your "honest answer" is a lie.
    Well, I would care if the definition of gender was changed as you suggested. But you weren’t asking me about that. We were specifically discussing the definition of man. And I recognize both definitions. One is in regard to birth characteristics and the other is in regards to gender identity and since both have legitimate usage, I don’t really care which is placed first. Totally removing a particular definition is another issue entirely and I would care about that.

    And I was trying to answer questions in as straightforward a manner as I could to avoid annoying you. And yet you still attack me personally and called me a liar.

    So let’s play nice, all right?

    P

  4. #44
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Well, I would care if the definition of gender was changed as you suggested. But you weren’t asking me about that. We were specifically discussing the definition of man. And I recognize both definitions. One is in regard to birth characteristics and the other is in regards to gender identity and since both have legitimate usage, I don’t really care which is placed first. Totally removing a particular definition is another issue entirely and I would care about that.

    And I was trying to answer questions in as straightforward a manner as I could to avoid annoying you. And yet you still attack me personally and called me a liar.

    So let’s play nice, all right?

    P
    Wouldn't you like to see the core definition of man read something like "Any person who self identifies as a human male"?

    Going back to Roberts on homosexual marriage, he continued "You're not seeking to join the institution, you're seeking to change the institution." Doesn't that apply here? Aren't liberals not just seeking to have some people included as male or female, but to change what those words actually mean, or to essentially render any definition meaningless? Aren't you included in that group and have that agenda?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  5. #45
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Well, then be honest. Wouldn't you like to see the core definition of man read something like "Any person who self identifies as a human male"?
    Again, I find both definitions "Any person who self identifies as a human male" and "A person born with male physical characteristics" to be valid definitions and don't really care which is placed above the other in the dictionary (which is how you've defined "core definition"). So if you are asking me if I would be fine if the first definition read "Any person who self identifies as a human male", yes, that is fine with me. But it's also fine the other way.

    I don't think the order is really going to effect much in how we use the words which is why I'm pretty ambivalent.



    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Going back to Roberts on homosexual marriage, he continued "You're not seeking to join the institution, you're seeking to change the institution." Doesn't that apply here? Aren't liberals not just seeking to have some people included as male or female, but to change what those words actually mean, or to essentially render any definition meaningless? Be honest. Aren't you included in that group and have that agenda?
    I very much disagree that that is the agenda.

    From my perspective, the primary agenda here is to treat everyone with respect and that goes for transgendered people. So if a transgendered man wants to be recognized as a man, out of respect to him that's what we should do unless there is a very good reason not to do that and I have not heard a good reason not to do that.

    Nor does the notion that the word "man" will be meaningless makes much sense to me. A word having multiple definitions does not destroy the word. Usually context will indicate which version to use.

  6. #46
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    So if a transgendered man wants to be recognized as a man, out of respect to him that's what we should do unless there is a very good reason not to do that and I have not heard a good reason not to do that.
    Should I do that out of respect, even if I think she is mentally ill? Wouldn't it also show respect to avoid enabling her in her delusion, and suggest instead that she should seek therapy?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  7. #47
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Should I do that out of respect, even if I think she is mentally ill? Wouldn't it also show respect to avoid enabling her in her delusion, and suggest instead that she should seek therapy?
    Assuming you are sincerely acting in that person‘s best interest, you should first find out if therapy will in fact be helpful before you suggest it.

  8. #48
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Assuming you are sincerely acting in that person‘s best interest, you should first find out if therapy will in fact be helpful before you suggest it.
    So if conservatives sincerely believe that denying "trans" identity claims are in the best interest of those claiming them, and the best interest of society as a whole, there is nothing wrong with essentially saying "NO, you are not a man. Get some help."
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  9. #49
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    So if conservatives sincerely believe that denying "trans" identity claims are in the best interest of those claiming them, and the best interest of society as a whole, there is nothing wrong with essentially saying "NO, you are not a man. Get some help."
    Not if they are wrong about their actions being for the benefit of trans people. A wrong action being made with good intentions is still a wrong action.

  10. #50
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Not if they are wrong about their actions being for the benefit of trans people. A wrong action being made with good intentions is still a wrong action.
    But there is nothing wrong in the motivation. Denying transgender identification is not, in itself, hateful.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  11. #51
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    But there is nothing wrong in the motivation. Denying transgender identification is not inherently hateful.
    I didn’t say otherwise.

  12. #52
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Okay, fine.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  13. #53
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    But I will say that it’s morally questionable to say something that will upset another person unless you are very sure that what you are saying will indeed benefit them. So one should be fairly certain that saying such things are of benefit before they are morally justified in saying then. So one should not verbally counter one’s gender identity unless they can support, at least to themselves, that such and action will be of benefit to that person. If one is being willfully ignorant, then such action is not really justified.

  14. #54
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    [INDENT]
    Boys can have periods too, children to be taught in latest victory for transgender campaigners

    School children will be taught that "all genders" can have periods in new sex education lessons, in a victory for transgender rights campaigners.

    I'm trying a different tack here and am curious how it will be received?

    I have a gender. I can not menstruate. Therefore NOT all genders can menstruate.

  15. #55
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    I'm trying a different tack here and am curious how it will be received?

    I have a gender. I can not menstruate. Therefore NOT all genders can menstruate.
    So you seem to arguing that just because one person (you used only yourself as an example) of a certain gender cannot menstruate, the gender itself cannot menstruate. That does not logically follow.

    Obviously what "both genders can menstruate" means is that within each gender, there are individuals who can menstruate which is an accurate statement given the premise that gender is based on identity.

  16. #56
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    So you seem to arguing that just because one person (you used only yourself as an example) of a certain gender cannot menstruate, the gender itself cannot menstruate. That does not logically follow.

    Obviously what "both genders can menstruate" means is that within each gender, there are individuals who can menstruate which is an accurate statement given the premise that gender is based on identity.
    You will note it says "all genders" not "both genders" and that would include me would it not?

  17. #57
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    You will note it says "all genders" not "both genders"
    There is no effective difference between "all genders" and "both genders", just like there is no effective difference between "all my feet" and "both of my feet".

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    and that would include me would it not?
    Yes it does. And if you were the only member of your gender, it would be accurate to say that one of the genders cannot menstruate. But since both genders contain some some people who can menstruate, saying that all genders can menstruate is accurate (given the already mentioned premise).

  18. #58
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Why must there be only two genders? Why not many more?

    Some countries recognize non-binary as a third gender: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_...-binary_gender

    Why can't we add "trans male", "trans female", "fox", etc, to give people lots more options for self identification? If it is all about making people comfortable with what they feel about themselves, then why limit the options to just two? That seems unnecessarily restrictive.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  19. #59
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    So help me understand how and why I'm wrong by answering some questions.
    Sure.

    Can you define what "trans men" means, in plain English?
    "Trans men": People who are born as a female but adopt the role of a male in society.

    Let's say that I and my ilk become "woke" and recognize that "trans men" exist and have periods, and "trans identity" people are accepted as normal by everyone, everywhere. Should we all then drop the prefix "trans" and just refer to them as men? Why or why not?
    I'd say that when the distinction is important for understanding you would say "Trans-men" such as in this conversation or when we were discussing sports. When the distinction is irrelevant, say when discussing men or women's clothing or just saying "I met some men the other day" then you would just say "men".

    And honestly, its not that you have to change your mind about what you think it means to be male of female, its just about being respectful to how other people want to live. If you want to be called little foxy, I'll call you little foxy. It doesn't matter to me. I just like being kind to people provided they aren't harming me or antagoinizing me.

    ---------- Post added at 12:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:56 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Why can't we add "trans male", "trans female", "fox", etc, to give people lots more options for self identification? If it is all about making people comfortable with what they feel about themselves, then why limit the options to just two? That seems unnecessarily restrictive.
    Sure, that makes good sense. And indeed, there are lots of different sexual identities, including people that just don't like sex or identify as especially male or female. I mean, don't get upset if I don't know what you like, but if you tell me, I'll try my best to be accommodating when I talk to you. That's just common courtesy.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  20. #60
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Sure, that makes good sense. And indeed, there are lots of different sexual identities, including people that just don't like sex or identify as especially male or female. I mean, don't get upset if I don't know what you like, but if you tell me, I'll try my best to be accommodating when I talk to you. That's just common courtesy.
    Wait, now you're introducing the words "sex" and "sexual", which is further complicating the issue. Do you mean sex and sexual as in sexual activity, gender, or some new definition being created? I thought "gender identity" was simply about feeling like a man or woman, independent of sexual attraction or sexual behavior. Explain.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

 

 
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