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  1. #81
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Actually, I sometimes do use different terms for either kind of marriage. When I say "gay marriage" or "traditional marriage" I am indeed referring to two different things and therefore separating them, just like if I say "gender identity" and "species identity".
    We can agree

    Indeed, "gay marriage" and "traditional marriage" ARE two different things, and if it had been presented that way in the past I doubt there would have been nearly as much controversy!
    (I don't suppose this means we could agree boys and girls are different as well??)

  2. #82
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Indeed, "gay marriage" and "traditional marriage" ARE two different things, and if it had been presented that way in the past I doubt there would have been nearly as much controversy!
    It was presented that way in the past. The legal controversy was whether gay marriage should be legalized and in the past people generally thought it shouldn't be. Fortunately, most people have changed their minds about that.

    And while the two kinds of marriages are different, they both fall under the term "marriage" so in that respect they are the same.



    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    (I don't suppose this means we could agree boys and girls are different as well??)
    I never argued that boys and girls are not different.

    But I do forward that "sex" and "gender" are indeed different and a transgendered person generally has a gender that is different than his/her sex. Which one wants to use when calling one a "boy" or a "girl" is an individual choice but I don't see much reason to not be polite enough to a transgendered person to acknowledge them by their gender identity regardless of what their birth sex is.

    I know at least two transgendered males and I respect them enough to call them "he" and use the "male" names that they now go by when talking to them or about them. And I have yet to hear a good reason why I should do otherwise.

  3. #83
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    I read your long post and thanked you for it. It was a good post and I had no major issues with it, so I didn't reply. And you have a problem with that? Or do you have a problem with the fact that I did reply to the next one? Or do you just have a problem?
    Sorry, I felt like you were just deflecting rather than answering. If you simply appreciated it and chose not to comment, fair enough.

    ---------- Post added at 05:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:58 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by theophilus View Post
    When I was in school I was taught that sex or gender was determined by the x or y chromosomes a person possesses. Someone with two x chromosomes if female; someone with an x and a y chromosome is male. When a baby is born his genital organs show whether it is male or female but they don't determine it. They can be surgically altered so that the person appears to be the opposite of his birth sex but the chromosome cannot.
    Yep, but those arent the only possibilities.
    https://www.thoughtco.com/sex-chromo...alities-373286 (an article listing genetic sex hormone abnormalities
    There are also hermpaphrodites born with some combination of both genetalia.
    And whatever your equipment, you are capable of living your life as if you were another sex if you choose to.

    In short, life is a bit more complicatd than what they teach you in biology 101. You can always learn new things about the richness of the world we live in.

    One thing that is generally overlooked in discussions such as these is God's view. He created us male and female; he established marriage as a union between a man and a woman. The confusion about this subject could be avoided if we started with what he has revealed to us.
    He also then created hermaphrodites, sex gene mutations, gay people, trans=people, and everything else. God made lucifer and the fallen angels, and God made floods and war as well. God makes lots of stuff.

    God never said anything about hermaphrodites or people born a man but who feel they are a woman.

    Tell me Theo, when you die, will you still be male? If so how and why?
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  4. #84
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    While I won't challenge you on whether God exists, I don't think that you speak for God and therefore know God's position on the transgendered.

    I personally think God wants us to treat each other with respect and empathy and therefore wants us to treat transgendered people like that.

    And I can no more prove that my position regarding God's desire is correct than you can prove that your position is correct.

    So unless you can provide evidence for your position, we are in agree to disagree territory.
    God has revealed his will through the Bible. He wants us to treat all people, including the transgendered with love. If we see someone acting contrary to God's will, love requires that we warn them of the consequences of their actions. Those who encourage transgendered and gay people to express their desires that are contrary to God's will may love them and want to help them, but in fact they are their worst enemies.
    The brutal, soul-shaking truth is that we are so earthly minded we are of no heavenly use.
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  5. #85
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by theophilus View Post
    God has revealed his will through the Bible. He wants us to treat all people, including the transgendered with love. If we see someone acting contrary to God's will, love requires that we warn them of the consequences of their actions. Those who encourage transgendered and gay people to express their desires that are contrary to God's will may love them and want to help them, but in fact they are their worst enemies.
    But the thing is religious people disagree on all kinds of issues, including how gay and transgendered people should behave. Some religious people think there's nothing wrong with particular actions and other religious people think that there is something wrong. It would seem that if God made what one should and should not do abundantly clear somehow, everyone would agree. But they don't agree.

    So I get that you are a Christian. But my brother is a Christian as well and has a different view on these matters than you.

    So ultimately you seem to operating on the premise that your understanding of God's will is superior to other Christians who have different views on the matter as well as the premise that the Christian perspective is superior to all alternatives. But I see no reason to think that your view is more accurate than anyone else'. You are not perfect. No one is perfect. So I'm not going to take your word for it that your understanding of God's will is any better than anyone else' and therefore just telling me what you think God thinks is not valid support of anything at all.

  6. #86
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    when you're talking about menstruation, you should be talking about a biological function of reproductive organs, not social inclusion. This kind of forced inclusion, from my point of view, sets the left up to be ruthlessly mocked by setting up a minefield of ridiculous contradictions (Ex: Gender has nothing do with biology, but somehow hormone therapy and sex-reassignment surgery are things). WHY are we talking about social inclusion in biology class? Or, WHY are we talking about biological function in sociology class? The whole thing feels forced and unnecessary.
    This is a very good point. When someone claims that males can have periods, they are saying that "A socially identified male has experiences of a biological female."

    But by not being clear about that, and equivocating, it is both confusing and seemingly forcing an agenda. If the left were clear about that statement, there would undoubtedly be far less resistance. But then, it would not jive with the left's agenda. They use language to their favor to mislead through equivocation quite often. I recently read an excellent article on this which gave several examples. If I find it again, I'll post it. But I do remember at least one: Planned Parenthood. The name itself makes one think that responsible parenting is the primary focus. But it isn't. Instead, it's parenting prevention (via birth control and abortions).

    Anyway, there needs to be a distinction between what it means to be a socially identified gender and a biological gender. Perhaps using new terms so that words are no longer being equivocated. Or perhaps just using XX and XY. One example of a reason to do this is to prevent the abuse we are now seeing in competitive sports, especially fighting sports, where either a biological male is dominating biological females, or a biological female taking testosterone is dominating biological females.

    When we allow socially identified females to compete with biological females, we are saying there is no difference between the two, and that is precisely what the left wants. It's why they are saying that males can have periods. They do not wish to make a distinction in the least.

    I think the question "What is male?" is absolutely the most important question in this thread. You can't move forward with an issue unless all the terms are understood and accepted. IMO, the left does not like to define terms as it does not suit their position. But logically, it is not reasonable or honest.

    So I'll ask it...

    What is 'male'?
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
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  8. #87
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    But by not being clear about that, and equivocating, it is both confusing and seemingly forcing an agenda.
    I thought the language in the article quoted by the OP was pretty specific. It said trans-boys/men can have periods. Trans-male has a very specific meaning.

    But then, it would not jive with the left's agenda. They use language to their favor to mislead through equivocation quite often.
    The language tends to be pretty specific, it's just that ideological opponents often are not interested in truly learning about the language or issues involved. I try to help with that. The same happens on the other side of course.

    I'll post it. But I do remember at least one: Planned Parenthood. The name itself makes one think that responsible parenting is the primary focus. But it isn't. Instead, it's parenting prevention (via birth control and abortions).
    Well if you have a baby when you don't want one, that would be unplanned parenthood. So services that avoid un-planned parenthood are pretty reasonably called planned parenthood. They help you control when you have a child. I don't see any real issue with that. Planned parenthood does help with fertility treatments as well, so if you need help having a child, they can help you with that. And they offer pregnancy assistance too. (prenatal care)

    Anyway, there needs to be a distinction between what it means to be a socially identified gender and a biological gender.
    They use sex to mean biological and gender to mean social. Their focus is on gender mostly. But they have a host of terms for speccific situations like trans - het - cis - non-conformant - etc...

    I give you the LBGT dictionary...
    http://sites.psu.edu/prideclub/lgbt-dictionary/

    What is 'male'?
    A word. it refers to the male sex/gender in living organisms that have binary sex traits or to the sex parts of an organism which produce sperm gametes rather than egg gametes. In human society and in other social animals it also refers to a roll occupied by those of the male sex.

    I think that makes for a fairly well-rounded definition.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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  10. #88
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    I thought the language in the article quoted....
    And yet, I find it interesting that the best post in this thread has gone unchallenged
    (posted below)

    ---------- Post added at 06:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:11 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    While I'm sympathetic to the issues here, I worry that they shoot themselves in the foot with stuff like this. I mean, when you're talking about menstruation, you should be talking about a biological function of reproductive organs, not social inclusion. This kind of forced inclusion, from my point of view, sets the left up to be ruthlessly mocked by setting up a minefield of ridiculous contradictions (Ex: Gender has nothing do with biology, but somehow hormone therapy and sex-reassignment surgery are things). WHY are we talking about social inclusion in biology class? Or, WHY are we talking about biological function in sociology class? The whole thing feels forced and unnecessary.

    Also, one of the issues I have with the left right now is that there don't seem to be any constraining limitations to just how open-minded people should be - Evensaul's comment about species dysphoria isn't something that can be blithely pushed aside (and I'm speaking generally; I don't mean to suggest that Mican was blithe at all). It's a real phenomenon, and one dynamic that the left tends to ignore is IF and WHEN we should try to identify and understand circumstances where people genuinely need help in dealing with how they interact with the world.

    Insofar as we are obliged to treat people with kindness, understanding, fairness, equity and so on, are we not also obliged to at the very least open the door to the discussion as to whether people are engaging the world in a healthy way? In my view, the left keeping the door so tightly closed to discussion about gender-weirdness (I don't know what else to call it) is just as dumb and short-sighted as the right keeping the door closed on discussions about rules around guns.
    Well said sir!

    This renders most of the rest of the commentary in this thread rather mute...

  11. #89
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    And yet, I find it interesting that the best post in this thread has gone unchallenged
    I missed that one unintentionally. So I'll respond now.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    While I'm sympathetic to the issues here, I worry that they shoot themselves in the foot with stuff like this. I mean, when you're talking about menstruation, you should be talking about a biological function of reproductive organs, not social inclusion. This kind of forced inclusion, from my point of view, sets the left up to be ruthlessly mocked by setting up a minefield of ridiculous contradictions (Ex: Gender has nothing do with biology, but somehow hormone therapy and sex-reassignment surgery are things). WHY are we talking about social inclusion in biology class? Or, WHY are we talking about biological function in sociology class? The whole thing feels forced and unnecessary.
    The class in question was neither a biology or sociology class but a sex education class. And considering that transgenderism is indeed a sex issue, it should be taught in sex ed class. In fact, since the school district had chosen to recognize gender based on gender identity and install feminine products in boys bathrooms, it seems like pure common sense to address this in sex education classes.

    And while knowledge of the transgendered does lead to social inclusion of them (which is a good thing IMO), I don't think educating students on transgenderism forces them to include transgendered people (as in individual students can still socially ostracize them if they want).

    I would say it's unforced and completely necessary.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Also, one of the issues I have with the left right now is that there don't seem to be any constraining limitations to just how open-minded people should be - Evensaul's comment about species dysphoria isn't something that can be blithely pushed aside (and I'm speaking generally; I don't mean to suggest that Mican was blithe at all). It's a real phenomenon, and one dynamic that the left tends to ignore is IF and WHEN we should try to identify and understand circumstances where people genuinely need help in dealing with how they interact with the world.
    I don't see the left ignoring that any more than the right is ignoring it.

    It's pretty clear that whichever political side you are on, it is usually a pretty clear when someone needs help. I won't get into specific details but if a person is having issue that really hamper one's ability to interact with the world or just their own life to the extent that it endangers them or others, then they should get help.

    And it is recognized by the left (me, anyway) that transgendered people do have an increased likelihood of having such problems (primarily body dysmorphia) and SOME of them do need treatment. And if an Other Kin likewise has an issue that needs professional treatment, then he should get it as well.

    So it seems that the criteria is already established and generally accepted by both the left and the right. So no, the left is not ignoring this.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Insofar as we are obliged to treat people with kindness, understanding, fairness, equity and so on, are we not also obliged to at the very least open the door to the discussion as to whether people are engaging the world in a healthy way?
    Of course we are. And if you are saying that the left has said that such a discussion should not be had, please support.

    Otherwise, this is not a valid basis for criticism of the left.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    In my view, the left keeping the door so tightly closed to discussion about gender-weirdness (I don't know what else to call it) is just as dumb and short-sighted as the right keeping the door closed on discussions about rules around guns.
    But as far as I can tell, your view is not based on any real evidence. It looks rather subjective to me.


    What's below is addressing the thread in general and not just Dio.

    I've seen numerous posts about "the left" and "the left's agenda" but of course no specifications on who exactly "the left" is. And that's not really an issue in and of itself as we can generally surmise what those who leans left on the issue thinks. But I've seen comments about "the left's" agenda which is certainly not what leftist's in general want. And of course there is no "official spokesman" of the left to set the record straight. So on this thread, I will adopt the mantle of "spokesperson of the left" which I think is fair since I am firmly in favor the policies discussed in the OP and recognizing gender based on gender identity and legally recognizing gender based on gender identity. It seems when those who are critical of "the left" try to state "the left's" agenda, they aren't particularly accurate (just like a leftist statement on "the right's" agenda might indicate that the agenda is to promote white people over all other races which is generally not a view the conservatives hold).


    So as the spokesperson of "the left", I will officially state that "the left's" agenda regarding transgenderism is that transgendered people be treated with the same respect that cisgendered people are treated with which means that just as cisgendered people's gender identity are accepted by society (I, as a cisgendered male, am justifiably societally recognized as a male), transgendered people's gender identity should accepted by society (I know two transgendered males and they likewise should be accepted as "male" by the society). And while we can't force individual people to "correctly" recognized another person's gender identity, we can have our institutions and laws recognize their genders and therefore want that to happen.

    And if someone on this thread wants to say that "the left's" agenda is something else, they should support it with more than their mere say-so or finding some extremist who has a view that is far from center left and therefore is not really speaking for "the left' in general (just like right-wing extremists aren't speaking for the right in general).

    And I do acknowledge that there are some issues where exceptions to "the left's" stated agenda might make sense such as the athletics issue that Apok forwarded. So yes, there can be some areas where exceptions to the agenda might make sense but IN GENERAL, I support the agenda I stated.
    Last edited by mican333; January 7th, 2019 at 07:19 AM.

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  13. #90
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    And yet, I find it interesting that the best post in this thread has gone unchallenged
    (posted below).
    Generally, bad posts get a lot more attention than good posts. Id' respond to Dio (who did make a very good post) but Mican already did an admirable job of it.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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  15. #91
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Generally, bad posts get a lot more attention than good posts. Id' respond to Dio (who did make a very good post) but Mican already did an admirable job of it.
    You did respond to Dio when he made that post. You liked it.

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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Id' respond to Dio (who did make a very good post) but Mican already did an admirable job of it.
    I'd say that Mican's post would play well with people that believe PC is a good and not as well with people that do not think so.

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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    I'd say that Mican's post would play well with people that believe PC is a good and not as well with people that do not think so.
    I'd like to think that it's more than the PC crowd who agree with showing trans people some basic respect and giving them equal rights.

    You don't have to be PC to be for respect and equality.

    In fact, I don't consider myself PC and think certain comedians being barred from college campuses because their jokes might offend someone is ridiculous.

  18. #94
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I'd like to think that it's more than the PC crowd who agree with showing trans people some basic respect and giving them equal rights.

    You don't have to be PC to be for respect and equality.
    I saw nothing in Dio's post nor anything I have written that would deny respect and equal rights.

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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    I saw nothing in Dio's post nor anything I have written that would deny respect and equal rights.
    I didn’t say you did. I was referring to your comment that my post would be popular with the PC crowd. Again. You don’t have to be PC to respect others. So I would say my post is not just for the PC crowd.

  20. #96
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I didn’t say you did. I was referring to your comment that my post would be popular with the PC crowd. Again. You don’t have to be PC to respect others. So I would say my post is not just for the PC crowd.
    If some one were to read both posts, in context, I think your post would be more popular with people that promote PC as a positive thing.

    Everybody gets an opinion, even me.....

    Note, I did not challenge the points you made were necessarily wrong.

  21. #97
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    If some one were to read both posts, in context, I think your post would be more popular with people that promote PC as a positive thing.

    Everybody gets an opinion, even me.....
    But you said my post would not plays as well with those who think PC is not a good thing. And that statement is incorrect as people can both be against PC and still respect trans people.

    In fact, I don't consider myself to be PC.

    I guess I don't see why those who don't like PC would have a problem with my post. It wasn't a PC post (nor an un-PC post).
    Last edited by mican333; January 20th, 2019 at 02:42 PM.

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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But you said my post would not plays as well with those who think PC is not a good thing. And that statement is incorrect as people can both be against PC and still respect trans people.

    In fact, I don't consider myself to be PC.

    I guess I don't see why those who don't like PC would have a problem with my post. It wasn't a PC post (nor an un-PC post).


    Perhaps I'm wrong. I thought I was allowed an opinion on a given subject as in the 1st amendment, but PC stands in the way once again.
    :(



    ---------- Post added at 06:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:29 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    In fact, I don't consider myself to be PC.
    This is precisely why:
    lawyers don't usually represent themselves
    doctors don't usually prescribing/diagnosing themselves

    ---------- Post added at 06:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:32 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But you said my post would not plays as well with those who think PC is not a good thing.
    My comment (in context) was comparing your post, in response to Dio's post, and if people read both in the context of this thread (as apposed to them seeing just the two posts in question).
    It had nothing to do with your post as a stand alone comment.

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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Perhaps I'm wrong. I thought I was allowed an opinion on a given subject as in the 1st amendment, but PC stands in the way once again.
    If you think I in any way infringed on your first amendment rights, you have a serious misunderstanding of the first amendment.

    I just disagreed with what you said. That in no way infringes on your right to say what you said.


    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    This is precisely why:
    lawyers don't usually represent themselves
    doctors don't usually prescribing/diagnosing themselves
    Doctors diagnose themselves all of the time and lawyers often use their own knowledge of the legal profession for themselves.

    I know I disagree with the extremes of PC culture such as colleges disallowing comedians who have controversial viewpoints from performing. So unless I'm fooling myself about what I believe, I'm definitely not PC.


    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    My comment (in context) was comparing your post, in response to Dio's post, and if people read both in the context of this thread (as apposed to them seeing just the two posts in question).
    It had nothing to do with your post as a stand alone comment.
    You said my post would play well with those that think PC is good and not so well with those who disagree. So you were referring to my post. But anyway, you seem to be denying it now so I'll consider that comment to be retracted and ignore the whole thing.

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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    You said my post would play well with those that think PC is good and not so well with those who disagree. So you were referring to my post. But anyway, you seem to be denying it now so I'll consider that comment to be retracted and ignore the whole thing.
    Negative Skippy. I retracted nothing! That I tried to clarify your misunderstanding of my comment doesn't = retraction.

    It was a simple comment/opinion, nothing more, and in context, I stand by it.
    You would argue "depends on what your definition of "is" is.
    .

    ---------- Post added at 07:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:26 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Doctors diagnose themselves all of the time and lawyers often use their own knowledge of the legal profession for themselves.
    I'm not thinking doctors prescribe for themselves and even the Clintons don't try their own cases (and they are incapable of doing wrong ya know).
    You will note:
    I didn't say "lawyers use their own knowledge for themselves", I said "represent themselves" as in a trial/other legally binding scenarios (where else are they representing themselves legally), and most (good) lawyers recommend against it.

    The last word is yours....

 

 
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