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  1. #161
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    I pointed out that being transgender may well be because your brain is "sexed" differently than your body and they truly are, in mind and spirit, a gender other than their body.
    You make this sound like a genetic/physical defect?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    What trans people want most is a means to resolve this conflict satisfactorily for themselves, and for society to make some accommodation for the difficulty they face.
    I doubt many would disagree with the former. The latter I suppose would depend on the "accommodation".

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Complicated and unusual situations are often difficult to resolve.
    If the answer to a question is:
    "A" is "A" and "A" is not" A", at the same time, then the question should probably be questioned....

    ---------- Post added at 04:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:25 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    You are smuggling the premise that gender is a choice. Since I don't agree that it's a choice I can't agree that one makes that choice for any reason.
    "Smuggled" ????
    Read my statement again, there was nothing hidden....

    I am suggesting that some one could use this for reasons other than actually being Trans and to think no one would/will/has abused this is naive.
    (How about I want to start a business and get female minority status for instance?)


    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But then if we are to use this as an analogy for transgenderism, the scenario would be of a person who is cisgendered but lies about it and claims that they are transgendered.
    I think if you read about that case you will find she doesn't think she was lying about it. She did live as/like a black woman.


    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But assuming that she shared some physical characteristics of a black person, then I would say that she has a good case for actually being considered black.
    Interesting.
    Is this like the "one drop" argument I have heard about E Warren? As in "how much does it take" to be considered you are _________?

  2. #162
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    You make this sound like a genetic/physical defect?
    Technically, it's not a defect in the same way that being gay is not a defect.

    Technically, a defect/disease/disorder has to have an inherent negative effect on a person. And while some transgender people do have difficulties due to being transgender, others don't so it's not a defect.


    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    I doubt many would disagree with the former. The latter I suppose would depend on the "accommodation"
    I'm sure we have a pretty good idea of what the accommodations are as they have been proposed. The OP for example, refers to the accommodation of allowing transgender females to use the boys room and to have a bin for them like the one in the girls room.


    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post

    "Smuggled" ????
    Read my statement again, there was nothing hidden....

    I am suggesting that some one could use this for reasons other than actually being Trans and to think no one would/will/has abused this is naive.
    (How about I want to start a business and get female minority status for instance?)
    Since I can't read your mind, I can only respond to what you actually write and you wrote:

    "And I think you are incorrect if you think the only reason one would choose their gender is an altruistic one"

    And again, I reject the premise that one can choose their gender, which is exactly what you wrote. But now you've clarified your statement and you are referring to a cisgendered person pretending to be transgendered for some kind of benefit reserved for the transgendered or the opposite sex.

    And I personally think the concern you raised is nothing to worry about. I doubt that a cisgendered person will ever decide to go through the hassles involved in being viewed as transgender (as one would likely need to pretty much live as a transgendered person to pull off such a scheme which is no small inconvenience) just for whatever benefits one might receive by doing that. And if it ever happens, and again I kind of doubt that it will, I think it will happen so infrequently it's not much of a concern.

    And besides that, even if this scenario is valid, it gives no valid basis to not treat actual transgendered people with personal and legal respect, just like a person pretending to be black for benefits provides no reason to not treat black people with respect or a man pretending to be a woman provides no reason to not treat actual women with respect.

    So even if I were to allow that such a thing has or will happen (and really, I think this scenario needs to leave the hypothetical before it can be taken seriously at all), I don't see the point of bringing it when discussing how to treat actual transgendered people.



    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    I think if you read about that case you will find she doesn't think she was lying about it. She did live as/like a black woman.
    I don't know either way. And I guess I don't care since this does not seem particularly relevant to the debate on transgendered people.



    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Interesting.
    Is this like the "one drop" argument I have heard about E Warren? As in "how much does it take" to be considered you are _________?
    I'd say this is changing the topic. Since I'm not actually interested in debating how race is or should be defined, I'm going to hold off responding to this until I can see how its relevant to the transgender debate.

    That's not to say that such a thing is not worthy of debate and I don't necessarily mind debates moving onto other things if it's still productive debating but I personally don't want to discuss this issue so I'm going to not respond at this time unless I do see some relevance to the transgender debate.

  3. #163
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    You make this sound like a genetic/physical defect?
    Defect is somewhat subjective when it comes to biology, but yes, we are talking about you genetics here. Sex is not just an A or B toggle. Its more like 10,000 switches adn they don't all move together. Then on top of that is another social layer of gender roles and expectations.

    Two questions for you....
    1. If you think it is a defect to have the sex of your mind and your body not match.....
    A. Is it worth correcting?
    B. Which is easier or better to correct, mind or body?

    I doubt many would disagree with the former. The latter I suppose would depend on the "accommodation".
    Indeed. And if the accomidation you ask is not overly burdensome, then it should probably be done out of respect for your fellow human being. If it is burdensome then we have to negotiate a bit to find a good compromise. The problem is that some people just reject the notion out of hand as simply offensive to their idea of what should be.


    If the answer to a question is:
    "A" is "A" and "A" is not" A", at the same time, then the question should probably be questioned...
    Sure, but I'm attempting to show you that is not the question at hand. A Cisgendered Man and a Transgendered Woman are not the same thing.
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  4. #164
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    As I see it, I did not demand any such thing. Advocating people should treat each other with respect is not the same as demanding it.

    And by respect, I mean "not disrespect". I generally don't do anything regarding the numerous strangers I pass on the street which is being respectful of them. And if some stranger asks me something innocuous ("what time is it?"), it's respectful to respond to them without disrespect. And if the person is transgender and I figure they would be prefer to be addressed by their gender identity, I'll do that. And there is nothing wrong with the position that others should do likewise.




    Speak for yourself. I think people's general default mode is to respect other people until they are given a reason to not respect them. I certainly give a modicum of respect to every stranger I pass by and if I feel that someone wants something that's not particularly unreasonable and doesn't cost me anything to give it, I give it. If someone gives me a friendly nod, I give them a return nod. I don't demand that people be respectful to each other as a default but I advocate it.

    And I agree that there isn't a law against being an A-hole nor would I forward that such a law be created but I think that one should not be an A-hole to another person without a good reason.



    I think we generally agree then. It seems as long as someone doesn't give you a reason to disrespect them, your default is to respect them. So I should ask, what if instead of your trans friend, you met a trans stranger, like someone who you encountered in a store or something. The person is clearly a biological male who is of the female gender and refers to herself as female and there is nothing about them that you find worthy of disrespect. I assume if you had to address that person, you would would have the respect to address them as a female instead of a male?






    If forwarding the view that transgendered boys can have periods is an ideological imposition then isn't teaching that only girls can have periods also an ideological imposition?

    You forward one position or the other and I don't see why if one position is an imposition the other one isn't.




    No, in a biological sense they are men. The legal definition can (and should) change if it refuses to recognize transgendered males as "male" for most legal issues. And there is no objective definition of ANY word (since all definitions are subjective) so no one is objectively male or female. I'm not objectively wrong when I call a transgender male a "male". It's my choice whether I address him by his gender identity or his biological sex and neither option is objectively wrong.




    And now we are back to an unconvincing "leftist conspiracy theory" issue. Until you provide some real evidence for these slippery slope conspiracy theories, I'll just say "your opinion is noted".

    Here's what I think is going on.

    The "agenda" is to treat everyone with respect, including transgendered people. So that means that transgender males, some of whom have periods, should be allowed to use the boys bathroom. Since some users of the boys room can have periods, the boys room needs to have menstruation bins like the girls bathroom have. So now the students can clearly see that the boys room has menstruation bins which raises the issue of WHY they are there. So this requires an explanation. Where's a good place to explain why there are menstruation bins in the boys bathroom. How about the sex ed class concerning menstruation? Okay, let's do that.

    So yes, if we go by the "nefarious leftist agenda" of treating trans people with respect, it makes sense to teach about transgenderism during menstruation.
    Not a slippery slope. We both agree that there is no law against being an ahole. More importantly, we both agree that such a law should not exist. Now, we can disagree on whether not calling someone by their preferred pronoun is an ahole act, but forcing someone to use a specific pronoun is an ideological act. That you believe it is the respectful position only serves to highlight your own ideological position on the matter.

    Whether you believe there should be a legal definition of trangendered is not the same as their actually being one. In a classroom, on biological function, I asked why the lesson should deviate from biological fact. Teaching the fact that biological females are the only people who can have menstruation isn't ideological at all. It is the biological fact. I never said that we should mention transgendered people at all. There is no need. If a transgendered person does not know their biological sex, that seems more problematic than "misgendering" them. In a biology classroom, it would seem such a gap in their own knowledge would be best served by being direct and factually correct. One may even claim it would be the most respectful thing to do.

    In answer to your question as to what I'd do if I met an obvious man portraying a female in public... Let's be honest, how often do you require gender pronouns when talking to that person directly? I mean, generally, the most common pronoun is 'you' and 'I' not 'he' or 'she' or 'him' or 'her'. If I was pointing that person out to friends, I'd use whatever pronoun that I think would work. If the person looked like a man, I'd probably address that person as him even if that person was wearing a dress. Again, in that case, I am using pronouns to communicate. I am pragmatic. I use what works. That's kinda what language is for. Isn't it? Like if there was someone likely transgendered but that looked mostly female, and I was pointing her out to friends, as an example, I'd probably use she or her.
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  5. #165
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Two questions for you....
    1. If you think it is a defect to have the sex of your mind and your body not match.....
    A. Is it worth correcting?
    B. Which is easier or better to correct, mind or body?
    1. I have not forwarded that it is a defect.
    A. IDK. Probably better on a case by case basis as I'm sure all the pertinent issues vary greatly by person.
    B. IDK. Probably also varies a great deal.




    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Sure, but I'm attempting to show you that is not the question at hand.
    Um ok, but it was what the link I posted was all about. That person was now legally a male and a female at the same time!
    You just as well not use any terms of gender, because they now mean very little...

    If there are "10,000 switches" then there really aren't any genders at all anyway. A given person is just somewhere on a spectrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    A Cisgendered Man and a Transgendered Woman are not the same thing.
    Perhaps.

  6. #166
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Not a slippery slope. We both agree that there is no law against being an ahole. More importantly, we both agree that such a law should not exist. Now, we can disagree on whether not calling someone by their preferred pronoun is an ahole act, but forcing someone to use a specific pronoun is an ideological act. That you believe it is the respectful position only serves to highlight your own ideological position on the matter.
    But then I don't advocate forcing anyone to use a specific pronoun.

    I think people should be respectful of others but I respect one's right to be an Ahole if they choose to be one.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Whether you believe there should be a legal definition of trangendered is not the same as their actually being one. In a classroom, on biological function, I asked why the lesson should deviate from biological fact.
    No one, as far as I know, is advocating lessons deviate from biological fact.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Teaching the fact that biological females are the only people who can have menstruation isn't ideological at all.
    And no one is advocating that this not be taught.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    I never said that we should mention transgendered people at all. There is no need.
    Because you say so? I will leave it up to the school board to decide what curriculum is "needed" in a sex ed class.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    If a transgendered person does not know their biological sex, that seems more problematic than "misgendering" them. In a biology classroom, it would seem such a gap in their own knowledge would be best served by being direct and factually correct. One may even claim it would be the most respectful thing to do.
    Transgendered people know their birth sex and therefore don't need to be reminded of what it is.

    And since a portion of the population is transgendered just like a portion of the population is gay, these are things that should be taught about in school. These are sex-related facts and therefore things worth teaching. And it's likewise a fact that some people have genders that are different than their birth sex. So again, I don't see any proposed curriculum that is factually incorrect nor something that should not be taught in sex ed.





    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    In answer to your question as to what I'd do if I met an obvious man portraying a female in public... Let's be honest, how often do you require gender pronouns when talking to that person directly? I mean, generally, the most common pronoun is 'you' and 'I' not 'he' or 'she' or 'him' or 'her'. If I was pointing that person out to friends, I'd use whatever pronoun that I think would work. If the person looked like a man, I'd probably address that person as him even if that person was wearing a dress. Again, in that case, I am using pronouns to communicate. I am pragmatic. I use what works. That's kinda what language is for. Isn't it? Like if there was someone likely transgendered but that looked mostly female, and I was pointing her out to friends, as an example, I'd probably use she or her.
    But if you are aware that the person has adopted a particular gender and wanted to be referred to by that gender's pronoun, wouldn't you do that?

    I know a transgender male and I know this person identifies as a male so I do my best to always refer to him by the male pronoun and by his new name (I've known him since he was a little girl so sometimes it's a bit tricky for me but fortunately he looks and acts like a man). I assume that there is no disagreement that I, or anyone in a position similar to mine, should always refer to this person by the male pronoun? And likewise everyone else should do the same (which is different than saying that they should be forced to do it)?

  7. #167
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But then I don't advocate forcing anyone to use a specific pronoun.

    I think people should be respectful of others but I respect one's right to be an Ahole if they choose to be one.




    No one, as far as I know, is advocating lessons deviate from biological fact.




    And no one is advocating that this not be taught.




    Because you say so? I will leave it up to the school board to decide what curriculum is "needed" in a sex ed class.




    Transgendered people know their birth sex and therefore don't need to be reminded of what it is.

    And since a portion of the population is transgendered just like a portion of the population is gay, these are things that should be taught about in school. These are sex-related facts and therefore things worth teaching. And it's likewise a fact that some people have genders that are different than their birth sex. So again, I don't see any proposed curriculum that is factually incorrect nor something that should not be taught in sex ed.







    But if you are aware that the person has adopted a particular gender and wanted to be referred to by that gender's pronoun, wouldn't you do that?

    I know a transgender male and I know this person identifies as a male so I do my best to always refer to him by the male pronoun and by his new name (I've known him since he was a little girl so sometimes it's a bit tricky for me but fortunately he looks and acts like a man). I assume that there is no disagreement that I, or anyone in a position similar to mine, should always refer to this person by the male pronoun? And likewise everyone else should do the same (which is different than saying that they should be forced to do it)?
    The facts as I understand them are that in a biology class discussing menstruation, the students are being taught that both males and females can menstruate. Seeing as this is a class, I can infer that this information is testable, the students may be required to demonstrate their understanding of males, females and menstruation within the context that it was taught. So, the students are being required to accept an ideological viewpoint on gender which they may or may not agree. The objective truth is that only the female sex has a menstruation cycle. That would be the only information pertinent to understanding the information. As you noted, and I do not disagree, there is no reason trans kids would or could be confused to this as it relates to their own biological sex. On the other hand, teaching that all students, male or female, could menstruate and then the required follow-up discussion on gender which isn't scientific nor based on a legal standard is ideological and, dare I say, confusing.

    I am not claiming the school must teach one thing or another. We are discussing what the school should do. So, the implication that I wouldn't leave it to the school board to decide is a canard.
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  8. #168
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But if you are aware that the person has adopted a particular gender and wanted to be referred to by that gender's pronoun, wouldn't you do that?
    This is really outside the scope of the OP, but it is, I think, a fun side-conversation so I'll engage. The answer is maybe. Again, I'd use the pronoun that makes the most sense. I cannot think of many occasions where use of pronouns is done directly to the person. Usually, it is done to communicate something about that person to someone else. "Hey, look at her." is an example. Now, if the tg person in question looked like a girl, I'd probably say her. If the person looked like a boy, I'd probably say, him. If I knew the person I was talking to understood that person to be a girl, I'd probably use her regardless of how that person appeared. I use language to communicate. If I think using a pronoun is going to confuse, I won't use. For instance, if someone told me they like to be referred to as them instead of him or her, I'd probably not do it. I mean, it adds confusion. If I said, "Look at them," when I meant "Look at that person," it adds confusion since them refers to more than one person. In general, I don't think use of pronouns is about respect at all. It is about communication. I also think it is used to force people to accept an ideological position which I certainly would refuse to adhere to. I mean, if a person asked me to use a pronoun and I felt they were simply trying to make an ideological point, I'd flat out refuse. If a person asked me, with what I believed was sincerity, I'd probably try my best to accommodate them. However, I still go back to my main rule of pronouns, they are about communication. Don't ask me to use made-up words or to misuse words (such as the use of them I discussed earlier) to accommodate your needs as I probably wouldn't do that under any circumstances.
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  10. #169
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Um ok, but it was what the link I posted was all about. That person was now legally a male and a female at the same time!
    You just as well not use any terms of gender, because they now mean very little...

    If there are "10,000 switches" then there really aren't any genders at all anyway. A given person is just somewhere on a spectrum.
    I think this is the direction of the truth. Male and Female are social ideals and they are a collection of biological traits. One is social, the other is biological. Neither is simple or absolute. We humans do find it useful to classify things. But, we have to understand that classifications don't always work. Instead of insisting things conform to our classifications, we should be flexible in our classifications or be willing not to apply them when they cause problems.
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    I think this is the direction of the truth. Male and Female are social ideals and they are a collection of biological traits. One is social, the other is biological. Neither is simple or absolute. We humans do find it useful to classify things. But, we have to understand that classifications don't always work. Instead of insisting things conform to our classifications, we should be flexible in our classifications or be willing not to apply them when they cause problems.
    I'm not so sure they are generally speaking. Look back at your definition of Trans (to MT I believe it was).
    I'm also not sure this any of this applies to the thread or any of my points anyway sooooo:

    Do you support separate bathrooms for men/boys and women/girls in school/public restrooms?



    I'm also curious. you said:
    "B. Which is easier or better to correct, mind or body?"

    1. If being Trans is partly due to a genetic defect (per you), how is calling some one something they are not helping to "correct their mind"?
    2. Should schools teach being Trans is partly due to genetic defects?
    3. Since being Trans is very small % of the population, and as Mican says, many Trans pass for their gender "of choice" so few people know. We seem to be talking about a very small group of people here and I don't think I have heard anyone advocating calling people a pronoun other than what they appear to be to purposefully offend them.
    3a. After all, my hair used to be longer than many women by far. If I had chosen to wear a kilt/skirt dress that does not in any way mean I wanted to be referred to as a girl/woman!!!


    Perhaps we could get back to the thread now?
    "Should schools teach that "boys can have periods"?
    I would say no because this is just confusing language. If they said "Trans boys" will be allowed to use the "boys" restroom so female products will be available there, that would at least make some sense.

    If schools are going to allow Trans Boys in the Boys restroom, then they probably should acknowledge it, and announce Girls products are going to be in the Boys restroom.
    Teaching every other mammal has basically two sexes but humans somehow are different (kinda like when the religious say humans are different than all other animals - humans just think they are quite special indeed) is also confusing language. When I say "basically" that does not mean that you should not also teach in biology there are exceptions to the general norms.
    Last edited by Belthazor; October 5th, 2019 at 05:35 PM.

  12. #171
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    I'm not so sure they are generally speaking. Look back at your definition of Trans (to MT I believe it was).
    I'm also not sure this any of this applies to the thread or any of my points anyway sooooo:

    Do you support separate bathrooms for men/boys and women/girls in school/public restrooms?
    It seems reasonable, though personally I wouldn't have any problem with mixed-gender bathrooms so long as there is a means to poop in relative privacy.

    I'm also curious. you said:
    "B. Which is easier or better to correct, mind or body?"

    1. If being Trans is partly due to a genetic defect (per you), how is calling someone something they are not helping to "correct their mind"?
    You suggested it is a defect, not I. I asked you to follow up on that verbiage. I only stated that studies have pointed to the minds of people who are transgender matching their chosen gender rather than their birth sex. You suggested this could represent a defect.

    That said, I really don't understand this question. Can you rephrase it?

    2. Should schools teach being Trans is partly due to genetic defects?
    No, I don't think that would be appropriate. If it is a sociology or biology class they should study the current scientific literature on the subject and discuss it. Making a judgment like a Defect would be presumptuous and impolite.

    3. Since being Trans is very small % of the population, and as Mican says, many Trans pass for their gender "of choice" so few people know. We seem to be talking about a very small group of people here and I don't think I have heard anyone advocating calling people a pronoun other than what they appear to be to purposefully offend them.
    Not sure how this follows but yes, this is a small number of people. However, I have heard of people who purposefully do not use chosen gender pronouns because they want to defy people's wishes.

    3a. After all, my hair used to be longer than many women by far. If I had chosen to wear a kilt/skirt dress that does not in any way mean I wanted to be referred to as a girl/woman!!!
    I'm not sure what this is getting at.

    Perhaps we could get back to the thread now?
    "Should schools teach that "boys can have periods"?
    If they are transgendered boys, sure. I don't think it is critical to teach this, but if it comes up, sure.

    I would say no because this is just confusing language. If they said "Trans boys" will be allowed to use the "boys" restroom so female products will be available there, that would at least make some sense.
    Well lets look at the quoted artcie...

    -The new advice follows a council report which said: "Trans boys and men and non-binary people may have periods"

    Yep, well that's pretty much accurate. What is the problem you have exactly?

    If schools are going to allow Trans Boys in the Boys restroom, then they probably should acknowledge it, and announce Girls products are going to be in the Boys restroom.
    I'm pretty sure that's exacctly what is happening.

    Teaching every other mammal has basically two sexes but humans somehow are different (kinda like when the religious say humans are different than all other animals - humans just think they are quite special indeed) is also confusing language. When I say "basically" that does not mean that you should not also teach in biology there are exceptions to the general norms.
    I'm not so sure anyone is suggesting that. Transgender people are part of reality so they should be part of education. That seems straight forward to me. Why do you disagree?
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    The facts as I understand them are that in a biology class discussing menstruation, the students are being taught that both males and females can menstruate. Seeing as this is a class, I can infer that this information is testable, the students may be required to demonstrate their understanding of males, females and menstruation within the context that it was taught. So, the students are being required to accept an ideological viewpoint on gender which they may or may not agree.
    I would say that it's a pretty big assumption on your part that they are being graded on whether they agree that, for example, transgender males are indeed "males" and therefore are being "required" to accept it. If you can show me that they are indeed being tested and graded on whether they accept this, then I will consider it something to be discussed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    The objective truth is that only the female sex has a menstruation cycle. That would be the only information pertinent to understanding the information.
    I'm pretty sure they are being taught that only biological females menstruate. And transgender males are biological females and therefore can have periods. Unless they aren't going to teach about transgenderism at all, that piece of information about transgendered males is very pertinent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    As you noted, and I do not disagree, there is no reason trans kids would or could be confused to this as it relates to their own biological sex. On the other hand, teaching that all students, male or female, could menstruate and then the required follow-up discussion on gender which isn't scientific nor based on a legal standard is ideological and, dare I say, confusing.
    Since I don't consider the issue confusing, I don't accept the argument that it is too confusing to be taught in school. The FACT is transgendered people exist and therefore is a sex-related issue and therefore worth teaching in school. There might a particular age where the student isn't ready to study the issue but I don't accept that it's too confusing for, say, a 13-year old to understand.

    And I don't see how what you propose is any less "ideological" than what the school is proposing to do.

    I will assume that what you want is what is best for all schoolchildren and society in general. And therefore your "ideological" basis for arguing as you do is that you sincerely think that what you are proposing is "for the best". And likewise I would forward that that is also the "ideological" basis for the school's policy (and mine) is the same - they want what's best for the schoolchildren and society in general. And the disagreement is which policy will best achieve the "ideological" goal of "for the best". Going by that, I would have to agree that the school's basis is ideological but so what? That is a valid ideological basis for pretty much any policy.

    Now, if you want to forward that their ideological basis is something nefarious or ignoble, you will need to support that.
    Last edited by mican333; October 7th, 2019 at 01:17 PM.

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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    It seems reasonable, though personally I wouldn't have any problem with mixed-gender bathrooms so long as there is a means to poop in relative privacy.
    Fair enough, I'm guessing you are in the slim minority on this though. I may be totally off here, but I am guessing most parents don't want their young daughter in the same restroom as adult males (for instance). Or how could women go to the bathroom in groups to talk about their dates if men were also present?


    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    You suggested it is a defect, not I. I asked you to follow up on that verbiage.
    If the brain sex and body sex don't match (per you) then there is definitely a disconnect/defect/malfunction/your term of choice to show there is a physical component to being Trans. Since it would be beneficial for the mind and body to match there is a physical (since per you, it is not just the mind involved in being Trans) defect/malfunction/whatever...


    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    No, I don't think that would be appropriate. If it is a sociology or biology class they should study the current scientific literature on the subject and discuss it. Making a judgment like a Defect would be presumptuous and impolite.
    Clearly there is a disconnect, if it was true that it was due to a genetic/physical failing how is that making a judgement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    I'm not sure what this is getting at.
    It may not always be easy to know how some one wants to be referred to. I saw a woman about 30yrs old, rail on a clerk for a couple minutes at a store because he said "how can I help you ma'am?" as she walked up to the counter.
    She wasn't "old enough" to be called "ma'am" was her point. My point is:
    people need to lighten the hell up and not look for ways/"reasons" to be offended



    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    If they are transgendered boys, sure. I don't think it is critical to teach this, but if it comes up, sure.
    AGREED!


    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Well lets look at the quoted artcie...
    ...
    Yep, well that's pretty much accurate. What is the problem you have exactly?
    Indeed, let us actually look at it this time. Perhaps you may have missed the headline:

    "Boys can have periods too, children to be taught in latest victory for transgender campaigners "

    Now just as I noted above, the issue I see is when the Trans part of Trans-boys is left out. I don't think anyone has argued a Trans-boy can not have a period.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    I'm not so sure anyone is suggesting that. Transgender people are part of reality so they should be part of education. That seems straight forward to me. Why do you disagree?

    I believe I said "you should not also teach in biology there are exceptions to the general norms." so I don't get your point.
    It is typical/normal/desired state of affairs/whatever that your mind and body match regarding your sex. There is a slim population that they don't "seem to match".

    Having said that, I still don't see how some one of one sex can say they know what it is like to be the other sex?
    Last edited by Belthazor; October 7th, 2019 at 05:26 PM.

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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    If the brain sex and body sex don't match (per you) then there is definitely a disconnect/defect/malfunction/your term of choice to show there is a physical component to being Trans.
    For term, how about "difference"? It has no negative connotations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Since it would be beneficial for the mind and body to match there is a physical (since per you, it is not just the mind involved in being Trans) defect/malfunction/whatever...
    Beneficial in what way?

    As an example, I do have a trans male friend (son of a good friend) who is doing just fine. He is happily married and studying to be a nurse and apparently is doing well in his career so far. He doesn't have any identifiable mental or physical disorders. Since there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with this person who's mind and body don't "match", I don't see how it would be clinically beneficial if they did "match".

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Clearly there is a disconnect, if it was true that it was due to a genetic/physical failing how is that making a judgement?
    I think the issue is that you are assuming that it's an accepted premise that transgenderism is some kind of birth defect or disorder and
    therefore you hold that you are just "calling it like it is" when you say that it's a "genetic failing".

    But I don't agree with that premise, I'm pretty sure Sig doesn't agree either, nor is it, I believe, the position of the medical/psychiatric community.

    So when you forward that transgenderism is a disorder of some kind, that is indeed a judgement on your part. It's not an observable objective fact.


    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Now just as I noted above, the issue I see is when the Trans part of Trans-boys is left out. I don't think anyone has argued a Trans-boy can not have a period.
    But unless we are going to add "trans" in front of "boy" every time we are addressing a transgendered boy, we are going to eventually be calling them just "boys". So there is nothing wrong with lumping "transgendered boys" and "cisgendered boys" into the general category of "boys". And since some of these "boys" can have periods, it's not inaccurate to say that some boys can have periods.[COLOR="Silver"]
    Last edited by mican333; October 8th, 2019 at 09:02 AM.

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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I would say that it's a pretty big assumption on your part that they are being graded on whether they agree that, for example, transgender males are indeed "males" and therefore are being "required" to accept it. If you can show me that they are indeed being tested and graded on whether they accept this, then I will consider it something to be discussed.
    It is a big assumption that students are graded on tests which are based on the things the teacher is asking them to learn??? I think this is the default position. If you have evidence to the contrary, please share.


    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I'm pretty sure they are being taught that only biological females menstruate. And transgender males are biological females and therefore can have periods. Unless they aren't going to teach about transgenderism at all, that piece of information about transgendered males is very pertinent.
    The lesson is about, to my understanding menstruation. I have yet to hear you explain the proper context that being transgender plays in this discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Since I don't consider the issue confusing, I don't accept the argument that it is too confusing to be taught in school. The FACT is transgendered people exist and therefore is a sex-related issue and therefore worth teaching in school. There might a particular age where the student isn't ready to study the issue but I don't accept that it's too confusing for, say, a 13-year old to understand.
    What does being transgender have to do with menstruation? The lesson supposedly teaches that boys and girls can menstruate which is just bizarre and, yes, confusing. And, we both agreed, it is not necessary since you acknowledged tg people are fully aware of their biology. It is superfluous and, by extension, just an ideological position being brought to the classroom.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And I don't see how what you propose is any less "ideological" than what the school is proposing to do.
    I am not asking the teacher to express a position on gender at all. Kids could be fully educated on menstruation without what amounts to the teacher's opinion on gender. I am not asking the teacher to deny that gender and biology differ nor teach that they are the same. I am simply thinking that the education shouldn't include either. Period (no pun intended).

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I will assume that what you want is what is best for all schoolchildren and society in general. And therefore your "ideological" basis for arguing as you do is that you sincerely think that what you are proposing is "for the best". And likewise I would forward that that is also the "ideological" basis for the school's policy (and mine) is the same - they want what's best for the schoolchildren and society in general. And the disagreement is which policy will best achieve the "ideological" goal of "for the best". Going by that, I would have to agree that the school's basis is ideological but so what? That is a valid ideological basis for pretty much any policy.

    Now, if you want to forward that their ideological basis is something nefarious or ignoble, you will need to support that.
    It would also be my "ideological" position that it is for the best if an algebra teacher does not make the lesson about the Civil War. We have subjects for a reason. Teachers are paid and certified to teach their specific subject. Where the teacher decides to teach lessons outside their given subject expertise, we should generally find this unprofessional. If we wish to not impose such guidelines, then I wonder why we certify teachers to teach specific subjects at all.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    For term, how about "difference"? It has no negative connotations.
    Ok, (per you and Sig) there is a physical "difference" that is contributing to a Trans persons "mind and body not agreeing on what their sex is".
    So when this "difference" is not present, a given person is more likely to have their "mind and body match their sex".

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Beneficial in what way?
    Seriously? You need reasons why your mind and your body matching regarding your sex would be a desirable thing?

    a. "who knows what dwells in the hearts of other men?", so I don't think you can speak for your friend in this way.
    b. You don't think your friend would have had a happier/easier life if they matched?
    c. how about you, Mican, "female mind trapped in a male body" but are still heterosexual. IOW, you would want to date men in that case. You would find that a challenging prospect finding a heterosexual male that is going to go for the "Female mind in the male body" is no issue.
    d. You (and Sig) have not given any reasoning as to how someone born male could have any possible idea what it would be like to be female. IOW, where does this "female mind" come from? A soul? Past lives?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I think the issue is that you are assuming that it's an accepted premise that transgenderism is some kind of birth defect or disorder and
    therefore you hold that you are just "calling it like it is" when you say that it's a "genetic failing".
    Look back, Sig brought up a possible physical component to being Trans, I am exploring that line of thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But unless we are going to add "trans" in front of "boy" every time we are addressing a transgendered boy,....
    You mean speak in clear understandable terms? Ya, sounds like a great idea

    Aside:
    Sig is for unisex bathrooms in schools and other public places. Do you support this as well?

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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    If the brain sex and body sex don't match (per you) then there is definitely a disconnect/defect/malfunction/your term of choice to show there is a physical component to being Trans. Since it would be beneficial for the mind and body to match there is a physical (since per you, it is not just the mind involved in being Trans) defect/malfunction/whatever...
    Ya, the language is tough to try and express it without maligning anyone. Abnormal might be the most exacting term. Clearly, even for them, this state of affairs represents a problem. How much of a problem varies from person to person.

    Clearly there is a disconnect if it was true that it was due to a genetic/physical failing how is that making a judgment?
    Well, defect means broken. Not working correctly. Trans people are not exactly broken. They function. They have some challenges. This is not like a disease you need to cure. It may be a problem but defective carries a lot of negative conotations that are not very helpful to a person's self-image and self-worth. Basically, calling someone defective is pretty harsh.

    It may not always be easy to know how someone wants to be referred to. I saw a woman about 30yrs old, rail on a clerk for a couple minutes at a store because he said "how can I help you ma'am?" as she walked up to the counter.
    She wasn't "old enough" to be called "ma'am" was her point. My point is:
    people need to lighten the hell up and not look for ways/"reasons" to be offended
    Well, most reasonable people don't expect someone else to know what to call them unless you tell them or they are asked. If you tell them and they refuse to do what you ask, then you can get upset. If they just don't know, then that is not a reasonable reason to get upset. What most trans people don't like is when they tell someone, please call me her, and the person says "No, you are a man and that's what I will call you."

    Mind you, some folks are unreasonable, and demand we all can read their mind about what they want to be called, that's not well, reasonable.

    Indeed, let us actually look at it this time. Perhaps you may have missed the headline:
    Ah, ya, headlines are often idiotic. Here's the deal you may not know. Often, headlines are not written by the person that writes the article. There are people at magazines and such paid just to write headlines. They are essentially marketing writers. They make the headline so that it gets as many clicks/reads as humanly possible without completely lying their ass off. But sometimes they do ly their ass off. It's not like that everywhere, but it is a really common and complete ******** IMO. It's one of my big gripes about the news business. In this case, they chose the most provocative version of the idea possible so you would get nice and worked up and read the thing and share it with others. Who cares what the article actually says or what the school policy really is, that headline gets your blood boiling so its doing its job selling advertisements.

    Word to the wise, mostly ignore headlines and read the actual article. Articles are written by journalists, headlines are often written by advertising copywriters.

    I believe I said "you should not also teach in biology there are exceptions to the general norms." so I don't get your point.
    It is typical/normal/desired state of affairs/whatever that your mind and body match regarding your sex. There is a slim population that they don't "seem to match".
    So then we can teach about transgender people then.

    Having said that, I still don't see how someone of one sex can say they know what it is like to be the other sex?
    No one can truly say what it is like to be anyone else. But, we all have some insight into one another through shared experience and empathy.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  19. #178
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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    It is a big assumption that students are graded on tests which are based on the things the teacher is asking them to learn??? I think this is the default position. If you have evidence to the contrary, please share.
    It is not the default position that every single thing that a teacher says during the class is on the test. Some information presented is on the test and the rest isn't on the test. I think that particular piece of information would be so basic that it isn't worth putting on the test. Maybe I'm right about that and maybe I'm wrong.

    But it's your argument that it will be put on the test so the burden is yours to support that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    The lesson is about, to my understanding menstruation. I have yet to hear you explain the proper context that being transgender plays in this discussion.
    But then the burden on that issue is also yours. You are the one arguing that they way they are presenting the information is improper.

    But how about this:

    Lesson 1. Menstruation - Just the biological facts about the female reproductive system with no mention of transgenderism
    Lesson 2. Transgenderism - Teaches all of the pertinent information about transgenderism and mentions that transgendered boys are biologically girls and therefore menstruate.

    So it's quite easy to both teach the strict biological facts without introducing transgenderism and still teach about transgenderism at a later time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    What does being transgender have to do with menstruation? The lesson supposedly teaches that boys and girls can menstruate which is just bizarre and, yes, confusing. And, we both agreed, it is not necessary since you acknowledged tg people are fully aware of their biology. It is superfluous and, by extension, just an ideological position being brought to the classroom.
    No, it's a FACT.

    It's a FACT that transgendered males are biologically female. It's also a FACT that transgendered males can have periods. I don't find the issue confusing at all nor do I think it will confuse school children.

    The only ideological issue is whether we SHOULD consider transgendered males to be "boys" instead of "girls" and EITHER position, "yes" or "no" or "don't discuss it", is an ideological position. And going by the ideology of "the default position is to treat people with respect", we should consider them "boys". But then arguing that they should be considered "girls" or the issue just should not be brought up is also ideological. So there is no getting around ideology here and therefore criticizing what they are doing as "ideological" is responded with "so what?".

    So okay, ideology is inevitably involved in the issue and therefore the position they took as an ideological basis (the ideology of respect). But so what?



    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    I am not asking the teacher to express a position on gender at all. Kids could be fully educated on menstruation without what amounts to the teacher's opinion on gender. I am not asking the teacher to deny that gender and biology differ nor teach that they are the same. I am simply thinking that the education shouldn't include either. Period (no pun intended).
    Your ideological viewpoint on the issue is noted.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    It would also be my "ideological" position that it is for the best if an algebra teacher does not make the lesson about the Civil War. We have subjects for a reason. Teachers are paid and certified to teach their specific subject. Where the teacher decides to teach lessons outside their given subject expertise, we should generally find this unprofessional. If we wish to not impose such guidelines, then I wonder why we certify teachers to teach specific subjects at all.
    But I can't think of any better place to teach about transgenderism than in a sex ed class. Where are you suggesting students learn about it instead? Or are you saying that it should not be taught at all?

    If so, that is very much an ideological viewpoint and one that I disagree with.

    ---------- Post added at 03:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:04 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Ok, (per you and Sig) there is a physical "difference" that is contributing to a Trans persons "mind and body not agreeing on what their sex is".
    So when this "difference" is not present, a given person is more likely to have their "mind and body match their sex".
    Sure. I'm just saying that you should not give it a term with a negative connotation until you've supported that it's actually wrong somehow.



    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Seriously? You need reasons why your mind and your body matching regarding your sex would be a desirable thing?
    Yes, please. If you are going to support that being cisgendered is inherently superior to being transgendered, you will need to support that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    a. "who knows what dwells in the hearts of other men?", so I don't think you can speak for your friend in this way.
    But I can note that he appears to be doing fine and therefore your argument that he would be better off if he were cisgendered does not seem to be backed up by what I observe.


    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    b. You don't think your friend would have had a happier/easier life if they matched?
    I don't know. Do you? Again, it's YOUR argument we are addressing so if you are going to say that my friend would be better off if he "matched", let's see your support.



    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    c. how about you, Mican, "female mind trapped in a male body" but are still heterosexual. IOW, you would want to date men in that case. You would find that a challenging prospect finding a heterosexual male that is going to go for the "Female mind in the male body" is no issue.
    But that would not be reflective of any inherent problem in myself. Gay men have a harder time finding partners than straight men since most other males don't want to date men. That doesn't mean that homosexuality is a defect.


    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    d. You (and Sig) have not given any reasoning as to how someone born male could have any possible idea what it would be like to be female. IOW, where does this "female mind" come from? A soul? Past lives?
    I don't see the relevance of this to what I'm asking you to support. But I would imagine that whatever it is in my brain that makes me "feel like a man" is also in my transgender males friend's brain as well.

    So at this point I haven't seen a valid explanation of why "matching" is beneficial.



    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Look back, Sig brought up a possible physical component to being Trans, I am exploring that line of thought.
    I think there is a physical component to being trans, just like there's a physical component in being gay or left-handed. What I'm saying is that I don't agree that any of those qualify as a disorder or birth defect or whatever and therefore it's not an accepted premise that they are.


    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    You mean speak in clear understandable terms? Ya, sounds like a great idea
    So from now on, will you be adding "cisgender" in front of "boy" or "girl" when referring to them? Are you going to say "This is my son" or say "this is my cisgendered son". After all, you do want to speak in clear understandable terms, right?

    Of course not. You would only mention that your children are cisgendered if that issue became pertinent to the discussion. Otherwise, you would just say "son". And it's the same thing with transgendered people. You just say "boy" or "girl" unless it's important to make it clear that they are transgendered in that particular conversation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Sig is for unisex bathrooms in schools and other public places. Do you support this as well?
    I don't have a strong opinion. I'd say if people are fine with it in general, why not? If people don't want them, then don't.
    Last edited by mican333; October 9th, 2019 at 11:42 AM.

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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    ... Abnormal might be the most exacting term. Clearly, even for them, this state of affairs represents a problem. How much of a problem varies from person to person."
    I agree though it is not as clear to Mican apparently....

    "Abnormal" is fine with me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Well, defect means broken....
    I have generally used serveral adjectives at a time to avoid a semantic discussion.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Ah, ya, headlines are often idiotic.
    I get your point, but it is what most of the issue has been about.

    ---------- Post added at 04:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:28 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    So then we can teach about transgender people then.
    I don't believe I have suggested otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    No one can truly say what it is like to be anyone else. But, we all have some insight into one another through shared experience and empathy.
    IOW, pretty much what I said a while back:
    you can sympathize, empathize, admire, aspire to be, and a whole host of things but you will not know what it is like to be/grow up a woman if you are not one.

    ---------- Post added at 04:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:33 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But how about this:

    Lesson 1. Menstruation - Just the biological facts about the female reproductive system with no mention of transgenderism
    Lesson 2. Transgenderism - Teaches all of the pertinent information about transgenderism and mentions that transgendered boys are biologically girls and therefore menstruate.
    Seems reasonable to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    So from now on, will you be adding "cisgender" in front of "boy" or "girl" when referring to them?
    Per you and Sig, a Trans-boy is a biological girl that that feels like, and wants to generally be accepted as, a biological boy.
    So there is only a need in communication for Trans to be mentioned if we are talking about a biological female being a boy.
    IOW (per you and Sig):
    The trans-boy feels emotionally like a biological boy instead of a biological girl. So obviously boy can't be biologically a girl or there would be nothing to Trans.
    Last edited by Belthazor; October 9th, 2019 at 07:12 PM.

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    Re: Boys Can Have Periods Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Per you and Sig, a Trans-boy is a biological girl that that feels like, and wants to generally be accepted as, a biological boy.
    So there is only a need in communication for Trans to be mentioned if we are talking about a biological female being a boy.
    But one only needs to mention that they are "trans" if them being trans is relevant to the conversation. For example, I've been talking about my trans-male friend because him being transgender is relevant to our discussion regarding him.

    But if we all met at a bar for drinks and conversation and him being trans was never part of any conversation, then there is no need to refer to him as a trans-boy in that situation and it would be more appropriate to just call him "boy" or "male". In fact, I don't think I've ever discussed his transgender status in front of him so I've never referred to him as transgender in his presence and just refer to him in masculine terms and pronouns.

 

 
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