Welcome guest, is this your first visit? Create Account now to join.
  • Login:

Welcome to the Online Debate Network.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.

Page 6 of 8 FirstFirst ... 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 LastLast
Results 101 to 120 of 143
  1. #101
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    948
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: The problem of divine hiddenness

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    We have boundaries to the free will equation. We can’t control many events and things that happen to us. But we can choose to manage how we respond to them.
    Well, sure, lots of stuff is out of our control!

    But when you say:
    "Then again, sometimes God goes after a non-believer because he needs that soul for a certain task. Those are fun yet dramatic events. So the Spirit may knock him/her off their horse, do some shock and awe and blind them for a couple of days. When they recover, the non-believer isn’t the same person any longer, but God has a recovered apostle. The Road To Damascus circumstance has happened more than once."

    we have clearly crossed the line of that persons free will. I don't know how you can suggest otherwise?

    ---------- Post added at 10:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:23 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    It sounds like you think God has some type of high tech cosmic App that controls our state of ignorance and/or awareness.
    Not at all

    The way we sense the world is at God's will. We see, hear, feel, etc, but do we see all? No, we see a small fraction of light. If your eyes could see gamma rays, you would see stars exploding at night. If you could see a soul we wouldn't argue about it would we? We could see ultra violet or infra red or many other things. Our other senses are similarly limited as well as our minds, and ALL are at God's will!


    ---------- Post added at 10:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:27 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Why do you believe or think this?
    Because God "decided the rules of the game, made the cards, dealt the cards, and knew the results of the hand, before the hand was dealt...".

    ---------- Post added at 10:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:30 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Because it’s easy, comfortable and makes us less accountable for our actions, thoughts and behavior.
    Interesting.
    1. Do you find "life" less comfortable since you learned of God's plan/ways/way of dealing with humans than before you were sure He existed?
    1a. I am going to assume you will say "no, you are not less comfortable". If that is the case, why do you assume other people would not feel as you do?

    2. How does being "conformed of this world" make us less accountable?

    3. Why would someone find this more appealing than what you say God offers?

    Aside:
    How could a human live eternally with out going nuts? I'm serious here. After you have done/seen/thought/etc everything what is left to live for?
    I don't want to die, but eternal life sounds like it could be Hell?
    Last edited by Belthazor; February 3rd, 2019 at 11:19 PM.

  2. #102
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    850
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: The problem of divine hiddenness

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Where have you supported that man (a physical phenomenon) cannot experience and observe the Spirit through direct personal experience?
    This question has nothing to do with my statement. Here it is again: There are no methods or tools which have been confirmed to be able to observe and experience anything regarding "the Spirit".

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Physical tools are limited to methods dealing with the finite. Useful as they are in our world, they have their limits. That doesn't mean those limits define truth.
    Actually, it does, as long as we care whether we create an accurate model of the truth. The methods and tools which have time and again proved to be the most reliable pathway to truth simply do not support your position, and the methods and tools which you are attempting to argue for are not a reliable pathway to truth, since they can be and are readily used to reach contradictory conclusions.

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Are you implying that God has not interacted with his creation, all souls, at some point in the evolutionary cycle? If so, can you support that or what dogma are you using to assume this?
    I'm not sure what you mean by "evolutionary cycle", but I don't need to assume that some deity has not interacted with its creation at some random point which we haven't experienced - that's entirely irrelevant. What's relevant is that we have absolutely no confirmed methods of demonstrating that any of the claims about deities or Spirits are true, and yet you claim to have some method which just happens to prove that the religion in which you just happen to have been brought up in is the truth. This is staggeringly irrational.

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Futureboy, do you mind if I ask you, would you like God to interact with you?
    If the deity you're referring to actually exists and the bible is an accurate depiction of its moral character, then no, I'd rather not have anything to do with such a horrible being. Of course, if the bible is true, then I don't really have any say in the matter, so it would regardless be up to the deity to decide whether it wants to "interact" with me and make me believe - I still wouldn't worship it, though.

  3. #103
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    West / East Coast
    Posts
    3,481
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: The problem of divine hiddenness

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Because God "decided the rules of the game,
    Yes, God created laws to govern the universe both material and spiritual laws.

    made the cards, dealt the cards,
    What does this mean?

    and knew the results of the hand, before the hand was dealt...".
    What does this mean?

    Do you find "life" less comfortable since you learned of God's plan/ways/way of dealing with humans than before you were sure He existed?
    Scriptures inform anyone interested about God’s plan.

    The process of renewing the human mind to make way for more interaction with the Spirit is often challenging and not easy until we get through it --- just as it’s very challenging for a person who wants to overcome bad habits and change a negative lifestyle. The process can be painful yet refining and transformative.

    How does being "conformed of this world" make us less accountable?
    If we conform completely to something that is dark and negative it will often effect or psyche and our decisions.

    Why would someone find this more appealing than what you say God offers?
    What did I say God offers?

    How could a human live eternally with out going nuts?
    What does this mean?

    After you have done/seen/thought/etc everything what is left to live for?
    Are you asking what is the benefit for: "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God?"

    I don't want to die, but eternal life sounds like it could be Hell?
    Why does it sound like hell and what does hell sound like?

    ---------- Post added February 6th, 2019 at 12:41 AM ---------- Previous post was February 5th, 2019 at 11:12 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    Actually, it does,
    We’ll have to agree to disagree here.


    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    Of course, if the bible is true, then I don't really have any say in the matter,
    You wouldn’t have a say in what matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    so it would regardless be up to the deity to decide whether it wants to "interact" with me and make me believe
    Why is it up to God? I asked you the question.
    "The universe is immaterial-mental and spiritual.” --"The Mental Universe” | Nature
    [Eye4magic]
    Super Moderator

  4. #104
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    850
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: The problem of divine hiddenness

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    As far as evidence, physical instruments and physical senses detect physical events and work well for producing physical evidence. But if you want evidence of the Spirit interacting with man in the natural world, and you’re sincere in your quest, it would probably be a good idea to use a method and tools that can observe and experience the Spirit.
    You appear to have dropped this line of discussion in our exchange, so I want to clarify, do you actually have evidence of or any way to reliably confirm the existence of something called "the Spirit" interacting with humans? Again, since there are no methods or tools which have been confirmed to be able to observe and experience anything regarding "the Spirit", any claims you make about it remain unsupported.

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    If there's some specific argument you wish to make, then make it. Posting a link is not an argument. My point is that the scientific method, and rational skepticism in general, has been consistently demonstrated to be the most reliable pathway to truth, whereas the "method" (it shouldn't be called an actual method until you clearly define it - so far it's nothing more than navel-gazing wu-wu) you're arguing for has not, and is regularly used to reach conclusions which contradict others using the same "method".

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    You wouldn’t have a say in what matter?
    In whether the god of the bible interacts with me and whether I would like it to interact with me.

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Why is it up to God? I asked you the question.
    You asked me whether I would like god to interact with me. Bot that and is whether it actually does is up to god, based on Xtian theism.

  5. #105
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    948
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: The problem of divine hiddenness

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    What does this mean?
    It means God made the universe, decided how it would function, thru humans in it with their "limited abilities" to perceive/understand.
    When you make all the rules but limit the ability of the participants to understand them...

    ---------- Post added at 06:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:31 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Scriptures inform anyone interested about God’s plan.
    First we need to know God exists and has a plan.
    Then, if God does exist, if you know of a way to discern the truth of all competing religious texts (as most are mutually exclusive), I would love to hear it

    ---------- Post added at 06:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:38 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    If we conform completely to something that is dark and negative it will often effect or psyche and our decisions.
    This world is "dark and negative"?

    ---------- Post added at 06:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:39 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    What did I say God offers?
    Hmmm, since your are Christian, "eternal life, forgiveness for past wrongs, etc".

    ---------- Post added at 06:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:40 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Are you asking what is the benefit for: "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God?"
    Umm, no.
    I asked how the human mind/psyche/essence/whatever could stay sane over an eternity??
    Or, is it even a goal worth pursuing?

    ---------- Post added at 06:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:44 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Why does it sound like hell and what does hell sound like?[COLOR="Silver"]
    Insanity "sounds" like Hell...
    You have lost your self/mind/essence/term of choice

    (not as in an actual "noise/something you could hear" for God's sake)

    ---------- Post added at 07:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:47 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Why is it up to God? I asked you the question.
    Because God makes all the rules of the game, the board and pieces we can use, and our own ability to understand all of these things. Even if we do all that perfectly, God only interacts at His discretion if at all...
    Last edited by Belthazor; February 7th, 2019 at 07:26 PM.

  6. #106
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    West / East Coast
    Posts
    3,481
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: The problem of divine hiddenness

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    It means God made the universe, decided how it would function, thru humans in it with their "limited abilities" to perceive/understand.
    When you make all the rules but limit the ability of the participants to understand them...

    Because God makes all the rules of the game, the board and pieces we can use, and our own ability to understand all of these things. Even if we do all that perfectly, God only interacts at His discretion if at all...
    That’s an interesting assessment Belthazor. I am not familiar with the Christiam teachings that supports your summary of how God created and organized the laws that govern earth and man. Can you tell me what Christian reference you are drawing from for this point of view?

    First we need to know God exists and has a plan.
    Then, if God does exist, if you know of a way to discern the truth of all competing religious texts (as most are mutually exclusive), I would love to hear it
    One common truth that runs through all the major world religions and is THE most important law/principle in Christianity is the law of love. I might suggest embracing that principle of truth as a good place to start.


    This world is "dark and negative"?
    I realize it may come as a shock to some people, but yes, this world has some negative and dark aspects. Fortunately, the good and positive outweighs the negative and, yes, we can choose what in our world will influence us or what will conform us if we allow ourselves to be influenced and conformed.

    Hmmm, since your are Christian, "eternal life, forgiveness for past wrongs, etc".
    I did not bring these noble principles into our discussion nor am I sure what they have to do with our conversation regarding: “And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God?"

    I asked how the human mind/psyche/essence/whatever could stay sane over an eternity??
    Or, is it even a goal worth pursuing?

    insanity "sounds" like Hell...
    You have lost your self/mind/essence/term of choice
    I’m trying to understand your reasoning here… how are you connecting these two ideas? What does the principle of eternal life have to do with “be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind.”

    ---------- Post added at 07:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:58 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    You appear to have dropped this line of discussion in our exchange, so I want to clarify, do you actually have evidence of or any way to reliably confirm the existence of something called "the Spirit" interacting with humans? Again, since there are no methods or tools which have been confirmed to be able to observe and experience anything regarding "the Spirit", any claims you make about it remain unsupported.
    As far as I am aware there are currently no physical instruments that can prove or disprove man’s personal experience of God/Spirit. So just saying “there are no methods it’s unsupported” doesn’t negate the reality of man’s personal experience of God. If you choose to accept that truth is strictly confined to what the physical sciences can measure… so be it. The Spirit is not a physical phenomenon.

    In whether the god of the bible interacts with me and whether I would like it to interact with me.
    Why would you not have a say if you choose to experience the Divine?

    You asked me whether I would like god to interact with me. Bot that and is whether it actually does is up to god, based on Xtian theism.
    Are you familiar with this Christian teaching? “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.” Matthew 7:7
    Last edited by eye4magic; February 9th, 2019 at 04:23 PM.
    "The universe is immaterial-mental and spiritual.” --"The Mental Universe” | Nature
    [Eye4magic]
    Super Moderator

  7. #107
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    948
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: The problem of divine hiddenness

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    That’s an interesting assessment Belthazor. I am not familiar with the Christiam teachings that supports your summary of how God created and organized the laws that govern earth and man. Can you tell me what Christian reference you are drawing from for this point of view?
    A paraphrase to be sure, however what part do see as incompatible with Christianity?

    ---------- Post added at 01:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:29 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    One common truth that runs through all the major world religions and is THE most important law/principle in Christianity is the law of love. I might suggest embracing that principle of truth as a good place to start.
    Why would you think I am devoid of love?
    How is "knowing the law of love" going to help me discern the true religion of God?

    ---------- Post added at 02:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:31 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    I realize it may come as a shock to some people, but yes, this world has some negative and dark aspects.
    You said:
    "If we conform completely to something that is dark and negative it will often effect or psyche and our decisions."

    I took that to mean more than "some", perhaps I misunderstood...

    ---------- Post added at 02:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:14 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    I did not bring these noble principles into our discussion nor am I sure what they have to do with our conversation regarding: “And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God?"
    You asked:
    "What did I say God offers?"
    Are those not common beliefs among Christians?

    ---------- Post added at 02:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:16 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    I’m trying to understand your reasoning here… how are you connecting these two ideas? What does the principle of eternal life have to do with “be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind.”[COLOR="Silver"]
    It was a question. I asked if eternal life was a goal worth pursuing?

    ---------- Post added at 02:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:19 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Are you familiar with this Christian teaching? “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.” Matthew 7:7
    I have heard about it. First hand experience with it, not as much...

  8. #108
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    West / East Coast
    Posts
    3,481
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: The problem of divine hiddenness

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    A paraphrase to be sure, however what part do see as incompatible with Christianity?
    Pretty much the whole thing. What Christian source supports your view?

    Why would you think I am devoid of love?
    Where was this stated?

    How is "knowing the law of love" going to help me discern the true religion of God?
    Embracing and experiencing unconditional divine love from God is often a transformative game changer (mental, emotional, psychological and sometimes even physical) for humans. Why? Because we tend to conform to exercising love for others with conditions, filters and if/ when clauses. Sometimes discretion is necessary on this planet but the human habit of putting conditions on who and how we share our love obscures truth and understanding from us because God is love.

    There's an interesting passage in the Bible about this concept. "If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?" 1 John 4:20

    You asked:
    "What did I say God offers?"
    Are those not common beliefs among Christians?
    Let’s do a recap on this point:


    Bel: Why is/would being "conformed of this world" be more enticing than the possibilities you speak of?

    Eye: Because it’s easy, comfortable and makes us less accountable for our actions, thoughts and behavior.


    Bel: Why would someone find this more appealing than what you say God offers?

    Eye: What did I say God offers?

    Bel: Hmmm, since your are Christian, "eternal life, forgiveness for past wrongs, etc".

    Eye: I’m trying to understand your reasoning here… how are you connecting these two ideas? What does the principle of eternal life have to do with “be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind.”

    Bel: You asked:
    "What did I say God offers?"
    Are those not common beliefs among Christians?
    ___________

    The possibility I am referring to is interacting with God.


    It was a question. I asked if eternal life was a goal worth pursuing?
    I think the concept of eternal life can be confusing for people trying to figure out if God exists or not. And the reason I say this is because our current reality consists of time segments of the past, present and future. That’s what we relate to -- that's what we know or think we know. The closest opportunity we have to venturing outside those boundaries is when we dream. We pretty much dream in the present – there is no time reference in the dream state.

    With that said. the abstract concept of living eternally (when all is said and done with our journey) is a result, a consequence of knowing God through his interaction with our soul.

    I have heard about it. First hand experience with it, not as much...
    Sorry, but I actually made this point to Futureboy and mistakeningly included it in the last post.
    "The universe is immaterial-mental and spiritual.” --"The Mental Universe” | Nature
    [Eye4magic]
    Super Moderator

  9. #109
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    948
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: The problem of divine hiddenness

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Pretty much the whole thing. What Christian source supports your view?
    God created the universe and Earth.
    He decided how matter would interact, how strong gravity would be, and all other natural laws.

    Are we good so far?
    https://www.biblestudytools.com/genesis/1.html
    "The Beginning
    1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. 3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.”

    If not, you will have to define what god we are discussing because what I have forwarded sounds Christian to me?

    ---------- Post added at 01:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:23 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Where was this stated?
    Sorry, I misread your statement, I retract the "devoid of love" comment.

    Again though, how would embracing the "law of love" help me discern which religion is the truth (which was my original question)?

    ---------- Post added at 01:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:31 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Embracing and experiencing unconditional divine love from God is often a transformative...
    Indeed, I imagine some one that had actually experienced that would find it profound.

    ---------- Post added at 01:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:36 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    The possibility I am referring to is interacting with God.
    Cool, I'm available at His convenience

    ---------- Post added at 01:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:41 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    I think the concept of eternal life can be confusing for people trying to figure out if God exists or not.
    Though you may be correct here, this is not what I asked at all.
    I was pondering the human mind existing eternally and if it would be a positive?

    ---------- Post added at 01:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:43 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    I think the concept of eternal life can be confusing for people trying to figure out if God exists or not. And the reason I say this is because our current reality consists of time segments of the past, present and future. That’s what we relate to -- that's what we know or think we know. The closest opportunity we have to venturing outside those boundaries is when we dream. We pretty much dream in the present – there is no time reference in the dream state.
    I agree on how we see time in general.

    I don't agree that there is no time reference in dreams. I have had dreams where:

    I was a child
    I was falling thru the air in slow motion
    I have wondered why some one in my dream was taking soooo long to do something

    ---------- Post added at 01:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:50 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Sorry, but I actually made this point to Futureboy and mistakeningly included it in the last post.
    I realized you were talking to Future but I answered as it relates to our conversation as well.

  10. #110
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    West / East Coast
    Posts
    3,481
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: The problem of divine hiddenness

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    God created the universe and Earth.

    “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”
    Yes, God created the heavens (spiritual world) and the earth (physical world).(No CGI involved )


    https://www.biblestudytools.com/genesis/1.html
    "The Beginning
    1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. 3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.”

    If not, you will have to define what god we are discussing because what I have forwarded sounds Christian to me?
    Again though, how would embracing the "law of love" help me discern which religion is the truth (which was my original question)?
    Embracing unconditional love can change our perception and awareness so that we become more aware of truth.

    Though you may be correct here, this is not what I asked at all.
    I was pondering the human mind existing eternally and if it would be a positive?
    Let’s define terms. Human to me implies a finite object. A human has a beginning and they have an end. Mind on the other hand, might be governed by a different formula. We have no idea what happens to the mind when the human ceases to exist and is no longer subject to time/space boundaries. But I will note that researchers, doctors and scientists are studying this phenomena of the mind surviving clinical death and there’s a growing body of interesting data developing in this area.

    So, are you asking would the mind without the limitation of a human body be a positive experience?



    I don't agree that there is no time reference in dreams. I have had dreams where:

    I was a child
    I was falling thru the air in slow motion
    I have wondered why some one in my dream was taking soooo long to do something
    I’m referring to the illusion/realm that we dream in. There is no spacetime boundaries. There’s just the present even if we dream of time travel or time itself. In lucid dream, for example, that’s why we can choose to fly wherever we want, or go have lunch with George Washington or move a mountain. In lucid dreams we can pretty much go instaneously wherever our thought takes us immediately – no spacetime limitations.
    Last edited by eye4magic; February 13th, 2019 at 11:54 AM.
    "The universe is immaterial-mental and spiritual.” --"The Mental Universe” | Nature
    [Eye4magic]
    Super Moderator

  11. #111
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    948
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: The problem of divine hiddenness

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Yes, God created the heavens (spiritual world) and the earth (physical world).(No CGI involved )
    Great!

    Now God also created humans with their myriad of emotions, biases, limited senses (as in there is much more light available to see if our eyes were capable of it for instance) and cognitive abilities.

    Are we still good to here?

    ---------- Post added at 05:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:26 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Embracing unconditional love can change our perception and awareness so that we become more aware of truth.
    What does "embracing unconditional love" mean? As in, how does one actually do this? What "steps" does one take?

    ---------- Post added at 05:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:29 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Let’s define terms. Human to me implies a finite object. A human has a beginning and they have an end. Mind on the other hand, might be governed by a different formula. We have no idea what happens to the mind when the human ceases to exist and is no longer subject to time/space boundaries.
    I'm good with these definitions.

    We actually have no idea that mind is separate from body, but if it is, it could be "governed by a different formula", though we have no real experience with anything that is governed differently.

    ---------- Post added at 05:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:33 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    But I will note that researchers, doctors and scientists are studying this phenomena of the mind surviving clinical death and there’s a growing body of interesting data developing in this area.
    Interesting field of study

    However, "near death" shares a great deal with "near pregnant"!

    ---------- Post added at 05:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:39 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    So, are you asking would the mind without the limitation of a human body be a positive experience?
    Not at all.
    I, again, was pondering the human mind existing for eternity (people get bored, easily). Eternity means you have "time" to see and do everything possible for you to do/see/know....forever...again and again and again and again.....
    End of learning, challenges, anything new....

    A body has nothing to do with my question, I am referring to whether living eternally is a positive or a negative ultimately???
    Christians are told this is a great thing, but I don't hear much about how one would actually live in such a situation?

    ---------- Post added at 05:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:50 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    I’m referring to the illusion/realm that we dream in. There is no spacetime boundaries. There’s just the present even if we dream of time travel or time itself. In lucid dream, for example, that’s why we can choose to fly wherever we want, or go have lunch with George Washington or move a mountain. In lucid dreams we can pretty much go instaneously wherever our thought takes us immediately – no spacetime limitations.
    Now this is something I do have very personal experience with. I read a bit about lucid dreaming. Sounded cool, so I actively pursued it. I found it took very little "effort" to start having almost complete control of my dreams. I found it so intriguing that within a short time I would much rather sleep than be awake. It disturbed me that I was so eager to give up my waking hours virtually completely because my dreams were just soooo damn awesome :( ?....?.....?.....
    From the first time I "tried" to have a lucid dream till the time I stopped "trying" was 6 weeks or so...

  12. #112
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    West / East Coast
    Posts
    3,481
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: The problem of divine hiddenness

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Now God also created humans with their myriad of emotions, biases, limited senses (as in there is much more light available to see if our eyes were capable of it for instance) and cognitive abilities.

    Are we still good to here?
    Uh, no. Not sure what source you’re using, but from Christian text, here’s the framework of God’s creation of man:

    “So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.” Genesis 1:27

    Not sure where you get God created man with “myriad of emotions, biases, limited senses (as in there is much more light available to see if our eyes were capable of it for instance) and cognitive abilities.” Where does that come from?

    What does "embracing unconditional love" mean? As in, how does one actually do this? What "steps" does one take?
    Live it.
    Practice it.
    Be it

    A body has nothing to do with my question, I am referring to whether living eternally is a positive or a negative ultimately???
    Christians are told this is a great thing, but I don't hear much about how one would actually live in such a situation?
    I see, well you seem to be presenting a hypothetical scenario here. I like hypotheticals, btw, it exercises the imagination. So let’s consider some criteria (context) first:

    1. There’s a mind free of the physical form existing in the heavenly realm; some call this a soul.
    2. It is no longer restricted by the limitations of time/space (the physical world).
    3. Since we’re talking about Christianity, the soul in its new heavenly realm no longer experiences any sense of separation from its Creator.
    4. It is ONE with its Creator.

    Given that hypotethical criteria, are you asking why would it be awesome (or not) for mind/soul to exist eternally (one with God) in the heaven-world?

    From the first time I "tried" to have a lucid dream till the time I stopped "trying" was 6 weeks or so...
    Interesting….
    Last edited by eye4magic; February 13th, 2019 at 08:28 PM.
    "The universe is immaterial-mental and spiritual.” --"The Mental Universe” | Nature
    [Eye4magic]
    Super Moderator

  13. #113
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    948
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: The problem of divine hiddenness

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Uh, no. Not sure what source you’re using, but from Christian text, here’s the framework of God’s creation of man:

    “So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.” Genesis 1:27

    Not sure where you get God created man with “myriad of emotions, biases, limited senses (as in there is much more light available to see if our eyes were capable of it for instance) and cognitive abilities.” Where does that come from?
    Unless you are saying humans do not have those attributes, we acquired them somehow, if not God, how?

    ---------- Post added at 07:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:10 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Live it.
    Practice it.
    Be it
    Hmmm....

    ---------- Post added at 07:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:11 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    I see, well you seem to be presenting a hypothetical scenario here. I like hypotheticals, btw, it exercises the imagination. So let’s consider some criteria (context) first:

    1. There’s a mind free of the physical form existing in the heavenly realm; some call this a soul.
    2. It is no longer restricted by the limitations of time/space (the physical world).
    3. Since we’re talking about Christianity, the soul in its new heavenly realm no longer experiences any sense of separation from its Creator.
    4. It is ONE with its Creator.

    Given that hypotethical criteria, are you asking why would it be awesome (or not) for mind/soul to exist eternally (one with God) in the heaven-world?

    Why does this sound hypothetical as apposed to Christian common belief?

    What will occupy ones mind for eternity?
    Last edited by Squatch347; February 15th, 2019 at 05:47 AM. Reason: Tag cleanup

  14. #114
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    West / East Coast
    Posts
    3,481
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: The problem of divine hiddenness

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Unless you are saying humans do not have those attributes, we acquired them somehow, if not God, how?
    Well, you seem to be saying that God created man with those attributes. I was asking you what Christian teachings/text supports that? If you don’t think there is any Christian teachings that supports your view, how did you form your opinion?

    Why does this sound hypothetical as apposed to Christian common belief?
    I don’t think there is a detailed blueprint in Christianity of what happens to the soul once it sheds it earthly garments or how the soul experiences eternity. There are some general references about the subject in the Bible – but no details. Also, there are different views and beliefs on this topic. So for the purpose of debate I wanted to establish some context.

    What will occupy ones mind for eternity?
    Before I submit some more hypotheticals of being in eternity, here are some points to consider. Let me know what you think.

    1. Can we comprehend the state of eternity while we are in a finite form? Earlier in one of your posts you seemed to agree with me that language itself has limitations to expressing experiences and certain phenomena in our world. Do you think the limitation of human language (the mere use of words and concepts) can allow us to understand being in eternity?

    2. Can a thimble grasp an endless ocean?

    3. Can humans comprehend this state: “A thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night. Psalm 90:4
    "The universe is immaterial-mental and spiritual.” --"The Mental Universe” | Nature
    [Eye4magic]
    Super Moderator

  15. #115
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    948
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: The problem of divine hiddenness

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Well, you seem to be saying that God created man with those attributes. I was asking you what Christian teachings/text supports that? If you don’t think there is any Christian teachings that supports your view, how did you form your opinion?
    God made man. Man's abilities, cognitive and perceptual, are limited.

    What Christian teaching does not support this?

    ---------- Post added at 04:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:23 PM ----------

    [/QUOTE=eye4magic;563869]
    I don’t think there is a detailed blueprint in Christianity of what happens to the soul once it sheds it earthly garments or how the soul experiences eternity. There are some general references about the subject in the Bible – but no details. Also, there are different views and beliefs on this topic. So for the purpose of debate I wanted to establish some context.
    [/QUOTE]

    No one was asking for a "detailed blueprint". You said:

    "1. There’s a mind free of the physical form existing in the heavenly realm; some call this a soul.
    2. It is no longer restricted by the limitations of time/space (the physical world).
    3. Since we’re talking about Christianity, the soul in its new heavenly realm no longer experiences any sense of separation from its Creator.
    4. It is ONE with its Creator."

    In what way would this conflict with Christianity as apposed to just being a hypothetical?

    ---------- Post added at 04:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:27 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    1. Can we comprehend the state of eternity while we are in a finite form? Earlier in one of your posts you seemed to agree with me that language itself has limitations to expressing experiences and certain phenomena in our world. Do you think the limitation of human language (the mere use of words and concepts) can allow us to understand being in eternity?

    2. Can a thimble grasp an endless ocean?

    3. Can humans comprehend this state: “A thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night. Psalm 90:4
    1. Though not a given, I don't see that we necessarily could not understand. We can represent a three dimensional object on a two dimensional paper.
    Eternity could be like today, except we never run out of todays. Perhaps the "sun just never goes down".
    1a. A soul would still only live in the present, they would just have an infinite future (an untenable position to me). I don't see any reason to think living eternally would allow you to live anywhere but the present. IOW no experiencing past/present/future at the same time as God is said to be capable of.
    1b. I do agree language will always be an issue at some level, though it need not be catastrophic to understanding.
    1c. This universe will "die" someday. Where will souls go then?
    2. No.

    3. Seems pretty straight forward. If we could talk to a fruit fly (who live 1-2 mo's), we could convey a very similar time reference.

  16. #116
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    West / East Coast
    Posts
    3,481
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: The problem of divine hiddenness

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    God made man. Man's abilities, cognitive and perceptual, are limited.

    What Christian teaching does not support this?
    God created man in God’s image. What Christian teaching supports that God created man with those limitations? This is your claim right?

    Why are you blaming God for man’s negative traits?


    In what way would this conflict with Christianity as apposed to just being a hypothetical?
    The level of freedom a soul has once it leaves the body is hypothetical. This could depend on each individual soul.

    1. Though not a given, I don't see that we necessarily could not understand. We can represent a three dimensional object on a two dimensional paper.
    Eternity could be like today, except we never run out of todays. Perhaps the "sun just never goes down".
    You're not recongizing the main point here, which is state of being. If a soul is no longer separated from its Creator (eternal), today in our relative reality, for example, some call people with such experiences delusional. Why? Because when some people experience God directly and all separation to their Source is removed, they experience eternity. Yet, their explanation of this state to most mortals makes no sense – especially skeptics. Why?

    Because nonseparation with the eternal gives us the ineffable, nonconceptual, unitive, nondual, transcendent knowledge, the ungraspable, formless, that which transcends the mind’s capacities, it is incomprehensible, it is perfect and absolute.

    So before you grapple with the hypothetical of what you can do in eternity, have you considered in your finite form, that your first perk of Existence in the Divine is a state that is ungraspable to your human form?

    This universe will "die" someday. Where will souls go then?
    The universe may go away, but that shouldn’t affect the heaven world. I don't think the heaven world requires a physical universe to be.
    Last edited by eye4magic; February 15th, 2019 at 10:33 PM.
    "The universe is immaterial-mental and spiritual.” --"The Mental Universe” | Nature
    [Eye4magic]
    Super Moderator

  17. #117
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    948
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: The problem of divine hiddenness

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    What Christian teaching supports that God created man with those limitations? This is your claim right?
    Because we have had them since Adam and Eve.

    There are no Christians teachings that state mans ability to process information, nor our senses have been altered by any source other than God.

    ---------- Post added at 06:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:32 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Why are you blaming God for man’s negative traits?
    I currently "blame" God for nothing at all, not even a little bit...

    ---------- Post added at 06:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:33 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    The level of freedom a soul has once it leaves the body is hypothetical. This could depend on each individual soul.
    Do you mean freedom of choice or abilities or ?

    ---------- Post added at 06:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:33 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    So before you grapple with the hypothetical of what you can do in eternity, have you considered in your finite form, that your first perk of Existence in the Divine is a state that is ungraspable to your human form?
    Ok, first perk sounds good. As to "what you can do" EVERYTHING for you to possibly do (given any constraints on ability).

    Again, once you do everything you can possibly do, the ONLY thing that you can do from that point on is something you have ALREADY done, perhaps countless times. You have limits on what you can do and an unlimited time to do it in!
    This you have not addressed.

    ---------- Post added at 06:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:49 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    The universe may go away, but that shouldn’t affect the heaven world. I don't think the heaven world requires a physical universe to be.
    Christians rarely talk of living in another "universe" in Heaven, but Christianity does seem to vary by the individual that believes.....

    ---------- Post added at 07:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:51 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    You're not recongizing the main point here, which is state of being. If a soul is no longer separated from its Creator (eternal), today in our relative reality, for example, some call people with such experiences delusional. Why? Because when some people experience God directly and all separation to their Source is removed, they experience eternity. Yet, their explanation of this state to most mortals makes no sense – especially skeptics. Why?
    How does one "experience eternity" in a fleeting moment? What does that even mean?

    God letting some "experience directly" and others not at all seems a bit out of sorts with the narrative...

  18. #118
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    West / East Coast
    Posts
    3,481
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: The problem of divine hiddenness

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Because we have had them since Adam and Eve.
    That doesn’t support God is responsible for man’s limitations.

    I currently "blame" God for nothing at all, not even a little bit...
    Well then it’s settled – neither do I.

    There are no Christians teachings that state mans ability to process information, nor our senses have been altered by any source other than God.
    Maybe I missed it, but where is this passage in the Bible?

    “And God created man with the limitation of processing information and when God was finished programming man’s mind/psyche with this limitation on the eight day, he rested….”


    Do you mean freedom of choice or abilities or ?
    Perhaps both.


    Ok, first perk sounds good. As to "what you can do" EVERYTHING for you to possibly do (given any constraints on ability).

    Again, once you do everything you can possibly do, the ONLY thing that you can do from that point on is something you have ALREADY done, perhaps countless times. You have limits on what you can do and an unlimited time to do it in!
    This you have not addressed.
    Since we’re talking about a state that is not human (eternity), try to suspend thinking like a human for a few minutes.

    In that state of being (one with the Spirit), all things in your state of being are absolute—everything. Boring is a human concept. Let it go for now. Also, depending on the realm (level) the soul is in, it may not be so much about “doing,” but more about thinking and being. There are no limits to thinking / being when we're one with the Spirit. The main currency in the heaven world is probably Light and the exciting opportunity is most likely the limitless ways of interacting/being/experiencing/thinking within that Light. So I would not be too concerned about being bored.

    In case life gets boring for you on earth, some humans who choose to do so, can experience a mental flush with this principle. ("I Make All Things New" Revelation 21:1-5)

    Here are some additional hypothetical perks for the eternal state that are possibilities. I could probably dream up more....

    1) Serve on cosmic committees to help (inspire) humans on earth or other lower evolutions on other planets.
    2) Serve on welcome committees for new souls entering the heaven-world.
    3) Attend spiritual universities that focus on subjects that you have a passion for.
    4) Go on cosmic missions to the far reaches of the universe.
    5) If you have to do another round on earth to resolve some issues, prepare for that mission.

    How does one "experience eternity" in a fleeting moment? What does that even mean?
    Well, it’s a tough one for us humans to grasp because we have this filter of time (a persistent illusion) over the mind. However, if you’re a meditator, and you have a momentum on it, you can sometimes experience the suspension of time while in meditation. It’s a wonderful experience.


    God letting some "experience directly" and others not at all seems a bit out of sorts with the narrative...
    Sorry, but this comment is displaced responsibility. The world we see and experience is the world we are creating around ourselves. If we want to experience the Divine, we have but to create the environment around us and in us where God is welcome and use his language. God’s language is Love. It is not rocket science.
    "The universe is immaterial-mental and spiritual.” --"The Mental Universe” | Nature
    [Eye4magic]
    Super Moderator

  19. #119
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    948
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: The problem of divine hiddenness

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    That doesn’t support God is responsible for man’s limitations.
    Since humans have had these limitations since they were created, it seems to fallow they were created that way.

    What is the alternative?

    ---------- Post added at 04:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:08 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Perhaps both.
    Freedom of choice is limited in Heaven?

    ---------- Post added at 04:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:09 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Since we’re talking about a state that is not human (eternity), try to suspend thinking like a human for a few minutes.
    So it's only our bodies makes us "human"?

    I had assumed my soul would still be me since you said the soul is basically my mind and the body more like a conduit?

    ---------- Post added at 05:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:25 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Well, it’s a tough one for us humans to grasp because we have this filter of time (a persistent illusion) over the mind. However, if you’re a meditator, and you have a momentum on it, you can sometimes experience the suspension of time while in meditation. It’s a wonderful experience.
    Our "filter of time" only exists because we can remember the past, know we are in the present, and predict there is a future based on the past.

    Some one meditating may not realize how much time has passed, but they are still aware that time has passed. IOW, if they started meditating at 10:00am and at the end of meditating it was still 10:00am, they would be startled/amazed/very curious/not expecting that.

    What is "meditating with momentum"???

    ---------- Post added at 05:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:11 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Sorry, but this comment is displaced responsibility. The world we see and experience is the world we are creating around ourselves. If we want to experience the Divine, we have but to create the environment around us and in us where God is welcome and use his language. God’s language is Love. It is not rocket science.
    God seeks out and directly communicates with certain humans at his discretion. Again, that not all can experience this questions the narrative.

    How does one speak/communicate by "love"?
    How would one convey and idea using "love"?

    No not rocket science, more like self hypnosis...

  20. #120
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    West / East Coast
    Posts
    3,481
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: The problem of divine hiddenness

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Since humans have had these limitations since they were created, it seems to fallow they were created that way.

    What is the alternative?
    Alternative to what?



    Freedom of choice is limited in Heaven?
    It may be more about that freedom of expression is based on the state of being (consciousness) of the individual soul.

    -
    So it's only our bodies makes us "human"?

    I had assumed my soul would still be me
    I would assume that also, except while in the eternal, you would most likely know with certainty who you really are: a spiritual being who was having a human experience (your life) and your form most likely would be composed of some frequency of light.


    Our "filter of time" only exists because we can remember the past, know we are in the present, and predict there is a future based on the past.
    I think many people at the subconscious level know that time is an illusion. Many physicists seem to know this.


    What is "meditating with momentum"???
    Many years of practice.


    How does one speak/communicate by "love"?
    How would one convey and idea using "love"?
    I think we covered this already:

    Bel: What does "embracing unconditional love" mean? As in, how does one actually do this? What "steps" does one take?

    Eye: Live it.
    Practice it.
    Be it
    Last edited by eye4magic; February 20th, 2019 at 12:20 PM.
    "The universe is immaterial-mental and spiritual.” --"The Mental Universe” | Nature
    [Eye4magic]
    Super Moderator

 

 
Page 6 of 8 FirstFirst ... 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. The Problem with Divine Command Theory
    By Dionysus in forum Philosophical Debates
    Replies: 74
    Last Post: April 13th, 2018, 03:40 PM
  2. Divine Intervention
    By onalandline in forum Religion
    Replies: 105
    Last Post: December 11th, 2008, 02:29 PM
  3. SC: Is Morality Divine?
    By snackboy in forum General Debate
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: December 10th, 2008, 11:05 AM
  4. The Divine Whipping Boy!
    By AntiMaterialist in forum Religion
    Replies: 64
    Last Post: May 14th, 2004, 07:31 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •