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  1. #21
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    Re: Where are the Russia Collusion Charges?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Repeating faulty analysis doesn’t make it correct.
    If you are going to argue that analysis is incorrect, you will need to explain how it's wrong. Just saying "it's wrong" does not suffice.

    ---------- Post added at 02:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:49 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Isn't that what the dosier was? Russian intelligence agents information, accepted by one side, in an effort to effect the election?
    What dossier are you referring to?

    If it's not related to Stone's alleged crimes, you seem to be changing the topic here.

  2. #22
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    Re: Where are the Russia Collusion Charges?

    Been there and done that. I’m not required to repeat myself for you, just because you demand it.

    Hypothetically, lets say Stone did receive information from wikileaks. Is there any evidence that WL is controlled by Russia?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  3. #23
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    Re: Where are the Russia Collusion Charges?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Been there and done that. I’m not required to repeat myself for you, just because you demand it.
    I didn't demand anything. My last post contains nothing that could reasonably be considered a demand.

    I'm just saying that IF you are going to counter my argument, you will need something that resembles support and just telling me that I'm wrong will not suffice.

    So you are completely free to offer a supported argument that counters my argument or just let my argument stand.

    Either is fine with me.


    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Hypothetically, lets say Stone did receive information from wikileaks. Is there any evidence that WL is controlled by Russia?
    The indictment says he DID receive the information from wikileaks. And WL is not controlled by the Russians but the info that Stone received was from the Russians.

  4. #24
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    Re: Where are the Russia Collusion Charges?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    The indictment says he DID receive the information from wikileaks.
    Negative on that.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And WL is not controlled by the Russians...
    Then there is no evidence that Stone even communicated with a Russian or Russian agent, much less engaged in some criminal conspiracy with one.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  5. #25
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    Re: Where are the Russia Collusion Charges?

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    What dossier are you referring to?

    If it's not related to Stone's alleged crimes, you seem to be changing the topic here.
    Steel Dossier.

    As it relates to stone, I'm just saying I don't understand the pursuit of collusion as it has lead up to stone.
    As it relates to the OP.
    Quote Originally Posted by OP
    The only immoral collusion I see going on is between Democrats, the media and Mueller to make the public think that Trump did something illegal to win the election.
    So i would contribute that one should add dems with Russia to that collusion list.
    To serve man.

  6. #26
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    Re: Where are the Russia Collusion Charges?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Negative on that.
    "In an indictment unsealed Friday, the special counsel disclosed evidence that a top campaign official in 2016 dispatched Roger J. Stone, a longtime adviser to President Trump, to get information from WikiLeaks about the thousands of hacked Democratic emails. The effort began well after it was widely reported that Russian intelligence operatives were behind the theft, which was part of Moscow’s broad campaign to sabotage the 2016 president election."

    So yes, he did receive information from the Russians.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Then there is no evidence that Stone even communicated with a Russian or Russian agent, much less engaged in some criminal conspiracy with one.
    When Russians try to influence a campaign with hacked documents and you use the hack documents that the Russians took to help your side win the election, you are conspiring with them to use hacked documents to influence the election.

  7. #27
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    Re: Where are the Russia Collusion Charges?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    "In an indictment unsealed Friday, the special counsel disclosed evidence that a top campaign official in 2016 dispatched Roger J. Stone, a longtime adviser to President Trump, to get information from WikiLeaks about the thousands of hacked Democratic emails. The effort began well after it was widely reported that Russian intelligence operatives were behind the theft, which was part of Moscow’s broad campaign to sabotage the 2016 president election."

    So yes, he did receive information from the Russians.



    When Russians try to influence a campaign with hacked documents and you use the hack documents that the Russians took to help your side win the election, you are conspiring with them to use hacked documents to influence the election.
    False and false. Stone was sent to get them, yes, but no evidence he actually received anything. You really need to find legal definition of collusion or conspiracy, and support from a legitimate and respected legal analyst, or your claim can just be ignored.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  8. #28
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    Re: Where are the Russia Collusion Charges?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    False and false. Stone was sent to get them, yes, but no evidence he actually received anything. You really need to find legal definition of collusion or conspiracy, and support from a legitimate and respected legal analyst, or your claim can just be ignored.
    It's still conspiracy even if he didn't get anything.
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  9. #29
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    Re: Where are the Russia Collusion Charges?

    A reading of the full indictment showed that Stone claimed he had inside knowledge of what WikiLeaks had and he bragged about it to trump campaign officials who asked him for what he knew. It is also clear from the emails Stone actually had no idea what Wikileaks had or what/when they would release. He did lie about having conversations about this but it is pretty obvious there wasn't any collision with russia or russian operatives.

    To go a little further, the trump campaign did nothing illegal. There is nothing illegal in wanting to know what dirt exists about your opponent, even of the info was obtained illegally doing as the campaign played no part in the illegal activity. The Steele Dosier is an example of a campaign basically pushing made up accusations to the public, also provided by the Russians, but no one is talking Russian collusion. Why? Because like the Wikileaks email dump, the campaign didnt actually direct the Russians to provide the info.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

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  11. #30
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    Re: Where are the Russia Collusion Charges?

    @Ibelsd, that seems to be a legitimate distinction. It would explain why the steel dossier is not considered collusion. The gov just isn't making the same distinction for trump. So... I'm a bit confused as to which one is the correct legal distinction.
    To serve man.

  12. #31
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    Re: Where are the Russia Collusion Charges?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    @Ibelsd, that seems to be a legitimate distinction. It would explain why the steel dossier is not considered collusion. The gov just isn't making the same distinction for trump. So... I'm a bit confused as to which one is the correct legal distinction.
    Let's put aside being coy, which I think is what you are doing here, and just acknowledge that the FBI and Justice Dept went after Trump without evidence of an actual crime. They believed, likely due to their own confirmation bias, that the crime existed. Digging up dirt on your opponent has never been a crime. It shouldn't be a crime. We can decry it as shady and even immoral, but not illegal. The thing about the Dossier is that it was the key piece of evidence used to begin this whole collusion investigation. It still does not make it illegal for Clinton's team to have commissioned it and leaked it to the press. Shady? Yup. Immoral? For sure. Illegal? No. Trump's team tried to get dirt on Hillary by reaching out to Asange to determine what he had and to see find out when he planned to release the info. Shady? Yup. Immoral? For sure. Illegal? No. What is key here is that there is not, to this point, Mulluer and his team have not indicated that there has been a single instance of Trump's campaign team actually working with the Russians. None. The Stone allegations all relate to his contacts with an friend who supposedly had access to Asange. What the allegation showed clearly is that Stone, himself, had no inside info regarding Wikileaks, had no idea what information Wikileaks was holding, had no idea where the information came from, and therefore, couldn't possibly have coordinated this with the Russians or any other entity. Hence, this case adds nothing to the idea that the Trump campaign was colluding.

    Here is what I think, personally, Mueller is doing. He is making a case around all the shady dealings that went around Trump's campaign. His directive is to investigate possible collusion between Trump and Russia. Mueller is performing CYA because if he leaves any stone unturned, Democrats will claim he was in the bag for Republicans. So, he is going to go after everything. Then, when he has nailed every single Trump associate, he can make his report that there lots of shady and bad stuff going on, but no collusion. I think he's hoping to split the baby here and then hope everyone is satisfied. Make no mistake, at this level, everyone is playing politics, even prosecutors. Let's think back to Trump and 2015-2016 campaign team. Trump put together a collection of people he knew. Most people didn't expect him to win the nomination and, at the time, there were personal friends of Trump coming out and saying he didn't even want to be President. So, when he suddenly looked like a front-runner for the nomination, and eventually won, he scrambled to put a team together. I think it was Jim Comey who noted how he had Flynn interrogated without informing the White House and noted he'd have gone through the normal channels except that this White House was so discombobulated, he figured he could get away without informing them. And yet, we are to believe they were secretly plotting with the Russians this whole time? It is kinda incredulous to believe and I don't think Mueller thinks it. Remember when Comey, at point, noted the President was not under investigation. In fact, this whole thing was a counterintelligence operation, not a criminal investigation. Anyhow, I hope the new AG, Barr, forces Mueller to wrap this up. I think it is a side-show and has distracted the President from governing. Time for it to end one way or the other.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

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  14. #32
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    Re: Where are the Russia Collusion Charges?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    There is nothing illegal in wanting to know what dirt exists about your opponent [TRUE], even of the info was obtained illegally doing as the campaign played no part in the illegal activity [WRONG]. The Steele Dosier is an example of a campaign basically pushing made up [WRONG] accusations to the public, also provided by the Russians [WRONG, provided by an english dude], but no one is talking Russian collusion. Why? Because like the Wikileaks email dump, the campaign didnt actually direct the Russians to provide the info.
    Apples and oranges comparing a sincere intelligence document and an attack against the United States by a foreign power. There is a thread on this.

    ---------- Post added at 12:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:56 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    The thing about the Dossier is that it was the key piece of evidence used to begin this whole collusion investigation.
    Wrong, already completely discussed in the thread concerning it.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  15. #33
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    Re: Where are the Russia Collusion Charges?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Apples and oranges comparing a sincere intelligence document and an attack against the United States by a foreign power. There is a thread on this.

    ---------- Post added at 12:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:56 PM ----------



    Wrong, already completely discussed in the thread concerning it.
    Whatever. Sincere??? Wrong??? Go pound sand. I am going to limit the last days of ODN to serious discussions with serious people.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  16. #34
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    Re: Where are the Russia Collusion Charges?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Whatever. Sincere??? Wrong??? Go pound sand. I am going to limit the last days of ODN to serious discussions with serious people.
    Put your money where your mouth is and pay for a month Mr. High and Mighty.

    Ignoring threads where this has already been hashed out is the epitome of nuh-uhness. It is ignorant of previous work done on various sides and a lazy way to try and win by making opponents repeat themselves. ou obiously have nothing new to add instead you'll just fall back on tired Fox News talking points.

    Lemme try...raising the minimum wage is great for all workers, especially those just entering the workforce and those with little or no skills.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  17. #35
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    Re: Where are the Russia Collusion Charges?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Put your money where your mouth is and pay for a month Mr. High and Mighty.

    Ignoring threads where this has already been hashed out is the epitome of nuh-uhness. It is ignorant of previous work done on various sides and a lazy way to try and win by making opponents repeat themselves. ou obiously have nothing new to add instead you'll just fall back on tired Fox News talking points.

    Lemme try...raising the minimum wage is great for all workers, especially those just entering the workforce and those with little or no skills.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  18. #36
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    Re: Where are the Russia Collusion Charges?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Isn't working with foreign intelligence agents, or agents of foreign gov in order to produce material to damage a candidate for presidential election.. illegal?
    Isn't that what the firm did?
    No, generally it is not illegal. You can pay anyone you like to do private investigative work for you. Mind you, no one hired a foreign government. They hired a private investigator who used to work for a foreign government. You can't generally hire foreign governments.

    I don't think that the above is so easily circumvented as "o we hired an outside firm to do that". That would be pretty incriminating. At least.. it seems to me.
    It isn't. The thing with law, is you have to be able to say what law they violated. In the case of Russia, they violated the law where a foreign government or their agents are not allowed to spend money advertising in our domestic elections or working on behalf of one of our candidates. (not to mention stealing information from peoples private servers etc...) No law prohibits you from collecting dirty laundry on your opponents, real or otherwise.

    What matters is who paid for it. If a US orginization is paying the bills, it is legal. If a foreign government or group is paying the bills, it is illegal.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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  20. #37
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    Re: Where are the Russia Collusion Charges?

    @ sig, but I'd the famous pee tapes a product of Russian spending? Isn't the information gathered by Russian agents the product of Russian spending? Both are aspects of the dossier.

    I also seriously doubt on can hire a kgb agent to do opposition research without it being considered "collusion" at the very least in the non law sense that the media is bashing Trump over. You know seeing as there is no evidence of criminal foriefn spending.

    Bottom line that I see, is that Trump asked a Russian agents for dirt on Hillary, and Hillary asked a Russian agents for dirt in Trump. But only one is being investigated, and the distinction you point out doesn't seem to apply.
    To serve man.

  21. #38
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    Re: Where are the Russia Collusion Charges?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    @ sig, but I'd the famous pee tapes a product of Russian spending? Isn't the information gathered by Russian agents the product of Russian spending? Both are aspects of the dossier.
    A. no one knows if a pee tape exists, it is hearsay. It may, but it may not. B. The dossier is simply a report of information the private investigator collected. It was not paid for by the Russian government. It was paid for by the investigative agency who was paid by Clinton's Lawyer, who was paid by the Clinton campaign.

    If I write about a new ford pick up truck. Ford is not paying for what I write just because they paid for the thing I write about.

    I also seriously doubt on can hire a kgb agent to do opposition research without it being considered "collusion" at the very least in the non law sense that the media is bashing Trump over. You know seeing as there is no evidence of criminal foriefn spending.
    No one hired any KGB agents. (The KGB doesn't exist any more btw) But no one hired any russian agents to do op-ed research. No one is claiming anyone did.

    Bottom line that I see, is that Trump asked a Russian agents for dirt on Hillary, and Hillary asked a Russian agents for dirt in Trump. But only one is being investigated, and the distinction you point out doesn't seem to apply.
    I really don't think you have tried to understand the FBI investigation very hard. You compleately mischaracterize it.

    Russia participated in the US election by paying opperatives to advertise on social media, participate in campaign events, and to create fake news and fan organiations to talk about the election. They spent money to do this, and that is a crime.

    The FBI investigation is to find out if members of the Trump campaign coordinated those efforts with the Russians. For instance, said, if you advertise for us, we will change policy for you when we get into office. That is not the same as hiring someone to do opp-ed research for you. This would be the Trump campaign inviting a foreign government to advertising in an election and then promising them corrupt political pay back once they were in office. That would be very illegal.

    That is not the same as hiring a private foreign company to do an investigation for you.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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  23. #39
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    Re: Where are the Russia Collusion Charges?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    A. no one knows if a pee tape exists, it is hearsay. It may, but it may not. B. The dossier is simply a report of information the private investigator collected. It was not paid for by the Russian government. It was paid for by the investigative agency who was paid by Clinton's Lawyer, who was paid by the Clinton campaign.

    If I write about a new ford pick up truck. Ford is not paying for what I write just because they paid for the thing I write about.
    But, if Ford provided you with the article, you'd probably agree that you and Ford, where in some way, colluding. No? At the very least, if your information on the truck came exclusively from Ford, you'd acknowledge that your article probably isn't objective and be open to whatever spin Ford was trying to publish.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Russia participated in the US election by paying opperatives to advertise on social media, participate in campaign events, and to create fake news and fan organiations to talk about the election. They spent money to do this, and that is a crime.
    Well, yes, but no one serious believes we could actually prosecute any of the Russians involved. It isn't like they are going to extradite suspects, right? That's why this investigation was a counter-intelligence operation, not a criminal investigation. In truth, it is probably a misapplication of a special investigator who was told to go investigate crimes without having any real evidence that a crime existed. That's not how criminal investigations are supposed to work in the U.S. For example, would you find it appropriate if the police demanded to enter your house and search for evidence that you did something illegal even if they have no idea that a crime was committed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    The FBI investigation is to find out if members of the Trump campaign coordinated those efforts with the Russians. For instance, said, if you advertise for us, we will change policy for you when we get into office. That is not the same as hiring someone to do opp-ed research for you. This would be the Trump campaign inviting a foreign government to advertising in an election and then promising them corrupt political pay back once they were in office. That would be very illegal.

    That is not the same as hiring a private foreign company to do an investigation for you.
    This is problematic which I explained above. I mean, if the govt found a payment to a Russian official from a Trump official and then they investigate that crime. Fine. That isn't what happening. Rather, the FBI, devoid of any knowledge that a specific crime occurred, is investigating Trump officials in the hope of finding that a crime had been committed. Kind of backwards. No? Sure, it is a fine line. It is also important so we don't have investigations being used a weapon against political opponents.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  24. #40
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    Re: Where are the Russia Collusion Charges?

    @ sig. The dossier is a report about what the Russians said they have on Trump. They got the information from a foreign intelligence agent(ex) because he had access to Russian assets.
    It's not like the information came from a random blog. It is Russian info from Russia agents.
    That it does or does not actually exist is not the point as you said it is who is paying and it is clear that the Russians paid for that information to be created and available even if false.

    So I don't see that a destination exists.

    In response to you not thinking I have looked into the FBI investigation. I admit that I don't understand everything hence my questions. However your distinctions as offered are not consistent or valid as far as I can tell.

    Like the FBI is make ng sure that Trump didn't coordinate with Russia's release of information.. but the Dems released Russian info directly.
    So I am sorry that I don't see the distinction being made.

    Also Obama directly attempted to coordinate with the Russians ob his hot mic. Saying lay off so I can have more flexibility to lighten sanctions after elections. ... But I don't recall any counter intelligence investigation or similar criminal investigation.
    Am I to bieve that if a tape with Trump saying the exact same words Obama did would not result in impeachmebt proceedings? What is the relevant information?
    To serve man.

 

 
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