Where are the Russia Collusion Charges?

[CowboyX]

[evensaul]

The department of Justice and the FBI were (running the Mueller investigation).

I don't believe this is correct. There is a reason the position is called an "Independent Prosecutor". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_prosecutor

[Sigfried]

I don't believe this is correct. There is a reason the position is called an "Independent Prosecutor". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_prosecutor

Well true, he was the one controlling it. But he was chosen and appointed by the FBI deputy director Rosenstein who was a Trump Appointee. And while Mueller is the head of the investigation, it is carried out by FBI and DOJ staff who all report ultimately to Trump's administration.

It is independent and that's a good thing all around I think. But my key point was that the media was not in control of the investigation, nor were democratic operatives etc...

[Ibelsd]

More or less, ya.



We know that Carter Page was not the only link between Russia and the Trump campaign.



No. Carter Page's warrant was to allow the FBI to surveil Carter Page, not to investigate other people. it was far fromt he only warrant the FBI was working with.


What's my crime?



Generally not. And indeed, Carter Page was never charged with a crime. However, Carter Page was not the only person being investigated. Carter Page was neither the first American under investigation in connection to Russian Espionage nor the last.

First, we know that without Carter Page there is no investigation. Second. We know Carter was under surveillance shortly after he joined Trump's campaign and that the surveillance was approved by the FISA court largely (entirely?) on the basis of Steele's dossier. It was the ball that started the whole thing rolling.

What's your crime? Give the FBI and CIA enough time and I'm sure they can get you for something. Perhaps, just offering conflicting statements in interviews (i.e. lying). The point is, would you find such an inquisition just?

---------- Post added at 07:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:34 AM ----------

I’m not convinced this question was very relevant to the powers that drove this case for two years. In our system of justice, fairness is certainly relevant in the judicial process. However, and this is a personal opinion, I think what trumped fairness in how this case was contrived and inched along was the clear intent to damage President Trump. From the media standpoint, they tried and convicted him a long time ago.

I think this is also true.

[MindTrap028]

That's like saying... What if we saw the destination closer to the start of our journey? You know when you are done investigating. What you are saying is that he was done investigating right around when he started investigating. That's pretty clearly not true. Quite a lot happened in the intervening time. There were dozens of indictments, the most important of which (despite what you may have seen on TV, are the ones against Russians. He spent a lot of time investigating that, following the leads, making his case. That is the meat of the investigation. Its important to know if the Trump campaign was involved, and we learned they are not.

I don't see how you think he can know a fact before he's investigated a fact. Are you saying he secretly was working on the case long before he was appointed?

No.. of course not. The question is in regards to him having the conclusion (in regards to trump) much earlier in the investigation.. not BEFORE.

[Belthazor]

Again, I would mention that this

"DIRT"

we are discussing was all truthful unless something else has come up that I missed.

I am of the opinion that if the public were more aware of the truths in WA DC there would probably be less illegal/immoral activities going on!

[evensaul]

So, Mueller's report is out. :yawn:

[CowboyX]

So, Mueller's report is out. :yawn:

The President's council didn't think so.

[Belthazor]

The President's council didn't think so.

No kidding, I mean the Donald, ought/will be indicted any day one would think. How could he not, sitting president or not!

…..Except....what crime did "Mueller's report" attribute personally to the Donald, I forget?

Well, we will get to that later (maybe), it is not important at the moment is it?......

What is important is to get the Donald out of office, even if it means Pence!!
If we can get the Donald, we can get Pence too !

[CowboyX]

…..Except....what crime did "Mueller's report" attribute personally to the Donald, I forget?

Obstruction of justice...same as Bill Clinton and Richard Nixon.

[MindTrap028]

Obstruction of justice...same as Bill Clinton and Richard Nixon.

Except without the whole underlying crime generally necessary for there to be obstruction of justice.

[Belthazor]

Obstruction of justice...same as Bill Clinton and Richard Nixon.

I don't see this being carried to that level with the existing information.

[CowboyX]

Except without the whole underlying crime generally necessary for there to be obstruction of justice.

Nope, wrong as wrong can be. The obstruction IS the crime. Also, the obstruction doesn't have to be successful.

---------- Post added at 11:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:10 AM ----------

I don't see this being carried to that level with the existing information.

I'd say it's worse than Clinton's obstruction charge. Barr is creeping up on John Mitchell for the scummiest attorney general ever.

[MindTrap028]

Nope, wrong as wrong can be. The obstruction IS the crime. Also, the obstruction doesn't have to be successful.

That is certainly the only tactic left for the left to pursuit. The problem is, all of that stuff happened out in the open. So the jury is already back politically.
Also, his motivations (which are important to an assertion of this sort of crime) are pretty transparent, and don't fulfill the requirement.

[CowboyX]

That is certainly the only tactic left for the left to pursuit. The problem is, all of that stuff happened out in the open. So the jury is already back politically.
Also, his motivations (which are important to an assertion of this sort of crime) are pretty transparent, and don't fulfill the requirement.

Mueller was pretty clear and detailed on the intent and how it met the legal standard. Try reading the report.

[Belthazor]

Mueller was pretty clear and detailed on the intent and how it met the legal standard. Try reading the report.

Instead of just saying it is so and expecting every one to agree, how about post the relevant point from the report. You know, like support.

[CowboyX]

Instead of just saying it is so and expecting every one to agree, how about post the relevant point from the report. You know, like support.

Is that a challenge?

[Belthazor]

Is that a challenge?

Do you mean "thingy"?


If ya like.

It was really more of a conversation/debate kinda idea though...

[CowboyX]

Do you mean "thingy"?


If ya like.

It was really more of a conversation/debate kinda idea though...

"In considering whether the president may have committed obstruction of justice, Mueller examined 11 “key events,” which we will summarize below. The report notes that prosecutors need to establish “three basic elements” for an obstruction charge: “an obstructive act; some form of nexus between the obstructive act and an official proceeding; and criminal (i.e., corrupt) intent.”"


I think this is one of the good ones but you can read them all at the source:



"Efforts to curtail the special counsel’s investigation

In the summer of 2017 the president sought the help of Corey Lewandowski — his original campaign manager whom White House officials quoted in the report described as a “devotee” — to limit the scope of the Russia investigation.

In an Oval Office meeting on June 19, 2017, two days after Trump had tried to have the special counsel removed, the president dictated a message that he wanted Lewandowski to take to Sessions. The message was actually the outline of a speech that Trump wanted Sessions to give. According to Lewandowski’s notes quoted in the report, it went like this:

I know that I recused myself from certain things having to do with specific areas. But our POTUS . .. is being treated very unfairly. He shouldn’t have a Special Prosecutor/Counsel b/c he hasn’t done anything wrong. I was on the campaign w/ him for nine months, there were no Russians involved with him. I know it for a fact b/c I was there. He didn’t do anything wrong except he ran the greatest campaign in American history.

Now a group of people want to subvert the Constitution of the United States. I am going to meet with the Special Prosecutor to explain this is very unfair and let the Special Prosecutor move forward with investigating election meddling for future elections so that nothing can happen in future elections. [Obstructive Act]

If that message had made it to Sessions and been accepted by him, it could have limited the scope of the investigation to only foreign interference on future elections, rather than the one that was being investigated. [Intent]

But it didn’t get to Sessions. Lewandowski told investigators that he didn’t want to deliver the message over the phone and didn’t want to meet at the Justice Department — it was “Sessions’s turf,” according to the report — and scheduling conflicts kept them apart. So, for a month, the message stayed in a safe at Lewandowski’s home, he told investigators.

On July 19, 2017, Trump and Lewandowski met again in the Oval Office, and Lewandowski told the president his message would be delivered soon. Lewandowski had asked Rick Dearborn, a senior White House official who had a relationship with Sessions, to deliver the message. The pair ran into each other outside of the Oval Office following that meeting, and Lewandowski passed along a typewritten version of the message.

Dearborn “did not recall” whether or not Lewandowski said the message was from the president, according to the report. “The message ‘definitely raised an eyebrow’ for Dearborn, and he recalled not wanting to ask where it came from or think further about doing anything with it,” the report said.

Dearborn told investigators that he told Lewandowski he’d handled the situation, but he never actually gave the message to Sessions.

Later on the same day, Trump gave an unplanned interview to the New York Times in which he criticized Sessions for recusing himself from the Russia investigation.

By July 22, 2017, the president had shifted focus to getting Sessions to resign and, while on Marine One, asked for help from his chief of staff, Reince Priebus.

“Priebus believed that the President’s request was a problem, so he called McGahn and asked for advice, explaining that he did not want to pull the trigger on something that was ‘all wrong,’” according to the report. McGahn told Priebus not to follow the president’s order and, instead, consult his own lawyer.

The special counsel’s analysis of this evidence concluded that the president sought to limit the special counsel’s review to only future elections after he had learned that his own conduct was part of the investigation." [Nexus to an Official Act - Intent] emphasis and [notes] mine

[Belthazor]

"In considering whether the president may have committed obstruction of justice, Mueller examined 11 “key events,” which we will summarize below. The report notes that prosecutors need to establish “three basic elements” for an obstruction charge: “an obstructive act; some form of nexus between the obstructive act and an official proceeding; and criminal (i.e., corrupt) intent.”"


I think this is one of the good ones but you can read them all at the source:



"Efforts to curtail the special counsel’s investigation

In the summer of 2017 the president sought the help of Corey Lewandowski — his original campaign manager whom White House officials quoted in the report described as a “devotee” — to limit the scope of the Russia investigation.

In an Oval Office meeting on June 19, 2017, two days after Trump had tried to have the special counsel removed, the president dictated a message that he wanted Lewandowski to take to Sessions. The message was actually the outline of a speech that Trump wanted Sessions to give. According to Lewandowski’s notes quoted in the report, it went like this:

I know that I recused myself from certain things having to do with specific areas. But our POTUS . .. is being treated very unfairly. He shouldn’t have a Special Prosecutor/Counsel b/c he hasn’t done anything wrong. I was on the campaign w/ him for nine months, there were no Russians involved with him. I know it for a fact b/c I was there. He didn’t do anything wrong except he ran the greatest campaign in American history.

Now a group of people want to subvert the Constitution of the United States. I am going to meet with the Special Prosecutor to explain this is very unfair and let the Special Prosecutor move forward with investigating election meddling for future elections so that nothing can happen in future elections. [Obstructive Act]

If that message had made it to Sessions and been accepted by him, it could have limited the scope of the investigation to only foreign interference on future elections, rather than the one that was being investigated. [Intent]

But it didn’t get to Sessions. Lewandowski told investigators that he didn’t want to deliver the message over the phone and didn’t want to meet at the Justice Department — it was “Sessions’s turf,” according to the report — and scheduling conflicts kept them apart. So, for a month, the message stayed in a safe at Lewandowski’s home, he told investigators.

On July 19, 2017, Trump and Lewandowski met again in the Oval Office, and Lewandowski told the president his message would be delivered soon. Lewandowski had asked Rick Dearborn, a senior White House official who had a relationship with Sessions, to deliver the message. The pair ran into each other outside of the Oval Office following that meeting, and Lewandowski passed along a typewritten version of the message.

Dearborn “did not recall” whether or not Lewandowski said the message was from the president, according to the report. “The message ‘definitely raised an eyebrow’ for Dearborn, and he recalled not wanting to ask where it came from or think further about doing anything with it,” the report said.

Dearborn told investigators that he told Lewandowski he’d handled the situation, but he never actually gave the message to Sessions.

Later on the same day, Trump gave an unplanned interview to the New York Times in which he criticized Sessions for recusing himself from the Russia investigation.

By July 22, 2017, the president had shifted focus to getting Sessions to resign and, while on Marine One, asked for help from his chief of staff, Reince Priebus.

“Priebus believed that the President’s request was a problem, so he called McGahn and asked for advice, explaining that he did not want to pull the trigger on something that was ‘all wrong,’” according to the report. McGahn told Priebus not to follow the president’s order and, instead, consult his own lawyer.

The special counsel’s analysis of this evidence concluded that the president sought to limit the special counsel’s review to only future elections after he had learned that his own conduct was part of the investigation." [Nexus to an Official Act - Intent] emphasis and [notes] mine

I totally agree (if this is accurate) that the Donald is acting less than honest but I don't see it rising to the bar that you raised:
“an obstructive act; some form of nexus between the obstructive act and an official proceeding; and criminal (i.e., corrupt) intent.”

However, I also agree that if it does in fact rise to that level, then the Donald should be prosecuted like anyone else.

Are there any other examples?