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  1. #1
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    Where are the Russia Collusion Charges?

    Roger Stone indicted today. Manafort and Cohen earlier.

    But where are the charges for illegally colluding with Russia to win the election? Nowhere to be seen! They don't exist. Stone, for example, is charged with lying to federal investigators and witness tampering, things that happened after the investigation by Mueller began, and having nothing to do with any supposed collusion with Russia.

    The only immoral collusion I see going on is between Democrats, the media and Mueller to make the public think that Trump did something illegal to win the election.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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  3. #2
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    Re: Where are the Russia Collusion Charges?

    I'm a bit confused by the "collusion" accusation.

    If collusion is talking to the Russian gov to influence the election. Isn't that exactly what the Trump Dossier is?
    Why is that not an issue to be investigated?

    I know that the immediate response is to say that collusion refers to something else, but that certainly doesn't seem to be the way it is used on the most common basis.
    It just seems like the way the accusation is being used, there are many other people that just so happen to be dems that should be under investigation as well.
    To serve man.

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    Re: Where are the Russia Collusion Charges?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Roger Stone indicted today. Manafort and Cohen earlier.

    But where are the charges for illegally colluding with Russia to win the election? Nowhere to be seen! They don't exist. Stone, for example, is charged with lying to federal investigators and witness tampering, things that happened after the investigation by Mueller began, and having nothing to do with any supposed collusion with Russia.

    "WASHINGTON — The special counsel, Robert S. Mueller III, revealed on Friday the most direct link yet between the Trump campaign’s and WikiLeaks’ parallel efforts to use Democratic Party material stolen by Russians to damage the election campaign of Hillary Clinton.

    In an indictment unsealed Friday, the special counsel disclosed evidence that a top campaign official in 2016 dispatched Roger J. Stone, a longtime adviser to President Trump, to get information from WikiLeaks about the thousands of hacked Democratic emails. The effort began well after it was widely reported that Russian intelligence operatives were behind the theft, which was part of Moscow’s broad campaign to sabotage the 2016 president election."


    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/25/u...p-mueller.html

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    The only immoral collusion I see going on is between Democrats, the media and Mueller to make the public think that Trump did something illegal to win the election.
    Got anything resembling support for this charge?

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  6. #4
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    Re: Where are the Russia Collusion Charges?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    "WASHINGTON — The special counsel, Robert S. Mueller III, revealed on Friday the most direct link yet between the Trump campaign’s and WikiLeaks’ parallel efforts to use Democratic Party material stolen by Russians to damage the election campaign of Hillary Clinton.

    In an indictment unsealed Friday, the special counsel disclosed evidence that a top campaign official in 2016 dispatched Roger J. Stone, a longtime adviser to President Trump, to get information from WikiLeaks about the thousands of hacked Democratic emails. The effort began well after it was widely reported that Russian intelligence operatives were behind the theft, which was part of Moscow’s broad campaign to sabotage the 2016 president election."


    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/25/u...p-mueller.html
    Is there something you want to say about this article? Because I don't see anything that points to a crime being committed by Stone or Trump prior to the start of Mueller's investigation. Do you believe it is a crime "to get information from WikiLeaks"? If so, then why wasn't Stone charged with that crime? Hmmm?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  7. #5
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    Re: Where are the Russia Collusion Charges?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I'm a bit confused by the "collusion" accusation.

    If collusion is talking to the Russian gov to influence the election. Isn't that exactly what the Trump Dossier is?
    Why is that not an issue to be investigated?

    I know that the immediate response is to say that collusion refers to something else, but that certainly doesn't seem to be the way it is used on the most common basis.
    It just seems like the way the accusation is being used, there are many other people that just so happen to be dems that should be under investigation as well.
    The collision would be when you participate in or encourage activities that are criminal in some way. Russian agents spending money in the US elections is illegal so if the trump campaign participated in that then they were committing a crime. Same goes for stealing emails or any other criminal activity.

    Hiring a foreign firm to do work on behalf of your campaign, so long as you are paying them a market price, is not illegal.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  8. #6
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    Re: Where are the Russia Collusion Charges?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Is there something you want to say about this article? Because I don't see anything that points to a crime being committed by Stone or Trump prior to the start of Mueller's investigation.
    The article does not directly say anything about Trump but it does indicate that Stone did indeed collude.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Do you believe it is a crime "to get information from WikiLeaks"?
    Not in an of itself. But if the Russians attempt to interfere in a US election (which is illegal) and a US citizen help them with their efforts, such as using the stolen information they stole to help a candidate win, then they are indeed colluding with the Russians to interfere with the election.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    If so, then why wasn't Stone charged with that crime? Hmmm?
    Don't know why it hasn't happened YET. I assume you have a bunch of unsupported theories on the matter?

    But either way, I have supported that there is at least a good reason to believe that Stone was involved in collusion with the Russians. And to be clear, that doesn't mean that Trump is directly involved. It's not impossible that members of his campaign colluded without his direction or even knowledge. But this Stone story is certainly not a nothingburger when it comes to the issue of the Trump campaign's alleged collusion.

  9. #7
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    Re: Where are the Russia Collusion Charges?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    ... it does indicate that Stone did indeed collude.
    No, it does not. Collusion means working together. Where does anything say that Stone worked with Wikileaks or Russians, much less to do something illegal? You, like everyone else on the drooling, rabid Left, are imagining details that aren't in the indictments and saying things that aren't supported by the available information.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  10. #8
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    Re: Where are the Russia Collusion Charges?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    No, it does not. Collusion means working together. Where does anything say that Stone worked with Wikileaks or Russians, much less to do something illegal?

    "In an indictment unsealed Friday, the special counsel disclosed evidence that a top campaign official in 2016 dispatched Roger J. Stone, a longtime adviser to President Trump, to get information from WikiLeaks about the thousands of hacked Democratic emails. The effort began well after it was widely reported that Russian intelligence operatives were behind the theft, which was part of Moscow’s broad campaign to sabotage the 2016 president election."

    And as I already explained, what the Russians were doing was illegal and therefore any effort to help them is likewise illegal.


    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    You, like everyone else on the drooling, rabid Left, are imagining details that aren't in the indictments and saying things that aren't supported by the available information.
    "Drooling rabid left"? Can we debate like grown-ups and not hurl insults, please?

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  12. #9
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    Re: Where are the Russia Collusion Charges?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And as I already explained, what the Russians were doing was illegal and therefore any effort to help them is likewise illegal.
    Is there any evidence showing that anyone helped them? The indictments don't show any. Again, you're imagining that it is there. An effort to get information from Wikileaks is not collusion. It is not helping anyone in a collaborative way.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  13. #10
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    Re: Where are the Russia Collusion Charges?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Is there any evidence showing that anyone helped them? The indictments don't show any.
    I don't think indictments provide evidence. They just state what is alleged to have happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Again, you're imagining that it is there.
    You're imagining that I'm imagining that it is there. I never said there was.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    An effort to get information from Wikileaks is not collusion. It is not helping anyone in a collaborative way.
    It is if it's being obtained in order to help the Russians influence the election, which is what the indictment says:

    "WASHINGTON — The special counsel, Robert S. Mueller III, revealed on Friday the most direct link yet between the Trump campaign’s and WikiLeaks’ parallel efforts to use Democratic Party material stolen by Russians to damage the election campaign of Hillary Clinton."

  14. #11
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    Re: Where are the Russia Collusion Charges?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    to damage the election campaign of Hillary Clinton[/B]."
    [/I]
    It doesn't say "to help the Russians damage the election campaign of Hillary Clinton", does it? The Trump campaign wanted to damage the Clinton campaign. Yes. But that doesn't mean they were working with the Russians to do so. The fact that two groups had the same goal does not prove that they were working together to reach that goal.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  15. #12
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    Re: Where are the Russia Collusion Charges?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    It doesn't say "to help the Russians damage the election campaign of Hillary Clinton", does it?
    It does.

    "WASHINGTON — The special counsel, Robert S. Mueller III, revealed on Friday the most direct link yet between the Trump campaign’s and WikiLeaks’ parallel efforts to use Democratic Party material stolen by Russians to damage the election campaign of Hillary Clinton.

    In an indictment unsealed Friday, the special counsel disclosed evidence that a top campaign official in 2016 dispatched Roger J. Stone, a longtime adviser to President Trump, to get information from WikiLeaks about the thousands of hacked Democratic emails. The effort began well after it was widely reported that Russian intelligence operatives were behind the theft, which was part of Moscow’s broad campaign to sabotage the 2016 president election."


    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    The Trump campaign wanted to damage the Clinton campaign. Yes. But that doesn't mean they were working with the Russians to do so. The fact that two groups had the same goal does not prove that they were working together to reach that goal.
    The indictment says they worked together.

    First Russia hacked Democratic e-mails. Then Russia gave the e-mails to the Trump campaign, which accepted them.

  16. #13
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    Re: Where are the Russia Collusion Charges?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    It does.

    "WASHINGTON — The special counsel, Robert S. Mueller III, revealed on Friday the most direct link yet between the Trump campaign’s and WikiLeaks’ parallel efforts to use Democratic Party material stolen by Russians to damage the election campaign of Hillary Clinton.

    In an indictment unsealed Friday, the special counsel disclosed evidence that a top campaign official in 2016 dispatched Roger J. Stone, a longtime adviser to President Trump, to get information from WikiLeaks about the thousands of hacked Democratic emails. The effort began well after it was widely reported that Russian intelligence operatives were behind the theft, which was part of Moscow’s broad campaign to sabotage the 2016 president election."
    Parallel does not automatically mean working together. Dragsters move down the track in parallel, but are in a contest against each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    The indictment says they worked together.
    Where does it say that, specifically? Quote the text.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    First Russia hacked Democratic e-mails. Then Russia gave the e-mails to the Trump campaign, which accepted them.
    Where does the indictment say that the Trump campaign accepted them?

    And even if they did accept them, you haven't proven that it would be illegal. A Trump campaign effort to damage the Clinton campaign, which would be legal, wouldn't become illegal just because Russia was trying to do the same thing. And you haven't shown that even happened.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  17. #14
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    Re: Where are the Russia Collusion Charges?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Parallel does not automatically mean working together. Dragsters move down the track in parallel, but are in a contest against each other.
    To continue the analogy, when one hands the other a can of gas so the other can win the race, then they are working together.


    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Where does the indictment say that the Trump campaign accepted them?
    "a top campaign official in 2016 dispatched Roger J. Stone, a longtime adviser to President Trump, to get information from WikiLeaks about the thousands of hacked Democratic emails"

    He went to retrieve the information that the Russians stole.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    And even if they did accept them, you haven't proven that it would be illegal. A Trump campaign effort to damage the Clinton campaign, which would be legal, wouldn't become illegal just because Russia was trying to do the same thing. And you haven't shown that even happened.
    The Russian attempt to interfere in the campaign was illegal. To work with them in their goal is likewise illegal.

    The indictment indicates that it happened.

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  19. #15
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    Re: Where are the Russia Collusion Charges?

    From Jonathan Turley, the Shapiro Professor of Public Interest Law at George Washington University, printed in USA Today:


    "...The main issue however remains the lack of objectivity of the coverage of the indictment. Stone has featured prominently in theories seeking "smoking gun" evidence of collusion. There is nothing smoking in this indictment. There is no suggestion of involvement or knowledge by Stone in the hacking. Stone has suggested that he was a conduit of hacked information from Wikileaks but he later insisted that he was not actually speaking to Julian Assange and that he had no direct knowledge that Russians were responsible for the Democratic hackings. The indictment does not contradict that later account.

    The important thing is that, even if Stone and the campaign did seek the email information, it would not be a crime. The crime is the conspiracy to hack the email system. Campaigns often seek confidential information obtained by journalists, leakers, whistleblowers and others. Indeed, the Clinton campaign (while denying its role before the election) funded the Steele dossier investigation to dig up dirt on Trump, including dirt from Russian intelligence figures. Even if Stone implicated Trump in seeking the information, it would merely establish the type of dirty politics that Stone expressly embraced as his curious calling and talent. ..."

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/opini...mn/2678017002/
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  20. #16
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    Re: Where are the Russia Collusion Charges?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    The important thing is that, even if Stone and the campaign did seek the email information, it would not be a crime. The crime is the conspiracy to hack the email system.
    That is ONE crime.

    Another crime is for a foreign power to interfere in US elections. So yes, hacking is a crime. It is also a crime for a foreign government to use that hacked information to influence a US election and it's a crime for anyone to assist that foreign government in such efforts. And the indictment says Stone did just that.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Campaigns often seek confidential information obtained by journalists, leakers, whistleblowers and others. Indeed, the Clinton campaign (while denying its role before the election) funded the Steele dossier investigation to dig up dirt on Trump, including dirt from Russian intelligence figures. Even if Stone implicated Trump in seeking the information, it would merely establish the type of dirty politics that Stone expressly embraced as his curious calling and talent. ..."
    This is dodging the main issue.

    Russia committed a crime against the US. Any US citizen who aided Russia in this crime has colluded in a foreign criminal scheme. The fact that this particular crime resembles common political actions that aren't necessarily criminal does not change that.

  21. #17
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    Re: Where are the Russia Collusion Charges?

    There has been no evidence shown that Stone assisted Russia, despite your attempts to portray it that way. You’re just wrong.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  22. #18
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    Re: Where are the Russia Collusion Charges?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    There has been no evidence shown that Stone assisted Russia, despite your attempts to portray it that way. You’re just wrong.
    "WASHINGTON — The special counsel, Robert S. Mueller III, revealed on Friday the most direct link yet between the Trump campaign’s and WikiLeaks’ parallel efforts to use Democratic Party material stolen by Russians to damage the election campaign of Hillary Clinton.

    In an indictment unsealed Friday, the special counsel disclosed evidence that a top campaign official in 2016 dispatched Roger J. Stone, a longtime adviser to President Trump, to get information from WikiLeaks about the thousands of hacked Democratic emails. The effort began well after it was widely reported that Russian intelligence operatives were behind the theft, which was part of Moscow’s broad campaign to sabotage the 2016 president election."

    Russia stole the e-mails to be used against Clinton. Stone knowingly took those Russian-pilfered e-mail to use against Clinton.

    That is part 1 and part 2 of a Russian effort to sabotage the election. All parties involved committed a crime.

  23. #19
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    Re: Where are the Russia Collusion Charges?

    Repeating faulty analysis doesn’t make it correct.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  24. #20
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    Re: Where are the Russia Collusion Charges?

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    The collision would be when you participate in or encourage activities that are criminal in some way. Russian agents spending money in the US elections is illegal so if the trump campaign participated in that then they were committing a crime. Same goes for stealing emails or any other criminal activity.

    Hiring a foreign firm to do work on behalf of your campaign, so long as you are paying them a market price, is not illegal.
    Isn't working with foreign intelligence agents, or agents of foreign gov in order to produce material to damage a candidate for presidential election.. illegal?
    Isn't that what the firm did?

    I don't think that the above is so easily circumvented as "o we hired an outside firm to do that". That would be pretty incriminating. At least.. it seems to me.

    So I don't see the distinction you are making with the statement.


    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Another crime is for a foreign power to interfere in US elections.
    Isn't that what the dosier was? Russian intelligence agents information, accepted by one side, in an effort to effect the election?
    To serve man.

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