Welcome guest, is this your first visit? Create Account now to join.
  • Login:

Welcome to the Online Debate Network.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.

Results 1 to 12 of 12
  1. #1
    ODN's Crotchety Old Man

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Location, Location
    Posts
    9,638
    Post Thanks / Like

    The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM

    Traditional thinking is that, if you flatten out all the legal-social-economic barriers between the genders, you'll ultimately wind up with a gray goo of equality across the board - a non-binary utopia where equal numbers of men and woman occupy every area of society and everyone is equally capable for every thing in every way.

    This study seems to suggest that, in countries where these things are maximally flattened, the gap between men and women in the STEM fields increases.

    https://getpocket.com/explore/item/t...-women-in-stem

    Though their numbers are growing, only 27 percent of all students taking the AP Computer Science exam in the United States are female. The gender gap only grows worse from there: Just 18 percent of American computer-science college degrees go to women. This is in the United States, where many college men proudly describe themselves as “male feminists” and girls are taught they can be anything they want to be.

    Meanwhile, in Algeria, 41 percent of college graduates in the fields of science, technology, engineering, and math—or “STEM,” as it’s known—are female. There, employment discrimination against women is rife and women are often pressured to make amends with their abusive husbands.

    According to a report I covered a few years ago, Jordan, Qatar, and the United Arab Emirates were the only three countries in which boys are significantly less likely to feel comfortable working on math problems than girls are. In all of the other nations surveyed, girls were more likely to say they feel “helpless while performing a math problem.”

    So what explains the tendency for nations that have traditionally less gender equality to have more women in science and technology than their gender-progressive counterparts do?



    A scatterplot of countries based on their number of female STEM graduates and their Global Gender Gap Index
    Photo by: y-axis

    According to a new paper published in Psychological Science by the psychologists Gijsbert Stoet, at Leeds Beckett University, and David Geary, at the University of Missouri, it could have to do with the fact that women in countries with higher gender inequality are simply seeking the clearest possible path to financial freedom. And often, that path leads through STEM professions.

    The issue doesn’t appear to be girls’ aptitude for STEM professions. In looking at test scores across 67 countries and regions, Stoet and Geary found that girls performed about as well or better than boys did on science in most countries, and in almost all countries, girls would have been capable of college-level science and math classes if they had enrolled in them.

    But when it comes to their relative strengths, in almost all the countries—all except Romania and Lebanon—boys’ best subject was science, and girls’ was reading. (That is, even if an average girl was as good as an average boy at science, she was still likely to be even better at reading.) Across all countries, 24 percent of girls had science as their best subject, 25 percent of girls’ strength was math, and 51 percent excelled in reading. For boys, the percentages were 38 for science, 42 for math, and 20 for reading. And the more gender-equal the country, as measured by the World Economic Forum’s Global Gender Gap Index, the larger this gap between boys and girls in having science as their best subject. (The most gender-equal countries are the typical snowy utopias you hear about, like Sweden, Finland, and Iceland. Turkey and the United Arab Emirates rank among the least equal, according to the Global Gender Gap Index.)

    The gap in reading “is related at least in part to girls’ advantages in basic language abilities and a generally greater interest in reading; they read more and thus practice more,” Geary told me.

    What’s more, the countries that minted the most female college graduates in fields like science, engineering, or math were also some of the least gender-equal countries. They posit that this is because the countries that empower women also empower them, indirectly, to pick whatever career they’d enjoy most and be best at.

    “Countries with the highest gender equality tend to be welfare states,” they write, “with a high level of social security.” Meanwhile, less gender-equal countries tend to also have less social support for people who, for example, find themselves unemployed. Thus, the authors suggest, girls in those countries might be more inclined to choose STEM professions, since they offer a more certain financial future than, say, painting or writing.

    When the study authors looked at the “overall life satisfaction” rating of each country—a measure of economic opportunity and hardship—they found that gender-equal countries had more life satisfaction. The life-satisfaction ranking explained 35 percent of the variation between gender equality and women’s participation in STEM. That correlation echoes past research showing that the genders are actually more segregated by field of study in more economically developed places.

    The upshot of this research is neither especially feminist nor especially sad: It’s not that gender equality discourages girls from pursuing science. It’s that it allows them not to if they’re not interested.

    The findings will likely seem controversial, since the idea that men and women have different inherent abilities is often used as a reason, by some, to argue we should forget trying to recruit more women into the STEM fields. But, as the University of Wisconsin gender-studies professor Janet Shibley Hyde, who wasn’t involved with the study, put it to me, that’s not quite what’s happening here.

    “Some would say that the gender STEM gap occurs not because girls can’t do science, but because they have other alternatives, based on their strengths in verbal skills,” she said. “In wealthy nations, they believe that they have the freedom to pursue those alternatives and not worry so much that they pay less.”

    Instead, this line of research, if it’s replicated, might hold useful takeaways for people who do want to see more Western women entering STEM fields. In this study, the percentage of girls who did excel in science or math was still larger than the number of women who were graduating with STEM degrees. That means there’s something in even the most liberal societies that’s nudging women away from math and science, even when those are their best subjects. The women-in-STEM advocates could, for starters, focus their efforts on those would-be STEM stars.

    Then again, it could just be that, feeling financially secure and on equal footing with men, some women will always choose to follow their passions, rather than whatever labor economists recommend. And those passions don’t always lie within science.

    Discuss

  2. Thanks Squatch347 thanked for this post
  3. #2
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    8,888
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM

    Quote Originally Posted by DIO
    Traditional thinking is that, if you flatten out all the legal-social-economic barriers between the genders, you'll ultimately wind up with a gray goo of equality across the board - a non-binary utopia where equal numbers of men and woman occupy every area of society and everyone is equally capable for every thing in every way.
    Clearly it is because we still live in a patriarchal society. Fathers are not treating their daughters the same as their sons. This leads to developmental challenges for girls to be interested in the same way.
    For example, a father will take his son to a football game, where they watch the clock, examine the statistical data for each player, each team, each quarter ad nausea. Meanwhile the daughters are left with their barbies, or some other patriarchal tool of oppression designed to keep women in the kitchen with unrealistic expectations and the seeds of self view that revolves around pleasing the male sexual desires.

    The study clearly shows that the problem is much more deeply ingrained than simply tweaking our grants and loans programs. This starts at the family, and in the crib.

    I suggest we take drastic measures and start putting quotas and restrictions on the family and in our schools. Maybe the NFL should be forced to integrate women into the game, to help draw equal interest of the female population?


    Hmm.. I think I'm onto something here! Whatever the solution. It absolutely isn't that boys and girls are different.
    To serve man.

  4. #3
    Administrator

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Fairfax, VA
    Posts
    10,523
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM

    Well there are certainly a number of hypotheses one could draw from this. One would be that in those societies were things are "flattened" that women are more empowered to choose the field they want, and are more likely to not want to do STEM. There is certainly good evidence for natural predilections between males and females.

    I imagine though, that there is likely a common cause of some sort. Some might point to socialization, though I think that is overly simplistic. It could be that countries that have flattened access also have socialized education systems that tend to create a moral hazard that would tend to facilitate reductions in picking a harder STEM major. It is also likely that those subsidies would be the most geared towards women, and so would have a disproportionate effect on what women pick, major-wise.

    It would be interesting to see these data points shown in time series for each country to see how their relative numbers were changing.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  5. Likes CowboyX liked this post
  6. #4
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    West / East Coast
    Posts
    3,424
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Then again, it could just be that, feeling financially secure and on equal footing with men, some women will always choose to follow their passions, rather than whatever labor economists recommend. And those passions don’t always lie within science.
    I tend to agree with this idea. I think the number for women going into these fields, at least in our current society, will probably be smaller than men, not because women are not capable of being successful in holding these positions or because they are not trainable, but I think it’s because fundamentally most (not all, but most) female internal passions, interests and/or a calling she may have lies in different fields.
    Last edited by eye4magic; February 2nd, 2019 at 10:00 PM.
    Close your eyes. Fall in love. Stay there.
    Rumi

    [Eye4magic]
    Super Moderator
    ODN Rules

  7. #5
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    5,626
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Traditional thinking is that, if you flatten out all the legal-social-economic barriers between the genders, you'll ultimately wind up with a gray goo of equality across the board - a non-binary utopia where equal numbers of men and woman occupy every area of society and everyone is equally capable for every thing in every way.

    This study seems to suggest that, in countries where these things are maximally flattened, the gap between men and women in the STEM fields increases.

    https://getpocket.com/explore/item/t...-women-in-stem

    Though their numbers are growing, only 27 percent of all students taking the AP Computer Science exam in the United States are female. The gender gap only grows worse from there: Just 18 percent of American computer-science college degrees go to women. This is in the United States, where many college men proudly describe themselves as “male feminists” and girls are taught they can be anything they want to be.

    Meanwhile, in Algeria, 41 percent of college graduates in the fields of science, technology, engineering, and math—or “STEM,” as it’s known—are female. There, employment discrimination against women is rife and women are often pressured to make amends with their abusive husbands.

    According to a report I covered a few years ago, Jordan, Qatar, and the United Arab Emirates were the only three countries in which boys are significantly less likely to feel comfortable working on math problems than girls are. In all of the other nations surveyed, girls were more likely to say they feel “helpless while performing a math problem.”

    So what explains the tendency for nations that have traditionally less gender equality to have more women in science and technology than their gender-progressive counterparts do?



    A scatterplot of countries based on their number of female STEM graduates and their Global Gender Gap Index
    Photo by: y-axis

    According to a new paper published in Psychological Science by the psychologists Gijsbert Stoet, at Leeds Beckett University, and David Geary, at the University of Missouri, it could have to do with the fact that women in countries with higher gender inequality are simply seeking the clearest possible path to financial freedom. And often, that path leads through STEM professions.

    The issue doesn’t appear to be girls’ aptitude for STEM professions. In looking at test scores across 67 countries and regions, Stoet and Geary found that girls performed about as well or better than boys did on science in most countries, and in almost all countries, girls would have been capable of college-level science and math classes if they had enrolled in them.

    But when it comes to their relative strengths, in almost all the countries—all except Romania and Lebanon—boys’ best subject was science, and girls’ was reading. (That is, even if an average girl was as good as an average boy at science, she was still likely to be even better at reading.) Across all countries, 24 percent of girls had science as their best subject, 25 percent of girls’ strength was math, and 51 percent excelled in reading. For boys, the percentages were 38 for science, 42 for math, and 20 for reading. And the more gender-equal the country, as measured by the World Economic Forum’s Global Gender Gap Index, the larger this gap between boys and girls in having science as their best subject. (The most gender-equal countries are the typical snowy utopias you hear about, like Sweden, Finland, and Iceland. Turkey and the United Arab Emirates rank among the least equal, according to the Global Gender Gap Index.)

    The gap in reading “is related at least in part to girls’ advantages in basic language abilities and a generally greater interest in reading; they read more and thus practice more,” Geary told me.

    What’s more, the countries that minted the most female college graduates in fields like science, engineering, or math were also some of the least gender-equal countries. They posit that this is because the countries that empower women also empower them, indirectly, to pick whatever career they’d enjoy most and be best at.

    “Countries with the highest gender equality tend to be welfare states,” they write, “with a high level of social security.” Meanwhile, less gender-equal countries tend to also have less social support for people who, for example, find themselves unemployed. Thus, the authors suggest, girls in those countries might be more inclined to choose STEM professions, since they offer a more certain financial future than, say, painting or writing.

    When the study authors looked at the “overall life satisfaction” rating of each country—a measure of economic opportunity and hardship—they found that gender-equal countries had more life satisfaction. The life-satisfaction ranking explained 35 percent of the variation between gender equality and women’s participation in STEM. That correlation echoes past research showing that the genders are actually more segregated by field of study in more economically developed places.

    The upshot of this research is neither especially feminist nor especially sad: It’s not that gender equality discourages girls from pursuing science. It’s that it allows them not to if they’re not interested.

    The findings will likely seem controversial, since the idea that men and women have different inherent abilities is often used as a reason, by some, to argue we should forget trying to recruit more women into the STEM fields. But, as the University of Wisconsin gender-studies professor Janet Shibley Hyde, who wasn’t involved with the study, put it to me, that’s not quite what’s happening here.

    “Some would say that the gender STEM gap occurs not because girls can’t do science, but because they have other alternatives, based on their strengths in verbal skills,” she said. “In wealthy nations, they believe that they have the freedom to pursue those alternatives and not worry so much that they pay less.”

    Instead, this line of research, if it’s replicated, might hold useful takeaways for people who do want to see more Western women entering STEM fields. In this study, the percentage of girls who did excel in science or math was still larger than the number of women who were graduating with STEM degrees. That means there’s something in even the most liberal societies that’s nudging women away from math and science, even when those are their best subjects. The women-in-STEM advocates could, for starters, focus their efforts on those would-be STEM stars.

    Then again, it could just be that, feeling financially secure and on equal footing with men, some women will always choose to follow their passions, rather than whatever labor economists recommend. And those passions don’t always lie within science.

    Discuss
    Yeah sure, **** it.


    There's several takes on this. One of them is about women's aptitude or desire to get into STEM. I don't really care about the argument, because I think it's wrong on the face of it. I've had roughly as many female mentors in STEM as I have male, so it's hard for me to take any argument like this seriously.


    The next question is about the distribution of preferences between the genders. To that, I honestly can't say I'm compelled either way. It's fine and all to declare that Sweden has "equality" because there are "male feminists" and "girl power", but that doesn't really mean things are equal. Maybe people go into fields because that's what their friends and role models are, and maybe enough people are persuaded by this that these historical facts perpetuate even after they won't face repercussions or harassment for joining STEM. Or maybe the Peterson's of the world are correct and STEM is a very demanding field that leaves little time for a family, and so it dissuades women from joining.

    Personally, I don't really give a ****. If someone knows more about me in a topic I'm interested, I'll ask them questions. If I know more than they do and they're interested in discussing, then I'll mentor them. That's really what I care about.
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." --Voltaire

  8. #6
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    6,292
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldPhoenix View Post
    Yeah sure, **** it.


    There's several takes on this. One of them is about women's aptitude or desire to get into STEM. I don't really care about the argument, because I think it's wrong on the face of it. I've had roughly as many female mentors in STEM as I have male, so it's hard for me to take any argument like this seriously.


    The next question is about the distribution of preferences between the genders. To that, I honestly can't say I'm compelled either way. It's fine and all to declare that Sweden has "equality" because there are "male feminists" and "girl power", but that doesn't really mean things are equal. Maybe people go into fields because that's what their friends and role models are, and maybe enough people are persuaded by this that these historical facts perpetuate even after they won't face repercussions or harassment for joining STEM. Or maybe the Peterson's of the world are correct and STEM is a very demanding field that leaves little time for a family, and so it dissuades women from joining.

    Personally, I don't really give a ****. If someone knows more about me in a topic I'm interested, I'll ask them questions. If I know more than they do and they're interested in discussing, then I'll mentor them. That's really what I care about.
    I am not sure anyone is making an argument contrary to your sentiment. Rather, I think it is a point of interest and impact on public policy. First, if we desire to have more women in STEM fields and our approach is based on some idea that girls are being prevented from entering these fields, as opposed to, girls making rational choices based on their own self-interests, then we are probably not going to be successful. Second, maybe we want to concede that girls, making self-interested choices don't need coaxing to go into these fields at all. Girls who will be interested in STEM fields are participating and those who aren't participating are doing so because they feel they can do other things better or because other choices are a better fit for their own happiness.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  9. Likes Squatch347 liked this post
  10. #7
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    West / East Coast
    Posts
    3,424
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM

    This comment doesn't specifically apply to the gender issue, but it applies to getting more people (male and female) interested in academics -- Science, Technology, Engineering and Math. I find this to be an interesting correlation and that is ---- the early training of music, especially now when music programs have been cut from many schools:

    The neuroscientists used functional MRI brain imaging in their controlled study to reveal a possible biological link between early musical training and improved executive functioning. The study, "Behavioral and Neural Correlates of Executive Functioning in Musicians and Non-Musicians” was published online in the June 2014 journal PLOS ONE.

    Nadine Gaab, PhD, from the Laboratories of Cognitive Neuroscience at Boston Children's said in a press release, "Since executive functioning is a strong predictor of academic achievement, even more than IQ, we think our findings have strong educational implications." Adding, "While many schools are cutting music programs and spending more and more time on test preparation, our findings suggest that musical training may actually help to set up children for a better academic future.

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...ke-you-smarter
    Close your eyes. Fall in love. Stay there.
    Rumi

    [Eye4magic]
    Super Moderator
    ODN Rules

  11. #8
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    5,626
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    I am not sure anyone is making an argument contrary to your sentiment. Rather, I think it is a point of interest and impact on public policy.
    No, that wasn't lost on me.

    First, if we desire to have more women in STEM fields and our approach is based on some idea that girls are being prevented from entering these fields, as opposed to, girls making rational choices based on their own self-interests, then we are probably not going to be successful. Second, maybe we want to concede that girls, making self-interested choices don't need coaxing to go into these fields at all. Girls who will be interested in STEM fields are participating and those who aren't participating are doing so because they feel they can do other things better or because other choices are a better fit for their own happiness.
    That's what people like to say, but having actually practiced STEM for more than a decade and met probably 50 or 100 women in STEM that I've talked to or listened to, I can't think of a single one that wouldn't say that the culture of STEM hasn't been a deterrent for them. That doesn't mean they are tautologically right, but it does suggest there's more to dig the gender distribution than "women just don't like STEM." Like there's a lot to flesh out there. Culture is a real thing, and if there's a reason unrelated to excellence in STEM that women are leaving/not entering it, it's worth understanding why and what can be done. And until that has actually been quantified and accounted for, I'm not at all lazily walk into a conversation and assert like Jordan Peterson that this is all just due to women wanting families.
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." --Voltaire

  12. #9
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Seattle, Washington USA
    Posts
    7,314
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM

    What to do....

    I think at the government level
    #1. Ensure the state has no discrimination in law
    #2. Provide women with a means of redress if they are unfairly/arbitrarily discriminated against
    #3. Help with popular social policies that give women some measure of economic choice (credits for child care, maternity leave, etc...)

    At the social level
    #1. Try to be aware of discriminatory impulses and resist them whenever possible
    #2. Be encouraging of women to pursue worthy careers if they so desire
    #3. Be thoughtful of our social conventions and norms and if they are truly valuable or if they are destructive in some way

    At the individual level
    #1. Treat women with respect and the same deference you would give anyone else.

    How to measure...
    That is really hard. Opinion surveys vs outcome studies seems to be the best balance. Just one or the other leaves out an important part of the picture. I think the real question is whether women can find satisfaction in achieving their ambitions in live at a similar rate to men. If so, then the actual outcomes are less critical.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  13. #10
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    6,292
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldPhoenix View Post
    No, that wasn't lost on me.



    That's what people like to say, but having actually practiced STEM for more than a decade and met probably 50 or 100 women in STEM that I've talked to or listened to, I can't think of a single one that wouldn't say that the culture of STEM hasn't been a deterrent for them. That doesn't mean they are tautologically right, but it does suggest there's more to dig the gender distribution than "women just don't like STEM." Like there's a lot to flesh out there. Culture is a real thing, and if there's a reason unrelated to excellence in STEM that women are leaving/not entering it, it's worth understanding why and what can be done. And until that has actually been quantified and accounted for, I'm not at all lazily walk into a conversation and assert like Jordan Peterson that this is all just due to women wanting families.
    I don't just practice STEM, I play it in real life. :

    I think Peterson's views are a bit more complex than women just want families. However, I am not really asserting a point of view. Rather, I'm saying maybe we want to expand our views beyond the social justice view which has given women victim status. If the solutions all assume women would enter STEM if society would just accommodate them more and if the results aren't meeting our expectations, then maybe its time to check our premises.

    ---------- Post added at 02:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:41 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    What to do....

    I think at the government level
    #1. Ensure the state has no discrimination in law
    #2. Provide women with a means of redress if they are unfairly/arbitrarily discriminated against
    #3. Help with popular social policies that give women some measure of economic choice (credits for child care, maternity leave, etc...)

    At the social level
    #1. Try to be aware of discriminatory impulses and resist them whenever possible
    #2. Be encouraging of women to pursue worthy careers if they so desire
    #3. Be thoughtful of our social conventions and norms and if they are truly valuable or if they are destructive in some way

    At the individual level
    #1. Treat women with respect and the same deference you would give anyone else.

    How to measure...
    That is really hard. Opinion surveys vs outcome studies seems to be the best balance. Just one or the other leaves out an important part of the picture. I think the real question is whether women can find satisfaction in achieving their ambitions in live at a similar rate to men. If so, then the actual outcomes are less critical.
    Just to sort of latch on to my earlier posts, everything here assumes society and 'others' are the reason why women aren't entering STEM fields. For instance, are their laws at the state level which are discriminatory in a manner which may prevent women from entering STEM fields? Isn't our justice system already available for women who face discrimination? Isn't having a child, in some way, making a choice for a woman? Maybe we want to publicly assist mothers and fathers who have children. How would this specifically help women interested in STEM fields? Any career a woman may choose would be impacted by things like starting a family. So, I am not sure how it'd move the needle so to speak.

    At the societal level, are women prevented from STEM fields due to the impulses of others? Are woman so weak and frail that they cannot stand up against such impulses? Shouldn't we encourage ANYONE (man or woman) who we think shows an aptitude for a given career? I mean if a woman happens to be dumber than dirt and wants to enter a STEM field, I don't think I'd be a good friend if I encouraged her. Would I?

    I don't disagree with treating everyone with respect. I just question how much any of this stuff really prevents women from following their dreams as it relates to entering a STEM field.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  14. Likes Squatch347 liked this post
  15. #11
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    5,626
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    I don't just practice STEM, I play it in real life. :
    I like making money, so STEM is just fine for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd
    I think Peterson's views are a bit more complex than women just want families. However, I am not really asserting a point of view.
    I mean it's difficult to say because he's often not very clear, but he seems the most emphatic about that point.

    Rather, I'm saying maybe we want to expand our views beyond the social justice view which has given women victim status. If the solutions all assume women would enter STEM if society would just accommodate them more and if the results aren't meeting our expectations, then maybe its time to check our premises.
    Sure, I'd say we should return to our premises. But one of those premises is that "we're really accommodating women right now." I've been around humans too long to be swept into the idea that anyone has the magic bullet right now for dealing with very old, very entrenched cultures. And each field of STEM has very, very different cultures. The idea that Sweden just magically opened up the doors and shit is all okay now --it's just not credible to me.

    I do agree that woke culture is very monolithic and has become this massive ideology that's becoming more concerned with making money off of listicles, expressing outrage on Twitter, and personal opportunism than it has been concerned with many real-world problems. But just because you want to blow your brains out listening to some asshole who wants to read you a moral lesson on the most trivial, irrelevant subject on the planet --it doesn't mean that civil rights and social justice are irrelevant or nonsense. Or those real world problems not real.
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." --Voltaire

  16. #12
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Seattle, Washington USA
    Posts
    7,314
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Just to sort of latch on to my earlier posts, everything here assumes society and 'others' are the reason why women aren't entering STEM fields.
    That is a problem of perception.
    I think we both agree that women should be free to choose to enter Stem or not based on their personal preference.

    Thus any social action we take is focused on situations where someone else is limiting their choices.

    I just question how much any of this stuff really prevents women from following their dreams as it relates to entering a STEM field.
    There are many articles where women write about this topic. You can read those and find out how some of this stuff discourages women from entering or staying in STEM fields.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

 

 

Similar Threads

  1. Low Gas Prices or Equality?
    By robocop in forum Shootin' the Breeze / Off-Topic
    Replies: 83
    Last Post: April 29th, 2006, 08:05 PM
  2. Negation of equality
    By Meng Bomin in forum Test Forum
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: August 8th, 2005, 12:06 PM
  3. Darwin and equality
    By Montalban in forum Science and Technology
    Replies: 81
    Last Post: June 18th, 2005, 08:53 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •