Welcome guest, is this your first visit? Create Account now to join.
  • Login:

Welcome to the Online Debate Network.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.

Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 107
  1. #1
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    3,625
    Post Thanks / Like

    Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    allegiance
    Syllabification: al·le·giance
    Pronunciation: /əˈlējəns

    /
    noun

    loyalty or commitment of a subordinate to a superior or of an individual to a group or cause

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    We as a nation believe in government of the people, by the people, for the people. The government of The United States of America is not superior to the People. The People are not subordinate to the government. We do not owe the government or the flag our allegiance.

    I do not pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America. And neither should you.
    Last edited by evensaul; February 4th, 2014 at 01:17 PM.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  2. Likes PatriotDani91 liked this post
  3. #2
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Seattle, Washington USA
    Posts
    7,399
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Interesting perspective. I agree in the sense that I don't feel fealty to either the flag itself or the institution of government.

    I do however feel an allegiance to my fellow countrymen and the system of representative rule that is at the heart of how we built the government. And its not because I am told I must or out of "respect" or social pressure. I simply genuinely believe we are mostly a good nation of good people that are worth fighting for. The pledge is more a standard ritualized means to demonstrate such feelings.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  4. #3
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    641
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    allegiance
    Syllabification: al·le·giance
    Pronunciation: /əˈlējəns

    /
    noun

    loyalty or commitment of a subordinate to a superior or of an individual to a group or cause

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    We as a nation believe in government of the people, by the people, for the people. The government of The United States of America is not superior to the People. The People are not subordinate to the government. We do not owe the government or the flag our allegiance.

    I do not pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America. And neither should you.
    Yes the government is not superior to the people. As you pointed out it is the people. So you have no allegiance to other citizens, and refuse to pledge any loyalty. You and criminal cartel illegals have that in common. The people who come here to work, and get citizenship along with the majority of natural citizens disagree with you guys.

  5. #4
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    3,625
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie View Post
    Yes the government is not superior to the people. As you pointed out it is the people. So you have no allegiance to other citizens, and refuse to pledge any loyalty.
    Correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie View Post
    You and criminal cartel illegals have that in common.
    A meaningless comparison.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie View Post
    The people who come here to work, and get citizenship...
    Whether immigrants think differently is irrelevant to the op, but if you want to make the case that it is relevant, you need to explain how those immigrants are authorities on the subject, to provide reason for me to respect their opinions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie View Post
    ...along with the majority of natural citizens disagree with you guys.
    Arguing "with the majority" is a logical fallacy:

    In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes a proposition to be true because many or most people believe it. In other words, the basic idea of the argument is: "If many believe so, it is so."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum


    ---------- Post added at 04:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:48 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Interesting perspective. I agree in the sense that I don't feel fealty to either the flag itself or the institution of government.
    It's been a while since we have agreed on anything. There may be hope for one of us.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    I do however feel an allegiance to my fellow countrymen and the system of representative rule that is at the heart of how we built the government. And its not because I am told I must or out of "respect" or social pressure. I simply genuinely believe we are mostly a good nation of good people that are worth fighting for. The pledge is more a standard ritualized means to demonstrate such feelings.
    Then your perception does not match reality, Sigfried. It's like you're walking out to a cloudy day and saying "I like this sunshine!" The pledge as written does not speak of allegiance to countrymen or how the government was built. It states fealty and subordination to the federal government as represented by the flag. It was written after the civil war by a socialist who wanted to inspire loyalty to the united and "indivisible" government. You are adding emotions and thoughts not meant to be included, and ignoring the meaning of the words actually present, along with their historical context.
    Last edited by evensaul; February 4th, 2014 at 03:28 PM.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  6. #5
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    641
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Correct.

    A meaningless comparison.

    Whether immigrants think differently is irrelevant to the op.

    Arguing "with the majority" is a logical fallacy:

    In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes a proposition to be true because many or most people believe it. In other words, the basic idea of the argument is: "If many believe so, it is so."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

    I wasn't aware this was a debate. As such logical fallacies are irrelevant.

    The free citizens of the United States have a common history of banding together in loyalty to one another despite, race, sex, religion, and national origin. Yes it is a logical fallacy in a debate to point out that the vast majority of citizens do this and believe in it. It is also a logical fallacy in a debate to point out those that don't, like yourself, are often criminal aliens, foreign spies or provocateurs and traitors.

  7. #6
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    3,625
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie View Post
    I wasn't aware this was a debate. As such logical fallacies are irrelevant.

    The free citizens of the United States have a common history of banding together in loyalty to one another despite, race, sex, religion, and national origin. Yes it is a logical fallacy in a debate to point out that the vast majority of citizens do this and believe in it. It is also a logical fallacy in a debate to point out those that don't, like yourself, are often criminal aliens, foreign spies or provocateurs and traitors.
    It is a debate thread, in a debate forum, on a debate website.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  8. #7
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    641
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    It is a debate thread, in a debate forum, on a debate website.
    I am sorry I did go back and re read the OP. There is a neither should you at the end. That makes it a debate. I thought you were just stating that you didn't pledge allegiance to the flag.

    In that event I stand by my logical fallacies in the hopes of simple persuasion in the debate. Those that have a desire to be free will band together for concepts of justice, freedom, equality, and patriotism. I have had no problem pledging my allegiance to these ideals, and no U.S. citizen or anyone wishing to become one should have any problem with it. So I pledged allegiance and so should you.

  9. #8
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    3,625
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie View Post
    Those that have a desire to be free will band together for concepts of justice, freedom, equality, and patriotism.
    Those educated on government atrocities against citizens, who have a desire to remain free, do not foolishly pledge loyalty to their government.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  10. #9
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    641
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Those educated on government atrocities against citizens, who have a desire to remain free, do not foolishly pledge loyalty to their government.
    tiv

    Sure we do. When we are the government. We the people. United we Stand. If you don't want to pledge allegiance that is your choice. I just know who doesn't right along with you. Those who wish to not take part in the country. In society. Some are hermits some take a more active preparing for the end of the world route or other violent future of revolution.

    Some are Amish or Jehovah witness. or Other religion.

    I am just saying. The right wing will lose the conservative when they start with the I don't pledge allegiance.

  11. #10
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    3,625
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie View Post
    Sure we do. When we are the government. We the people. United we Stand.
    When you are asked to stand and pledge allegiance, you are an individual, even if in a crowd. As an individual, you are not the government. It wouldn't make sense to pledge allegiance to yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie View Post
    If you don't want to pledge allegiance that is your choice. I just know who doesn't right along with you. Those who wish to not take part in the country. In society. Some are hermits some take a more active preparing for the end of the world route or other violent future of revolution. Some are Amish or Jehovah witness. or Other religion.
    Association fallacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie View Post
    I am just saying...
    ...nothing of consequence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie View Post
    The right wing will lose the conservative when they start with the I don't pledge allegiance.
    Red Herring, irrelevant to the op.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  12. #11
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    2,786
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    The flag represents the government?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  13. #12
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    3,625
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    The flag represents the government?
    "...and to the republic for which it stands..."

    A republic is a form of government.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  14. #13
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    West / East Coast
    Posts
    3,512
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    I think the Boy Scouts have a nice translation for each part of the Pledge of Allegiance.

    I pledge allegiance… you promise to be loyal

    to the Flag… to the symbol of your country

    of the United States of America… a nation of 50 states and several territories, each with certain rights of its own

    and to the Republic… a country where the people elect representatives from among themselves to make laws for everyone

    for which it stands,… the flag represents the values of our form of government, in which everyone is equal under the law

    one Nation under God,… a country formed under God whose people are free to believe as they wish

    indivisible,… the nation cannot be split into parts

    with liberty and justice… with freedom and a system of law

    for all… for every person in the nation, regardless of their differences


    http://www.itstactical.com/centcom/m...egiance-means/

    The old-time comedian Red Skelton also had a nice translation of the pledge:
    Last edited by eye4magic; February 4th, 2014 at 09:52 PM.
    "The universe is immaterial-mental and spiritual.” --"The Mental Universe” | Nature
    [Eye4magic]
    Super Moderator

  15. #14
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    2,786
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    "...and to the republic for which it stands..."

    A republic is a form of government.

    World English Dictionary
    republic (rɪˈpʌblɪk)

    — n
    1. a form of government in which the people or their elected representatives possess the supreme power
    2. a political or national unit possessing such a form of government
    3. a constitutional form in which the head of state is an elected or nominated president
    4. any community or group that resembles a political republic in that its members or elements exhibit a general equality, shared interests, etc: the republic of letters

    [C17: from French république , from Latin rēspublica literally: the public thing, from rēs thing + publica public ]

    dictionary.com

    (it's #2)
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  16. #15
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    3,625
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    eye4magic and CowboyX, are either of those posts meant to contain a rebuttal or an argument that needs response? If so, please restate and elaborate on your point, because I'm not seeing it.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  17. #16
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    2,786
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    I was just asking a question for clarification, which I received.

    The mistake here is confusing the government with our nation. Two different things.

    Conservatives do this at other times too. For example, confusing our military with our government. Again, two different things. The military is a tool of our government.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  18. #17
    Banned Indefinitely

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Southern California, USA
    Posts
    2,018
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    allegiance
    Syllabification: al·le·giance
    Pronunciation: /əˈlējəns

    /
    noun

    loyalty or commitment of a subordinate to a superior or of an individual to a group or cause

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    We as a nation believe in government of the people, by the people, for the people. The government of The United States of America is not superior to the People. The People are not subordinate to the government. We do not owe the government or the flag our allegiance.

    I do not pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America. And neither should you.
    I don't even agree with the half of the meaning of the word this position rests upon.

    First, taking the part of the definition you didn't use, allegiance is to the will of the American people, ie., "to...a group or cause", not to our government. Re-read the Declaration of Independence, for you seem to have forgotten it.

    Secondly, and to the part of the definition you've apparently decided to us to the ignoring of all else, unless our national government has come and told you that you can no longer vote to send representatives of your free choosing to the national Congress, and can no longer vote for the candidate of your choice for president, what you've got is government by the people and for the people, and your gripe is with the people's will, not the government. And, of course, the same goes for state legislatures and governors. If you simply don't like what the people want, then of course you are free to try and change the will of the people to be more like your own, but what you're advocating here is anarchy, where men hold allegiance only to themselves.

  19. #18
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    3,625
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I was just asking a question for clarification, which I received.

    The mistake here is confusing the government with our nation. Two different things.

    Conservatives do this at other times too. For example, confusing our military with our government. Again, two different things. The military is a tool of our government.
    This is from a different reference source on the definition of allegiance:

    1 a : the obligation of a feudal vassal to his liege lord b (1) : the fidelity owed by a subject or citizen to a sovereign or government (2) : the obligation of an alien to the government under which the alien resides
    2 : devotion or loyalty to a person, group, or cause
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/allegiance

    Note that allegiance is not owed to a country, but towards the individual sovereign or government ruling the country. In countries with monarchs, allegiance is sworn to the King or Queen, not to the country. Given that, use of the word republic does not mean country, but government.

    ---------- Post added at 03:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:19 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by cstamford View Post
    I don't even agree with the half of the meaning of the word this position rests upon.

    First, taking the part of the definition you didn't use, allegiance is to the will of the American people, ie., "to...a group or cause", not to our government. Re-read the Declaration of Independence, for you seem to have forgotten it.

    Secondly, and to the part of the definition you've apparently decided to us to the ignoring of all else, unless our national government has come and told you that you can no longer vote to send representatives of your free choosing to the national Congress, and can no longer vote for the candidate of your choice for president, what you've got is government by the people and for the people, and your gripe is with the people's will, not the government. And, of course, the same goes for state legislatures and governors. If you simply don't like what the people want, then of course you are free to try and change the will of the people to be more like your own, but what you're advocating here is anarchy, where men hold allegiance only to themselves.
    "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government..."

    Our loyalty should be to the unalienable rights, including Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness, and not to the government created to secure them, so that when the government fails to protect or unduly infringes on those rights, the citizens may freely replace it with a new government.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  20. #19
    Banned Indefinitely

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Southern California, USA
    Posts
    2,018
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government..."
    Our loyalty should be to the unalienable rights, including Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness, and not to the government created to secure them, so that when the government fails to protect or unduly infringes on those rights, the citizens may freely replace it with a new government.
    There is no such thing as "the government" beyond our Constitution when the question is should or shouldn't we pledge it our allegiance.

    Look, there is what the government is, which we find in our Constitution, and then there is what it does, which we find in our newspapers. When just about every American pledges allegiance to the flag, and to the Republic for which it stands, they are not pledging fidelity to what they read in the newspapers. They are pledging fidelity to what they read in the Constitution.

  21. #20
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    2,786
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    This is from a different reference source on the definition of allegiance:

    1 a : the obligation of a feudal vassal to his liege lord b (1) : the fidelity owed by a subject or citizen to a sovereign or government (2) : the obligation of an alien to the government under which the alien resides
    2 : devotion or loyalty to a person, group, or cause
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/allegiance

    Note that allegiance is not owed to a country, but towards the individual sovereign or government ruling the country. In countries with monarchs, allegiance is sworn to the King or Queen, not to the country. Given that, use of the word republic does not mean country, but government.

    It is the flag of the United States, not the flag of the United States government. Look at you second definition. It is the group or cause you are pledging loyalty to.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

 

 
Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. U.S.,Korea Pledge Forex Cooperation
    By plumcandy in forum Member Contributed News
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: October 13th, 2011, 10:51 PM
  2. A post election pledge
    By starcreator in forum Politics
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: December 6th, 2006, 02:57 PM
  3. Replies: 83
    Last Post: November 18th, 2005, 08:16 PM
  4. 'Under God" in Pledge
    By sbgtfJC in forum Social Issues
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: January 31st, 2005, 04:51 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •