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  1. #321
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    Re: The soul does not exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    As long as faith is required you are not aware if something is true or not by definition...
    I don’t think experiencing truth is about a definition. The confines of human language has its limits. It’s about knowing the truth when you experience it. The human condition does allow us to experience things that are simply beyond the limits of language and definitions.

    Hmmm, ok, then tell me:
    When someone dies where do they go?
    I don’t hold a traditional view about death. I embrace the concept of reincarnation. So as far as: where do we go when we die….? I think it depends on different factors.

    When the human is "here" its existence is certainly not relative at all. It exists or it does not. The time frame matters not at all to existence...
    In the context of the universe, which we are part of, our little dot is relative to who is observing it from a vast array of galaxies.

    Bear in mind there is no absolute: Einstein taught us: “The theory is deceptively simple. First, there is no "absolute" frame of reference. Every time you measure an object's velocity, or its momentum, or how it experiences time, it's always in relation to something else.”

    So people can only have their "free will overridden" if they "grant it" is completely at odds with your comment a post ago that humans free will:
    " can be manipulated and controlled by forces overtaking his/her free will? Yes, I think this is possible."

    How do you reconcile this discrepancy?
    When people become possessed, I’m sure they do not willfully invite their demons. However, that doesn’t mean they were not predisposed and vulnerable to the circumstance and need help. Something in their history, something in their past directly or indirectly created the vulnerability

    Do the things all these other "creatures" you speak of can do. IOW, why are they granted powers over humans, that humans cannot attain?
    Who says some humans don’t have this power? I think in our current culture, some people call this the practice of witchcraft and Satanism.

    God granted/allowed it or it would not be would it?
    God gave man dominion over the earth and this includes the power to empower evil or starve it.

    They can "enter our world" at the pleasure of God unless you are claiming He did not realize "demons" could do this when He made the universe?
    They affect our world because many humans are an easy meal ticket.




    That the Devil does not die is at God's pleasure not mans.
    I might note here that, for a person who does not believe in God, you seem to have some rather firm views about God’s nature.

    With that said, the devil is already dead – dead to the light. That’s really the only kind of death there is.

    Why does God allow the devil to have "power in our life" at al?.
    God allows us to make that choice because we chose to get entangled with the devil. Consider also that we’ve been gifted with the power of reason and introspection. Then, of course, there’s the Spirit

    Now sure, free will and all, but people don't need the Devil to "sin".
    The Devil could die and people would still sin would they not?
    Why does my "free will" keep the Devil alive and not my Grandma?
    Again, I tend to observe life in terms of energy. Perhaps because energy cannot be created or destroyed. Thus, the energy that we choose to qualify with hatred, envy, lust, greed, pride, murder, jealousy, slothfulness, etc – all that darkness (energy we have stamped with our junk) has to go to some type of contamination tank.

    You don't want to talk about it with me anymore??
    That is a Bible quote.
    Last edited by eye4magic; July 3rd, 2019 at 07:20 PM.
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  2. #322
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    Re: The soul does not exist

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    I don’t think experiencing truth is about a definition. The confines of human language has its limits. It’s about knowing the truth when you experience it. The human condition does allow us to experience things that are simply beyond the limits of language and definitions.
    Agreed but does not address my point:

    if faith is required that means you do not know or faith would not be required. It has nothing to do with definitions.


    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    I don’t hold a traditional view about death. I embrace the concept of reincarnation. So as far as: where do we go when we die….? I think it depends on different factors.
    Sorry, I thought you were Christian given your take on the Bible. May I ask your belief system so I don't argue against that which you do not believe.


    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    In the context of the universe, which we are part of, our little dot is relative to who is observing it from a vast array of galaxies.
    Negative. No matter where we are being observed from or by whom, Earth's existence is not relative at all in any way that I can think of...


    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Bear in mind there is no absolute: Einstein taught us: “The theory is deceptively simple. First, there is no "absolute" frame of reference. Every time you measure an object's velocity, or its momentum, or how it experiences time, it's always in relation to something else.”

    Those are two very different, unrelated points.
    1. There are absolutes. You mentioned a while back "energy couldn't be destroyed", that is an absolute. You absolutely exist or you do not, there are no other possibilities..
    2. Yes, if you want to measure the velocity of an object, you have to establish in relation to what since the whole universe is moving. This is no way shows existence is relative to anything.


    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    When people become possessed, I’m sure they do not willfully invite their demons. However, that doesn’t mean they were not predisposed and vulnerable to the circumstance and need help. Something in their history, something in their past directly or indirectly created the vulnerability
    What it means is, demons have supernatural powers (granted by God) to override human freewill.


    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Who says some humans don’t have this power? I think in our current culture, some people call this the practice of witchcraft and Satanism.
    At the moment,
    Belthazor, the source of all evil says so!
    (though that is obviously an opinion, but the opinion of one powerful demon none the less)
    Perhaps there are reasons to believe this is possible but in these days of the internet there sure seems to be a great lacking of evidence to think it is likely so.


    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    God gave man dominion over the earth and this includes the power to empower evil or starve it.
    I'm going to have to say no to that, but at the moment would invoke the Bible and I am still curious what your belief system is before I go there.


    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    They affect our world because many humans are an easy meal ticket.
    They are allowed to "affect" our universe because God gave them the power to do so. That humans are so frail/sinful/etc is all the more reason to not grant demons these supernatural powers over human freewill.


    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    I might note here that, for a person who does not believe in God, you seem to have some rather firm views about God’s nature.
    I am considering the Christian point of view because I thought you were arguing it's truth but more importantly
    why do you think I am an atheist
    because I don't think I have ever said "no god exists" anywhere/anytime and certainly not in this thread?


    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    With that said, the devil is already dead – dead to the light. That’s really the only kind of death there is.
    Yet he gets to "torture" every generation of humans and keep some of them from the light because he does not die and is allowed to do this at God's pleasure.
    (I find the Jewish take on the Devil being an angel working under God's orders a bit more intuitive since in the Bible God and the devil talk a lot).
    So the devil is certainly not dead from the human perspective and this matters a great deal...

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    God allows us to make that choice because we chose to get entangled with the devil. Consider also that we’ve been gifted with the power of reason and introspection. Then, of course, there’s the Spirit
    I more meant why is the devil granted supernatural powers to further his goals (and at the same time get human souls to sin) that humans do not have access to?



    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Again, I tend to observe life in terms of energy. Perhaps because energy cannot be created or destroyed. Thus, the energy that we choose to qualify with hatred, envy, lust, greed, pride, murder, jealousy, slothfulness, etc – all that darkness (energy we have stamped with our junk) has to go to some type of contamination tank.
    This does not answer at all "Why does my "free will" keep the Devil alive and not my Grandma?" or I am just totally not getting this point???

    How does energy know/convey a human emotion like hatred?
    If all the "dark energy" is in a "containment tank" why do we see it all around us (or are we in the tank?)?


    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    That is a Bible quote.
    Ah, since you just made the quote with no other commentary I just assumed what you meant
    Last edited by Belthazor; July 6th, 2019 at 04:40 PM.

  3. #323
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    Re: The soul does not exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    if faith is required that means you do not know or faith would not be required. It has nothing to do with definitions.
    We crawl before we walk, there’s a reason for that. We learn the alphabet before we can spell, read or write. Faith is an important building block toward the process of knowing and trusting God.


    Sorry, I thought you were Christian given your take on the Bible. May I ask your belief system
    Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior.

    BTW, you brought in the Bible to this discussion in post 305 when you tried to make the point that most people don't understand it.

    Negative. No matter where we are being observed from or by whom, Earth's existence is not relative at all in any way that I can think of...
    Your opinion is noted. The Observer Effect theory has a different take on this.


    What it means is, demons have supernatural powers (granted by God) to override human free will.

    At the moment,
    Belthazor, the source of all evil says so!
    (though that is obviously an opinion, but the opinion of one powerful demon none the less)
    Perhaps there are reasons to believe this is possible but in these days of the internet there sure seems to be a great lacking of evidence to think it is likely so.


    They are allowed to "affect" our universe because God gave them the power to do so. That humans are so frail/sinful/etc is all the more reason to not grant demons these supernatural powers over human free will.

    Yet he gets to "torture" every generation of humans and keep some of them from the light because he does not die and is allowed to do this at God's pleasure.

    Do you believe in demons? If so, why? What evidence is there of the existence of demons in our world? Just because I stated I believe in this, why do you believe in demons?


    because I don't think I have ever said "no god exists" anywhere/anytime and certainly not in this thread?
    I understand you’re searching and trying to figure out a reason to believe:
    Bel: “Also, it changes nothing in the present, still no reason to believe...”

    My point in my previous comment is that you seem to have some very strong views about God’s nature, especially regarding devils for someone who is trying to figure out what to believe.

    This does not answer at all "Why does my "free will" keep the Devil alive and not my Grandma?" or I am just totally not getting this point???
    Our free will does not empower the devil. Our choice to let our carnal mind rule the day empowers it.

    How does energy know/convey a human emotion like hatred?
    Probably by frequency.

    If all the "dark energy" is in a "containment tank" why do we see it all around us
    Perhaps because we’ve contributed toward creating it. Perhaps because our thoughts and actions keep enough of it around to experience with our senses. This goes back to the notion that we were initially talking about, we create our reality. The good news is that we can change our environment and stop feeding the contamination tank. It starts with our thoughts. Energy follows thought.
    "The universe is immaterial-mental and spiritual.” --"The Mental Universe” | Nature
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  4. #324
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    Re: The soul does not exist

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    We crawl before we walk, there’s a reason for that. We learn the alphabet before we can spell, read or write. Faith is an important building block toward the process of knowing and trusting God.
    Perhaps, but you only hope/believe it is this way, and this hope/belief is based on faith not anything you know to be true.

    How can a proper foundation of belief start with such frail conjecture?


    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior.
    Then you do consider yourself Christian, I'm confused?
    How are you getting anything in the Bible to support reincarnation?


    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    BTW, you brought in the Bible to this discussion in post 305 when you tried to make the point that most people don't understand it.
    Seemed apropos, most theists here consider themselves Christian and we need to get the idea of a soul from somewhere as there is no evidence/reason to believe such a thing exists. This in and of itself is odd, why would we be a soul "trapped in a human body", yet unaware of it? IOW, if no one had ever spoken to you about such an idea, you would have no other reason to consider it a possibility.

    And most people don't understand the Bible or they wouldn't be able to pick and choose there beliefs and still say their Christian belief is based on the Bible.
    It is incredibly common for Christians, confronted with some sticky point in the Bible that is hard to explain, to just say something like "well I think that is not what was meant" or "I think that was a metaphor, not literal" or "if we go back to the original Hebrew it was written in, it actually says".
    Sooooo many conflicting views of what the Bible is actually trying to say then goes to something like:
    "well, maybe the particulars are different, but the core beliefs are the same, that is what is important".

    The particulars are important though, actually very important, since the foundation for belief is faith (that you are correct).
    Just not very satisfying stuff for me to form a belief....


    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Your opinion is noted. The Observer Effect theory has a different take on this.
    The problem here is, you seem to be saying "observing" = "a person looking at something" and this is not the case with the observer effect.
    The observer effect is based on things like a photon behaving like a wave and a particle based on our "observation". Problem is, we can't see a photon so we use instruments to "see" them for us. These instruments affect particle behavior.
    This is like saying we want to see how fast a car is going so we put a concrete block in front of it, then measure the force the car hits with to determine it's speed and mass and then being surprised the concrete block "affected" the car. Hardly surprising.

    Even if some one looking at Earth from another galaxy affected it, that still would not make Earths existence relative at all...



    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Do you believe in demons? If so, why? What evidence is there of the existence of demons in our world? Just because I stated I believe in this, why do you believe in demons?
    I'm sorry, my sense of humor probably needs pointing out when I am talking with some one who doesn't know me well.
    Beltazor is a character who is a powerful demon/source of all Evil, that is part human, part demon. The human half desiring to do good things, the demon half trying to do bad things.
    So I meant I as Belt, the Source, would know about all evil doings.
    "Belthazor go for joke, no get"

    To answer your question though, I see no evidence nor reason to believe in Demons/anything else supernatural other than some people do which would be a weak foundation indeed for belief...


    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    My point in my previous comment is that you seem to have some very strong views about God’s nature, especially regarding devils for someone who is trying to figure out what to believe.
    Again, I was forwarding the Christian perspective as I understand it, not my own personal take on God.

    I don't have a personal take on God, cause God and I have yet to talk/communicate in a clearly understandable way.

    I also would say I personally can not reconcile what I can see/know, with what is described by Christian, Jewish, Muslim faiths.


    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Our free will does not empower the devil. Our choice to let our carnal mind rule the day empowers it.
    Ok, how does " Our choice to let our carnal mind rule the day empowers it." keep the Devil alive but not my grandma then,
    which was/is still my question...


    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Probably by frequency.
    Certain energy "frequencies" are inherently "Evil"?



    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Perhaps because we’ve contributed toward creating it. Perhaps because our thoughts and actions keep enough of it around to experience with our senses. This goes back to the notion that we were initially talking about, we create our reality. The good news is that we can change our environment and stop feeding the contamination tank. It starts with our thoughts. Energy follows thought.

    There is a universe of difference between "we create our reality" and "we can change our environment"

    The former, you have yet to support in any meaningful way that this is even possible, let alone a given.
    The latter is obvious, of course we can affect our environment a great deal, but Earth is still Earth in your "reality" or mine, nothing relative about it's existence at all....
    Last edited by Belthazor; July 10th, 2019 at 10:04 AM.

  5. #325
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    Re: The soul does not exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Perhaps, but you only hope/believe it is this way, and this hope/belief is based on faith not anything you know to be true.
    As I stated earlier, I think when you’re ready, this will happen.

    Then you do consider yourself Christian, I'm confused?
    This thread is not about my personal faith.

    Seemed apropos, most theists here consider themselves Christian and we need to get the idea of a soul
    I trust you are aware that other religions besides Christianity believe and accept the concept of the soul.


    The problem here is, you seem to be saying "observing" = "a person looking at something" and this is not the case with the observer effect.
    Sorry, I was having a discussion with another person, got mixed up and I did not mean to bring in the observer effect to your response.

    Even if someone looking at Earth from another galaxy affected it, that still would not make Earths existence relative at all...
    A different galaxy with a different possible reality…. A hypothetical: at 4 p.m, July 07, 2019, L.A. California time one mind in Galaxy A is observing Josh on a San Diego beach who is 4 years old. At the same exact earth time and date, a different mind from Galaxy B with a possible different reality is observing the same Josh. However, they observe Josh who is 87 years old in a nursing home.

    Bear in mind, physicists see time as an illusion.


    To answer your question though, I see no evidence nor reason to believe in Demons/anything else supernatural
    That’s what I thought. I was willing to play for a little while. If you want to challenge the concept of demons, you are free to start a thread on the subject.


    The latter is obvious, of course we can affect our environment a great deal,
    For many people, their immediate environment shapes their personal reality.

    Definition: Reality: the quality or state of being real

    Take for example, the young teenager who is a slave to a child prostitution group. Let’s say for Natashi, in a small village in Africa, her environment is dark, sexually abusive, repressive, restrictive and long-suffering. That’s not only her environment, but that’s also her reality; that’s all she knows, lives, breathes and endures.

    Many years ago I met a woman who lived in such a reality but worse. Her personal beliefs and thoughts over the course of several years eventually brought about circumstances that plucked her out of that reality and inserted her into a very different unabusive reality. This raises the question: If our thoughts and beliefs can change our reality, why could not all the other girls in her slave camp also have thought and believed themselves out of such a horrible reality? One possible reason is that most of the other girls, at least in her prostitution camp, thought she was crazy to even think and believe she could live any other way. They used to tell her to just adapt and accept her given reality or she would be killed. She didn’t accept that.

    How’s the rice experiment going?
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  6. #326
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    Re: The soul does not exist

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    As I stated earlier, I think when you’re ready, this will happen.
    In my case it won't happen on faith I don't think...


    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    This thread is not about my personal faith.
    Well, it kinda is, since you are a theist, how/why you came to believe, is very relevant to the discussion as it puts your comments in context, but I don't want you to be uncomfortable.


    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    I trust you are aware that other religions besides Christianity believe and accept the concept of the soul.
    True, but I didn't really expect you to explain Jewish belief of you weren't Jewish.
    Besides you don't believe Judaism is correct so why would we talk about it in this context (or any other religion you believe is incorrect)?



    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Sorry, I was having a discussion with another person, got mixed up and I did not mean to bring in the observer effect to your response.
    Ok

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    A different galaxy with a different possible reality…. A hypothetical: at 4 p.m, July 07, 2019, L.A. California time one mind in Galaxy A is observing Josh on a San Diego beach who is 4 years old. At the same exact earth time and date, a different mind from Galaxy B with a possible different reality is observing the same Josh. However, they observe Josh who is 87 years old in a nursing home.

    Bear in mind, physicists see time as an illusion.
    If we are still talking about it being "4p.m., July 7, 2019" on Earth, then if the observers from both galaxy A and B could travel instantaneously to Earth, they would see the same "Josh".
    That it takes time for light to travel long distances is not surprising in the least.

    There is still nothing at all relative about whether "Josh" exists or not from any observer from any point in the universe.



    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    That’s what I thought. I was willing to play for a little while. If you want to challenge the concept of demons, you are free to start a thread on the subject.
    Odd comment?
    Is there anything supernatural that you know of we can discuss?


    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    For many people, their immediate environment shapes their personal reality.

    Definition: Reality: the quality or state of being real
    I think we have a disconnect here on the definition of reality


    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Take for example, the young teenager who is a slave to a child prostitution group. Let’s say for Natashi, in a small village in Africa, her environment is dark, sexually abusive, repressive, restrictive and long-suffering. That’s not only her environment, but that’s also her reality;...…..)
    Hmmm, I see I think. When I speak of reality I am thinking of what we can see, know, feel/touch.
    If I hit my head with a rock, it hurts. So to for you. The rock doesn't change for any of us. It is still a rock for all observers.

    I would say Natasha's situation changed, but reality, not at all. She still lives on Earth, needs to eat, is still human, nothing in reality actually changed. Her life got better (good for her )
    but reality remained unchanged.



    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    How’s the rice experiment going?

    Had a mishap and would need to start over at this point.

  7. #327
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    Re: The soul does not exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Well, it kinda is, since you are a theist, how/why you came to believe, is very relevant to the discussion as it puts your comments in context,
    If this thread was titled “What is your faith and why do you believe?” I might agree. But debate threads with a specific premise, the discussion is about the soundness of arguments and the reasoning for any points that are presented. It's not about why someone believes in their faith or does not have faith.

    True, but I didn't really expect you to explain Jewish belief of you weren't Jewish.
    Not sure what your point here is, but there are other faiths besides Christianity and Judaism who believe and accept the concept of the soul.


    If we are still talking about it being "4 p.m., July 7, 2019" on Earth, then if the observers from both galaxy A and B could travel instantaneously to Earth, they would see the same"Josh".
    No travel may be required, just observation from their point of existence on whatever dimension they may be on.

    Is there anything supernatural that you know of we can discuss?
    Not sure what you’re asking here Bel… Also, we were discussing the "Nature" article when you asked about demons. There’s nothing supernatural about the premise of the article: The Universe Is ‘Spiritual, Immaterial & Mental’


    I think we have a disconnect here on the definition of reality
    I’m using Webster’s which is a pretty standard dictionary.
    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/reality

    There's also this:

    The reality principle is a theory in psychoanalysis that defines it as representing the demands of the external world and requiring an individual to forgo instinctual demands for gratifications or to postpone it to a more appropriate time.

    REALITY PRINCIPLE: "The reality principle puts a great deal of weight on dealing with the world as it is and not allowing personal demands conflict with reality."


    What is REALITY PRINCIPLE? definition of REALITY PRINCIPLE (Psychology Dictionary)
    https://psychologydictionary.org/reality-principle/
    Hmmm, I see I think. When I speak of reality I am thinking of what we can see, know, feel/touch.
    “The quality or state of being real” can incorporate that. A young girl who knows nothing but being forced into prostitution feels nothing but pain and suffering, touches everything that feels like agony – that is someone’s reality. That is all they know. If you’re born into that reality it is difficult to even imagine some other type of reality. That’s why some of your fellow victims think you're crazy to think you can escape your reality. So, what I presented is just one example of how someone’s inner conviction, profound faith, thoughts, inner vision, with no outer visual confirmation that such a reality exists, brought about circumstances that plucked her out of the only reality she knew. felt and touched.

    There are many other examples of people who have changed their personal reality (and did not accept the world as it is) with their thoughts, beliefs, and faith. In Gandhi's example, his inner vision changed an entire country’s reality.
    Last edited by eye4magic; July 16th, 2019 at 10:34 PM.
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    Re: The soul does not exist

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    If this thread was titled “What is your faith and why do you believe?” I might agree. But debate threads with a specific premise, the discussion is about the soundness of arguments and the reasoning for any points that are presented. It's not about why someone believes in their faith or does not have faith.
    Again, my apologies for getting more personal than you are comfortable with.


    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Not sure what your point here is, but there are other faiths besides Christianity and Judaism who believe and accept the concept of the soul.
    Yes of course there are, but you don't believe they are correct so I didn't expect you to talk about them. I assumed you wanted to discuss this thru a Christian perspective, and we need to pick one because they are mutually exclusive, but I would discuss any religion you choose.


    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    No travel may be required, just observation from their point of existence on whatever dimension they may be on.
    I didn't say it was required. I was merely pointing out that existence is not relative as you suggest as the travel would prove. Or if both observers in galaxy A and B were the same distance from Earth, they again would see the same "Josh".

    When we look in the sky ALL we can see is the past. It takes (roughly) 8 minutes for light from the sun to reach Earth, so when we see the sun we are seeing what it looked like 8 minutes ago, not what it is doing now. The light from Alpha Centauri takes four yrs. No reality changed. Existence is not relative to different observers.



    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Not sure what you’re asking here Bel… Also, we were discussing the "Nature" article when you asked about demons. There’s nothing supernatural about the premise of the article: The Universe Is ‘Spiritual, Immaterial & Mental’
    I asked if you knew of anything supernatural we could discuss, no hidden premise.

    It was an interesting article, though it had little if any support for the contentions stated.

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    I’m using Webster’s which is a pretty standard dictionary.
    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/reality
    Well, if your point is, people often can make their situation better/worse by their own choices, I would say....ok

    I thought you were going for a much more grandiose idea.


    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    There's also this:

    “The quality or state of being real” can incorporate that. A young girl who knows nothing but being forced into prostitution feels nothing but pain and suffering, touches everything that feels like agony – that is someone’s reality.
    Again, I thought you were saying you could actually change/affect the universe or physical law.

    If we are only saying:
    "So often times it happens that we live our lives in chains And we never even know we have the key — Eagles,"

    I agree, though I don't see this supporting a soul in any way?

    Our disconnect is that is not the kind of "reality" I was discussing. I was at a much more fundamental level than "I could eat better if I went back to school and then got a better paying job". +
    I thought you were still referencing people being able to levitate or otherwise change the reality/physical law we all know and love.

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    Re: The soul does not exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    I asked if you knew of anything supernatural we could discuss, no hidden premise.
    Well, with regards do the subject of this thread, the soul, I define supernatural as phenomena that we don’t yet understand. And if we don’t understand something, that generally means we don’t have a current theory to explain it. But my interest in the subject is that, just because we don’t have a theory to explain something, doesn’t mean the phenomena is not real or does not exist.
    Last edited by eye4magic; July 22nd, 2019 at 06:30 PM.
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    Re: The soul does not exist

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Well, with regards do the subject of this thread, the soul, I define supernatural as phenomena that we don’t yet understand. And if we don’t understand something, that generally means we don’t have a current theory to explain it. But my interest in the subject is that, just because we don’t have a theory to explain something, doesn’t mean the phenomena is not real or does not exist.

    What "phenomena" are you referring to?

    I would say, that if God (or any force outside of our universe) affected our universe, that would qualify as supernatural whether we had a theory/understanding or not.

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    Re: The soul does not exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    What "phenomena" are you referring to?
    Whatever phenomena that is regarded as supernatural and is unexplainable using current theories. The subject of this thread is the soul. We currently don't have a theory that explains this age-old phenomenon that some regard as supernatural.

    The ancient Greek philosophers, btw, did have a theory for the soul.
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    Re: The soul does not exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    I would say, that if God (or any force outside of our universe) affected our universe, that would qualify as supernatural whether we had a theory/understanding or not.
    I would disagree.

    The word supernatural, as it is always applied, refers to things that aren't confirmed to exist and haven't been explained in a way where everyone understands it.

    As an example, ghosts. They have not been confirmed to exist and therefore is no valid scientific theory regarding them. While that is just one example, I'm pretty sure this applies to everything that people consider supernatural these days.

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    Re: The soul does not exist

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I would disagree.

    The word supernatural, as it is always applied, refers to things that aren't confirmed to exist and haven't been explained in a way where everyone understands it.

    As an example, ghosts. They have not been confirmed to exist and therefore is no valid scientific theory regarding them. While that is just one example, I'm pretty sure this applies to everything that people consider supernatural these days.
    1. Help me understand how this applies to my comment that you quoted?????
    2. I have never heard supernatural defined that way before.
    2a. If a ghost had been confirmed to exist, a "valid scientific theory" of how/why/whatever they exist, is not necessary to validate whether it exists or not.
    IOW, you don't have to have a theory why/how/whatever rain falls to prove that it does in fact rain.

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    Re: The soul does not exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    1. Help me understand how this applies to my comment that you quoted?????
    2. I have never heard supernatural defined that way before.
    2a. If a ghost had been confirmed to exist, a "valid scientific theory" of how/why/whatever they exist, is not necessary to validate whether it exists or not.
    IOW, you don't have to have a theory why/how/whatever rain falls to prove that it does in fact rain.
    My point is that if it's confirmed to exist (like rain) or its existence is explainable enough to have a scientific theory, it would not qualify as supernatural. Now, I realize that the "theory" aspect might get a bit muddled and perhaps there might be an exception but I'm pretty sure the criteria for something being a scientific theory would exclude it from qualifying as supernatural.

    But the main point is that the term supernatural consistently applies to stuff that has not been verified to exist (like ghosts). If God or the soul were verified to exist, then they would no longer be considered supernatural.

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    Re: The soul does not exist

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    My point is that if it's confirmed to exist (like rain) or its existence is explainable enough to have a scientific theory, it would not qualify as supernatural. Now, I realize that the "theory" aspect might get a bit muddled and perhaps there might be an exception but I'm pretty sure the criteria for something being a scientific theory would exclude it from qualifying as supernatural.

    But the main point is that the term supernatural consistently applies to stuff that has not been verified to exist (like ghosts). If God or the soul were verified to exist, then they would no longer be considered supernatural.
    being "unknown" or rather...unconfirmed as you put it, is in no way a necessary element to "supernatural".
    I mean, If God were to descend from heaven create a new heaven and a new earth in the face of every man so that every knee would bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord.
    That would be by definition a "super natural" event..
    Yet it would fail the definition you ascribe to it.
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    Re: The soul does not exist

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    My point is that if it's confirmed to exist (like rain) or its existence is explainable enough to have a scientific theory, it would not qualify as supernatural.
    I agree that if you can explain a whatever thru science it would not be supernatural, but you can't rule out something being supernatural just because it is confirmed to exist.

    If God put a rock on Earth that was made of something that does not otherwise exist in this universe, it would still be a supernatural rock even after people verified this to be true.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But the main point is that the term supernatural consistently applies to stuff that has not been verified to exist (like ghosts).
    Only because nothing supernatural has ever been verified. You are saying nothing supernatural could exist, because then it would be natural, but I am needing a bit more support than your word, cause I can't find it defined that way.


    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    If God or the soul were verified to exist, then they would no longer be considered supernatural.

    This is just not so at all!
    God, by definition is above the natural law of this universe, therefore is not capable of not being supernatural if he were to visit this universe.
    Further, it would still be supernatural absent any human mind knowing he visited. The human mind is not necessary in any way for something to be supernatural.

    If it could be confirmed God created the Earth by a "thought" from outside of our universe/natural law, before humans were alive, it would still be a supernatural event without humans confirming/explain it.
    Last edited by Belthazor; July 27th, 2019 at 05:44 PM.

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    Re: The soul does not exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    I agree that if you can explain a whatever thru science it would not be supernatural, but you can't rule out something being supernatural just because it is confirmed to exist.

    If God put a rock on Earth that was made of something that does not otherwise exist in this universe, it would still be a supernatural rock even after people verified this to be true.
    If a meteor landed on Earth that was made of a strange unknown substance, the meteor would not be considered supernatural. Science would draw the conclusion that the material exists in the universe and therefore consider it a natural part of the universe since it clearly is part of the universe. Or if mankind dug up this strange rock, the results would be the same.

    Now, if God made the rock appear in a mysterious manner (like a five ton rock suddenly appeared in the middle of time Square) THAT would likely be seen as supernatural but then that is largely due to the fact that it could not be explained how the rock got there. But regardless, mankind would have to accept that that type of rock does exist in the universe and therefore is a natural part of the universe.




    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Only because nothing supernatural has ever been verified. You are saying nothing supernatural could exist, because then it would be natural, but I am needing a bit more support than your word, cause I can't find it defined that way.
    So let me support with a hypothetical example.

    Let's say that it's a fact that sometimes when a person dies, they leave psychic energy behind on Earth and sometimes its detected by people and that's where the supernatural phenomena knows as "ghosts" come from. And let's say that in ten years from now, scientists will be able to detect, measure, and learn pretty much everything about the leftover psychic energy and develop a valid scientific theory of the phenomena. At that point the ghost phenomena becomes is considered part of the natural world and would no longer become supernatural.

    And I'm not saying nothing supernatural exist. Going back to the above ghost scenario, if psychic energy is left behind and scientists can't detect it and it can't be confirmed to the point where it becomes part of the natural model, then it is indeed supernatural and it also exists.

    But nothing supernatural can be scientifically confirmed to exist because once it's confirmed, it becomes part of the natural world. But it can exist without being scientifically confirmed (like ghosts if they actually exist). I have a friend who tells me in all seriousness that there's a ghost in his house and I can't say that he's wrong. I can have my doubts but I can't say that he's definitely wrong.






    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    This is just not so at all!
    God, by definition is above the natural law of this universe, therefore is not capable of not being supernatural if he were to visit this universe.
    I don't see how that fits the definition of supernatural.

    While everything that is supernatural is not explained, it is not true that everything that is not explained is supernatural. If God came to Earth and made it clear that God exists, then all science regarding that would start with the knowledge that God exists and all theories that follow would seek to explain God. But God would certainly be confirmed as part of the natural world at that point.



    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Further, it would still be supernatural absent any human mind knowing he visited. The human mind is not necessary in any way for something to be supernatural.

    If it could be confirmed God created the Earth by a "thought" from outside of our universe/natural law, before humans were alive, it would still be a supernatural event without humans confirming/explain it.
    This seems contradictory so I'm not sure how to respond.

    If it's confirmed that God created the universe from outside the universe, then it's a confirmed event and you can't say "it would still be a supernatural event without humans confirming/explain it."

    So I think you need to explain what you mean here a bit clearer.
    Last edited by mican333; July 28th, 2019 at 10:10 AM.

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    Re: The soul does not exist

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    If a meteor landed on Earth that was made of a strange unknown substance,...
    I said " If God put a rock on Earth that was made of something that does not otherwise exist in this universe, it would still be a supernatural rock even after people verified this to be true. "


    I didn't say "unknown", I said something that does not/can not exist in our universe.
    IOW, natural law has been suspended/disregarded for this "rock" and this rock only to be in our universe.

    ---------- Post added at 10:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:01 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    So let me support with a hypothetical example.

    Let's say that it's a fact that sometimes when a person dies,...
    NOTHING super natural here. If the "life force" exists after death, it existed before death.
    The opposite of supernatural.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But nothing supernatural can be scientifically confirmed to exist because once it's confirmed, it becomes part of the natural world. But it can exist without being scientifically confirmed (like ghosts if they actually exist). I have a friend who tells me in all seriousness that there's a ghost in his house and I can't say that he's wrong. I can have my doubts but I can't say that he's definitely wrong.
    Something exists or it doesn't, whether Mican (or science) believes/proves it is so or not.

    The human mind does not affect reality.



    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I don't see how that fits the definition of supernatural.
    So far your "idea" of supernatural is that it does not exist except as a conception, that once realized disappears into natural so that it never existed as supernatural at all...a curious thought...

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    While everything that is supernatural is not explained, it is not true that everything that is not explained is supernatural. If God came to Earth and made it clear that God exists, then all science regarding that would start with the knowledge that God exists and all theories that follow would seek to explain God. But God would certainly be confirmed as part of the natural world at that point.
    Support other than "Mican says it is so" please.

    God (should He exist) is OBVIOUSLY outside of the natural world because the natural world can not cause itself!

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    This seems contradictory so I'm not sure how to respond.
    If it's confirmed that God created the universe from outside the universe, then it's a confirmed event and you can't say "it would still be a supernatural event without humans confirming/explain it."
    So I think you need to explain what you mean here a bit clearer.
    It is supernatural because it can not occur with in our universe/nature without an outside influence which is by definition supernatural.

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    Re: The soul does not exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    NOTHING super natural here. If the "life force" exists after death, it existed before death.
    The opposite of supernatural.
    Not by any definition of "supernatural" that I'm aware of so please support this assertion.



    [QUOTE=Belthazor;566504]Something exists or it doesn't, whether Mican (or science) believes/proves it is so or not.

    The human mind does not affect reality. ]/quote]

    I never said otherwise. The human mind does not affect reality but it does affect what is and is not supernatural.

    The supernatural is defined as "attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature." So going back to my ghost scenario, when the scientists could not detect the psychic energy of the decease, the phenomena was beyond scientific understanding and therefore "supernatural". And when they were able to incorporate "ghosts" into their scientific understanding, then ghosts are no longer beyond scientific understanding and therefore no longer "supernatural".





    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    So far your "idea" of supernatural is that it does not exist except as a conception, that once realized disappears into natural so that it never existed as supernatural at all...a curious thought...
    That's not how I've described supernatural at all.




    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Support other than "Mican says it is so" please.

    God is OBVIOUSLY outside of the natural world because the natural world can not cause itself!
    Because you say so? Pantheism holds that there is no separation of God and the universe so if that's correct, then the universe did create itself (as in God alternated his form to become the universe) and this has not been proven to be incorrect so it's not a fact that God is separate from the universe.

    But besides that if it's scientific fact, then BY DEFINITION, it is not supernatural. So if it's determined that God does exist, then the belief that God exists is not a belief in the supernatural.


    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    It is supernatural because it can not occur with in our universe/nature without an outside influence which is by definition supernatural.
    You really need to give me an specific example before I can say I agree or not. Whether it's "supernatural" is dependent on whether it is determined BY PEOPLE that it cannot be explained by natural means. If some strange rock is found, it's a scientific fact that the rock exists os its existence would not be considered supernatural. So there has to be some aspect of the rock itself that makes people go "That' not explainable by our current scientific understanding and therefore supernatural".

    So please give me an example of what would make the rock seem supernatural to people. I provided the example of defying gravity and I'd accept that as qualifying as "supernatural". But feel free to give me your own example if you don't want to use that.

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    Re: The soul does not exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Something exists or it doesn't, whether Mican (or science) believes/proves it is so or not.
    Well, according to a more standard definition of supernatural, your comment is not accurate.

    Supernatural:

    1. existing or occurring outside the normal experience or knowledge of man; not explainable by the known forces or laws of nature; specif., of, involving, or attributed to God or a god
    2. of, involving, or attributed to ghosts, spirits, the occult, etc.
    3. exceeding normal bounds; extreme: skating with supernatural grace

    https://www.yourdictionary.com/supernatural

    Something can exist outside the normal human experience [supernatural] of human knowledge. Whether or not it is recognized as existing is a different question. Not to mention, human knowledge is limited.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miccan View Post
    While everything that is supernatural is not explained, it is not true that everything that is not explained is supernatural. If God came to Earth and made it clear that God exists, then all science regarding that would start with the knowledge that God exists and all theories that follow would seek to explain God. But God would certainly be confirmed as part of the natural world at that point.
    If God made is clear that the Spirit existed to enough white coats and that he was truly part of the natural world, that doesn’t mean the Spirit would not continue to be in the spiritual (supernatural) domain. My point is we currently assume natural and supernatural conflict with each other [we understand one while we don't understand the other], and based on our current definitions and understanding, they do conflict. But that doesn’t mean they have to conflict with each other or that our perception of the conflict won’t change someday where we perhaps discover that Matter (natural) and Spirit (supernatural) are complementary forces.
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