The soul does not exist

[eye4magic]

Traveling to Earth is a different deal though. Faster than light or extremely long travel would seem necessary for visitors to Earth.


Where did this "some form of intelligence" (that created the soulless life) come from? Who created them?

Your claim is that this "other life" is soulless necessarily. Do you have any support for this?

Why must it/they be soulless?

IOW, if this "form of intelligence" can create life why can it not have a soul?

First, bear in mind we’re talking hypotheticals here. My point was/is that I think it's an assumption that all humans that ever lived or are living have/had souls which I stated after you made the comment “if every human that ever lived had a soul.” All discussion about this point is hypothetical. I don’t mind discussing hypotheticals, it lets the imagination dance.


What that said

1. Travel to earth from other evolutions may be no big deal for evolutions that may have more knowledge than our current evolution (if they exist).
2. As far as who created a soulless intelligence (if one does exist); are you familiar with fallen angels?
3. Why must it be soulless? As I stated earlier, perhaps because souls (spirit) are not for sale.

But now we are back to God created this universe and all in it.

When you stated this earlier I agreed to: God created this universe.

But my physical brain is not me (per you). My mind is not in/of my brain (per you).

I’m not sure what you’re talking about here. What (per you)? Please provide some context to what you are referencing.

Are you submitting the human heart is more than a pump, as in an organ of emotion as well?

From the perspective of the world religion’s sacred text, yes, to God, the heart is much more than a physical self-running pump.

[Belthazor]

First, bear in mind we’re talking hypotheticals here. My point was/is that I think it's an assumption that all humans that ever lived or are living have/had souls which I stated after you made the comment “if every human that ever lived had a soul.” All discussion about this point is hypothetical. I don’t mind discussing hypotheticals, it lets the imagination dance.
What that said

Fair enough, I was just trying to figure out where these soulless humans came from. I have never heard anyone make that claim before...

1. Travel to earth from other evolutions may be no big deal for evolutions that may have more knowledge than our current evolution (if they exist).
2. As far as who created a soulless intelligence (if one does exist); are you familiar with fallen angels?
3. Why must it be soulless? As I stated earlier, perhaps because souls (spirit) are not for sale.

1. "Other evolutions" would still have to traverse unfathomable distances and then be able to replicate humans in appearance and behavior. A pretty tall order...
2. Since God created angels He must have granted them the power to create life?
3. They should try Amazon.com

When you stated this earlier I agreed to: God created this universe.

Then He decided what qualities/powers/abilities of the life He created would enjoy.

I’m not sure what you’re talking about here. What (per you)? Please provide some context to what you are referencing.

"Per you" means this is your point not necessarily a point I am forwarding.
IOW, you said the human mind is the soul not the brain. So there is no need for a limitation of the brain interfering with God communicating. He could communicate with the soul instead.

From the perspective of the world religion’s sacred text, yes, to God, the heart is much more than a physical self-running pump.

1. The heart is a muscle. In concept, little difference from any other muscle in your body. It contracts when electricity is applied to it.
2. What of those that have had a heart transplant or have severely impaired heart? Are those people then lacking the ability of this emotion?

[eye4magic]

Fair enough, I was just trying to figure out where these soulless humans came from. I have never heard anyone make that claim before...

No claim made. I simply pointed out that I thought your comment was an assumption.

1. "Other evolutions" would still have to traverse unfathomable distances and then be able to replicate humans in appearance and behavior. A pretty tall order...

Or, they could possibly incarnate through human birth just like human babies with a soul. Now, that might be an interesting discussion….

2. Since God created angels He must have granted them the power to create life?

If a fallen angel (FA) eventually lost their soul, disconnected from the Spirit, then whatever form of life they figured out how to create would emulate the state of the FA, a soulless being.

3. They should try Amazon.com

I don’t think you can warehouse a spirit But if you could, hypothetically, Amazon Prime delivery might become Amazon Insta (for instant delivery) upon order.

Then He decided what qualities/powers/abilities of the life He created would enjoy.

He decided to give his creation the power to “take dominion over the earth.” That’s an enormous responsibility -- being co-creators. That means that whatever we break, mess up, mis-create, we can either fix, restore, tear down and rebuild, or we can live with the consequences of our choices.

"Per you" means this is your point not necessarily a point I am forwarding.
IOW, you said the human mind is the soul not the brain. So there is no need for a limitation of the brain interfering with God communicating. He could communicate with the soul instead.

I’m not sure what point you’re referring to that I made. Perhaps you can cite it.

The heart is a muscle. In concept, little difference from any other muscle in your body. It contracts when electricity is applied to it.

To God the heart is not just a physical muscle. My point being is that if you’re trying to communicate with God and the number you are using to reach him and leave him a message isn’t working, you might want to consider trying to communicate through your heart. (“God knows your hearts.” (Luke 16:15)

[Belthazor]

No claim made. I simply pointed out that I thought your comment was an assumption.

Ok, no worries. Perhaps you are correct.
My understanding of Christian theology was all humans had a soul and were created by God.

Or, they could possibly incarnate through human birth just like human babies with a soul. Now, that might be an interesting discussion….

You mean like somehow "project their consciousness from their planet thru space into a human body?

If a fallen angel (FA) eventually lost their soul, disconnected from the Spirit, then whatever form of life they figured out how to create would emulate the state of the FA, a soulless being.

How can one "loose their soul"? Is that not where consciousness resides? If the angel's soul left its "body", the "body" would just hang out. No thoughts or voluntary movement.

I don’t think you can warehouse a spirit But if you could, hypothetically, Amazon Prime delivery might become Amazon Insta (for instant delivery) upon order.

They could do it on Star Trek with the transporter! Mind/body/soul all converted to an energy beam. They did have a problem with distance though....

I’m not sure what point you’re referring to that I made. Perhaps you can cite it.

My understanding of what you are forwarding:

That the mind is not contained in the physical brain.
The mind = the soul.
The mind/soul are immaterial.
The mind/soul are timeless/live forever.
The mind is partially responsible for the universe as we know it.

To God the heart is not just a physical muscle. My point being is that if you’re trying to communicate with God and the number you are using to reach him and leave him a message isn’t working, you might want to consider trying to communicate through your heart. (“God knows your hearts.” (Luke 16:15)

Metaphorically I get it, but if you mean the heart somehow can impart human emotion and you can actually communicate thru it, I think would need support.
I am curious about your thoughts though

[eye4magic]

You mean like somehow "project their consciousness from their planet thru space into a human body?

Perhaps using a similar method (whatever that method is) that a soul enters a developing fetus. A soulless being then might come from a different frequency domain.

How can one "lose their soul"?

I suppose if you asked George Lucas that question, he might say one way of losing one’s soul is by choosing to turn to the “dark side.”

I would suspect that it takes a tremendous amount of wrong choices and acts against God and his creation for this to take place.

Is that not where consciousness resides? If the angel's soul left its "body", the "body" would just hang out. No thoughts or voluntary movement.

I don't think angels have human form, though they can most likely work through the human form. I think it’s possible for consciousness/intelligence to exist without being connected to the spirit (soul). The Spirit provides the divine spark, the fire to existence; the opportunity to experience what some call the most powerful force in the universe: love.

My understanding of what you are forwarding:

That the mind is not contained in the physical brain.

OK

The mind = the soul.

I don’t think I said that, but if you think I did, let me know the post.

The mind/soul is immaterial.

OK

The mind/soul is timeless/live forever.

I think there is a difference between the human mind and the timeless mind. The human mind seems to end when we reach our physical expiration date.

The mind is partially responsible for the universe as we know it.

I’m not sure what that means.

Metaphorically I get it, but if you mean the heart somehow can impart human emotion and you can actually communicate thru it, I think would need support.
I am curious about your thoughts though

1. God reads and knows the human heart. Scriptures teach us this.
2. You don’t have to believe scriptures if you choose not to.
3. If you want support for this principle, you can choose to experiment and prove it to yourself
4. You have a heart, feelings and are most likely able to communicate and can express love and sincerity.
5. Since you have been trying to communicate with God (as you stated earlier) and you've been leaving a message on some sort of answering machine, try to communicate with the Divine your desired thoughts sincerely through your heart for a while and see what happens.

[Belthazor]

Perhaps using a similar method (whatever that method is) that a soul enters a developing fetus. A soulless being then might come from a different frequency domain.

This is a curious point that I rarely hear discussed.
A human fetus is nothing more than a shell till the soul "enters" it (and even after that to a large degree)?
(This makes abortion make a lot more sense. After all, if you kill the fetus before a soul enters, you haven't really killed much....)

If a soul can't get into Heaven till it becomes a human and then after the body dies, I wonder what all these souls are doing prior to acquiring a human fetus/body?
I wonder how a given soul "knows" what fetus to acquire? A waiting list perhaps

I would suspect that it takes a tremendous amount of wrong choices and acts against God and his creation for this to take place.

I don't see that what is left after the soul leaves, being able to function on a conscious level?

I don't think angels have human form, though they can most likely work through the human form. I think it’s possible for consciousness/intelligence to exist without being connected to the spirit (soul). The Spirit provides the divine spark, the fire to existence; the opportunity to experience what some call the most powerful force in the universe: love.

I did not say "human form". I said their ""body""

I don’t think I said that, but if you think I did, let me know the post.

Sorry, don't mean to put words in your mouth, just trying to make sure I understand where you are coming from.

I think there is a difference between the human mind and the timeless mind. The human mind seems to end when we reach our physical expiration date.

So is the soul where your thoughts come from?
I thought the human mind transcended the human brain, as the brain is more like a tv, just playing the minds thoughts?
How does a soul fit in all of this?

I’m not sure what that means.

Your claim has been the human mind is quite capable of and virtually necessary for the universe to exist. Or as you put it another way, the mind directly affects reality.

1. God reads and knows the human heart. Scriptures teach us this.
2. You don’t have to believe scriptures if you choose not to.
3. If you want support for this principle, you can choose to experiment and prove it to yourself
4. You have a heart, feelings and are most likely able to communicate and can express love and sincerity.
5. Since you have been trying to communicate with God (as you stated earlier) and you've been leaving a message on some sort of answering machine, try to communicate with the Divine your desired thoughts sincerely through your heart for a while and see what happens.

1. I am not sure Scripture supports this claim except as metaphor.
2. I have no position on the validity of Scripture.
3. How, I only know how to communicate with my mind?
4. Thank you
4a. I have had a few people question those assumptions before. One or two from this website....
5. My first "desired thought" is:
do you exist?

[eye4magic]

A human fetus is nothing more than a shell till the soul "enters" it (and even after that to a large degree)?
(This makes abortion make a lot more sense. After all, if you kill the fetus before a soul enters, you haven't really killed much....)

When ensoulment happens is an interesting topic and different religions and cultures have different views on this. Early Americans, for example, followed English law and abortion was legal in the American colonies until the time of “quickening” in the fetus. This is the time when the baby starts to move, which is usually around the fourth month of pregnancy.

If a soul can't get into Heaven till it becomes a human and then after the body dies, I wonder what all these souls are doing prior to acquiring a human fetus/body?

Personally, I believe there are different dimensions (levels) of hierarchial existence where souls prepare for a lifetime. But that’s my opinion.

I wonder how a given soul "knows" what fetus to acquire? A waiting list perhaps

I think I referenced earlier in the debate, a link to a young child under hypnosis who remembered choosing his parents before he was born. There are psychiatrists and other professionals who now study and work with children who have memories before they were born. My opinion on your comment is that I believe it’s very individualized as to who (parents) a soul embodies through. Perhaps some souls can choose their parents, while some souls are assigned to certain parents.

I don't see that what is left after the soul leaves, being able to function on a conscious level?
So is the soul where your thoughts come from?
I thought the human mind transcended the human brain, as the brain is more like a tv, just playing the minds thoughts?
How does a soul fit in all of this?

Before I comment on these statements: do you believe in the soul? I recall when we were discussing demons, your statements seemed to imply you believed they existed, but when I asked you, you said no, you did not, which made the debate point somewhat a waste of time.

Your claim has been the human mind is quite capable of and virtually necessary for the universe to exist. Or as you put it another way, the mind directly affects reality.

Or … our mind creates our current perceived reality (CPR).

How, I only know how to communicate with my mind?

OK. It's probably better if you do what comes naturally. Peronally, I believe God can work through the human mind also, especially when we embarce the Christ mind.

[Belthazor]

When ensoulment happens is an interesting topic and different religions and cultures have different views on this.

Indeed, assuming the soul exists, when and where would be most interesting

Personally, I believe there are different dimensions (levels) of hierarchial existence where souls prepare for a lifetime. But that’s my opinion.

Kinda like new age Karma then in a way.

My opinion on your comment is that I believe it’s very individualized as to who (parents) a soul embodies through. Perhaps some souls can choose their parents, while some souls are assigned to certain parents.

I wonder why some would have choice and others not?

Before I comment on these statements: do you believe in the soul? I recall when we were discussing demons, your statements seemed to imply you believed they existed, but when I asked you, you said no, you did not, which made the debate point somewhat a waste of time.

I'm sorry you felt that exchange a waste :(

When we were discussing Demons I was inquiring about your beliefs and using your comments about them and indicated that, but to answer your question:

I don't claim souls do or do not exist. In this thread (like this current one, http://www.onlinedebate.net/forums/s...ally-justified) I am just exploring what the person on the positive side is claiming.
IOW, I believe the soul could exist, but I am not seeing compelling evidence of it currently. I have a feeling that the mind is contained in the brain though definitely noting that is just a feeling, nothing more.

Or … our mind creates our current perceived reality (CPR).

Ahhh, if it's just a persons perception you are discussing, I would tend to agree, actual reality not withstanding.

OK. It's probably better if you do what comes naturally. Peronally, I believe God can work through the human mind also, especially when we embarce the Christ mind.

I originally found ODN while researching a religious topic and it came up as a source. I found many of the participants had ideas I had never considered and some just really dandy questions. I found it incredibly interesting to be able to discuss these things while limiting emotion from the discussion. Most people I ever got to talk to about these types of things just get mad if you ask questions of their beliefs. Squatch and I have been at it over a yr now and no ill feelings on either side!

As we have apparently reached the twilight hours of ODN, I think I should have started posting a few years before I did. I think I could have made a few friendships here (maybe I still can) that could outlast the site

I appreciate you taking the time to tell me your thoughts about life/reality.
Belt

[eye4magic]

Kinda like new age Karma then in a way.

I peronsally embrace the possibility that there are multiple dimensions because of years of journaling and working to remember my dreams. It appears to me that where the soul travels to when we sleep includes different dimensions. This doesn't mean there are different dimensions, but that's why I personally think this is possible.

I also find it interesting that some scientists believe in a multi dimensional universe.
https://www.universetoday.com/48619/...10-dimensions/

I wonder why some would have choice and others not?

Not sure, but perhaps the more data we collect from children who remember pre- birth experiences, we might gain more insight about this.

I have a feeling that the mind is contained in the brain though definitely noting that is just a feeling, nothing more.

Right, you’ve stated that before and on this we disagree.

I appreciate you taking the time to tell me your thoughts about life/reality.

Sure

[Belthazor]

I peronsally embrace the possibility that there are multiple dimensions because of years of journaling and working to remember my dreams.

I lean a bit toward String Theory which posits that there are ten or eleven dimensions, though the other 6/7 are not really like the four we know and enjoy.

I find dreams a terribly interesting subject. Have we discussed lucid dreaming?

It appears to me that where the soul travels to when we sleep includes different dimensions. This doesn't mean there are different dimensions, but that's why I personally think this is possible.

Interesting idea I have not heard before
(though again, I lean toward the brain causing/containing the mind)
"Take a trip and never leave the farm" in a way.

I also find it interesting that some scientists believe in a multi dimensional universe.
https://www.universetoday.com/48619/...10-dimensions/

Indeed, there is a pretty fair consensus that there is more going on than we currently can identify.

Not sure, but perhaps the more data we collect from children who remember pre- birth experiences, we might gain more insight about this.

Another curious idea and though I am personally not convinced yet about this, some of the stories do seem fairly compelling. I do find the occurrence of those seems rather limited though.

Right, you’ve stated that before and on this we disagree.

Well:
we know for sure the brain exists. We know consciousness/the mind exists.
We do not know if the soul exists. We do not know if the mind/soul is eternal (especially since nothing else is).

Seems a natural bias to lean toward that which we know is true, than leaning toward guessing/hoping/utilizing faith for what might be....

[eye4magic]

I find dreams a terribly interesting subject. Have we discussed lucid dreaming?

We discussed them a little earlier and I recall you told me you’ve experienced them.

Interesting idea I have not heard before
(though again, I lean toward the brain causing/containing the mind)
"Take a trip and never leave the farm" in a way.

Were we go and what we can work on remembering from a dream state can definitely influence one’s views of reality and the world. This is especially the case when dreams and the insights we glean from them solve dilemmas in our life and answer nagging and what we assume are unanswerable questions.

we know for sure the brain exists. We know consciousness/the mind exists.
We do not know if the soul exists. We do not know if the mind/soul is eternal (especially since nothing else is).

Some people can experience and communicate with their soul, thus for them, the soul is known.

[Belthazor]

Were we go and what we can work on remembering from a dream state can definitely influence one’s views of reality and the world. This is especially the case when dreams and the insights we glean from them solve dilemmas in our life and answer nagging and what we assume are unanswerable questions.

Indeed, things certainly do not have to be real to affect our world view dramatically!

Some people can experience and communicate with their soul, thus for them, the soul is known.

I definitely do not understand???

I thought had been proposing the soul and the mind are one?

[eye4magic]

Indeed, things certainly do not have to be real to affect our world view dramatically!

True, on the other hand, what we assume to be real through our dualistic mind in a relative world may not actually be real against the backdrop (context) of information we may not be aware of.

I definitely do not understand???

I thought I had been proposing the soul and the mind are one?

I don’t think the soul and the human mind are the same.

We have a definition of the soul earlier in this thread: “the immaterial essence, animating principle, or actuating cause of an individual life; the spiritual principle embodied in human beings”

The soul is the spiritual nature of man, the essence of a person, not confined to the human body. And depending on one's personal beliefs, it is connected to its Creator. The soul. for the most part, is not perishable while the body (human mind) has an expiration date.

The human mind is our faculty of thinking and reasoning and is bound to the body. The mind is the element of a person that enables us to be aware of the world us. The mind thinks; the soul experiences.

The human mind can be compared in many ways to a computer. It is programmable through stimuli and repetition,

[Belthazor]

True, on the other hand, what we assume to be real through our dualistic mind in a relative world may not actually be real against the backdrop (context) of information we may not be aware of.

You are a breath of fresh air in an otherwise smoky room

---------- Post added at 03:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:20 PM ----------

True, on the other hand, what we assume to be real through our dualistic mind in a relative world may not actually be real against the backdrop (context) of information we may not be aware of.

This scenario could make it quite difficult indeed to discern truth, for truth here is a moving target...

I don’t think the soul and the human mind are the same.

Ok

We have a definition of the soul earlier in this thread: “the immaterial essence, animating principle, or actuating cause of an individual life; the spiritual principle embodied in human beings”

Also ok.

The soul is the spiritual nature of man, the essence of a person, not confined to the human body. And depending on one's personal beliefs, it is connected to its Creator. The soul. for the most part, is not perishable while the body (human mind) has an expiration date.

The human mind is our faculty of thinking and reasoning and is bound to the body. The mind is the element of a person that enables us to be aware of the world us. The mind thinks; the soul experiences.

The human mind can be compared in many ways to a computer. It is programmable through stimuli and repetition,

So when the mind dies there is no more thinking just the soul experiencing?

[eye4magic]

This scenario could make it quite difficult indeed to discern truth, for truth here is a moving target...

I will not argue that discerning truth is easy in a relative world. But then, many things are not easy in this world. Such is life. That doesn’t mean difficulty can’t be overcome. Nor does it mean our awareness is not capable of taking in more information so as to enable truth to become clearly evident to our outer awareness.

So when the mind dies there is no more thinking just the soul experiencing?

Well, my view on this is that we have five external senses and one internal sense, the mind. Not everyone may regard the mind as an internal sense, but I do. These senses are the soul’s instruments to communicate and navigate in this world. When the human body dies, the soul no longer has the need to communicate or interact with the relative world thus our senses and internal sense pass away with the body. This doesn’t mean that consciousness ceases to exist. It just means the internal sense, the human mind, and the five senses that help the physical body navigate this ship are no longer required.

[Belthazor]

I will not argue that discerning truth is easy in a relative world. But then, many things are not easy in this world. Such is life. That doesn’t mean difficulty can’t be overcome. Nor does it mean our awareness is not capable of taking in more information so as to enable truth to become clearly evident to our outer awareness.

The way you describe it, I'm not sure there is a truth that is universal, and if there was it could quite easily be unknowable???

Well, my view on this is that we have five external senses and one internal sense, the mind. Not everyone may regard the mind as an internal sense, but I do. These senses are the soul’s instruments to communicate and navigate in this world. When the human body dies, the soul no longer has the need to communicate or interact with the relative world thus our senses and internal sense pass away with the body. This doesn’t mean that consciousness ceases to exist. It just means the internal sense, the human mind, and the five senses that help the physical body navigate this ship are no longer required.

The human mind as a "sense" is a pretty unique perspective and one that changes the definition of "human mind" completely...

[eye4magic]

The way you describe it, I'm not sure there is a truth that is universal, and if there was it could quite easily be unknowable???

Just because something is difficult doesn’t mean it can’t be realized. Again, consider that the more awareness we can discover, the more self evident truth becomes to us.

The human mind as a "sense" is a pretty unique perspective and one that changes the definition of "human mind" completely...

However we define the human mind, once we pass from the screen of life, the soul has no need for it since the human body ceases to exist.

The idea of the Christ mind is referred to in the Bible and other religious text. Now, that’s an interesting reality for the soul. Are you familiar with that concept?

[Belthazor]

agic;568020]Just because something is difficult doesn’t mean it can’t be realized. Again, consider that the more awareness we can discover, the more self evident truth becomes to us.
[/QUOTE]

I said based on your description, truth may be unknowable which is orders of magnitude different than "difficult"....

However we define the human mind, once we pass from the screen of life, the soul has no need for it since the human body ceases to exist.

A definition describes truth (hopefully), it doesn't create truth.
This still sounds like an incredibly unique outlook I don't think I have heard anyone put forward.

The idea of the Christ mind is referred to in the Bible and other religious text. Now, that’s an interesting reality for the soul. Are you familiar with that concept?

I don't think so, care to explain it?