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  1. #301
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    Re: The soul does not exist

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Not necessarily. Some people just stop seeking.
    True but not what I said.
    "If one is "seeking God" I believe that person will find a "God".

    If one is in search of truth ....

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Just because a physical world exists as a temporal phenomenon, does not mean the Divine can’t reflect its infinite grace through it while the manifestation appears to be physical. If you consider the spiritual principle of "as above, so below," that could be one reason a temporal, illusive physical world was created.
    It was you that suggested the universe/reality was a hologram. I am pointing out the ramifications of the same...


    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    As far as our immediate local world, yes, QM suggests that we create it. So, when we think about it, being co-creators gives us quite of bit of responsibility and possible freedom. As far as the universe, the stars, planets, milk way, endless galaxies – not sure the human mind/consciousness can conceive of such amazing manifestations…. all such wonders certainly reflect a majestic consciousness. Also, the universe was around long before man came on the scene.
    In what way does QM suggest what you claim?
    You only speculate so far that it could be.

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Right, God is not part of our current physics. Though as the author noted the physics does seem to point to a universe that is immaterial-mental and spiritual.
    Right, if humans are "co creators" then all God did was create the human mind. That mind did the rest.


    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Humm, are we going to do this again....? What religious text supports this? God initially created man with a pure, divinely tuned mind, one that could communicate clearly with their source and knew their source. He did not create man’s carnal human nature. Then, since we’re talking about creation, it looks like God created two worlds (we might think of them as dimensions/realms: a spiritual world (heaven, invisible to our senses, permanent), and a physical world (what we observe; finite, subject to change depending on what we create, temporal, elusive).
    "God" created all or at the least the capacity for "all". Humans "carnal nature" is DEFINATELY included in that!


    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    What does this mean to you: "The universe is immaterial-mental and spiritual?"

    No disrespect intended, but so far, it means nothing to me, as I doubt the accuracy of the statement.
    The universe is material and so are humans (the possibility of a disembodied "mind" notwithstanding). I hope we can agree on that?

  2. #302
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    Re: The soul does not exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    It was you that suggested the universe/reality was a hologram. I am pointing out the ramifications of the same...
    And I am pointing out that,whatever the universe may be, the Divine (absolute) can most likely reflect itself through a temporal elusive temporal state. From a theological perspective, the physical world, however elusive it may be seems to have a purpose for the Creator.

    In what way does QM suggest what you claim? You only speculate so far that it could be.
    Here are some principles and theories that suggest we create our reality and which support the concept of a immaterial/mental/spiritual universe that is spoken about in the article. There may be more.

    The Observer Effect
    https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0227055013.htm

    The Double Slit Experiment
    https://www.popularmechanics.com/sci...-even-weirder/

    The Quantum experiment that broke reality is mostly like the Double Slit Experiment
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-MNSLsjjdo

    The Nocebo effect
    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/scien...ffect-5451823/

    Water, Consciousness & Intent: Dr. Masaru Emoto
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAvzsjcBtx8


    Right, if humans are "co-creators" then all God did was create the human mind. That mind did the rest.
    Co-creators means to participate in the creation process with another source. One could say the Creator gave man the freedom to create the world we want to live in. That could be positive or negative, bearing in mind that strictly human finite minds can only create temporal finite stuff. So one interesting implication of the concept of we create our reality is if humans are involved in creating all this temporal physical stuff, perhaps we can also choose to emulate aspects of the source’s mind (permanent, hidden and from a theological perspective, all-knowing and Divine.) That’s when things might get interesting and mind-bending.

    "God" created all or at the least the capacity for "all". Humans "carnal nature" is DEFINITELY included in that!
    Perhaps in Belthazor dogma. Since I am not familiar with this doctrine, I’ll let this go.


    No disrespect intended, but so far, it means nothing to me,
    So be it.

    They are related.

    Whenever, in these experiments, we discover the path of a quantum particle, its cloud of possible routes "collapses" into a single well-defined state. What's more, the delayed-choice experiment implies that the sheer act of noticing, rather than any physical disturbance caused by measuring, can cause the collapse. But does this mean that true collapse has only happened when the result of a measurement impinges on our consciousness?

    It is hard to avoid the implication that consciousness and quantum mechanics are somehow linked. That possibility was admitted in the 1930s by the Hungarian physicist Eugene Wigner. "It follows that the quantum description of objects is influenced by impressions entering my consciousness," he wrote. "Solipsism may be logically consistent with present quantum mechanics."
    Wheeler even entertained the thought that the presence of living beings, which are capable of "noticing", has transformed what was previously a multitude of possible quantum pasts into one concrete history. In this sense, Wheeler said, we become participants in the evolution of the Universe since its very beginning. In his words, we live in a "participatory universe."

    To this day, physicists do not agree on the best way to interpret these quantum experiments, and to some extent what you make of them is (at the moment) up to you. But one way or another, it is hard to avoid the implication that consciousness and quantum mechanics are somehow linked.

    Beginning in the 1980s, the British physicist Roger Penrose suggested that the link might work in the other direction. Whether or not consciousness can affect quantum mechanics, he said, perhaps quantum mechanics is involved in consciousness.”
    "The universe is immaterial-mental and spiritual.” --"The Mental Universe” | Nature
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  3. #303
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    Re: The soul does not exist

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    And I am pointing out that,whatever the universe may be, the Divine (absolute) can most likely reflect itself through a temporal elusive temporal state. From a theological perspective, the physical world, however elusive it may be seems to have a purpose for the Creator.
    This of course assumes a creator from the beginning as apposed to "finding" a creator thru logical thought (since the creator you speak of only sits on the sidelines rather than joining our conversation). But ya, the Devine you claim should be able to "reflect itself" thru an illusion of it's own creation. That doesn't counter my point though...


    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Here are some principles and theories that suggest we create our reality and which support the concept of a immaterial/mental/spiritual universe that is spoken about in the article. There may be more.

    The Observer Effect
    https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0227055013.htm

    The Double Slit Experiment
    https://www.popularmechanics.com/sci...-even-weirder/
    These examples, while very interesting to me personally, don't support your claim that the mind affects reality in any way (other than perception).

    1. When "observing" is being discussed they are not speaking of a "person looking at something and affecting it just by looking". When humans "observe" a particle, they aren't looking at it with their eyeballs, they are using an instrument that fires electrons (there are other methods but all suffer form the same limitation) at it to interact with it. Of course this has an affect on the particle. There is no other possibility! It is a given.

    2. The double slit experiment only shows we don't understand "particle physics" as well as we thought, not that the human mind has ANY affect on light/photons/particles in any way.



    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Co-creators means to participate in the creation process with another source.
    Perhaps, but in the scenario you have given, a human mind created our reality....


    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Perhaps in Belthazor dogma. Since I am not familiar with this doctrine, I’ll let this go.
    Sorry you feel this way. I thought that God created all/everything conceivable was common Christian belief. Perhaps I am mistaken (again....)….

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Beginning in the 1980s, the British physicist Roger Penrose suggested that the link might work in the other direction. Whether or not consciousness can affect quantum mechanics, he said, perhaps quantum mechanics is involved in consciousness.”
    Now this is an interesting idea

  4. #304
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    Re: The soul does not exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    This of course assumes a creator from the beginning as apposed to "finding" a creator thru logical thought (since the creator you speak of only sits on the sidelines rather than joining our conversation).
    Where was it stated that the Creator sits on the sidelines?

    That doesn't counter my point though...
    What exactly was your point?

    These examples, while very interesting to me personally, don't support your claim –
    It’s not my claim. It’s stated in the Nature article and also accepted by other physicists. I simply agree with the premise.


    Perhaps, but in the scenario you have given, a human mind created our reality....
    “A fundamental conclusion of the new physics also acknowledges that the observer creates the reality. As observers, we are personally involved with the creation of our own reality. “

    Yes, we seem to be involved in the process. However, being involved in the process doesn’t mean there are no other forces/factors involved. It also doesn’t mean that we can’t choose to switch out of the limitations of the human mind to something more enlightening.
    "The universe is immaterial-mental and spiritual.” --"The Mental Universe” | Nature
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  5. #305
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    Re: The soul does not exist

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Where was it stated that the Creator sits on the sidelines?
    In context I said:
    "(since the creator you speak of only sits on the sidelines rather than joining our conversation)."

    IOW. we can only speculate His ideas/intentions/motivations in any given situation because He will not join our conversation.

    A lot of questions arise about the Bible because the most current translations still don't use modern language. I have been told so many times something like:
    "well if you go back to the original Greek/Hebrew the word in question actually means...."
    Why do you think it has been soo long since the Bible was translated into modern English/American?

    Answer, no agreement is possible now on what the new translation would say. The Bible will never be translated again (unless God intervenes directly) It could literally start a war to even discuss it (because God "would sit on the sidelines" and not give input).

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    What exactly was your point?
    Well, let's look at the quote you were responding to again:
    "Indeed, as I have said before:
    "If one goes looking for God I believe you will find him, though if you are searching for truth, not as much""

    IOW, the former is nearly a given IMHO, the latter you may or may not find God if you are specifically searching for truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    It’s not my claim. It’s stated in the Nature article and also accepted by other physicists. I simply agree with the premise.
    Odd, but ok. It's not widely accepted and really is more of a fringe element from what I can tell, mostly due to it basically being speculation with little for support other than hope/idealism.

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    “A fundamental conclusion of the new physics also acknowledges that the observer creates the reality. As observers, we are personally involved with the creation of our own reality. “

    Yes, we seem to be involved in the process. However, being involved in the process doesn’t mean there are no other forces/factors involved. It also doesn’t mean that we can’t choose to switch out of the limitations of the human mind to something more enlightening.
    How can "an observer create reality"??
    You can only observe that which already is. If a mind created reality, it couldn't observe it till it was created, and if you mean "observing" as in "looking at something with your eyeballs" I would ask for support. There is no way I have heard of that seeing/looking at (observing) something can change reality in any way.

    Humans have a grandiose view of their place in the universe.
    From the Earth/Universe was made for us to live in, to now, the human mind is actually creating reality. We are as special bunch, no wonder we have pretty much taken over the planet.

    I found this an interesting take on how these thoughts might have come to be:
    https://theconversation.com/dealing-...trophes-110261

    “A being who knows that he will die arose from ancestors who did not know.” But evolution at some point also built into this human mind a deeply ingrained sentiment — that one has not just a material life (the physical body), but also a distinct and separate mental life (the inner self).
    Human self-awareness led to the evolution of cognitive skills that were game-changers for gene transmission success. In our degree of endowment for these skills, our ancestors had the edge over all other hominids.
    But the trade-off for this was self-impermanence anxiety — a recurrent fear that, in bringing eventual material death, time inevitably also annihilates all that one has done and all that one has been, and that soon it will be as though one had never existed at all."

    “For man to be able to live he must either not see the infinite, or have such an explanation of the meaning of life as will connect the finite with the infinite.”

    It's a thought provoking read if you have a few minutes.
    Last edited by Belthazor; May 29th, 2019 at 05:15 PM.

  6. #306
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    Re: The soul does not exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    IOW, the former is nearly a given IMHO, the latter you may or may not find God if you are specifically searching for truth.
    Is there a difference between the Spirit (God) and absolute truth -- not relative truth? If so, what do think the difference is?

    I have to address your other points at a later time.
    "The universe is immaterial-mental and spiritual.” --"The Mental Universe” | Nature
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  7. #307
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    Re: The soul does not exist

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Is there a difference between the Spirit (God) and absolute truth -- not relative truth?
    Great question

    Wait a second here....That is what I am asking...??????.....

    ---------- Post added at 05:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:35 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    If so, what do think the difference is?
    Hmmm, God exists in one scenario and not the other?

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    I have to address your other points at a later time.
    I get the time issue in posting, have the same issue meself

    I appreciate your time

  8. #308
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    Re: The soul does not exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    IOW. we can only speculate His ideas/intentions/motivations in any given situation because He will not join our conversation.
    This is a huge assumption. God is more then willing to enter our personal lives in any given circumstance. The problem is not that the Spirit is not willing to participate. The issue lies with humans not being willing to listen/experience God’s light.

    A lot of questions arise about the Bible because the most current translations still don't use modern language. I have been told so many times something like:
    "well if you go back to the original Greek/Hebrew the word in question actually means...."
    Why do you think it has been soo long since the Bible was translated into modern English/American?

    Answer, no agreement is possible now on what the new translation would say. The Bible will never be translated again (unless God intervenes directly) It could literally start a war to even discuss it (because God "would sit on the sidelines" and not give input).
    Have you ever seriously studied the Bible? Are you well familiar with it?


    Wait a second here....That is what I am asking...??????.....
    Where did you ask that? From what I can tell you are trying to make the point that people who go seeking for truth may not find it, but someone seeking God will find God.

    Hmmm, God exists in one scenario and not the other?
    God IS , relative realm doesn't affect God. But you help make my point. One seeking God will not always find God because one may rely only on the principles observed in a relative world. Relativity is simply a theory that Einstein gave us that helps us understand our world a little better. It does not affect the Spirit.

    So what do you think is the difference between absolute truth and God?

    Odd, but ok. It's not widely accepted and really is more of a fringe element from what I can tell,
    Many of our current theories were initially only accepted by a fringe group of scientists. This means little. Time will eventually unravel the questions and mystery of the nature of our reality. I think Prof. Henry insightfully points out why this is currently the lay of the land. “Physicists shy from the truth because the truth is so alien to everyday physics. “

    How can "an observer create reality"??
    Apparently through our thoughts.

    You can begin to prove this principle to yourself if you are interested. Are you willing to be disciplined and experiment in order to see the evidence of how your thoughts create your reality?

    It's a thought-provoking read if you have a few minutes.
    What may be more thought-provoking is that we now know and we can see through brain imaging that our thoughts can change our brain (structure and wiring).
    "The universe is immaterial-mental and spiritual.” --"The Mental Universe” | Nature
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  9. #309
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    Re: The soul does not exist

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    This is a huge assumption. God is more then willing to enter our personal lives in any given circumstance. The problem is not that the Spirit is not willing to participate. The issue lies with humans not being willing to listen/experience God’s light.
    Assumption?
    I have experienced the, or should I say, not experienced same all my life and near as I can tell most other people as well.

    Would you support this please?


    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Have you ever seriously studied the Bible? Are you well familiar with it?
    So you think a new Bible translation is possible? The different sects of Christianity can't even decide what the last versions actually meant, let alone how to accurately translate it into current American/English?

    Enough that I have been in a number of conversations about it on ODN and seem to hold my own. Actually, religion and the possible truths of God is why I first came to ODN


    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Where did you ask that? From what I can tell you are trying to make the point that people who go seeking for truth may not find it, but someone seeking God will find God.
    Hmmm...
    Of course people seeking truth "may not find it", but that isn't really what I said is it?
    Let me try a different tack:
    If a person is indeed "seeking God" specifically, I believe said person "will find God", or more accurately, believe they have. This is true for all religions.

    Now, a person seeking truth would only find god if god is the truth, otherwise no.

    The only method I have aware of to show god is truth, is well, just believe it is so. No one has ever given me a reason to believe one religion over another (though Squatch is still giving it quite a go here http://www.onlinedebate.net/forums/s...ally-justified!) and since they are generally mutually exclusive, only one can be true, if any....


    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    So what do you think is the difference between absolute truth and God?
    Depends entirely on whether god exists does it not?



    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Apparently through our thoughts.

    You can begin to prove this principle to yourself if you are interested. Are you willing to be disciplined and experiment in order to see the evidence of how your thoughts create your reality?
    I don't understand how an observer can create that which he is only observing, but ok, I'll give it a go

    Where do we start?


    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    What may be more thought-provoking is that we now know and we can see through brain imaging that our thoughts can change our brain (structure and wiring).
    Yes, thinking can alter the brain "(structure and wiring)", so can LSD. It makes connections mainly thru the visual cortex, connecting areas of the brain that normally do not connect (not that I am advocating it, I just find it interesting given what people that take it say about the experience...).

    Now none of that actually changes reality though does it?
    How one perceives reality perhaps, but actually changing reality? I would ask you to support this.

  10. #310
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    Re: The soul does not exist

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Have you ever seriously studied the Bible? Are you well familiar with it?
    I would say I know vastly more about the Bible than most Christians I have ever talked with.
    Does that make me a Bible Scholar? No, certainly not!!!

    Just better versed than the most Christians I have spoke with.

  11. #311
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    Re: The soul does not exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Assumption?
    I have experienced the, or should I say, not experienced same all my life
    That doesn’t mean you can’t or won’t in the future. Nor does it invalidate the experience of people who experience God’s light

    Would you support this please?
    Many people experience God’s light in their life, including me. The support is the experience. We've had a discussion about this before, "how do you experience God?"

    Enough that I have been in a number of conversations about it on ODN and seem to hold my own. Actually, religion and the possible truths of God is why I first came to ODN
    What does the Bible and its translations, which you brought up, have to do with the point you are trying to make: The Creator sits on the sidelines.


    Now, a person seeking truth would only find god if god is the truth, otherwise no.
    So it sounds like you’re implying that God=truth (maybe) but you’re not sure about the God part.

    The only method I have aware of to show god is truth, is well, just believe it is so.
    Belief is one way. There is also another method. We can come to the point of knowing truth, i.e. know God.

    Depends entirely on whether god exists does it not?
    Sounds like the illusive nature of the relative loop.

    Where do we start?
    I recommend starting by duplicating Dr. Masaru Emoto’s water/rice experiment for about 30 days. Many people have replicated this experiment and posted their results on YouTube. I have conducted this experiment successfully several times. The experiment does not prove anything, but it will demonstrate (if you are consistent and use intention every day) that your thoughts effect the water and rice that you are working with. There are other experiments you can also do, but this is a good one to start with.

    This video will explain the instructions. There are numerous videos on You Tube of people posting their results after completing their experiment.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvShgttIq7I

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujQAk9EM3xg&t=361s

    Yes, thinking can alter the brain "(structure and wiring)", so can LSD.
    You help make my point. No need for hard and dangerous drugs to change the structure and wiring of an adult brain, which science believed for a long time to be unchangeable and that we were basically stuck with it . Focused intention (thoughts) can change the adult brain and this can change our perceptions which can cause us to change our environment and our perceived reality.


    Now none of that actually changes reality though does it?
    That remains to be seen. This Professor and neuroscientist (Anil Seth) makes an interesting case and support that our brain hallucinates our conscious reality.
    "The universe is immaterial-mental and spiritual.” --"The Mental Universe” | Nature
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  12. #312
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    Re: The soul does not exist

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    That doesn’t mean you can’t or won’t in the future. Nor does it invalidate the experience of people who experience God’s light
    True, but it is odd, since I am "on the hunt" God doesn't seem a bit more available/interested in interacting with me...?


    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Many people experience God’s light in their life, including me. The support is the experience. We've had a discussion about this before, "how do you experience God?"
    True many people "believe" they have experienced God, and maybe they have, but their descriptions that I have generally heard before aren't surprising/convincing/more like hoping that is what the "experience" was. or that could be explained by much simpler means not involving God.

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    What does the Bible and its translations, which you brought up, have to do with the point you are trying to make: The Creator sits on the sidelines.
    You don't see an issue that a more easily understandable (by the masses) Bible is basically out of the question?


    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    So it sounds like you’re implying that God=truth (maybe) but you’re not sure about the God part.



    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Belief is one way. There is also another method. We can come to the point of knowing truth, i.e. know God.
    Cool, let's do it!

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Sounds like the illusive nature of the relative loop.
    I don't understand...

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    I recommend starting by duplicating Dr. Masaru Emoto’s water/rice experiment for about 30 days. Many people have replicated this experiment and posted their results on YouTube. I have conducted this experiment successfully several times. The experiment does not prove anything, but it will demonstrate (if you are consistent and use intention every day) that your thoughts effect the water and rice that you are working with. There are other experiments you can also do, but this is a good one to start with.
    I did look at this, but there is as many people debunking this as engaging in it.
    Words are a human construct, period. The only reason a "grape" means a "grape" is because you and I agree to define the tasty little fruit in such a way. The word "grape" really means nothing. If humans are alive 1000yrs from now that little group of letters will mean nothing. Actually it means nothing right now, unless we agree that it does. Did the water in the glass agree also or do actual written words have an objective meaning independent of humans?


    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    That remains to be seen. This Professor and neuroscientist (Anil Seth) makes an interesting case and support that our brain hallucinates our conscious reality.
    This by far the most meaningful part of our discussions so far
    Very interesting. Some of this I had seen, but this guy has a very interesting take as a whole,
    thank you

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    Re: The soul does not exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    True, but it is odd, since I am "on the hunt" God doesn't seem a bit more available/interested in interacting with me...?
    I think that when you are ready (or anyone in your circumstance) it will begin to happen.

    True many people "believe" they have experienced God, and maybe they have, but their descriptions that I have generally heard before aren't surprising/convincing/more like hoping that is what the "experience" was. or that could be explained by much simpler means not involving God.
    You may be overthinking this. People experience God’s light in different ways because we are all different. The path is different for every soul. But at the essence of it all, God’s light can pierce through our differences and manages to change the old man to the new.

    You don't see an issue that a more easily understandable (by the masses) Bible is basically out of the question?
    I am trying to understand what does the translation of the Bible have to do with your claim that “God sits on the sidelines.” Are you implying that the current translations of the Bible teach that God sits on the sidelines and is not involved in our life? Are you using the Bible to support your belief that God sits on the sidelines?

    How are you relating the sidelines God is supposed to be sitting on, according to you, with the Bible? I don’t understand your reasoning.


    Cool, let's do it!
    The ball is in your court.

    I don't understand...
    You stated: “Depends entirely on whether god exists does it not?”
    That statement is based on a relative frame of reference. Thus truth is dependent on changing factors. It's a constant loop.

    I did look at this, but there is as many people debunking this as engaging in it.
    Words are a human construct, period. The only reason a "grape" means a "grape" is because you and I agree to define the tasty little fruit in such a way. The word "grape" really means nothing. If humans are alive 1000yrs from now that little group of letters will mean nothing. Actually, it means nothing right now, unless we agree that it does. Did the water in the glass agree also or do actual written words have an objective meaning independent of humans?
    I might suggest that you just do the experiment for 30 days (you said you were willing). Do it with intention and focus. Try to be neutral and stay focused. The experiment will not hurt you; many have conducted it including scientists. Then after 30 days, let the experience give rise to questions you will have. If it doesn't work for you, so be it. If it does, then let that experience give rise to your questions. Experience is a great teacher.

    This by far the most meaningful part of our discussions so far
    What I find fascinatingly interesting about the hypotheses of the new sciences regarding the notion that we live in an illusive universe that is not necessarily fundamentally real and that we may be involved in creating, is that these are not new concepts to the ancient philosophies and theologies of the world. It’s almost like science is catching up (as far as what reality is) to what was realized and known to ancient sages and written about a long, long time ago.
    Last edited by eye4magic; June 10th, 2019 at 12:41 AM.
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    Re: The soul does not exist

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    I think that when you are ready (or anyone in your circumstance) it will begin to happen.
    ya? Seems a funny way to go, god deciding when it is time for me to know the truth...

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    You may be overthinking this. People experience God’s light in different ways because we are all different. The path is different for every soul. But at the essence of it all, God’s light can pierce through our differences and manages to change the old man to the new.
    Or perhaps they just think they do...


    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    I am trying to understand what does the translation of the Bible have to do with your claim that “God sits on the sidelines.”
    Nothing, you are confusing my statements.


    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    How are you relating the sidelines God is supposed to be sitting on, according to you, with the Bible? I don’t understand your reasoning.

    the original point was:

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    And I am pointing out that,whatever the universe may be, the Divine (absolute) can most likely reflect itself through a temporal elusive temporal state. From a theological perspective, the physical world, however elusive it may be seems to have a purpose for the Creator.
    And I responded:
    This of course assumes a creator from the beginning as apposed to "finding" a creator thru logical thought (since the creator you speak of only sits on the sidelines rather than joining our conversation). But ya, the Devine you claim should be able to "reflect itself" thru an illusion of it's own creation. That doesn't counter my point though...


    I never claimed the Bible supported it. Reality supports it. If He wasn't sitting on the sidelines we could ask him right now??


    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    The ball is in your court.
    Only if I can "believe" God into existence (which seems quite common for humans to do which is why I said "If you go searching for god you will find him. Search for truth specifically, not so much"….


    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    You stated: “Depends entirely on whether god exists does it not?”
    That statement is based on a relative frame of reference. Thus truth is dependent on changing factors. It's a constant loop.
    Existence is kinda the definition of objective as apposed to subjective.


    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    I might suggest that you just do the experiment for 30 days (you said you were willing). Do it with intention and focus. Try to be neutral and stay focused. The experiment will not hurt you; many have conducted it including scientists. Then after 30 days, let the experience give rise to questions you will have. If it doesn't work for you, so be it. If it does, then let that experience give rise to your questions. Experience is a great teacher.
    I may try it, but you have given no reason to believe any particular grouping of written letters has an objective meaning that transcends English as just a language some humans use to communicate...

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    What I find fascinatingly interesting about the hypotheses of the new sciences regarding the notion that we live in an illusive universe that is not necessarily fundamentally real and that we may be involved in creating, is that these are not new concepts to the ancient philosophies and theologies of the world. It’s almost like science is catching up (as far as what reality is) to what was realized and known to ancient sages and written about a long, long time ago.
    I am not thinking it is not a given that people in the distant past had some clearer picture of reality as a whole, perhaps in some ways. What they did have a ton of was superstition that still persists to this day.
    Like saying "bless you" when some one sneezes to help you keep the "evil spirits" away.

    Speaking of which, why would God grant evil spirits/doers/the devil/dark forces have "powers" that humans see as supernatural?

  15. #315
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    Re: The soul does not exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    ya? Seems a funny way to go, god deciding when it is time for me to know the truth...
    God’s 'wisdom appears to be pure, peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere.'

    Also, you could consider sincerely talking to him about the matter, even if your belief is wavering.

    Or perhaps they just think they do...
    Experience is a great teacher.

    I never claimed the Bible supported it.
    Ok, well here is what you stated:

    Bel: In context I said:
    (since the creator you speak of only sits on the sidelines rather than joining our conversation).

    IOW. we can only speculate His ideas/intentions/motivations in any given situation because He will not join our conversation.

    A lot of questions arise about the Bible because the most current translations still don't use modern language. I have been told so many times something like:
    "well if you go back to the original Greek/Hebrew the word in question actually means...."
    Why do you think it has been soo long since the Bible was translated into modern English/American?

    You brought up the Bible in the context of your statement about God sitting on the sidelines. So that was confusing to me. What point are you trying to make about the Bible if it is not related to God sitting on the sidelines?


    Only if I can "believe" God into existence
    Or if the Divine IS existence, then you just need to realize this.


    Existence is kinda the definition of objective as opposed to subjective.
    Relative truth is just that, relative. subject to change. It’s difficult to find truth because relative truth lends itself to changing, moving factors. On the other hand, we can know truth (the Divine) and experience truth (Spirit). Truth is hard to express if we ourselves have not experienced it.


    I may try it, but you have given no reason to believe any particular grouping of written letters has an objective meaning that transcends English as just a language some humans use to communicate...
    Eye: Are you willing to be disciplined and experiment in order to see the evidence of how your thoughts create your reality?

    Bel: I'll give it a go Where do we start?


    why would God grant evil spirits/doers/the devil/dark forces have "powers" that humans see as supernatural?
    What powers did God grant evil spirits?
    Last edited by eye4magic; June 14th, 2019 at 11:22 AM.
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    Re: The soul does not exist

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    God’s 'wisdom appears to be pure, peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere.'

    Also, you could consider sincerely talking to him about the matter, even if your belief is wavering.
    So far it is a one sided conversation as God does not talk back...

    ---------- Post added at 04:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:37 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Ok, well here is what you stated:

    Bel: In context I said:
    (since the creator you speak of only sits on the sidelines rather than joining our conversation).

    IOW. we can only speculate His ideas/intentions/motivations in any given situation because He will not join our conversation.

    A lot of questions arise about the Bible because the most current translations still don't use modern language. I have been told so many times something like:
    "well if you go back to the original Greek/Hebrew the word in question actually means...."
    Why do you think it has been soo long since the Bible was translated into modern English/American?

    You brought up the Bible in the context of your statement about God sitting on the sidelines. So that was confusing to me. What point are you trying to make about the Bible if it is not related to God sitting on the sidelines?
    Because we can only speculate about God in any given situation since He won't join the conversation. What is confusing about that? Christianity requires faith. By definition this means not knowing God. I don't take it on faith my mom is alive. We talk, have lunch etc.

    I brought up the Bible because since God does not join any of the conversations, we are left with old translations of what God is trying to say, and that the Bible needs "explaining" to make sense (Apologetics, preachers/clergy etc), because most people can not understand it.



    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Relative truth is just that, relative. subject to change. It’s difficult to find truth because relative truth lends itself to changing, moving factors.
    In what way is existence relative?


    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    On the other hand, we can know truth (the Divine) and experience truth (Spirit).
    Perhaps we could if either would care to join us.




    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    What powers did God grant evil spirits?
    Well, Christianity varies sooo much, and I don't want to argue that which you do not believe, let me ask you:

    You don't believe the Devil has supernatural powers that you/other humans do not?
    Can a person be "possessed" by evil spirits?
    Do you believe in demons?

  17. #317
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    Re: The soul does not exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    So far it is a one sided conversation as God does not talk back...
    I can understand that. However, as I stated earlier, that doesn’t mean God is not listening. Nor does it mean the Divine doesn’t care. Nor does it mean it will appear to be one-sided permanently.

    Because we can only speculate about God in any given situation since He won't join the conversation. What is confusing about that?
    So your point seems to be that because you think God doesn’t join in our conversations on Twitter/Instagram and Facebook account, he is sitting on the sidelines?

    I brought up the Bible because since God does not join any of the conversations, we are left with old translations of what God is trying to say,
    The Bible itself offers a counter-argument to this assumption.

    “ I will pray to the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, that he may be with you forever,--the Spirit of truth, whom the world can't receive; for it doesn't see him,” John 14:16

    Back to the truth issue…

    and that the Bible needs "explaining" to make sense (Apologetics, preachers/clergy etc), because most people can not understand it.
    Most people can’t understand it? Are you attempting to say that most Christians don’t understand the Bible?


    In what way is existence relative?
    At 18 years of age, a young man’s truth may be that only owning and driving a new Porch will make him happy and give his life meaning. At 35 years of age, his truth compass and existence has changed. He has owned a new Porch and it did not bring him the happiness he believed at 18 years the Porch would bring him. So at 35 he’s now trying to find happiness, truth, and meaning in owning yachts.

    You don't believe the Devil has supernatural powers that you/other humans do not?
    I tend to observe the concept of the supernatural in terms of energy, which we were initially talking about in our earlier discussion. Energy seems to be at the center of the physics debate over reality/consciousness versus illusion.

    As far as devils, what supernatural powers are you referring to?

    Can a person be "possessed" by evil spirits?
    If you’re asking do I believe if a person’s consciousness can be manipulated and controlled by forces overtaking his/her free will? Yes, I think this is possible. I think energy (neutral/free flowing) can be manipulated by negative forces outside of our conscious awareness.


    Do you believe in demons?
    Do I believe that some creatures have the ability to miss-qualify energy for nefarious purposes? Yes, I believe energy can be mis-qualified by what we call demons and humans for that matter and used in negative ways. Energy is rather an amazing phenomenon. It can be formatted, reformatted over and over again; and I believe it can be manipulated. If a being learns how to manipulate energy outside of our natural laws for evil purposes (devils) or for good purposes (angels), we currently call that phenomena supernatural.
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    Re: The soul does not exist

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    I can understand that. However, as I stated earlier, that doesn’t mean God is not listening. Nor does it mean the Divine doesn’t care. Nor does it mean it will appear to be one-sided permanently.
    While that may be true, it would be odd for the Christian God that wants a relationship with me (all)…
    Also, it changes nothing in the present, still no reason to believe...

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    So your point seems to be that because you think God doesn’t join in our conversations on Twitter/Instagram and Facebook account, he is sitting on the sidelines?
    Our conversation was specifically what I was discussing, but I would say that His "actions" (as forwarded by Christians) are (these days) specific to a person/small group so that others can't witness/participate/know that He exists.
    Why is it again that all are not allowed to know He exists by direct knowledge?
    IOW, faith being required seems at odds with truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    The Bible itself offers a counter-argument to this assumption.

    “ I will pray to the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, that he may be with you forever,--the Spirit of truth, whom the world can't receive; for it doesn't see him,” John 14:16

    Back to the truth issue…
    Not so much really? We still are left with the only written "word of God" can not be understood by most people because they don't understand the translation without help (apologists, clergy, etc..).


    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Most people can’t understand it? Are you attempting to say that most Christians don’t understand the Bible?
    Hmmm, I think I said "don't" not "can't" and the distinction is vast, but ya, understanding is lacking or there wouldn't be how many Christian sects?.


    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    At 18 years of age, a young man’s truth may be that only owning and driving a new Porch will make him happy and give his life meaning. At 35 years of age, his truth compass and existence has changed. He has owned a new Porch and it did not bring him the happiness he believed at 18 years the Porch would bring him. So at 35 he’s now trying to find happiness, truth, and meaning in owning yachts.
    Not even close to what I asked, you have totally evaded my question to your point, so I will ask again:
    "In what way is existence relative?"

    You exist/you do not exist. There is nothing "relative" about that.



    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    I tend to observe the concept of the supernatural in terms of energy, which we were initially talking about in our earlier discussion. Energy seems to be at the center of the physics debate over reality/consciousness versus illusion.
    Now if we could observe the supernatural instead of just/only the concept. Unless you have an example of the supernatural we can discuss?...



    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    As far as devils, what supernatural powers are you referring to?
    Clearly the Bible states the Devil has abilities humans do not have.




    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    If you’re asking do I believe if a person’s consciousness can be manipulated and controlled by forces overtaking his/her free will? Yes, I think this is possible. I think energy (neutral/free flowing) can be manipulated by negative forces outside of our conscious awareness.
    Then God granted/gave/allowed these "negative forces" ability/s that humans do not have.
    Allowing "human freewill" to be "controlled" by negative forces throws the whole "Christian freewill" argument out the window.
    God respects human freewill but allows/grants "negative forces" the ability to override this all important tenant of Christianity???



    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Do I believe that some creatures have the ability to miss-qualify energy for nefarious purposes? Yes, I believe energy can be mis-qualified by what we call demons and humans for that matter and used in negative ways. Energy is rather an amazing phenomenon. It can be formatted, reformatted over and over again; and I believe it can be manipulated. If a being learns how to manipulate energy outside of our natural laws for evil purposes (devils) or for good purposes (angels), we currently call that phenomena supernatural.
    Why can't humans do this?
    Why are these "creatures" granted the ability by God to override human freewill?
    How can anything operate "outside of natural law" unless God grants that ability?
    Why is the Devil allowed to "live" here to do all these bad things? After the fall of man, why let the Devil into the universe created for humans to live until judgement day?
    Why does the Devil not die (another power humans do not have)?

    Why did you ask:
    "What powers did God grant evil spirits?"

    when you clearly believe God has granted "creatures" the power to override human freewill???
    Last edited by Belthazor; June 26th, 2019 at 08:29 PM.

  19. #319
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    Re: The soul does not exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Also, it changes nothing in the present, still no reason to believe...

    Why is it again that all are not allowed to know He exists by direct knowledge?
    I think this is going to have to be between you and God.


    IOW, faith being required seems at odds with the truth.
    Not really, faith is a process, it’s a road with peaks and valleys and it can certainly bring us to a point where we realize, become aware of and experience truth.


    Not so much really? We still are left with the only written "word of God" can not be understood by most people because they don't understand the translation without help (apologists, clergy, etc..).

    Hmmm, I think I said "don't" not "can't" and the distinction is vast, but ya, understanding is lacking or there wouldn't be how many Christian sects?
    If this was truly so, if most people don’t understand the Bible and have not understood it throughout the ages, it would not be the best selling book of all time, decade after decade to this present day. Some people may not understand it, but some is not most or the majority.


    In what way is existence relative?"

    You exist/you do not exist. There is nothing "relative" about that.
    You help make my point. The human is here for a short moment of time, then we’re gone.
    Relative verses absolute.


    Now if we could observe the supernatural instead of just/only the concept. Unless you have an example of the supernatural we can discuss?...
    You brought up the supernatural and demons, what examples did you want to discuss?


    Clearly the Bible states the Devil has abilities humans do not have.
    Ok, well what examples are you referring to?


    God respects human free will but allows/grants "negative forces" the ability to override this all-important tenant of Christianity???
    Humans grant such forces into our world. God’s laws allocate that responsibility to man.


    Why can't humans do this?
    Why can’t humans do what?

    Why are these "creatures" granted the ability by God to override human free will?
    Human vulnerabilities grant creatures the power to influence man.

    How can anything operate "outside of natural law" unless God grants that ability?
    When nefarious forces enter our world, it is usually because of man’s vulnerability that “grants it” into our domain (as subtle as it may be). We empower it when we allow our carnal mind to rule the day. You’ve brought up the Bible, there is no shortage of teaching, especially in the NT that shows how God deals with demons..

    Why is the Devil allowed to "live" here to do all these bad things?
    One reason may be because humans ignorantly and willfully feed a devils need to exist by the squandering of our light. Devils have no light of their own so they need to steal it from other sources in order to exist. If we stop feeding a wild, dangerous animal and remove all possible food sources from its environment, he will eventually dwindle down to dust. If the human carnal mind is subdued or even partly subdued, and we allow the Christ mind to rule the day, a devil has little to no power in our life.



    Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me (John 14:30).
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    Re: The soul does not exist

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    I think this is going to have to be between you and God.
    Indeed (should there be one), cause this makes no sense at all, however, I appreciate your thoughts



    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Not really, faith is a process, it’s a road with peaks and valleys and it can certainly bring us to a point where we realize, become aware of and experience truth.
    As long as faith is required you are not aware if something is true or not by definition...

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    If this was truly so, if most people don’t understand the Bible and have not understood it throughout the ages, it would not be the best selling book of all time, decade after decade to this present day. Some people may not understand it, but some is not most or the majority.
    Hmmm, ok, then tell me:
    When someone dies where do they go? The Bible teaches you are still dead until the second coming of Christ, then you rise (or are judged...). Most Christians disagree and think their relatives are "looking down" from Heaven. My support for this is go to any Christian funeral.


    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    You help make my point. The human is here for a short moment of time, then we’re gone.
    Relative verses absolute.
    When the human is "here" its existence is certainly not relative at all. It exists or it does not. The time frame matters not at all to existence...

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Ok, well what examples are you referring to?
    The particulars matter not. The point is, the Devil has powers (per the Bible) humans can not acquire, and this is at God's pleasure....

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Humans grant such forces into our world. God’s laws allocate that responsibility to man.
    So people can only have their "free will overridden" if they "grant it" is completely at odds with your comment a post ago that humans free will:
    " can be manipulated and controlled by forces overtaking his/her free will? Yes, I think this is possible."

    How do you reconcile this discrepancy?

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Why can’t humans do what?
    Do the things all these other "creatures" you speak of can do. IOW, why are they granted powers over humans, that humans can not attain?

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Human vulnerabilities grant creatures the power to influence man.
    God granted/allowed it or it would not be would it?


    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    When nefarious forces enter our world, it is usually because of man’s vulnerability that “grants it” into our domain (as subtle as it may be). We empower it when we allow our carnal mind to rule the day. You’ve brought up the Bible, there is no shortage of teaching, especially in the NT that shows how God deals with demons..
    They can "enter our world" at the pleasure of God unless you are claiming He did not realize "demons" could do this when He made the universe?


    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    One reason may be because humans ignorantly and willfully feed a devils need to exist by the squandering of our light. Devils have no light of their own so they need to steal it from other sources. If we stop feeding a wild, dangerous animal and remove all possible food sources from its environment, he will eventually dwindle down to dust. If the human carnal mind is subdued or even partly subdued, and we allow the Christ mind to rule the day, a devil has little to no power in our life.
    That the Devil does not die is at God's pleasure not mans.
    Why does God allow the devil to have "power in our life" at al?. Now sure, free will and all, but people don't need the Devil to "sin". The Devil could die and people would still sin would they not?
    Why does my "free will" keep the Devil alive and not my Grandma?

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me (John 14:30).
    You don't want to talk about it with me anymore??

 

 
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