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  1. #21
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    Re: Christianity and the Salvation of Unbelievers

    Thank you for taking the time to respond at length. It seems inappropriate to reply without addressing each point, but they have a lot of similarities.

    Isn't the New Testament, including Paul's letters to the churches in Galatia and Rome written for the benefit of Christians, telling them how to live and worship properly? In short, how is it that directions given to them are logically applied to atheists and other unbelievers?

    Aren't descriptions of being condemned by the law aimed at Jews, and referring to the fact that those reading Paul's letters were converted Jews? How are atheists and those who have never heard of God condemned by violating Mosaic Law, which they have never been under?

    The whole point of my op is that what the Bible says about salvation for Christians does not apply to those who are complete unbelievers. So providing me with scripture about how Christians are saved and how Christians should act is not an effective rebuttal of the op. I'll read it a few more times though. No hurry to get back to me. Whenever you might have time and the inclination. I've got a lot more reading to do.

    ---------- Post added at 03:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:07 PM ----------

    Edit: I've been trying to find passages describing whether gentiles are condemned under the law. I can't find anything that says so. In Amos 1, for example, gentile kingdoms neighboring Israel are punished for things they did to Israel, but not for breaking Mosaic Law. But Judah and Israel are punished for violating the law. Do you have anything that shows gentiles were (or atheists are now) subject to the law?
    Last edited by evensaul; March 1st, 2019 at 03:56 PM.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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  3. #22
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    Re: Christianity and the Salvation of Unbelievers

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Thank you for taking the time to respond at length. It seems inappropriate to reply without addressing each point, but they have a lot of similarities.
    your response is fine.


    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul
    Isn't the New Testament, including Paul's letters to the churches in Galatia and Rome written for the benefit of Christians, telling them how to live and worship properly? In short, how is it that directions given to them are logically applied to atheists and other unbelievers?
    Well, first because it establishes that all, everyone everywhere and in all circumstances, are guilty. It commonly divides the world into believers and unbelievers or Jew and Greek. So the scriptures sees no relevant distinction. Further, it address people who have not heard directly, speaking to their situation as I have quoted. That Christians are the ones receiving the words, doesn't limit the topic to just Christians.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul
    Aren't descriptions of being condemned by the law aimed at Jews, and referring to the fact that those reading Paul's letters were converted Jews? How are atheists and those who have never heard of God condemned by violating Mosaic Law, which they have never been under?
    It is directed at jews, but speaks to those who have not heard the OT law and contrast them with the Jews who do have it.
    Saying that those who don't have the law of moses, has a law written on their hearts, both condemning and justifying.
    the conclusion is that all are condemned. the jew with the law, and the greek without it.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul
    The whole point of my op is that what the Bible says about salvation for Christians does not apply to those who are complete unbelievers. So providing me with scripture about how Christians are saved and how Christians should act is not an effective rebuttal of the op. I'll read it a few more times though. No hurry to get back to me. Whenever you might have time and the inclination. I've got a lot more reading to do.
    The mistake is that christians used to be unbelievers, and unbelievers are addressed directly. It would be a mistake to say that because a letter was addressed to a certain person or group, that the contents thus don't apply to everyone else. It's not like they are instructions, rather they are principles for all. If it says "to the church of Galatia" or "to the jews of the dispersion" or whoever.. it still applies to the atheist when it say "all have fallen short". Or "there is no other name"..
    Jesus' teaching that the road and gate are narrow, along with his teaching that he is the gate. Applies to everyone, even though he was teaching ONLY the jews at the time.

    ---------- Post added at 03:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:07 PM ----------

    Edit: I've been trying to find passages describing whether gentiles are condemned under the law. I can't find anything that says so. In Amos 1, for example, gentile kingdoms neighboring Israel are punished for things they did to Israel, but not for breaking Mosaic Law. But Judah and Israel are punished for violating the law. Do you have anything that shows gentiles were (or atheists are now) subject to the law?
    I quoted where they are guilty without the law. Because the law in their heart is a law to itself.
    Of which they are guilty.
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  4. #23
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    Re: Christianity and the Salvation of Unbelievers

    Yes. I'd not remembered that the law is written on our hearts.

    When reading Romans 2, it says (emphasis mine):

    12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but it is the doers of the law who will be declared righteous.

    14Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them. 16This will come to pass on that day when God will judge men’s secrets through Christ Jesus, as proclaimed by my gospel.


    The bolded seems to say that Gentiles may be declared righteous by following the law that is written on their hearts. Wouldn't it be the same for today's atheists?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  5. #24
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    Re: Christianity and the Salvation of Unbelievers

    Everyone who follows the law is of course righteous. The problem is that no one follows the law. The conclusion is not that anyone is justified by the law, but that everyone is guilty.
    The verse contradicts the idea that gentiles are not subject to any law, and that gentiles are innocent of sin. Even if they have never heard of the law. Which is the most relevant point. If they are sinners, they need a savior. The law of Grace through faith is the only thing that saves.
    I think it is an incorrect understanding to suppose that that the law on men's hearts can do what the written law could not, which is save sinners
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  6. #25
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    Re: Christianity and the Salvation of Unbelievers

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Everyone who follows the law is of course righteous. The problem is that no one follows the law. The conclusion is not that anyone is justified by the law, but that everyone is guilty.
    The verse contradicts the idea that gentiles are not subject to any law, and that gentiles are innocent of sin. Even if they have never heard of the law. Which is the most relevant point. If they are sinners, they need a savior. The law of Grace through faith is the only thing that saves.
    I think it is an incorrect understanding to suppose that that the law on men's hearts can do what the written law could not, which is save sinners
    I get what you're saying. But that isn't what the verses say. They state very clearly that some Gentiles "will" be saved by following the law written on their hearts.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  7. #26
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    Re: Christianity and the Salvation of Unbelievers

    First, it says that sometimes it would defend them. That doesn't mean unto salvation. It doesn't teach contradictory to no one is saved through the law. (edit) after all, that is said in the same book, by the same author, speaking on the same subject still. /edit
    Again the issue is not that some act rightly according to the law, it is that they don't always act rightly under the law. And as it is said if you transgress in one point, you are guilt of it all.

    The sense that one is justified by the law, is not salvific. The law can not erase conviction.

    Do you disagree that all are guilty? Do you disagree that Romans is building a case for all to be counted guilty? I mean that seems to be the larger point right?

    edit
    Here is his conclusion....

    Romans 3
    9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written:

    The point is to equalize jew and Gentile. those who have the law, and those who do not. It is directed at the jew, but the conclusion still applies. that is all are guilty and need a savior. That savior is not the law, but the fulfillment of the law.

    We can't just stop in chapter 2 and use it as a proof text. He is telling a larger point. The very first point is that everyone is under sin.


    edit ... edit.
    Without faith, we do not become children of Abraham and children of the promise. The promise is salvation, and the children of Abraham are the children of Faith. (romans 4)
    Last edited by MindTrap028; March 1st, 2019 at 06:36 PM.
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  8. #27
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    Re: Christianity and the Salvation of Unbelievers

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Do you disagree that Romans is building a case for all to be counted guilty?
    Well, yes, I do disagree. Let's back up just a bit to Romans 2 beginning at verse 5:

    5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.


    Explain to me how this doesn't mean what it seems to be explicitly stating.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  9. #28
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    Re: Christianity and the Salvation of Unbelievers

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Well, yes, I do disagree. Let's back up just a bit to Romans 2 beginning at verse 5:

    5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.


    Explain to me how this doesn't mean what it seems to be explicitly stating.
    But who doesn't do evil? See the problem is, that everyone fails this test and this standard.
    Good is always rewarded, but evil is always punished. They don't cancel out is the problem.
    And this verse in chapter 2, has a conclusion in chapter 3 right?
    That conclusion isn't that some will be justified by the law, or that some seek God, or that some do not sin.
    Chapter 2 is support for that conclusion, it doesn't undermine it.
    Your just miss applying what he is teaching in chapter 2.

    The ultimate problem, is that you read chapter 2, and say "See some are justified by their works and don't need a savior" (paraphrased)
    but the writer concludes the exact opposite, saying that all have sinned and fallen short, and that is why the law of grace through faith in Jesus has come.
    you just have to keep reading to chapter 3, and chapter 4. It is epitomized in saying "

    The law written on peoples hearts convicts them of sin, and doesn't have the power to redeem them from sin.

    so it comes down to the big IF statement. That is, IF you obey the law. But we are taught that no one does 100percent, and thus fall short.

    ---
    Question, if the written law given to the Jews, was not sufficient to save. How can the unwritten law of the same do better?

    Romans 8:3
    For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
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  10. #29
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    Re: Christianity and the Salvation of Unbelievers

    Yes, all fall short through sin. By His sacrifice did Jesus wipe away the sin of only those who follow him or those of all men?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  11. #30
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    Re: Christianity and the Salvation of Unbelievers

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Yes, all fall short through sin. By His sacrifice did Jesus wipe away the sin of only those who follow him or those of all men?
    He died for all, but the Gospel of salvation is to those that believe.
    Right?

    Romans 1
    6I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, first to the Jew, then to the Greek. 17For the gospel reveals the righteousness of God that comes by faith from start to finish, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”…

    So I would say to those who follow him.
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  12. #31
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    Re: Christianity and the Salvation of Unbelievers

    I'm going to offer you a narrative without further support for now, because it will take some time to put the supports together, even though I've touched on some of them.

    Jesus died for the remission of sins for all men, the world over. All had their sins washed away. This gives all men a clean slate, but does not provide salvation.

    Those who believe in Jesus and abide in Him will do good works and become sheep. Those who claim to believe in Him but do not do good works are wandering in the desert. They are not saved, and may become goats.

    Unbelievers who by their nature do good works become sheep. Those who do not do good works become goats.

    At the Day of Judgment, Jesus separates the sheep from the goats, rewarding the sheep and condemning the goats.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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  14. #32
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    Re: Christianity and the Salvation of Unbelievers

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    I'm going to offer you a narrative without further support for now, because it will take some time to put the supports together, even though I've touched on some of them.

    Jesus died for the remission of sins for all men, the world over. All had their sins washed away. This gives all men a clean slate, but does not provide salvation.

    Those who believe in Jesus and abide in Him will do good works and become sheep. Those who claim to believe in Him but do not do good works are wandering in the desert. They are not saved, and may become goats.

    Unbelievers who by their nature do good works become sheep. Those who do not do good works become goats.

    At the Day of Judgment, Jesus separates the sheep from the goats, rewarding the sheep and condemning the goats.
    I appreciate the narrative, it is helpful.

    My problem with that narrative, is that works are directly connected to the law. The law is incapable of saving, that is why Jesus Came. Jesus coming did not enable the Jews to become saved by the law.
    The basic message is to contrast faith with the law, and consistently proclaims salvation through faith apart from works. Even condemning saying "lest any man should boast". The contrast of Jew and Gentile, is that Gentiles found through faith what the Jews sought through the law. Which was addressed because it seemed unfair to the jew who was trying to be righteous to have failed so badly. Your narrative forwards that Gentiles succeed where Jews failed, but not on the grounds of faith, but of works. That seems at odds.

    Still, even if I were to grant that SOME fall into the narrative you lay out. I would say it is significantly inferior to the law of Grace through faith. Hence why we are to preach to people to believe, and not a message of you can save yourselves if you just act better. So, it would be such a minority of people, we should not be concerned with it, and should instead focus on grace alone.
    To serve man.

  15. #33
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    Re: Christianity and the Salvation of Unbelievers

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    But who doesn't do evil? See the problem is, that everyone fails this test and this standard.
    Perhaps everyone but Enoch.

    ---------- Post added at 08:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:35 PM ----------

    At face value many passages in the bible are highly contradictory. This is a good example and why there has been debate and schism on this point for a couple thousand years without resolution.

    There is good biblical evidence for judgment on works, and good biblical evidence for judgment on faith alone.

    MT lays out the most common argument for synergy, that we are all hopeless sinners who can't get by on works so we have to have faith, but if we do have faith we might be a bit less sinful going forward. You can then judge who is faithful by if they seem to be doig a bit better, but still they are going to make some mistakes because they are human etc.... Sometimes original sin is sited as why no one gets a free pass on works.

    Unbelievers either get the "better spread the word to them" or "they should have seen it written in the trees" response. Though there are those that argue for universal salvation. (Thanks folks, but really, there's no need to worry about us.)

    I think the faith synergists do better job of it than the uniersalists or works salvation sorts. They don't really have a good answer to the faith alone passages other that to cite the contradictions to them (that I have seen). Mind you, the works argument strikes me as a lot more meaningful and grounded in human expereince. I've known people with loads of faith, yet sinned like crazy claiming it was just the human way and they had a free pass. Indeed their Faith was really what was enablig that behavior.

    Lots of folks have faith, but they have faith in rather different versions of Jesus and God and good luck proving which one is real and which isn't.

    ----- in atheist land -----
    There was a religion called Judaism and they had a pretty hard ass god that looked out for them, but also held them to an impossibly high standard of righousness. They tried hard, they felt guilty, but they were promiced some day the hard work would pay off in a permanent kingdom under a righous king.

    One day a fellow named jesus observed that the Jews did a lot of judging of one another, but were ultimately not really being all that nice to anyone else. He though God probably wanted folks to be good and kind to one another so he spread that message. Since no one was perfect, it seemed foolish to run around judgeing one another and acting superior. If everyone focused on making themselves better, and treating everyone else with kindness, the world might be pretty great and God would be well pleased. Have faith, be good, and it will work out.

    This message was pretty appealing. We could all be holy, even non jews, and being nice sure does feel good. And as an added benefit there were no hight preasts looking down at you and corntrolling your lives. This whole notion that we all can find forgiveness for our sins was catching on fast.

    But of course, people, being people, don't always do nice things just because you say they should. The problem th Jews encountered, folks do what they really want to anyway reared its head. And so some folks had to remind other folks they idea was to be good and if they don't there will be some punishment. But karma doesn't seem to be a law on earth so you have to say its coming in the afterlife.

    So we have to dance a jig on the idea that you should be good, but you don't have to be perfect because we can forgive you, but don't get carried away with that **** because it ruins life here on earth so cut it out please its not like you can just do whatever you like and still go to heaven. But ya, if you try hard, you can make some mistakes. And various folks wrote some letters and such to express these ideas. Usually focusing on one or the other.

    So you get a religion that tells you to be good, but holds out a lot of hope for you because, after all, that's its main selling point and they want you to keep at least trying to be a good person.
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  17. #34
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    Re: Christianity and the Salvation of Unbelievers

    Doesn’t true faith result in true works? To me, the synergy of both rounds the circle. Why does it have to be one or the other?

    I don’t think the NT is contradictory if we study the full context. It appears, to me at least, that God doesn’t much care for a faith that is empty or hypocritical -- without fruit. What’s wrong with this reasoning: salvation by grace through faith? Eph. 2:8
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  19. #35
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    Re: Christianity and the Salvation of Unbelievers

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Doesn’t true faith result in true works? To me, the synergy of both rounds the circle. Why does it have to be one or the other?

    I don’t think the NT is contradictory if we study the full context. It appears, to me at least, that God doesn’t much care for a faith that is empty or hypocritical -- without fruit. What’s wrong with this reasoning: salvation by grace through faith? Eph. 2:8
    There are many people that have quite a lot of faith, but whose works are not what I'd call in the grace of God. Or is "true faith" more than belief, acceptance and devotion? Are you saying that to beleive magically makes you a better person? It's not something I've every observed happening to people. I've seen horrible people with lots of faith in Jesus, and wonderful people with none.
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  20. #36
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    Re: Christianity and the Salvation of Unbelievers

    @ sig, why not Enoch? Seems like a very unreasonable assumption.

    But thanks for your view of the bible, always interesting to hear the outside view. I think it does neglect the central role Jesus claim to be God was in his ministry. I mean he was t just running around saying we should all forgive each other. He was saying He had the power to forgive sins against God.
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    Re: Christianity and the Salvation of Unbelievers

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    There are many people that have quite a lot of faith, but whose works are not what I'd call in the grace of God.
    That may be the case from our perspective. However, God seems to see and know more then what we observe. Though what we observe is relevant, we just don’t see all the connecting or missing dots around someone’s life.

    One would think that the works of an adulterous women are not in God’s grace. Back in Jesus time, people who committed such acts were stoned to death. But Jesus obviously must have seen something that all the people didn’t see who wanted to stone the women in John 8:1-11 to death. Was it her faith, her love …? I don’t know. Would he have saved the life of every adulterous woman in the city? Probably not. But he saved this woman.

    Or is "true faith" more than belief, acceptance and devotion?
    To me, true faith is when the heart changes at which point works is what naturally feeds our joy.

    Are you saying that to believe magically makes you a better person?
    I think loving your neighbor as yourself makes us a better person which can thereby strengthen belief.
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  22. #38
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    Re: Christianity and the Salvation of Unbelievers

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    @ sig, why not Enoch? Seems like a very unreasonable assumption.
    Enoch was taken into God's embrace/heaven without ever dying. That's I the basic Christian canon from the Torah. He's the only bible character to get such treatment apart from Jesus who is a special case obviously.

    If you take any of the Books of Enoch as accurate he was then made an angel, eventually archangel and scribe of God. Most of the fallen angel's lore that is part of Christian mythos comes from the Enoch books. A few churches hold some of them as cannon. While usually appocrapha, some of the stories in Enoch get used in the cannon as well as they are repeated in other books, Enoch just has a lot more nitty gritty about those legends.

    But thanks for your view of the bible, always interesting to hear the outside view. I think it does neglect the central role Jesus claim to be God was in his ministry. I mean he was t just running around saying we should all forgive each other. He was saying He had the power to forgive sins against God.
    The passages used to make that claim, to me, only say that Jesus can speak for god, that he is in perfect harmony with God's will. AKA he was a true prophet. I think it is later writers, specifically Paul that develop the Jesus as God theology and through Roman authority make it into the only accepted view in the church. And he directly advised others to forgive one another.

    “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”

    ---------- Post added at 04:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:08 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    That may be the case from our perspective. However, God seems to see and know more then what we observe. Though what we observe is relevant, we just don’t see all the connecting or missing dots around someone’s life.
    That kind of argument is utterly without persuasive power. It's the same as, "if you don't see what I see, you must not be looking in the right way, there are clearly purple unicorns dancing on my head." If I can know them by their fruit, and I see bad fruit, then well, they must be bad. But no, I may see bad fruit but I can't see all the invisible good fruit God can see.

    Sorry but that's just making invisible excuses. That kind of reasoning can simply lead to any belief you want it to: Hitler was a saint, the pope is the anti-christ, and the world is flat.

    One would think that the works of an adulterous women are not in God’s grace. Back in Jesus time, people who committed such acts were stoned to death. But Jesus obviously must have seen something that all the people didn’t see who wanted to stone the women in John 8:1-11 to death. Was it her faith, her love …? I don’t know. Would he have saved the life of every adulterous woman in the city? Probably not. But he saved this woman.
    I take it to mean that he is teaching people not to judge one another for something that is none of their business because they are just as bad as she is and if we all punished one anothers sins there would be no end to it. He couldn't do it with every woman in the city because he was just one mortal man and could not be everywhere at once.

    To me, true faith is when the heart changes at which point works is what naturally feeds our joy.
    True faith is when people fly airplanes full of innocent people into buildings filled with more innocent people. A person without faith would not do things like that. You are just creating a circular argument that anyone who is good must have true faith and anyone who has true faith is someone who does good. But many people do good without any faith in God what so ever so it falls apart very quickly when compared to reality.

    I think loving your neighbor as yourself makes us a better person which can thereby strengthen belief.
    And I think it can be done withhout any belief in God what so ever.
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    Re: Christianity and the Salvation of Unbelievers

    Enock and Elijah were both taken up. If you are going to go extra biblical in the reference then you are not reflecting the majority of Christianity.

    Other than that, thanks for the explanations.
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    Re: Christianity and the Salvation of Unbelievers

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    My problem with that narrative, is that works are directly connected to the law. The law is incapable of saving, that is why Jesus Came. Jesus coming did not enable the Jews to become saved by the law.
    The basic message is to contrast faith with the law, and consistently proclaims salvation through faith apart from works. Even condemning saying "lest any man should boast". The contrast of Jew and Gentile, is that Gentiles found through faith what the Jews sought through the law. Which was addressed because it seemed unfair to the jew who was trying to be righteous to have failed so badly. Your narrative forwards that Gentiles succeed where Jews failed, but not on the grounds of faith, but of works. That seems at odds.
    It is not at odds if one believes that all men the world over for all time have had their sins forgiven. Because of that clean slate given to everyone, Christians, Jews, Muslims and unbelievers alike will be judged by their works, not by their sins.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Still, even if I were to grant that SOME fall into the narrative you lay out. I would say it is significantly inferior to the law of Grace through faith. Hence why we are to preach to people to believe, and not a message of you can save yourselves if you just act better. So, it would be such a minority of people, we should not be concerned with it, and should instead focus on grace alone.
    I'm not advocating that anyone preach works to unbelievers. Why would they believe that, if they don't even believe in God? No, I'm explaining because for me it resolves the question "Why would Jesus automatically condemn people who never hear or are otherwise unable to accept the Word?" He won't, if they do good works by following their conscience.

    I know my interpretation would not readily be accepted by most Christians. I'm open to being convinced otherwise if anyone wants to offer more Bible passages for review.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

 

 
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