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  1. #41
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    Re: An omniscient creation deity invalidates free will

    Quote Originally Posted by snackboy View Post
    What constitutes environment and circumstances? Would that include the internal dynamics of the person or in the context of free will discussions, environment is only external? For example, suppose I was choosing a paint color. I have narrowed it down to blue or sunset yellow. In reality[1], I decide blue because blue is my favorite color. In reality[2], I decide sunset yellow because a memory popped into my mind about a beach vacation trip (noting that blue is still my favorite color). In reality[1], the memory of the trip didn't pop up. So in this hypothetical, there are no outside actors influencing the decision. The same external reality up to the point of making the choice. Do this example fit free will?
    In both scenarios, was it your free will to have the memory pop up vs. not? It could be argued that, since memories popping up are often described as out of the control of the person having them and, therefore, an external factor.

  2. #42
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    Re: An omniscient creation deity invalidates free will

    I just realized that the problem I have been having, is that the OP kinda obviously smuggles in the idea of determinism.
    As we know determinism is the opposite of free will, of course it seems to be contradictory.

    All the responses I have made have been aimed at pointing out that God is not only limited to determinism.

    The answers I give here, are based on the idea that Libertarian free will is by it's nature creative in the same sense that God is creative. Also, tied into the below, is the idea that free will is not inherently a violation of God's omnipotence. As forcing a free choice is illogical.

    First, I reject that all logically possible worlds are in fact able to be realized.
    - So for example, if you are offered poo pizza, or your favorite snack. While choosing the poo pizza is logically possible, there is no world in which your free will creates the choice to eat the poo pizza.
    - Omnipotence demands that if God is the ultimate author of the will, then such a world must be possible to realize.
    - Thus Libertarian free will, is not contradictory to God or his attributes.
    -edit- Realize, is being used in the sense of bringing about, or making real.

    Second, it is clear Biblically that God places people in the times and places, that is very different than the kind of world choices the OP supposes. The OP supposes God choosing worlds containing specific choices as opposed to the opposite choice. I reject that God engages in this kind of selection.
    - It is not possible for God to make this kind of selection, because the choice you make is definitive of the choice you would make. So there is no alternate world, by making a certain choice, the person is defining the moment through their creative powers.

    Third, alternative situations, does not equate to a level of control that violates free will.
    - For example, if I throw a party and provide the food. I have not violated your free will of what food you will eat, simply because I controlled the menu.
    In the same way, God doesn't invalidate the idea of free will simply by dictating some parameters, like time and place. Especially because so much of our life is made up of reacting to other free will beings.

    -edit-
    If there are some issues from past post, I'll answer direct questions to clarify, but I think the above sums up the points I was trying to make.
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  4. #43
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    Re: An omniscient creation deity invalidates free will

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    In both scenarios, was it your free will to have the memory pop up vs. not? It could be argued that, since memories popping up are often described as out of the control of the person having them and, therefore, an external factor.
    If you consider a memory popping up being an external factor, then what is left? Before someone makes a choice they have to recall, or remember what the choices are. Is everything that a person remembers and how they remember it considered external? This line of argument seems to dither away any possibility of free will.
    Only what can happen does happen. ~Watchmen
    When the Standard is defined you will know how right or wrong you are.
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  6. #44
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    Re: An omniscient creation deity invalidates free will

    MT, before I move on to responding to the rest of your post, I want to get clarity from you on this:
    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I just realized that the problem I have been having, is that the OP kinda obviously smuggles in the idea of determinism.
    Could you please elaborate on what you mean by smuggling in the idea of determinism and provide examples of where that takes place?

  7. #45
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    Re: An omniscient creation deity invalidates free will

    Sure, the idea that God is choosing the choice that will be made, is the definition of determinism. It is presented as God choosing to create the world that you choose a as opposed to creating the world where you choose not a.

    I don't see any distinction in that idea than classic determinism.

    Does that answer the question for you?
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  9. #46
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    Re: An omniscient creation deity invalidates free will

    Yes, that helps, although I'm not clear on how that means that determinism is being smuggled in. I'm merely describing the facts. Doesn't the deity choose to create the reality which it creates?

  10. #47
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    Re: An omniscient creation deity invalidates free will

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    Yes, that helps, although I'm not clear on how that means that determinism is being smuggled in. I'm merely describing the facts. Doesn't the deity choose to create the reality which it creates?
    Not exclusively. If he was the only one involved in the creation process.. specifically of our choices. Then determinism would be the best explanation. By excluding co-creation, you smuggle ,I think, hard determinism.

    Your talking about creating reality, in regards to which specific choice is going to be made.
    If free will limits the possibility of those choices (IE one would never choose freely X), then the OP is falsified.
    There isn't any reason to think this isn't the case, or that this can't be the case.
    To serve man.

  11. #48
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    Re: An omniscient creation deity invalidates free will

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Not exclusively. If he was the only one involved in the creation process.. specifically of our choices.
    He wasn't?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    If free will limits the possibility of those choices (IE one would never choose freely X), then the OP is falsified.
    I don't see how this is the case. "One would never choose freely X" implies a limitation on will (ie.: it's not free). All you're doing is calling it free will which is limiting what appears to be a pre-determined factor/characteristic.

  12. #49
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    Re: An omniscient creation deity invalidates free will

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    He wasn't?
    Not under a free will model.
    Individuals are manifesting/creating choices and actions.

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy
    I don't see how this is the case. "One would never choose freely X" implies a limitation on will (ie.: it's not free). All you're doing is calling it free will which is limiting what appears to be a pre-determined factor/characteristic.
    As long as it is a self defining limitation, and not an outside one it isn't a limitation which invalidates free will itself.
    It also isn't "pre-determined" it is "self determined".

    Like the favorite food vs poo pizza example. It isn't an external factor which would dictate that fact, it is the chooser themselves. Which is the definition of free will.
    Remember, we are limiting the above to the same exact circumstance, not an alternate one.
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  13. #50
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    Re: An omniscient creation deity invalidates free will

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Not under a free will model.
    Individuals are manifesting/creating choices and actions.

    As long as it is a self defining limitation, and not an outside one it isn't a limitation which invalidates free will itself.
    It also isn't "pre-determined" it is "self determined".

    Like the favorite food vs poo pizza example. It isn't an external factor which would dictate that fact, it is the chooser themselves. Which is the definition of free will.
    Remember, we are limiting the above to the same exact circumstance, not an alternate one.
    But just calling it a "free will model", and claiming that people are "creating" choices, doesn't magically avoid the very real issue of apparent determinism. If you say people are creating choices, that's fine, but those people and their characteristics which influence their choices were created not by the people themselves, nor did the people themselves create any of the circumstances which influence their choices. Even in your food vs poo example, it wasn't the person who "chose" food over poo who decided that poo would taste like poo. The limiting factor of poo not tasting as good as food is indeed an external factor. Again, to support free will, you'd have to answer the question of whether Person A could have chosen to do Y instead of X were clock turned back and the situation was run again the exact same way. So far, I haven't seen a valid response to this.

  14. #51
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    Re: An omniscient creation deity invalidates free will

    Quote Originally Posted by FUTURE
    But just calling it a "free will model", and claiming that people are "creating" choices, doesn't magically avoid the very real issue of apparent determinism. If you say people are creating choices, that's fine, but those people and their characteristics which influence their choices were created not by the people themselves, nor did the people themselves create any of the circumstances which influence their choices. Even in your food vs poo example, it wasn't the person who "chose" food over poo who decided that poo would taste like poo. The limiting factor of poo not tasting as good as food is indeed an external factor.
    Your example is not limiting free will though.
    Poo tasting good is not a "limiting" factor, it is an influencing factor. A limiting factor would make it impossible.
    Such as, I may want to choose to sprout wings and fly, but reality doesn't allow that choice. The fact that poo doesn't taste great, isn't a similar limiting factor.
    Also, I would be hesitant to say that people don't create their own characteristics. Such as "favorite food". There are some characteristics that God does determine, but your being a little unclear here.

    Bottom line, you seem to be confusing influencing factors for causal or determining factors.
    If this were really a problem I would agree with the OP. Because influencing factors are inherent to any system of choosing.
    The problem is, that is at best a way to shrink where free will occurs. It isn't enough to make free will logically impossible given a God who determines influencing factors.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWjC...7A0C9B9B1&t=0s
    I have found the above video to be informative on the topic.

    He addresses limiting factors on free will, and that is the route I am going.

    Quote Originally Posted by FUTURE
    Again, to support free will, you'd have to answer the question of whether Person A could have chosen to do Y instead of X were clock turned back and the situation was run again the exact same way. So far, I haven't seen a valid response to this.
    I think this is false.
    I think alternatively, I have argued that even if that moment can't be any different, as long as it is determined so by the will of the individual, then it is still free will, and it is not a kind of God caused determinism that makes it so.
    For determinism to necessarily falsify free will, It must hold that the decision itself, is selected to the exclusion of another possible choice. If no alternative choice is possible, as caused by the existence of free will, then determinism is false.

    I think my burden here, is to show that there is some relationship logically possible, that would allow both free will to exist, and for God's attributes to be intact.
    I think I have done this. ... I don't think it is possible to show what actually IS the case. So part of me finds the burden of proof you have set to be unreasonable.
    Like what am I supposed to do, turn back the hands of time and show you an alternate choice?
    As it stands, I have shown why alternative choices are not necessarily picked by God, and possible instances where this would be impossible in a way that doesn't violate free will.
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  15. #52
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    Re: An omniscient creation deity invalidates free will

    The argument that we don't have free will is posited by the OP and therefore the burden to show that we don't is with the person who argues as such.

    So I'll take a real-world example from my life. A friend invited me out to a social event but I wanted to stay home. So I had a choice - go or stay. And I chose to go out and not stay home.

    So even if there is a deity that created the whole universe, including a universe where I went out instead of stayed home, does that mean that I had no choice but to go out?

    I don't think so.

    Because it's entirely feasible that the deity created a universe where I actually had the choice and the device that made it the "go out" universe was my choice to go out. Assuming the deity is omniscient, it of course KNEW that I was going to go out instead of stayed home. But knowing what happened does not make what happened a predetermined action. If it did, then me currently knowing that I went out in the past meant that I had no choice but to go out whether there is or is not a deity.

    Now, I've noticed that FT has not responded to any of prior posts and have some expectation that this one will not be respond to either. And that's totally his perogative so I'm not going to "tug his sleeve" to try to get him to respond. But I will note that I have supported that there can be free will even if there is a omniscient deity. So I have, at this point, supported the counter position.

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  17. #53
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    Re: An omniscient creation deity invalidates free will

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But knowing what happened does not make what happened a predetermined action.
    The above makes sense to me, and is the way I've been seeing it. The op uses "2. The deity chose to create the reality in which Person A ends up doing X, and not Y." saying ends up doing instead of chooses, as a way to pretend that a choice was never made.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  18. #54
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    Re: An omniscient creation deity invalidates free will

    @mican and Even.
    I think the OP is saying that there is a world in which you choose A, and there is a world in which you choose ~A, and God chooses which of those worlds to create/actualize/bring about.
    So then, that choice by God supersedes any choice that you make, and thus makes it not really your choice at all.

    So it isn't saying that knowing itself is the thing that counters free will, but knowing and acting off of that knowledge so as to choose one choice over another.

    At least, that the pov I responded too, so I may have it wrong.
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  19. #55
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    Re: An omniscient creation deity invalidates free will

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    So then, that choice by God supersedes any choice that you make, and thus makes it not really your choice at all.
    If you make the choice, and God chooses that world, then He is just making it official (ratifying, confirming, whatever). You still made the choice.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  20. #56
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    Re: An omniscient creation deity invalidates free will

    Quote Originally Posted by EVEN
    If you make the choice, and God chooses that world, then He is just making it official (ratifying, confirming, whatever). You still made the choice.
    The problem is, it supposes that you actually made both choices, and God Just ratified the one He wanted.
    I disagree with that premise, and challenge it on a different level.

    I think your point here really applies still, but I don't think that is the major problem posed by the OP. Or that the OP sees as a problem.
    To serve man.

  21. #57
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    Re: An omniscient creation deity invalidates free will

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    The problem is, it supposes that you actually made both choices, and God Just ratified the one He wanted.
    Another option is that a choice creates two realities and God ratifies them both.

    But even if God sticks with just one reality, it still is a reality created by one's free will and therefore, contrary to the OP, an omniscient God can allow free will.



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I think your point here really applies still, but I don't think that is the major problem posed by the OP. Or that the OP sees as a problem.
    The argument of the OP is:

    "Therefore, Person A can't be said to have free will, since they could not have done otherwise. From the moment the deity chose to create the reality in which they knew Person A would do X, Person A had no choice in whether they would do X or Y."

    And both Even and I have pointed out that this is incorrect. A person could have done Y instead of X. The reason he lives in X reality instead of Y reality is because he chose X. So he chose X even though God is omniscient and therefore an omniscient God does not necessarily invalidate free will.
    Last edited by mican333; March 16th, 2019 at 08:43 AM.

  22. #58
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    Re: An omniscient creation deity invalidates free will

    @ mican, I can agree with that too.
    There seems to be multiple solutions possible.
    Making the op flawed.
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  23. #59
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    Re: An omniscient creation deity invalidates free will

    Imagine yourself as a creator. You make two things: Robots, and Robot arenas.

    Your arenas are closed systems, in that only what you put in them has a causative effect on what you put in them.
    You are a smart enough fellow that if you build it, you understand it, so if you make a robot, you know how it will behave, and if you put something in the arena, you know what impact it will have on the robot's behavior.

    So, any time I make a Robot, put it in the arena, and turn it on, I am capable of knowing what it will do. I am an omniscient in this sense.

    Not all of my robots are the same. They have different programming and use different algorithms to make decisions. Put any two robots in the same situation, and they won't always make the same decision as the other. But, I know each one so I can accurately predict what they will do.

    Now I could go and buy a little module for my robot that gives input to the robot from outside the arena. I'm not even sure what it is doing exactly. It might be remote controlled, it might be taking unpredictable data and introducing it to my algorithms. If I install this, the result is I won't always know what the robot will do. It is not effective, to some degree free from my complete knowledge and complete control. I can no longer predict with certainty what will happen in the arena.

    I could also achieve this by introducing an outside element into the arena, say a Cat which I don't control or fully understand. Then there is a good chance the robots will react naturally, but not knowing the situation they will encounter, I can't say exactly what will happen.

    Some questions....
    Do the robots have free will because I am not actively directing their every action, or do they not have free will because I created them with a set of reactive instructions and can predict their actions?

    Does giving them an outside module that takes them out of my complete creation give them free will?

    Does putting the cat in the arena give the robots free will?

    Is it possible to give the robots free will and still know what will happen in the arena?


    First Note to Ponder
    I think what is important in this analogy is to reflect on what a soul/person is. If a soul has nature, then it can be predicted, but if someone is the author of that nature, then is that author the cause of the soul's choices or not? If your nature is immutable, then how is it different from a robot's programming? If it can change without cause, then how is it possible to predict what it will do?

    Second Note
    I'm surprised we have not seen the "out of time" argument. This is used to solve the dilemma by explaining that God is out of time. And while God does not control the actions of souls, he is outside of time, meaning he can see all moments in time as a single 4-dimensional reality. So while he did not determine what will happen, he has seen what will happen and can show up at any point in "time" and tell you what took place.

    While this is a fine solution for God's omniscience, it does mean that there is only one possible outcome for your life and whatever you do, is what you were destined to do and from a human perspective, that completely invalidates the feeling of free will. You may be a causative agent, but there is only one possible path you will choose.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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