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  1. #1
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    An omniscient creation deity invalidates free will

    Some definitions:
    Omniscient deity: a being which has complete knowledge of everything, before it happens, and even before anything is created - true omniscience.
    Free will: libertarian free will - we are free agents choosing freely every action we take. Specifically involves the concept that a free agent, in a situation where they did one thing, could just as well have freely chosen to do otherwise.

    The reasoning is as follows:
    1. The deity had infinite options of what kind of reality to create - infinite possibilities of different people doing different things (ex.: Person A does X or Y).
    2. The deity chose to create the reality in which Person A ends up doing X, and not Y.
    3. Person A has no chance to do Y instead of X, since that is not the reality which the deity created - they are ultimately predetermined to do X. If Person A ends up doing Y instead of X, this would not be because they chose to, but because the deity chose to create the reality in which they did.

    Therefore, Person A can't be said to have free will, since they could not have done otherwise. From the moment the deity chose to create the reality in which they knew Person A would do X, Person A had no choice in whether they would do X or Y.

    I'm interested in how theists reconcile the above with their view of creationism. Does the deity not have full knowledge, or are there limited options of what reality they could create?

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    Re: An omniscient creation deity invalidates free will

    First of all, knowing something is not inherently deterministic. So the objection you are raising is not really based on omniscience, but on sovereignty.
    Second, as long as a choice is originated within the self. Then it is by definition free will, even if it couldn't be any other way.
    God Choosing to place you in the 2000's instead of the 1800s doesn't mean that your choice originated outside of yourself.

    The reasoning is as follows:
    1. The deity had infinite options of what kind of reality to create - infinite possibilities of different people doing different things (ex.: Person A does X or Y).
    2. The deity chose to create the reality in which Person A ends up doing X, and not Y.
    This makes an assumption that isn't necessarily the case. In that, it isn't necessarily possible to choose a world where a person doesn't choose X.
    For example, there may be no possible world where you choose the dog poo pizza, over your favorite snack.
    Or, given the current circumstances, there is no other free will choice you would have made in actuality.

    As long as the individual has input, then free will is real. Even if that input comes in the form of limiting the number of possible worlds.

    So the Op sort of assumes away free will.
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    Smile Re: An omniscient creation deity invalidates free will

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    Does the deity not have full knowledge, or are there limited options of what reality they could create?
    Oh fun, a free will debate….

    What does God knowing the possible or probable options have to do with what reality we create?
    "The universe is immaterial-mental and spiritual.” --"The Mental Universe” | Nature
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    Re: An omniscient creation deity invalidates free will

    Thank you both for your responses!

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    First of all, knowing something is not inherently deterministic. So the objection you are raising is not really based on omniscience, but on sovereignty.
    The objection is based on the deity not only knowing, but also choosing which reality it creates.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Second, as long as a choice is originated within the self. Then it is by definition free will, even if it couldn't be any other way.
    According to free will as defined here, no, that's not free will. Further, the OP argues that the choice actually originates in the choice the deity makes to create this specific reality in which someone inevitably makes a choice to do X. The inevitability of that choice is a result of the deity creating this reality, and the person is not able to choose to not do X because, if they could, then that would mean that the deity had chosen that reality instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    This makes an assumption that isn't necessarily the case. In that, it isn't necessarily possible to choose a world where a person doesn't choose X.
    For example, there may be no possible world where you choose the dog poo pizza, over your favorite snack.
    Or, given the current circumstances, there is no other free will choice you would have made in actuality.
    This is why the OP doesn't use specific examples, and clearly sets out the scenario of the deity having the option to create the reality in which Person A does X or Y, both being logically possible. The deity's choice of creating the reality in which Person A chooses to do X and not Y is the ultimate reason why Person A chooses X. Person A couldn't have chosen Y because that would require the deity to have chosen to create that reality instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    As long as the individual has input, then free will is real. Even if that input comes in the form of limiting the number of possible worlds.
    Again, the free will we're talking about here is the kind sometimes called "libertarian free will", and includes the concept of you being able to have chosen to do something differently if you had a do-over.

    =======================

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    What does God knowing the possible or probable options have to do with what reality we create?
    In this thread, "creating reality" refers to the creation of the universe by a deity, so your question is off-topic. If you could clarify what you mean by us creating reality vs. how the OP uses the term, we can go from there.

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    Re: An omniscient creation deity invalidates free will

    @ future.
    Your denying the free will to be Co creator in any reality though. It just isn't a given that God could choose between work a where you select x or world b where you select y.
    Such a meaningful example may not exist.

    Your attempt to push the choice back from you making it, rather than to God making the choice for you to make it. Isn't clear that that is what happens given an omnicience all powerful being choosing to create.

    It is still plausibly true, that your choice actually disallows the real possibility of an alternate choice, meaning your free will linoted the world's good could choose from.
    That makes the limitation internal to your will and not some external force.

    So you could choose to eat the dog poo pizza, and your choice not too is not dictated by God by him choosing a world where you just so happen not too. Rather your choice has real effects limiting such a possibility.
    To serve man.

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    Re: An omniscient creation deity invalidates free will

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    In this thread, "creating reality" refers to the creation of the universe by a deity, so your question is off-topic. If you could clarify what you mean by us creating reality vs. how the OP uses the term, we can go from there.
    In your OP you stated: "Does the deity not have full knowledge, or are there limited options of what reality they could create?"

    I asked what does God (your deity) knowing the possible or probable options have to do with what reality they, humans create?


    The deity chose to create the reality in which Person A ends up doing X, and not Y.
    What universe, specifically planet is your deity working with here? When you say creation, are you assuming Biblical creationism tied to planet earth? If so, you may have a formula here for a different system of worlds -- which could be possible.
    Last edited by eye4magic; March 5th, 2019 at 03:24 PM.
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    Re: An omniscient creation deity invalidates free will

    I have more of a problem with theists saying that a deity has *complete* knowledge. That is provably impossible if you study chaos theory. Even with that, I think you're overstating even with limitations with what a deity can know:.

    1. The deity doesn't have infinite options at all because the number of atoms is finite. Additionally, since each "tick" of the universe is based on the previous one, the number of possibilities don't necessarily increase infinitely with time and may well end up being reduced, as the possibilities are reduced.
    2. Every person always has more than two choices so it's not X vs Y, but X1 to Xn vs Y1 to Yn, where n=.
    3. Even if there are a bunch of impossible tasks (Y1 to Yn), it's not clear whether those choices would ever be possible anyway; i.e. does a deity even have much of a choice as to what kind of universe they can create? I mean, does it really make sense for a person to grow wings and fly away?

    Finally, the argument doesn't really make much sense because even though the choices are limited does it really mean that there's no free will within? And who's to say that said deity actually *knows* that X will happen or he's playing the odds and setting things up so that a range of X and X-like occurrences are more likely to happen?

    So I think there's weaknesses in your argument that are easy to demonstrate even without a deity: teachers try to get their students to learn stuff, even though every student is different and may learn differently. The teachers use knowledge of psychology and pedagogy to limit the choices that students make: so do the students suddenly lose their free will because they have been manipulated into learning?

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    Re: An omniscient creation deity invalidates free will

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    The reasoning is as follows:
    1. The deity had infinite options of what kind of reality to create - infinite possibilities of different people doing different things (ex.: Person A does X or Y).
    2. The deity chose to create the reality in which Person A ends up doing X, and not Y.
    3. Person A has no chance to do Y instead of X, since that is not the reality which the deity created - they are ultimately predetermined to do X.
    I think I know what you're getting at but let me put it in my own words before I offer a rebuttal and I'll use a more concrete example. Instead of Person A doing X and Y, it will be me ordering a salad instead of a burger.

    So God created this reality where I think I have a choice in what I'm going to order for lunch. So at lunch I have the option of choosing a salad or a burger and I think I make the choice of ordering the salad. But since I ordered a salad instead of a burger, I am in the "salad reality" and not the "burger reality" so God created the salad reality and not the burger reality and therefore I never could have chosen to order the burger because then I would have been in a reality that God didn't actually create and therefore a reality that doesn't exist. So the only option I ever had was to live in the salad reality and therefore never actually made a choice to order a salad. I was destined to order the salad.
    Last edited by mican333; March 5th, 2019 at 08:13 PM.

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  10. #9
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    Re: An omniscient creation deity invalidates free will

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    I have more of a problem with theists saying that a deity has *complete* knowledge. That is provably impossible if you study chaos theory.
    Why would God be subject to physical theories?
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    Re: An omniscient creation deity invalidates free will

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Why would God be subject to physical theories?
    Because logic.

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    Re: An omniscient creation deity invalidates free will

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    Because logic.
    Why would God be subject to human logic?
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    Re: An omniscient creation deity invalidates free will

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Why would God be subject to human logic?
    I don’t know what “human” logic is.

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    Re: An omniscient creation deity invalidates free will

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    God Choosing to place you in the 2000's instead of the 1800s doesn't mean that your choice originated outside of yourself.
    Isn't that exactly what it means?
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    Re: An omniscient creation deity invalidates free will

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    I don’t know what “human” logic is.
    You used the phrase logic. Human logic is logic used by humans. Why would the deity be subject to logic that humans use to reason with?
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    Re: An omniscient creation deity invalidates free will

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    You used the phrase logic. Human logic is logic used by humans. Why would the deity be subject to logic that humans use to reason with?
    That makes no sense. It’s like saying oxygen is “human oxygen” because humans breath it. Do dogs have a corresponding “dog logic”?

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    Re: An omniscient creation deity invalidates free will

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Your denying the free will to be Co creator in any reality though.
    This appears to make the same conflation of "creating reality" between deities and humans that E4M is making. Again, "create reality" here means to create the universe by whatever miraculous means an omniscient creation deity possesses. Humans don't "create reality" as per this usage - are you talking about humans making decisions? And no, I'm not "denying free will", I'm explaining why libertarian free will doesn't fit with an omniscient creation deity which knows everything that will happen before it has created reality and chooses which reality to create.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    It just isn't a given that God could choose between work a where you select x or world b where you select y.
    This, I guess, is a response to the questions I asked at the end of the OP:
    I'm interested in how theists reconcile the above with their view of creationism. Does the deity not have full knowledge, or are there limited options of what reality they could create?
    So are you saying it's the latter - that the creation deity is indeed omniscient, but has limitations on what reality it could create?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Your attempt to push the choice back from you making it, rather than to God making the choice for you to make it. Isn't clear that that is what happens given an omnicience all powerful being choosing to create.
    It seems pretty clear as I've explained it. Again, because the deity chose to create the reality in which it knew you will do X instead of Y (both being possible), that means you cannot possibly choose to do Y instead of X, as that would require the deity to have created that reality instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    It is still plausibly true, that your choice actually disallows the real possibility of an alternate choice, meaning your free will linoted the world's good could choose from. That makes the limitation internal to your will and not some external force.
    Could you clarify/rephrase this? There appear to be a couple typos/misplaced words, and I don't want to interpret what you're trying to say and get it wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    So you could choose to eat the dog poo pizza, and your choice not too is not dictated by God by him choosing a world where you just so happen not too. Rather your choice has real effects limiting such a possibility.
    Reminder: I stipulated that, in the "X or Y" example, both are logically possible. Also, I would argue that it was the omniscient deity's choice in creating a reality where eating dog poo is something that isn't pleasant, and therefore it was the deity's choice to limit the possibility of someone choosing to do that.

    =======================

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    In your OP you stated: "Does the deity not have full knowledge, or are there limited options of what reality they could create?"
    I asked what does God (your deity) knowing the possible or probable options have to do with what reality they, humans create?
    You've just repeated your statement. Again, "creating reality" in this thread talks about the deity creating the universe/reality. Humans don't do that. By "humans creating reality", do you mean the choices that humans make which affect their lives? If so, then please use that phrasing, since conflating a deity creating reality with humans making choices isn't really helpful for the discussion.

    =======================

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Why would God be subject to physical theories?
    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Why would God be subject to human logic?
    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    You used the phrase logic. Human logic is logic used by humans. Why would the deity be subject to logic that humans use to reason with?
    Please keep the discussion on-topic - I don't want it do go down a D.Chopra-esque woo-woo wormhole as with other discussions in which you use similar rhetoric.

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    Re: An omniscient creation deity invalidates free will

    @ future.
    Sorry I am om my phone, so no spell check and hard to edit.

    First, God creating a world where dog poo pizza is undesirable or yukky, is not a limitation on libertarian free will. One could still choose to do something that is generally undesirable.
    That means that there could be no actualizable world for God to pick in which you freely choose the dog poo pizza.
    Which means that free will is comparable with all knowing all powerful God.
    As the only thing preventing such a world would be the actual existence of libertarian free will.

    Also, the idea of a libertarian free will, is that such a will is an exnihallo creator of that choice whatever it is.
    So while God can still manipulate the situation, it doesn't seem to make sense to speak of God creating those choices.

    Which goes back to God creating one world over another.
    It is one thing to say good could have created a world where you could fly. It is another to say Good could have created the world just as it is, save for your choice in a given instance.
    I think libertarian free will would dictate that such an alternate world, while logically possible, before the choice is not logically possible after. Meaning that your choice is what it is, and as dictated by yourself couldn't be any other way.

    As long as the will is the source of causing a world to be actualizable, it is compatible with God and still able to be called free.
    To serve man.

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    Re: An omniscient creation deity invalidates free will

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    Some definitions:
    Omniscient deity: a being which has complete knowledge of everything, before it happens, and even before anything is created - true omniscience.
    Free will: libertarian free will - we are free agents choosing freely every action we take. Specifically involves the concept that a free agent, in a situation where they did one thing, could just as well have freely chosen to do otherwise.

    The reasoning is as follows:
    1. The deity had infinite options of what kind of reality to create - infinite possibilities of different people doing different things (ex.: Person A does X or Y).
    2. The deity chose to create the reality in which Person A ends up doing X, and not Y.
    3. Person A has no chance to do Y instead of X, since that is not the reality which the deity created - they are ultimately predetermined to do X. If Person A ends up doing Y instead of X, this would not be because they chose to, but because the deity chose to create the reality in which they did.

    Therefore, Person A can't be said to have free will, since they could not have done otherwise. From the moment the deity chose to create the reality in which they knew Person A would do X, Person A had no choice in whether they would do X or Y.

    I'm interested in how theists reconcile the above with their view of creationism. Does the deity not have full knowledge, or are there limited options of what reality they could create?
    How do you know "2. The deity chose to create the reality in which Person A ends up doing X, and not Y." is true? Couldn't the deity create a world in which Person A could do X or Y, but still know the outcome of the choice? For example, I give my boy a choice of milk or water to go with his dinner. I know, given the environment and circumstances of the day, what he will choose. The assumption that I think you are making is that the deity is solely responsible for the environment and circumstances - which isn't true. It's a combination of everyone else's circumstances and environment leading up to the choice of milk or water.

    A deity can put into motion a system and know the outcome of the system without affecting the system.
    Only what can happen does happen. ~Watchmen
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  21. #19
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    Re: An omniscient creation deity invalidates free will

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    One could still choose to do something that is generally undesirable.
    That means that there could be no actualizable world for God to pick in which you freely choose the dog poo pizza.
    These two statements appear to contradict each other. In one sentence you say that someone could choose to eat poo, and in the sentence you say that there could be no world in which someone eats poo. Also, I'm not clear on your use here of "actualizable".

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Which means that free will is comparable with all knowing all powerful God.
    As the only thing preventing such a world would be the actual existence of libertarian free will.
    This is also not clear at all. In one sentence you say "free will is [compatible?] with an omniscient creation deity", and in the next one say that such a reality is prevented by libertarian free will.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Also, the idea of a libertarian free will, is that such a will is an exnihallo creator of that choice whatever it is.
    So while God can still manipulate the situation, it doesn't seem to make sense to speak of God creating those choices.
    I agree, it doesn't make sense to say that an omniscient creation deity chooses which reality to create, and at the same time maintain that libertarian free will exists. This is the problem the OP is about - that an omniscient creation deity invalidates free will. I'm not sure what you are trying to express here.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Which goes back to God creating one world over another.
    It is one thing to say good could have created a world where you could fly. It is another to say Good could have created the world just as it is, save for your choice in a given instance.
    I think libertarian free will would dictate that such an alternate world, while logically possible, before the choice is not logically possible after. Meaning that your choice is what it is, and as dictated by yourself couldn't be any other way.
    I'm guessing at these statements again, since they don't really appear to be coherent. It seems as though all you're doing here is denying the fact that, under the omniscient creation deity paradigm, it is the deity's choice to create the reality in which Person A chooses to do X instead of why which leads to Person A doing X instead of Y. You're just saying that Person A's choice of doing X was dictated by Person A and therefore that qualifies as free will. I don't see how this refutes the fact that the deity chose to create the X reality which means Person A is not free to do Y instead of X.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    As long as the will is the source of causing a world to be actualizable, it is compatible with God and still able to be called free.
    This is also unclear. Please clarify what you mean by "causing a world to be actualizable" - what is "actualizable", and what does will have to do with a world being actualizable?

    =======================

    Quote Originally Posted by snackboy View Post
    How do you know "2. The deity chose to create the reality in which Person A ends up doing X, and not Y." is true? Couldn't the deity create a world in which Person A could do X or Y, but still know the outcome of the choice?
    If the deity is creating a specific reality knowing exactly what will happen before they create it, saying they're "creating a world in which Person A could do X or Y" doesn't make sense. Again, the deity creates reality knowing that Person A will end up choosing to do X and not Y, so it can't be said that "Person A could do X or Y", since in order for Person A to be able to choose to do Y instead of X, the deity would had to have created the reality in which Person A ends up choosing to do Y.

    Quote Originally Posted by snackboy View Post
    For example, I give my boy a choice of milk or water to go with his dinner. I know, given the environment and circumstances of the day, what he will choose.
    To make this a more accurate analogy, you are also choosing the environment and circumstances which lead to him choosing milk over water. You can't then watch him inevitably choose milk and maintain it was really his choice, since you didn't create the environment & circumstances required for him to be able to choose water.

    Quote Originally Posted by snackboy View Post
    The assumption that I think you are making is that the deity is solely responsible for the environment and circumstances - which isn't true. It's a combination of everyone else's circumstances and environment leading up to the choice of milk or water.
    Under the omniscient creation deity model, everyone else's circumstances and environment are all part of the reality which the deity chose to create.

    Quote Originally Posted by snackboy View Post
    A deity can put into motion a system and know the outcome of the system without affecting the system.
    "Put into motion a system" is not really accurate under the omniscient creation deity model. More accurate would be: "create a specific reality with full knowledge of everything that will happen". Are you arguing that the deity did not have a choice of what reality to create?

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    Re: An omniscient creation deity invalidates free will

    The flaw in the OP is that it assumes that there is only one reality.

    As I understand quantum physics, there's a theory that when a person makes a decision between X and Y, they end up making both decisions and reality splits into two different realities - an X reality and a Y reality. Of course the X-reality person is only aware of the results of deciding X but regardless, he could have chosen Y and ended up in the Y reality. And none of this contradicts the notion of a deity. So that's how there can be a God and people still have free will to decide between X and Y.

    And if one rejects this theory and maintains that there can only be one reality, then free will is an illusion regardless of whether one believes in God or not because even without God, the only choice we can make is the one that we made for there is no reality where we made the other choice. So this is not a problem to lay at the feet of a deity (for if there's one reality, then there's one reality even if God doesn't exist) but just positing that free will is an illusion whether God exists or not.

 

 
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