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  1. #21
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    Re: The Impeachment of Donald J. Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=IkbRvpIMwoM

    The above link is a media reaction to the Muller Report being concluded. Basically a bunch of hand wringing on there being nothing found. Matthews saying "how can he be let off the hook" and his guest saying "well.. there isn't anything there, that is the evidence before us" (paraphrased).

    Funny that. O well, onto the next scandal.
    Except for all those indictments and convictions...O well.

    I'm sure the President wishes that it is over, but far from it.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  2. #22
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    Re: The Impeachment of Donald J. Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    Except for all those indictments and convictions...O well.

    I'm sure the President wishes that it is over, but far from it.
    All of which was irrelevant to the point of the investigation. I think the term is "ancillary crimes".
    but.. hey.. whatever spin reinforces ones political agenda.
    It is just really entertaining to see the media surprised by the outcome, you know seeing as they have been so blinded by bias. High entertainment indeed.

    Don't worry, trump will soon tweet something stupid.
    To serve man.

  3. #23
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    Re: The Impeachment of Donald J. Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    All of which was irrelevant to the point of the investigation. I think the term is "ancillary crimes".
    and you're wrong. Many indictments for the actual attack on our democracy. You know that thing Trump cheered on.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  4. #24
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    Re: The Impeachment of Donald J. Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    and you're wrong. Many indictments for the actual attack on our democracy. You know that thing Trump cheered on.
    Not really. I guess that is what the anti trump crazed left is saying.. but It isn't a very good reflection of reality.
    There is one for lying to the FBI (which puts them on the same level as Martha Stewart) , and one for tax violations (which puts them on the level of every other schmuck that doesn't pay their taxes).
    hardly an attack on democracy.

    Don't worry, there is still hope. Maybe some dirty laundry will be aired that you can dig in on. .. .wait right here, I will get my popcorn.
    To serve man.

  5. #25
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    Re: The Impeachment of Donald J. Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Not really. I guess that is what the anti trump crazed left is saying.. but It isn't a very good reflection of reality.
    There is one for lying to the FBI (which puts them on the same level as Martha Stewart) , and one for tax violations (which puts them on the level of every other schmuck that doesn't pay their taxes).
    hardly an attack on democracy.
    Look again.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  6. #26
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    Re: The Impeachment of Donald J. Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Not really. I guess that is what the anti trump crazed left is saying.. but It isn't a very good reflection of reality.
    There is one for lying to the FBI (which puts them on the same level as Martha Stewart) , and one for tax violations (which puts them on the level of every other schmuck that doesn't pay their taxes).
    hardly an attack on democracy.
    Cowboy has clearly done more reading on the subject than you MT. There is a series of indictments and cases from the Meuler investigation against Russian nationals for their election interference and espionage activities.

    What we don't have is an indictment that members of the Trump administration coordinated with the Russians on those activities.
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  7. #27
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    Re: The Impeachment of Donald J. Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    Cowboy has clearly done more reading on the subject than you MT. There is a series of indictments and cases from the Meuler investigation against Russian nationals for their election interference and espionage activities.
    What we have is a contextual problem.
    I posted how the Muller investigation failed to produce information relevant to trump and the accusations that have been flowing from the media against his administration.
    The complaint of the video was that there was no charges against trump or anyone close to him.
    to shift that into a response about what the Russians are doing apart from trump... is simply not a relevant response.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    What we don't have is an indictment that members of the Trump administration coordinated with the Russians on those activities.
    Which is kinda the point right!
    It simply isn't a counter to what I said to point to charges against other people.
    To serve man.

  8. #28
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    Re: The Impeachment of Donald J. Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    What we have is a contextual problem.
    Fair enough, but I see too many trying to claim there was no crime to be investigated. There was, it was more a question who was involved in said crime.
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  10. #29
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    Re: The Impeachment of Donald J. Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    What we have is a contextual problem.
    I posted how the Muller investigation failed to produce information relevant to trump and the accusations that have been flowing from the media against his administration.
    The complaint of the video was that there was no charges against trump or anyone close to him.
    to shift that into a response about what the Russians are doing apart from trump... is simply not a relevant response.


    Which is kinda the point right!
    It simply isn't a counter to what I said to point to charges against other people.
    "Basically a bunch of hand wringing on there being nothing found." MT post 20

    "All of which was irrelevant to the point of the investigation. I think the term is "ancillary crimes"." MT post 22

    Nah, you're not getting away with that. Plenty was found and it's not over.

    ---------- Post added at 11:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:30 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Fair enough, but I see too many trying to claim there was no crime to be investigated. There was, it was more a question who was involved in said crime.
    and whether there was enough to indict and we're still operating under the dangerous notion that a sitting president can't be indicted. Mueller did the only responsible thing - hand it in and let it be referred to congress for more inquiry.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  11. #30
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    Re: The Impeachment of Donald J. Trump

    @ sig, o yeah your right there. The problem is this has been painted by the media as a crime of trump. I mean the media harped for 2 years saying trump was working for the Russians. The expectation. Painted by the media is that trump was going to be implicated.
    What we get is that he is exhonerated... That is what I mean by nothing found. Ie nothing found in relation to the object (so called by the media) of the investigation. If this would have been simply an investigation into general Russian shenanigans.. that is one thing. But it wasn't, and the media and every one who made the claims about trump, have egg on their face.
    And to that.. I laugh. A hearty, belly laugh.
    Because the media are once again. Shown to be based hacks that in this case got played by Russia.
    To serve man.

  12. #31
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    Re: The Impeachment of Donald J. Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I mean the media harped for 2 years saying trump was working for the Russians.
    Well, yes, and there still is reason to believe he is compromised. The Steele Dossier and his treasonous behavior in Helsinki being two good examples.

    "Politics abhors a vacuum and Attorney General Bill Barr filled it Sunday when he tried to exonerate Donald Trump using the “Mueller report” as a fig leaf. Barr acted as judge and jury in a three page letter deeming Trump’s innocence without any evidence, explanation, or even the Mueller report itself

    High crimes and misdemeanor versus a legal standard that, even if it was met, couldn’t be used to indict a president.

    The only reason Mueller would take this approach is to adhere to the Department of Justice policy, not a law, that a sitting president cannot be indicted. If that’s the case then it is possible Mueller wrote a report that laid out evidence about his examination of the Russian interference into the 2016 election and Trump’s role in it, which was his charge, and the evidence that he uncovered was provided as a road map for Congress to review these matters and take action."https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/muel...-to-do-its-job
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  13. #32
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    Re: The Impeachment of Donald J. Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    @ sig, o yeah your right there. The problem is this has been painted by the media as a crime of trump. I mean the media harped for 2 years saying trump was working for the Russians. The expectation. Painted by the media is that trump was going to be implicated.
    Well, ya, generally. Though it depends on the media you prefer. The media I prefer is pretty sober about it and sticks to the facts of the matter for the most part. The media I try to mostly ignore, ya they liked to make it all about Trump and that confused both the left and the right rather badly as to what that investigation really was. Certainly, it involved looking into Trump, he is part of his own campaign, but that was not the main purpose, the main propose was to follow the trail from the Russian campaign activities and see if it led to the campaign. I think they were always looking at Maniford as their main target, though the didn't find collusion, even with him.

    What we get is that he is exhonerated... That is what I mean by nothing found.
    Ya, mostly. His overall behavior in this thing is rotten to me, but not illegal per say. He never quite took strong enough action to truly obstruct justice. The fact the probe continued is as much evidence of that as anything else. But he did anything short of that to try and cast a shadow on it and made himself look like he was guilty as hell in the process.

    And to that.. I laugh. A hearty, belly laugh.
    Well, they have it coming. Though I know a lot of conservatives that just won't stop whining about the investigation and how corrupt it all is etc.... I find it ironic because the way it was done is what makes the exoneration credible.

    Because the media are once again. Shown to be based hacks that in this case got played by Russia.
    It all works out very nicely for Russia. They get us all pointing fingers at one another for the price of a bunch of min wage employees making **** posts on the internet.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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  15. #33
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    Re: The Impeachment of Donald J. Trump

    @Cowboy, except that it was specifically stated that the findings were not relevant to the idea of not charging presidents. It found irrespective of that fact, that no collusion or obstruction.
    So... hold out hope if you like.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    Well, ya, generally. Though it depends on the media you prefer. The media I prefer is pretty sober about it and sticks to the facts of the matter for the most part. The media I try to mostly ignore, ya they liked to make it all about Trump and that confused both the left and the right rather badly as to what that investigation really was. Certainly, it involved looking into Trump, he is part of his own campaign, but that was not the main purpose, the main propose was to follow the trail from the Russian campaign activities and see if it led to the campaign. I think they were always looking at Maniford as their main target, though the didn't find collusion, even with him.
    That is of course a fair point, and in fact represents the greatest danger and challenge the average American faces. The ability to pick through the out right propaganda passing as "news" and "journalism" and find sources that are real news. I mean, I honestly don't watch a lot of cable news, but I still get exposed to the views that they are spouting. So I can only imagine the saturation someone who isn't paying attention but is exposed to it regularly would get.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    Ya, mostly. His overall behavior in this thing is rotten to me, but not illegal per say. He never quite took strong enough action to truly obstruct justice. The fact the probe continued is as much evidence of that as anything else. But he did anything short of that to try and cast a shadow on it and made himself look like he was guilty as hell in the process.
    I think this will go down as a fine example as to why lawyers tell their clients to shut up and not talk to cops. It can only serve to hurt you, and trump certainly did that to himself. I shot himself in the foot at least 3 major times in the whole ordeal.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    Well, they have it coming. Though I know a lot of conservatives that just won't stop whining about the investigation and how corrupt it all is etc.... I find it ironic because the way it was done is what makes the exoneration credible.
    The only thing I want to whine about is that there are things that trump was hung for in the media and in the course of the investigation, that Hillary(and those surrounding her) was allowed to get away with.
    It isn't a complaint about how this investigation went, only that all investigations do not appear to be equal.
    However, you are right. Basically all the voices out there from the right who complained about this being a railroading of Trump, are basically proved wrong as well. That isn't to say there was no grounds for the concern. I mean there was some very deep anti trump biases that were involved in the process. I am sure that will get investigated to death now.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    It all works out very nicely for Russia. They get us all pointing fingers at one another for the price of a bunch of min wage employees making **** posts on the internet.
    Right!.. I blame the media, and the highly polarized nature of how things are presented. The tendency is for each side to make the most extreme of positions.
    I think the major lesson people should take away from this is that "leaks" are not news. They are perversions and half truths. What kind of story would we have gotten if the media was just silent except for hard facts or maybe, just maybe the result of their own investigation. Seems like they used to do that sort of thing.
    To serve man.

  16. #34
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    Re: The Impeachment of Donald J. Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    @Cowboy, except that it was specifically stated that the findings were not relevant to the idea of not charging presidents. It found irrespective of that fact, that no collusion or obstruction.
    Who said that? Barr?

    ---------- Post added at 01:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:23 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post


    The only thing I want to whine about is that there are things that trump was hung for in the media and in the course of the investigation, that Hillary(and those surrounding her) was allowed to get away with.
    Such as?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  17. #35
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    Re: The Impeachment of Donald J. Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    That is of course a fair point, and in fact represents the greatest danger and challenge the average American faces. The ability to pick through the out right propaganda passing as "news" and "journalism" and find sources that are real news.
    I've never found it all that challenging. The problem is that most people want to hear the media echo their opinions.

    I think this will go down as a fine example as to why lawyers tell their clients to shut up and not talk to cops.
    Generally good advice to be sure.

    The only thing I want to whine about is that there are things that trump was hung for in the media and in the course of the investigation, that Hillary(and those surrounding her) was allowed to get away with.
    I blame the media for you having thoughts like that. Hillary is generally cagy and smart. She's a lawyer so she knows what to say and how to say it. Trump is a doofus who says whatever is at the surface of his mind without much hessitation and he knows almost nothing about the law. If Trump just said a lot less dumb ****, then he'd get a lot less flack for it.

    I think the major lesson people should take away from this is that "leaks" are not news.
    Why are'nt leaks news? If someone inside an organization blows the whistle on things that are happening without the approval of said organization, and it is a matter of public concern, then it is news. Leaks are news.

    Now if the leak is just, "Mr. Trump got real angry at some people." well ya, that is not news its just meaningless gossip.

    What kind of story would we have gotten if the media was just silent except for hard facts or maybe, just maybe the result of their own investigation. Seems like they used to do that sort of thing.
    Sources and contacts that leak information to you is a big part of how you do investigations of things people would like to hide.

    I think people in possitions of power and influence would like you to think that information they don't directly control is inherently untrustworthy. Don't fall for that. Evaluate each bit of information on it's own.
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  18. #36
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    Re: The Impeachment of Donald J. Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by sig
    I've never found it all that challenging. The problem is that most people want to hear the media echo their opinions.
    I generally try to see what each side is saying. So like checking out CNN and Fox. Watching what the other side omits is as informative as seeing what they are telling you.
    Also, it doesn't hurt that some of the restaurants play one or the other

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    I blame the media for you having thoughts like that. Hillary is generally cagy and smart. She's a lawyer so she knows what to say and how to say it. Trump is a doofus who says whatever is at the surface of his mind without much hessitation and he knows almost nothing about the law. If Trump just said a lot less dumb ****, then he'd get a lot less flack for it.
    While that is true, that isn't quite the issue. For example this investigation seemed very eager to use the "lying to the FBI" charge (Which is fine). Meanwhile in the Hillary investigations.. not so much. (which again would be fine). It is just too easy and recent a comparison.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    Why are'nt leaks news? If someone inside an organization blows the whistle on things that are happening without the approval of said organization, and it is a matter of public concern, then it is news. Leaks are news.

    Now if the leak is just, "Mr. Trump got real angry at some people." well ya, that is not news its just meaningless gossip.
    I'm sorry, you are correct. I was not specific enough, as I was thinking of government leaks.
    So you are correct, things like the CDC leaks about the cooking of the books regarding a specific vaccine study and autism. That is indeed news (even if it was never covered).
    I was thinking more of the leaks we see in relation to things like the clinton investigation. We saw a string of leaks from both sides.. and none of them really revealed truth, or brought to light something that wasn't going to be known in the future.
    That is the kind of leaks I was thinking of. It isn't so much about revealing something hidden, so much as to add spin to a story that is going to break in the future, or simply the sort of one-ups-manship of getting the news out first.. even if it means getting it out before the news happens.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    Sources and contacts that leak information to you is a big part of how you do investigations of things people would like to hide.
    I don't generally see that as the rule. I more see leaks as stated above. Spin and propoganda about something that isn't being hidden, rather just hasn't been finished yet. Generally it is public knowledge, or will be as soon as it is completed.
    but that is very much a personal experience sort of thing. As I don't claim to watch much cable news.. if any, I don't get to be a source for that sort of judgment.
    To serve man.

  19. #37
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    Re: The Impeachment of Donald J. Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I generally try to see what each side is saying. So like checking out CNN and Fox. Watching what the other side omits is as informative as seeing what they are telling you.
    Also, it doesn't hurt that some of the restaurants play one or the other
    I pretty much get all my news in print/internet and I don't watch any newscasts. I sometimes watch debate shows with pundits arguing points, but that isn't really news. I like to control what stories I examine rather than allowing the TV to choose for me.

    While that is true, that isn't quite the issue. For example this investigation seemed very eager to use the "lying to the FBI" charge (Which is fine). Meanwhile in the Hillary investigations.. not so much. (which again would be fine). It is just too easy and recent a comparison.
    I've not dug into that subject myself. I find Trump tends to pick some folks who lie pretty reflexively for his cadre and he does it himself a lot. So I'm not surprised if they really did just lie more. But considering how much discression they have over making that charge, and what they use it for (levarage for cooperation) I'd not be surprised if they made a decision to employ it for that reason.

    I'm sorry, you are correct. I was not specific enough, as I was thinking of government leaks.
    NP. THough I don't see government leaks as different than others, if anything, they probably matter more. But yes, a lot of the leaks we have seen paraded around are not of any real substance. I'm especially thinking of all the "Trump is angry" leaks. That doesn't pass muster as news, its just drama.
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  21. #38
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    Re: The Impeachment of Donald J. Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    @Cowboy, except that it was specifically stated that the findings were not relevant to the idea of not charging presidents. It found irrespective of that fact, that no collusion or obstruction.
    So... hold out hope if you like.
    That didn't take long:

    Some Mueller team members say final report more damaging to Trump than Barr summary suggests

    "Some members of special counsel Robert Mueller's team have said Attorney General William Barr's summary of their report did not sufficiently portray the results of their investigation, suggesting their findings could be more damaging to President Trump than Barr conveyed, The New York Times reported Wednesday.

    The Times, citing government officials and others familiar with the matter, reported that members of the special counsel's team have expressed concerns that Barr's summary of their office's findings helped solidify the views of the American public prior to the investigation's conclusions being made public.

    Investigators on Mueller's team reportedly prepared summaries of their probe, and some feel that Barr should have included more information from their summaries in his own outline of the report's findings."

    Certainly not the slam dunk that's been sold to us by the president, his minions, and the conservative media.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

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    Re: The Impeachment of Donald J. Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    That didn't take long:
    you mean before the media ran a story siting anonymous sources that pushes the lefts agenda? ... Yea, what a surprise.

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    "Some members of special counsel Robert Mueller's team have said Attorney General William Barr's summary of their report did not sufficiently portray the results of their investigation, suggesting their findings could be more damaging to President Trump than Barr conveyed, The New York Times reported Wednesday.
    No duh it could be damaging. Private details about a persons life that can be spun in a negative way, or even that are negative by nature can be "damaging".
    The problem that we should be concerned with is legality. Trump sleeping with Russian prostitutes could be "damaging" but that isn't particularly illegal.

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    Certainly not the slam dunk that's been sold to us by the president, his minions, and the conservative media.
    What do you mean not a slam dunk? I mean, you have vague language about "damaging", you have Muller working on the reports release, and not complaining.
    You literally have no new information, and yet want to shift the view as less solidified. There is no happy way to spin it for libs. The Report is not bad for trump, because it doesn't conclude collusion, or obstruction.
    That is what was expected by the dems, what was trumpeted by the media, and what some ex FBI claimed would happen.
    It simply isn't the case and as hard as libs may wish.. it still isn't.

    The spin is going to be that the libs know better than the head investigator. They will parade officials in the FBI that have a different opinion. But none of it will change the substance and lack of evidence actually found. Please do this.. please cry about this till the 2020 elections. It will be so great to watch trump beat libs over the heads with the official findings.
    To serve man.

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    Re: The Impeachment of Donald J. Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Trump sleeping with Russian prostitutes could be "damaging" but that isn't particularly illegal.
    True. But lying about it would show how he is compromised about it and therefore in violation of his oath of office.

    ---------- Post added at 09:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:31 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    The Report is not bad for trump, because it doesn't conclude collusion, or obstruction.
    That's what I mean by not being a slam dunk. That's why you didn't answer my question (now a challenge {challenge thingy}) about where you got your information from. Clearly it is from Barr and Barr alone, who was hand picked by Trump to bury and discredit this report - it is what Barr seemed to suggest he would do in his application letter. The same type of cover-up Barr engaged in with Iran-Contra.
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