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  1. #81
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    Re: The Impeachment of Donald J. Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    "Input" does not equal the mandate and ability to actually spend the money!

    How many miles of wall has the Donald actually been able to get funded (just a presidential for instance, we could use another example with another president)?
    Right indeed, I'm sure you could look up how much he took from the pentagon budget by declaring an emergency...no congressional input...just the opposite in fact.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  2. #82
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    Re: The Impeachment of Donald J. Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Right indeed, I'm sure you could look up how much he took from the pentagon budget by declaring an emergency...no congressional input...just the opposite in fact.
    It appears he might get from one to several billon $'s from the pentagon for his wall. It's not a done deal yet.

    (aside: I'm not sure he even cares about the wall so much, but it was something that helped get him elected so he is trying to get it done. Similar to Al gore supporting adding corn based ethanol to gasoline:
    http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/...ve-suppor.html
    " Former vice president Al Gore said Monday that he regrets supporting first-generation corn-based ethanol subsidies while he was in office.
    Reuters reports that Gore said his support for corn-based ethanol subsidies was rooted more in his desire to cultivate farm votes for his presidential run in 2000 than in doing what was right for the environment:")



    So he may direct a couple $ billion out of a $1.6 trillion budget, and has to declare an emergency to do it. I guess that is near total control after all...

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  4. #83
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    Re: The Impeachment of Donald J. Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Wow, we made a bit of progress there (the part you agreed it is true)!

    It really matters little who's idea it was originally (except to show who the original asshole was for posterity, which I have no issue with), what matters is both parties actions since the idea was conceived, and they both agree staggering debt is ok (based on our staggering debt that is the result of both parties!!). Both parties have agreed since Reagan, stealing from (barrowing from) SS is ok.

    Show me in the Democrat platform that our debt is an issue they want to solve


    "Democrats understand responsible fiscal stewardship is key to American democracy and to the country’s long-term economic prosperity. We believe that by making those at the top and the largest corporations pay their fair share we can pay for ambitious progressive investments that create good-paying jobs and offer security to working families without adding to the debt. This stands in contrast to Donald Trump, whose plans could add more than $30 trillion to the debt and who casually suggests defaulting on America’s debt, ending more than 200 years in which the full faith and credit of the United States has been sacrosanct.

    We will also ensure that new spending and tax cuts are offset so that they do not add to the nation’s debt over time. We will tackle waste, fraud, and abuse to make sure government dollars are spent wisely and efficiently. Democrats believe that we should not be contracting, outsourcing, or privatizing work that is inherently governmental in nature, including postal services, school services, and state and local government services. We are committed to a strong, effective, accountable civil service, delivering the quality public services Americans have every right to expect."https://democrats.org/about/party-pl...nomic-fairness

    Why would borrowing not be ok? Especially if you pay something back with interest.

    Regardless, SS is not a retirement account, it is retirement insurance and, as originally designed, had no trust fund and generally zeroed out every year. The trust fund was designed in the early 80s to take care of the baby boomer bulge we are now experiencing.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  5. #84
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    Re: The Impeachment of Donald J. Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    "Democrats understand responsible fiscal stewardship is key to American democracy and to the country’s long-term economic prosperity....
    My bad, I totally feel sooo stupid for often posting so fast for lack of time I don't hit the mark....

    I really meant what have they done and are doing to respond to our debt crisis. Talk is pretty cheap with both parties.

    ---------- Post added at 07:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:04 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    We will also ensure that new spending and tax cuts are offset so that they do not add to the nation’s debt over time....
    Let's start here:
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikepat.../#7e70148e4bf2
    " Using the data from 1913 through the end of 2011, the correlation between the maximum marginal income tax bracket and total Federal receipts is a negative 0.50. In simple terms, when taxes are cut, Federal revenue has a very strong tendency to rise! And when taxes are raised, government revenue has a strong tendency to fall."

    The problem is, BOTH parties are willing to spend well more than $1 for every $1 collected. At the moment nearing $1.50 spent for every $1.00 collected. So spending at the moment matters more than revenue. So whether tax cuts generate or cost revenue only matters as to how much congress can leverage the revenue they get!

    ---------- Post added at 07:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:12 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Regardless, SS is not a retirement account, it is retirement insurance and, as originally designed, had no trust fund and generally zeroed out every year. The trust fund was designed in the early 80s to take care of the baby boomer bulge we are now experiencing.

    You are incorrect about the SSTF:

    https://www.ssa.gov/OACT/STATS/table4a3.html

    It has never "zeroed out" in any yr and it started in 1957, and the problem is, because our economy doesn't grow fast enough to make the payments on our borrowing (even when we are barrowing from US citizens money) we will one day default.

  6. #85
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    Re: The Impeachment of Donald J. Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    My bad, I totally feel sooo stupid for often posting so fast for lack of time I don't hit the mark....

    I really meant what have they done and are doing to respond to our debt crisis. Talk is pretty cheap with both parties.
    That's definitely moving the goal posts. The democrats are currently in control of one part of the legislative branch with the other two firmly in conservative control. So "are doing" you can easily look up HR 1 - I believe I had a thread about it.

    What they have "done" I'll refer you to my previous post about the surplus budget. Even when Obama had the executive branch he was not in a position to do much and had to result to drastic tactics to get something done on healthcare - which he did despite the republicans. Democrats are the only ones between the two parties that will even go near healthcare.

    ---------- Post added at 09:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:13 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post


    You are incorrect about the SSTF:

    https://www.ssa.gov/OACT/STATS/table4a3.html

    It has never "zeroed out" in any yr and it started in 1957, and the problem is, because our economy doesn't grow fast enough to make the payments on our borrowing (even when we are barrowing from US citizens money) we will one day default.
    Sure, I stand corrected. What I meant to say is that it will zero out over time. As to defaulting, that is impossible as those treasuries are secured by the constitution.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  7. #86
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    Re: The Impeachment of Donald J. Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    The democrats are currently in control of one part of the legislative branch with the other two firmly in conservative control. So "are doing" you can easily look up HR 1 - I believe I had a thread about it.
    IOW's, little to offer...

    If either party really cared about the deficit I wouldn't have to bring it up, it would be the news of the day instead of asinine "wall" news (or other dribble...).



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Sure, I stand corrected. What I meant to say is that it will zero out over time. As to defaulting, that is impossible as those treasuries are secured by the constitution.
    I do appreciate you saying that you had misunderstood that point, it is too common for people to never admit as much.

    However, the rest of your comment is incorrect about what the SS issue is really all about, but it is sooo far off topic for this thread (even for me the a conversational tangent king!) we should discuss it in a thread about SS.

    Would you care to?

  8. #87
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    Re: The Impeachment of Donald J. Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    IOW's, little to offer...
    Not at all.

    ---------- Post added at 01:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:07 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    I do appreciate you saying that you had misunderstood that point, it is too common for people to never admit as much.

    However, the rest of your comment is incorrect about what the SS issue is really all about, but it is sooo far off topic for this thread (even for me the a conversational tangent king!) we should discuss it in a thread about SS.

    Would you care to?
    No, you're welcome to.

    What is your point about SS then? Since the trust fund isn't necessary - it's nice that most of the years there's been a surplus and that plans were made for retiring boomers - and that whatever has been borrowed must be paid back (with interest).
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  9. #88
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    Re: The Impeachment of Donald J. Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Not at all.[COLOR="Silver"]
    A pile of legislation that doesn't fit my question noted...


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    No, you're welcome to.

    What is your point about SS then? Since the trust fund isn't necessary - it's nice that most of the years there's been a surplus and that plans were made for retiring boomers - and that whatever has been borrowed must be paid back (with interest).

    If the "trust fund" were left alone as designed, it would not currently be scheduled around 2030 to be paying approx. $0.74 per each $1.00 owed to each recipient.
    We currently barrow $0.50 for every $1.00 the Fed spends. We can not "pay it back with interest" on our current path!

    Further, "plans have not been made for retiring boomers" and that is why SS will not have the funds to pay recipients at their full benefit approx. ten yrs from now....

  10. #89
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    Re: The Impeachment of Donald J. Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    A pile of legislation that doesn't fit my question noted...





    If the "trust fund" were left alone as designed, it would not currently be scheduled around 2030 to be paying approx. $0.74 per each $1.00 owed to each recipient.
    We currently barrow $0.50 for every $1.00 the Fed spends. We can not "pay it back with interest" on our current path!

    Further, "plans have not been made for retiring boomers" and that is why SS will not have the funds to pay recipients at their full benefit approx. ten yrs from now....
    What is your question? Is it a debt crisis? A deficit crisis? A problem with SS?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  11. #90
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    Re: The Impeachment of Donald J. Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    What is your question?
    I was looking of support (by their actions) that Dem's are actually trying to be financially responsible.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Is it a debt crisis? A deficit crisis? A problem with SS?
    All of those things (amongst others) are an issue to the future of the US but:

    the point of comment was to show "we" can not pay the debt back to "SS with interest" because we already barrow 1/2 of what we spend and for the Gov't to "pay interest" back to SS, MEANS they have to take more money away from people/businesses to pay the interest or barrow more money to pay that interest. Can you not see this won't work?
    No plans "have been made for retiring boomers" and between entitlement spending, defense spending, servicing the existing debt, and increasing how fast debt is accumulated each yr we are not on a sustainable course (think of it as "the greenhouse affect" only concerning money/solvency instead of climate!). Especially if we are limiting immigration, as spending of this nature demands a growing population (tax extraction base), and since the birth rate in the US keeps dropping, we are left few other choices.

    Both parties put and keep us on this unsustainable path. They both suck, and we should demand more of elected officials. They should be more accountable and I would wager that most, or at least waaaay too many, people that have been in congress should be arrested (actually many of them are convicted felons) for things they have done while in office.

  12. #91
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    Re: The Impeachment of Donald J. Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    No plans "have been made for retiring boomers"
    That's simply not true. Increases in payments, which went to the trust fund and which is why it is not so high, began in the early 80s. Democrats have been talking about remedies for further out, such as Sanders wanting to raise the cap. Republicans are unresponsive.

    ---------- Post added at 04:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:37 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post

    the point of comment was to show "we" can not pay the debt back to "SS with interest" because we already barrow 1/2 of what we spend and for the Gov't to "pay interest" back to SS, MEANS they have to take more money away from people/businesses to pay the interest or barrow more money to pay that interest. Can you not see this won't work?
    Why not? Doesn't matter really. Those obligations must be paid according to the constitution. I think you're making the false analogy often touted by republicans that the budget must be balanced like you balance your household budget...which really isn't balanced and is also full of "unfunded liabilities" especially if you have a mortgage.

    ---------- Post added at 04:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:41 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    I was looking of support (by their actions) that Dem's are actually trying to be financially responsible.
    I've already submitted their platform, their legislative progress (such as medicare for all), and let's add their fiscal responsibility concerning border security.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  13. #92
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    Re: The Impeachment of Donald J. Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    That's simply not true. Increases in payments, which went to the trust fund and which is why it is not so high, began in the early 80s....
    This doesn't make sense? What "increase in payments"?

    There is currently no plan in place to be able to pay boomers the benefit they are entitled. Again, boomers at the moment can expect to get approx. 74% of that in the next ten yrs, then it gets worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Why not? Doesn't matter really. Those obligations must be paid according to the constitution. I think you're making the false analogy often touted by republicans that the budget must be balanced like you balance your household budget...which really isn't balanced and is also full of "unfunded liabilities" especially if you have a mortgage.[COLOR="Silver"]
    Wow!
    "Why cant we pay it back" and then say "it doesn't matter" if we can pay it back? If we don't pay it back retirees don't get paid, how will they pay bills or eat?

    A bank will not loan you money for a house if it doesn't appear you can pay it back. If your debt to income level is too high for instance (which is exactly the issue the US faces. Have you watched Greece, Spain, Venezuela, or Argentina struggle with this same issue?) either you won't get a loan or will pay sky high interests rates.

    I never said the US must balance the budget to stay (get) solvent, but spending cannot vastly outpace the growth of the economy indefinitely!

    You sound like you think the US couldn't go bankrupt or lose the ability to barrow continually increasing amounts of money.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I've already submitted their platform, their legislative progress (such as medicare for all), and let's add their fiscal responsibility concerning border security.
    Medicare for all is another HUGE expense. Where does that money come from, barrowing more?

    Entitlement spending in the US at it's current rate is not sustainable.

  14. #93
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    Re: The Impeachment of Donald J. Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    This doesn't make sense? What "increase in payments"?
    These were made in 1983 under Greenspan.

    ---------- Post added at 11:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:37 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Again, boomers at the moment can expect to get approx. 74% of that in the next ten yrs, then it gets worse.
    Where did you get this from?

    ---------- Post added at 11:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:38 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Wow!
    "Why cant we pay it back" and then say "it doesn't matter" if we can pay it back? If we don't pay it back retirees don't get paid, how will they pay bills or eat?

    A bank will not loan you money for a house if it doesn't appear you can pay it back. If your debt to income level is too high for instance (which is exactly the issue the US faces. Have you watched Greece, Spain, Venezuela, or Argentina struggle with this same issue?) either you won't get a loan or will pay sky high interests rates.

    I never said the US must balance the budget to stay (get) solvent, but spending cannot vastly outpace the growth of the economy indefinitely!

    You sound like you think the US couldn't go bankrupt or lose the ability to barrow continually increasing amounts of money.
    Possibly. How likely do you think that is and based on what? That people want to borrow from us (buy our treasuries) is a good thing. They are still the most stable investment product on the planet...ever...and will continue to be so as long as there is a constitution. If there isn't, well, you'll have bigger problems to worry about.

    ---------- Post added at 11:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:43 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post

    Medicare for all is another HUGE expense. Where does that money come from, barrowing more?

    Entitlement spending in the US at it's current rate is not sustainable.
    I agree. Medicare part D was sabotaged by the republicans and big pharma interests. 2k for a drug here where it is $8 in Australia? Medicare also runs a much lower administration cost than private insurance.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  15. #94
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    Re: The Impeachment of Donald J. Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    These were made in 1983 under Greenspan.[COLOR="Silver"]
    I have no idea what you are talking about and I lived thru that time period.
    What "increase in payments" are you talking about?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Where did you get this from?[COLOR="Silver"]
    All are estimates of course, but the info is readily available:

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/when-wi...l-obligations/
    "Medicare insolvency seen in 7 years, Social Security in 16"

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/will-so...-out-of-money/
    "Because future taxes are projected to fall short of benefit payments, Goss and his actuarial team project that the combined Social Security Trust fund will run dry in 2033. At that time, benefits to retirees and other beneficiaries in that year would need to be reduced by about 23 percent in aggregate."

    http://money.com/money/3967821/socia...ust-fund-2034/
    "Social Security will have to start eating into its past surplus to pay beneficiaries—and 2034 is the year that the surplus is currently expected to run out."
    "The trustees warned that a similar moment of reckoning could be coming much sooner for those who get Social Security disability payments. The trust fund that specifically supports disability insurance is scheduled to run out next year."

    So, next year is an issue if you have a disability and are on SS.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Possibly. How likely do you think that is and based on what? That people want to borrow from us (buy our treasuries) is a good thing.
    It is at some near future point a given on our current path.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    They are still the most stable investment product on the planet...ever...and will continue to be so as long as there is a constitution. If there isn't, well, you'll have bigger problems to worry about.[COLOR="Silver"]
    True, even China buys our bonds...currently, but why do you think the constitution will protect the US from bankruptcy/insolvency?


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I agree. Medicare part D was sabotaged by the republicans and big pharma interests. 2k for a drug here where it is $8 in Australia? Medicare also runs a much lower administration cost than private insurance.
    Actually the reality is, entitlement spending (as is ALL spending in WA DC) is increasing at a faster rate than the Govt's ability to meet the benefits required.

  16. #95
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    Re: The Impeachment of Donald J. Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    I have no idea what you are talking about and I lived thru that time period.
    What "increase in payments" are you talking about?
    I don't know how you could've missed it. It was big news as they were running out of money that summer, not in ten years.

    "Advances scheduled increases in Social Security tax rates. Social Security tax rates (which include the Hospital Insurance tax rates) for employers and employees will increase to 7.0 percent in 1984, {1} 7.05 percent in 1985, 7.15 percent in 1986-87, 7.51 percent in 1988-89 and 7.65 percent in 1990 and thereafter."

    https://www.ssa.gov/history/1983amend.html

    ---------- Post added at 11:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:34 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post

    True, even China buys our bonds...currently, but why do you think the constitution will protect the US from bankruptcy/insolvency?
    Because of Article 14, Section 4. The debts must be paid.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  17. #96
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    Re: The Impeachment of Donald J. Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Because of Article 14, Section 4. The debts must be paid.
    And if there is no money to pay with, then what?

  18. #97
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    Re: The Impeachment of Donald J. Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    And if there is no money to pay with, then what?
    If there's no money then, again, you'll have a lot more to worry about.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

 

 
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