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Thread: Cheating is OK

  1. #1
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    Cheating is OK

    Cheating is OK when you disagree with the rules.

    The recent college admissions scandal really doesn't pose a problem if you're a parent trying to get your kid into a school. It seems many paid for admission more than the actual cost of the education. So they would've happily paid the tuition, maybe even more, to get their darlings into their school of choice. These pesky admissions standards and procedures just get in the way.

    Similarly, people who don't believe there should be taxes believe there is no wrong in doing dubious, even illegal, things to avoid them.

    Nice guys really do finish last and those who follow the rules are truly suckers.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  2. #2
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    Re: Cheating is OK

    Yes, nice guys do finish last but thatís not the right way to look at it. The best way to look at it is that those that are smart and can work loopholes in the system AND get away with it AND willing to take risks will gain more than those that canít or wonít.

    The more one is willing to risk, the more they will gain - that is almost a natural law in everything. Those that wish to stay within the boundaries and get what everyone else gets will be lost in the masses.

    We are lucky we live in a system where the more risk averse get rewarded but I donít condemn those that try our new ideas to get their way. Iím actually surprised that there are even laws against such things - rich people donating to colleges to get their kids in has always been a thing. Since when did being wealthy become a bad thing!

  3. #3
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    Re: Cheating is OK

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    Yes, nice guys do finish last but that’s not the right way to look at it. The best way to look at it is that those that are smart and can work loopholes in the system AND get away with it AND willing to take risks will gain more than those that can’t or won’t.
    For the purposes here let's define finding a loophole as not breaking the rules. It's finding a way through by, say, finding some variant that was overlooked or not covered by the rules.

    ---------- Post added at 08:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:31 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    I’m actually surprised that there are even laws against such things - rich people donating to colleges to get their kids in has always been a thing. Since when did being wealthy become a bad thing!
    Indeed, would it have been more to just donate to the school? Would anyone have even known? For real I mean, people kind of assume wealthy/powerful/famous children get in for reasons beyond merit.

    Is there some reward or penalty (like socially) to getting into school on your own merits? The one daughter made a youtube video saying she didn't even care about school itself, rather she wanted to go to parties and game day. So why didn't her parents just pay her way in?

    There must be something else. Seems like it is something akin to stolen valor. Being able to say, "yes, my dad is a wealthy senator, but I got into Yale on my own merit...you can check with admissions." If you can't for real then cheat.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

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    Re: Cheating is OK

    I feel like this was intended to be satirical.

    But ya, following the rules isn't always the morally right thing to do. If the rules say you can own other human beings, then freeing them is theft but still the morally right thing to do if you find slavery immoral.

    But, not being able to cheat at exams or buy your kids college entrance is not something most folks argue is moral behavior. I suspect the people doing it would mostly agree. They just decided to be selfish about it. People are apt to do that sometimes. Been there myself from time to time in my life.

    Heck, I'm not even very invested in the morality of this case. Rich people cheating to get into rich schools that are at least partly expensive simply because there is a sense of prestige about attending them due to them being so expensive. It's no harm to me if they cheat at it since I'm not in the running. But I'd say it is bad behavior overall. If you want to go to the institution so badly, one would think you would want to preserve its honor and reputation rather than sully it.
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    Re: Cheating is OK

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    But I'd say it is bad behavior overall. If you want to go to the institution so badly, one would think you would want to preserve its honor and reputation rather than sully it.
    That's what I was trying to get at in my last post. Why not just walk in and offer to pay double what it would normally cost? There has to be an element of getting in on merit that has value also that would influence people to cheat.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

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    Re: Cheating is OK

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    That's what I was trying to get at in my last post. Why not just walk in and offer to pay double what it would normally cost? There has to be an element of getting in on merit that has value also that would influence people to cheat.
    With a games perspective, it is interesting. If it was truly just the most money gets you in, then it would lose its perceived value as prestigious and people would be less willing to pay. So if you openly took bribes, you would remove the motivation for the bribes.

    So you need a dance wherein the reality is that money gets you in, but the perception is that it is merit that gets you in.
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    Re: Cheating is OK

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    If it was truly just the most money gets you in, then it would lose its perceived value as prestigious and people would be less willing to pay.
    True, good point. But wouldn't they just be able to keep it on the DL? Daddy's name doesn't necessarily need to be on the side of a building.

    I suppose there must be some type of legal requirement for reporting donations. Maybe moreso at a public university (???...dunno).

    Applications and grades are private and can't be looked at so it seems bragging rights are what's important - "my darling got in on her hard work and smarts" - which seems to be the case here with the mother bringing it up on whatever talk show she was on. If you didn't care about that and rather cared about getting a good education then "**** yeah, mom bought my way in, so what?"
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

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    Re: Cheating is OK

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    For the purposes here let's define finding a loophole as not breaking the rules. It's finding a way through by, say, finding some variant that was overlooked or not covered by the rules.
    Breaking the rules and not getting caught is also valid strategy! Thatís what hundreds of parents have apparently done and theyíre now all exposed.


    Indeed, would it have been more to just donate to the school? Would anyone have even known? For real I mean, people kind of assume wealthy/powerful/famous children get in for reasons beyond merit.
    Thatís the most puzzling part of this.


    Is there some reward or penalty (like socially) to getting into school on your own merits? The one daughter made a youtube video saying she didn't even care about school itself, rather she wanted to go to parties and game day. So why didn't her parents just pay her way in?
    Thatís the thing - in the case of that girl, it was just done for some kind of prestige. For others, theyíre looking for a good degree and a career afterwards.


    There must be something else. Seems like it is something akin to stolen valor. Being able to say, "yes, my dad is a wealthy senator, but I got into Yale on my own merit...you can check with admissions." If you can't for real then cheat.
    I think this stuff is all hidden and masked. There was a story that some kid got in on athletics through his parents but when he joined, because he didnít know what was done to get him in, he said he never did athletics. Still stayed in though. So no one is really verifying this stuff.

  10. #9
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    Re: Cheating is OK

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Cheating is OK when you disagree with the rules.

    The recent college admissions scandal really doesn't pose a problem if you're a parent trying to get your kid into a school. It seems many paid for admission more than the actual cost of the education. So they would've happily paid the tuition, maybe even more, to get their darlings into their school of choice. These pesky admissions standards and procedures just get in the way.

    Similarly, people who don't believe there should be taxes believe there is no wrong in doing dubious, even illegal, things to avoid them.

    Nice guys really do finish last and those who follow the rules are truly suckers.
    Cheating is OK when you disagree with the rules.

    The growing number of families illegally crossing the border really doesn't matter to no-border and no-rules Leftists. Parents should do anything possible to get their little darlings into the country of their choice. Those pesky immigration rules are just something to ignore. Honest immigrants who follow the rules and wait in line are truly suckers.

    The only reason you think college admissions cheating is wrong, Cowboy, is because it is the rich spending money to break the rules. When the poor or Leftists (Antifa, BLM) break the rules, you applaud.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  11. #10
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    Re: Cheating is OK

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post

    The growing number of families illegally crossing the border really doesn't matter to no-border and no-rules Leftists. Parents should do anything possible to get their little darlings into the country of their choice. Those pesky immigration rules are just something to ignore. Honest immigrants who follow the rules and wait in line are truly suckers.
    I agree that's cheating. But does it matter if all they are doing is coming to go to Disney Land. I mean in that case, who cares as long as they spend money in the country? But I did notice you left out the businesses who look the other way in regards to employment verification, visa status, or how about the drywaller who stops and picks up his day laborers (who he pays in cash and off the books) at Home Depot? Doesn't seem like you consider that cheating. Or how about Home Depot, for that matter, allowing loitering and that kind of business being conducted in their parking lots? Not cheating, right?

    Let's not forget the landlords (including long stay hotels and motels) providing housing to these people.

    ---------- Post added at 09:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:28 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post

    The only reason you think college admissions cheating is wrong, Cowboy, is because it is the rich spending money to break the rules.
    I don't think you could possibly know how I define 'rich'. I'm not sure exactly where these parent's lie but it doesn't seem to be among the super wealthy. I'd guess upper middle class. But your the one who knows so tell us.

    It does go back to the OP and our discussion of how there's something more there than just money and the education it buys, there's the reputation of how you got in that people care about.

    ---------- Post added at 09:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:38 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    When the poor or Leftists (Antifa, BLM) break the rules, you applaud.
    What are you talking about?

    ---------- Post added at 09:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:39 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    I think this stuff is all hidden and masked. There was a story that some kid got in on athletics through his parents but when he joined, because he didn’t know what was done to get him in, he said he never did athletics. Still stayed in though. So no one is really verifying this stuff.
    I agree. I'm really curious to see if this is going to blow up and expand. Seems like it's just very elite schools right now but I wonder if something will erupt in, say, the high-tier public schools. And the sports angle is also very interesting. That's a whole other area no one ever seems to want to talk about. Big $ for sure.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  12. #11
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    Re: Cheating is OK

    How apropos:

    "Trump doesn’t just cheat at golf. He cheats like a three-card Monte dealer. He throws it, boots it, and moves it. He lies about his lies. He fudges and foozles and fluffs. At Winged Foot, where Trump is a member, the caddies got so used to seeing him kick his ball back onto the fairway they came up with a nickname for him: “Pele.”

    “I played with him once,” says Bryan Marsal, longtime Winged Foot member and chair of the coming 2020 Men’s U.S. Open. “It was a Saturday morning game. We go to the first tee and he couldn’t have been nicer. But then he said, ‘You see those two guys? They cheat. See me? I cheat. And I expect you to cheat because we’re going to beat those two guys today.’… So, yes, it’s true, he’s going to cheat you. But I think Donald, in his heart of hearts, believes that you’re gonna cheat him, too. So if it’s the same, if everybody’s cheating, he doesn’t see it as really cheating.”

    To say “Donald Trump cheats” is like saying “Michael Phelps swims.” He cheats at the highest level. He cheats when people are watching, and he cheats when they aren’t. He cheats whether you like it or not. He cheats because that’s how he plays golf, that’s how he learned it, that’s how he needs it, and whether you’re his pharmacist or Tiger Woods, if you’re playing golf with him, he’s going to cheat.

    “On this one hole, Donald hits his second and fats it into the water,” Faxon remembers. “But he quickly says to me, ‘Hey, throw me another ball; they weren’t looking.’ So I do. But he fats that one into the water, too. So he drives up and drops where he should’ve dropped the first time and hits it on the green.”

    *************

    Trump’s friends defend his cheating, but in a way you might not expect. “My rounds with him have been some of the most fun days I’ve ever had playing golf,” says longtime NBA and college basketball coach Mike Dunleavy. “Yeah, he moves it and kicks it and all that, but no money changes hands at the end. There’s a wager, yeah, but then nobody pays anybody. So that’s not really cheating to me. It’s just fun.”

    To show how much fun, Dunleavy tells a story about he and Trump as partners in a game against two of their buddies. Dunleavy hits his approach shot onto the corner of a kidney-shaped green that left him no possible putt. He was going to have to chip it off the green or somehow try to putt through the fringe and hope it came out back onto the green. Trump, his partner, came over and secretly knocked the ball on to a part of the green where Dunleavy could putt it. Dunleavy picked it up and put it back where it was.

    “That’s when Donald starts yelling to the other two,” Dunleavy recalls. “He goes, ‘Guys, guys! I wanna tell you how great a guy Coach is. I knocked his ball over here so he could have a putt at it. But then he put it back! And that’s why he’s an unemployed coach and I’m worth $13 billion.”"
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  13. #12
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    Re: Cheating is OK

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    How apropos:

    "Trump doesn’t just cheat at golf. He cheats like a three-card Monte dealer. He throws it, boots it, and moves it. He lies about his lies. He fudges and foozles and fluffs. At Winged Foot, where Trump is a member, the caddies got so used to seeing him kick his ball back onto the fairway they came up with a nickname for him: “Pele.”

    “I played with him once,” says Bryan Marsal, longtime Winged Foot member and chair of the coming 2020 Men’s U.S. Open. “It was a Saturday morning game. We go to the first tee and he couldn’t have been nicer. But then he said, ‘You see those two guys? They cheat. See me? I cheat. And I expect you to cheat because we’re going to beat those two guys today.’… So, yes, it’s true, he’s going to cheat you. But I think Donald, in his heart of hearts, believes that you’re gonna cheat him, too. So if it’s the same, if everybody’s cheating, he doesn’t see it as really cheating.”

    To say “Donald Trump cheats” is like saying “Michael Phelps swims.” He cheats at the highest level. He cheats when people are watching, and he cheats when they aren’t. He cheats whether you like it or not. He cheats because that’s how he plays golf, that’s how he learned it, that’s how he needs it, and whether you’re his pharmacist or Tiger Woods, if you’re playing golf with him, he’s going to cheat.

    “On this one hole, Donald hits his second and fats it into the water,” Faxon remembers. “But he quickly says to me, ‘Hey, throw me another ball; they weren’t looking.’ So I do. But he fats that one into the water, too. So he drives up and drops where he should’ve dropped the first time and hits it on the green.”

    *************

    Trump’s friends defend his cheating, but in a way you might not expect. “My rounds with him have been some of the most fun days I’ve ever had playing golf,” says longtime NBA and college basketball coach Mike Dunleavy. “Yeah, he moves it and kicks it and all that, but no money changes hands at the end. There’s a wager, yeah, but then nobody pays anybody. So that’s not really cheating to me. It’s just fun.”

    To show how much fun, Dunleavy tells a story about he and Trump as partners in a game against two of their buddies. Dunleavy hits his approach shot onto the corner of a kidney-shaped green that left him no possible putt. He was going to have to chip it off the green or somehow try to putt through the fringe and hope it came out back onto the green. Trump, his partner, came over and secretly knocked the ball on to a part of the green where Dunleavy could putt it. Dunleavy picked it up and put it back where it was.

    “That’s when Donald starts yelling to the other two,” Dunleavy recalls. “He goes, ‘Guys, guys! I wanna tell you how great a guy Coach is. I knocked his ball over here so he could have a putt at it. But then he put it back! And that’s why he’s an unemployed coach and I’m worth $13 billion.”"
    Ok, the Donald is a jerk, a nut, cheats at golf in a non confrontational way, and has a lot of money/runs a small empire.

    Now what?
    Pretty sure this was all known prior to the election...

  14. #13
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    Re: Cheating is OK

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Ok, the Donald is a jerk, a nut, cheats at golf in a non confrontational way, and has a lot of money/runs a small empire.

    Now what?
    Pretty sure this was all known prior to the election...
    Was it? To me, yes, I grew up in the Tri-state area so was well acquainted with Trump and his "business" as it was continually in the papers. Seems like a lot of the country just saw some money and assumed he was some kind of business genius without looking much farther.

    as to cheating at golf, doesn't "character count" anymore? Especially from the party that coined and championed that phrase?

    "Now what?" I don't know...maybe cheating at Candyland?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

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    Re: Cheating is OK

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Was it?
    Um, ya...….

    ---------- Post added at 09:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:49 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    ...doesn't "character count" anymore? Especially from the party that coined and championed that phrase?
    Not since Bill Clinton, per "your party" as I recall.

    To me, ya, it matters. That is part of why I did not vote for the Donald!
    (remember?)

    ---------- Post added at 09:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:52 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    "Now what?" I don't know...maybe cheating at Candyland?
    I meant, now what do we do with this knowledge (that we already had)?

    Wow, the Donald admits he is cheating at golf while he is doing it.
    Oh God, impeach him??

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    Re: Cheating is OK

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post

    Not since Bill Clinton, per "your party" as I recall.

    To me, ya, it matters. That is part of why I did not vote for the Donald!
    (remember?)
    Why should one party be held to another's standard when it's obvious they don't care about it?

    ---------- Post added at 11:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:00 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post

    I meant, now what do we do with this knowledge (that we already had)?

    Wow, the Donald admits he is cheating at golf while he is doing it.
    Oh God, impeach him??
    Maybe not worship him as much, for starters.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

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    Re: Cheating is OK

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Why should one party be held to another's standard when it's obvious they don't care about it?[COLOR="Silver"]
    Actually, neither party cares about that, given their actions (which is much more important than what they may say).

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    Re: Cheating is OK

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Maybe not worship him as much, for starters.

    For god's sake.....(heavy sigh).....

    I wonder how many times (just here on ODN) I have commented about the Donald being a complete nut! Like over the top!
    I did not vote for him.
    I seriously doubt I will vote for him next time.
    I am not a republican. They suck.
    I am not a democrat. They suck.

    "Worship"???
    I'm not sure I have even ever made a positive comment about the Donald.
    Not all people that disagree with you fit the same mold. This is something you need to learn if you want to communicate effectively.

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  20. #18
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    Re: Cheating is OK

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Actually, neither party cares about that, given their actions (which is much more important than what they may say).
    One party admits it. The other does not.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  21. #19
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    Re: Cheating is OK

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    One party admits it. The other does not.
    Both parties are "effed up". Even if one were to "admit it", that would change nothing unless their actions changed.

  22. #20
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    Re: Cheating is OK

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Both parties are "effed up". Even if one were to "admit it", that would change nothing unless their actions changed.
    Realizing that humans are flawed creatures that succumb to sometimes dark inclinations is not being "effed up".
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

 

 
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