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Thread: Gay Reparations

  1. #201
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    So you're saying that it was a social construct before Queen Victoria did whatever it is you are talking about?
    Not quite the same way I don't think Victoria ordered people to be stoned to death, just wanted it stopped in polite society.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Not quite the same way I don't think Victoria ordered people to be stoned to death, just wanted it stopped in polite society.
    I don't see how the Queen Victoria issue supports that homophobia is a social construct.

    Again, I think homophobia is a subset of xenophobia (fear of what's different) and therefore natural. And whatever she did was based on the natural reaction that relatively ignorant people have to those of a different sexual orientation. And if my assumption is incorrect, then you need to support that that is so if you are going to support that it's a societal construct.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And this supports that it's a social construct how?
    Because it is taken as a social fact - an objective - until it no longer is. That is until the social base no longer supports it - enough people stop internalizing it as a way of "that is how things are". (I'm talking about homophobia here, not homosexuality. Homosexuality is a fact, not a social construct).

    ---------- Post added at 12:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:58 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Again, I think homophobia is a subset of xenophobia (fear of what's different) and therefore natural. And whatever she did was based on the natural reaction that relatively ignorant people have to those of a different sexual orientation. And if my assumption is incorrect, then you need to support that that is so if you are going to support that it's a societal construct.
    Then we would expect to see as a social construct it in all societies, which we don't as supported. More like xenophobia and homophobia share the trait of the emotion of fear. Fear fed by ignorance and reinforced by the powerful.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Because it is taken as a social fact - an objective - until it no longer is. That is until the social base no longer supports it - enough people stop internalizing it as a way of "that is how things are".
    What exactly about homophobia is "taken as a social fact"? That it exists?

    To the best of my knowledge it has always existed within societies to some extent. Even gay-friendly societies likely had some homophobes in them. So it's always been an objective fact that homophobia exists.

    If you mean something else as the "social fact", please specify what that is.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Then we would expect to see as a social construct it in all societies, which we don't as supported.
    No, we would expect to see it in all societies, whether it's a social construct or not. And you have not supported that that has not happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    More like xenophobia and homophobia share the trait of the emotion of fear. Fear fed by ignorance and reinforced by the powerful.
    They don't share the emotion of fear, they are types of fear. And they exist independently of any social construct.

    A person doesn't need to be told my society to fear gays in order to fear them.
    Last edited by mican333; August 21st, 2019 at 09:02 AM.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    What exactly about homophobia is "taken as a social fact"? That it exists?

    To the best of my knowledge it has always existed within societies to some extent. Even gay-friendly societies likely had some homophobes in them. So it's always been an objective fact that homophobia exists.

    If you mean something else as the "social fact", please specify what that is.
    Yes, it exists as a social fact in an external sense from the individual, the agreed upon (constructed) way of doing something by the base of society (not necessarily the majority). Individuals then either internalize or reject that social fact or fall anywhere on the continuum between. So you will always have the one guy on the edge of the village who hates gays in a gay friendly society and someone who risks the most horrendous sanctions in the most homophobic society.

    ---------- Post added at 03:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:54 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    No, we would expect to see it in all societies, whether it's a social construct or not. And you have not supported that that has not happened.
    I have. I have given primary examples of individuals observing societies where homophobia was not a social construct (not a social fact shared by the base). Although they were heavily biased by their own social constructs it actually helps my argument since they were specifically looking for and explaining in great depth differences in social constructs.

    ---------- Post added at 03:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:00 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    They don't share the emotion of fear, they are types of fear.
    Huh?

    ---------- Post added at 03:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:01 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And they exist independently of any social construct.
    Sure, but if they were objectively true they would exists in everyone. How do you explain the variance?

    ---------- Post added at 03:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:03 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    A person doesn't need to be told my society to fear gays in order to fear them.
    Sure, that wouldn't be a social fact.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Yes, it exists as a social fact in an external sense from the individual, the agreed upon (constructed) way of doing something by the base of society (not necessarily the majority). Individuals then either internalize or reject that social fact or fall anywhere on the continuum between. So you will always have the one guy on the edge of the village who hates gays in a gay friendly society and someone who risks the most horrendous sanctions in the most homophobic society.
    What "social fact" are you referring to? Are you referring to a general societal attitude that gays are to be opposed? If so, that's not the general societal attitude of this current society. It's generally frowned upon to express open hostility towards gays nowadays. Jonah Hill had to apologize for yelling a gay slur at someone which would not be the case if that "social fact" was widely agreed upon in this society.

    I've always, when applicable, expressed support for gay rights so if I have any involvement in the issue, I should be credited for opposing this "social fact" and therefore there is no reason for me to have to pay reparations. I do need to have a level of legal culpability in an injustice before it's fair to take my money to pay restitution for that injustice.

    That seems to be the difference between you and I. I'm saying that only those who are guilty of an injustice should pay for it and you are arguing that everyone should pay for it regardless of whether they are culpable or not. What's wrong with my viewpoint?

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    What "social fact" are you referring to? Are you referring to a general societal attitude that gays are to be opposed?
    Yes, it can take many forms from a general social attitude to the most heinous sanctions (laws).

    ---------- Post added at 12:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:10 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    If so, that's not the general societal attitude of this current society.
    Right, it can change which is why it is a social fact not a fact of human existence.

    ---------- Post added at 12:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:13 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    That seems to be the difference between you and I. I'm saying that only those who are guilty of an injustice should pay for it and you are arguing that everyone should pay for it regardless of whether they are culpable or not. What's wrong with my viewpoint?
    Because the society is culpable, not any one individual in that case. True, there are situations where an individual or individuals might be culpable for a direct injustice.

    For example, here is a classic episode dealing with the matter. You can see where there's places where, yes, Archie would be accountable (for trying to blackmail her) but who's responsible for putting her in that position? her?


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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Right, it can change which is why it is a social fact not a fact of human existence.
    It's not a fact at all. "Gays are bad" is an opinion and society cannot make it fact.

    Even if "gays are bad" is codified into law and everyone in society agreed with it, it would still be opinion and not fact.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Because the society is culpable, not any one individual in that case. True, there are situations where an individual or individuals might be culpable for a direct injustice.
    I have yet to see an example where individuals weren't responsible and society in general was (in modern times). So please support that all of society (including me) is culpable.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    For example, here is a classic episode dealing with the matter. You can see where there's places where, yes, Archie would be accountable (for trying to blackmail her) but who's responsible for putting her in that position? her?
    If your answer to that question is "all of society", please support that. If your answer is not "all of society", then this example does not support your conclusion.

    Besides that, I assume the episode you are talking about is roughly 40 years old and therefore would not support that today gays are owed reparations even if you supported that that situation would warrant reparations back then.
    Last edited by mican333; August 22nd, 2019 at 07:01 AM.

  9. #209
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    It's not a fact at all. "Gays are bad" is an opinion and society cannot make it fact.

    Even if "gays are bad" is codified into law and everyone in society agreed with it, it would still be opinion and not fact.
    Right, not a fact but a social fact. From google dictionary:
    a thing originating in the institutions or culture of a society which affects the behavior or attitudes of an individual member of that society.


    ---------- Post added at 11:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:10 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I have yet to see an example where individuals weren't responsible and society in general was (in modern times). So please support that all of society (including me) is culpable.

    If your answer to that question is "all of society", please support that. If your answer is not "all of society", then this example does not support your conclusion.

    Besides that, I assume the episode you are talking about is roughly 40 years old and therefore would not support that today gays are owed reparations even if you supported that that situation would warrant reparations back then.
    Are you saying that nobody from 40 years ago is still alive? Even if they aren't justice is still due. To the individual, yes, but also to the entire community towards which such attitudes were directed.

    That's the same example I presented before. A couple not being able to live their life freely and openly because of the prevailing social attitudes. Society is responsible for them having to live in fear.

  10. #210
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Are you saying that nobody from 40 years ago is still alive? Even if they aren't justice is still due. To the individual, yes, but also to the entire community towards which such attitudes were directed.
    Nope. If you are referring to a specific instance of injustice, then we are not talking about those gays who did not suffer that specific injustice. And while that person from 40 years ago who suffered the injustice may still be alive, many people within our society were not alive back then and therefore cannot be considered culpable and therefore society in general is not culpable.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    That's the same example I presented before. A couple not being able to live their life freely and openly because of the prevailing social attitudes. Society is responsible for them having to live in fear.
    How am I responsible for that?

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    How am I responsible for that?
    Because society is responsible.

    ---------- Post added at 04:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:22 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Nope. If you are referring to a specific instance of injustice, then we are not talking about those gays who did not suffer that specific injustice. And while that person from 40 years ago who suffered the injustice may still be alive, many people within our society were not alive back then and therefore cannot be considered culpable and therefore society in general is not culpable.
    I'm not talking about a specific instance of injustice, you are. I'm talking about prevailing attitudes that in toto are an injustice to an entire group of people. Society still exists as does the group therefore the cause of justice is a legitimate one.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Because society is responsible.
    No, certain individuals within society are responsible. If all of society is responsible, then I am culpable on some level and you should be able to explain my culpability.

    But you can’t because I am not in therefore society isn’t either.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I'm not talking about a specific instance of injustice, you are. I'm talking about prevailing attitudes that in toto are an injustice to an entire group of people. Society still exists as does the group therefore the cause of justice is a legitimate one.
    I was responding to your Archie Bunker anecdote which is a specific example. The teacher who has to live in the closet is also a specific example. Pretty much any example that you gave that I agreed is an injustice that warrants redress were specific examples.

    Any larger scale injustice you may have referred to was so vague that I could see no case for repayment of it. Again, I provided an example of a happy successful gay friend of mine. If there is an injustice against all gay people that warrants financial compensation, then my gay friend is entitled to it. So what large-scale injustice are you referring to that warrants paying all gays, no matter how well they are doing, money?
    Last edited by mican333; August 22nd, 2019 at 12:52 PM.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    No, certain individuals within society are responsible. If all of society is responsible, then I am culpable on some level and you should be able to explain my culpability.

    But you can’t because I am not in therefore society isn’t either.
    Moving the goal posts. You're not culpable, you're responsible.

    ---------- Post added at 05:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:54 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    I was responding to your Archie Bunker anecdote which is a specific example. The teacher who has to live in the closet is also a specific example. Pretty much any example that you gave that I agreed is an injustice that warrants redress were specific examples.

    Any larger scale injustice you may have referred to was so vague that I could see no case for repayment of it. Again, I provided an example of a happy successful gay friend of mine. If there is an injustice against all gay people that warrants financial compensation, then my gay friend is entitled to it. So what large-scale injustice are you referring to that warrants paying all gays, no matter how well they are doing, money?
    So that teacher from my example, who does she sue?

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Moving the goal posts. You're not culpable, you're responsible.
    In the context of the debate, there is no real difference between the two words. If I'm responsible, then I'm culpable. And if I'm not culpable, then it cannot be said that I owe gays any money.

    So explain why I'm responsible for an injustice against all gays.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    So that teacher from my example, who does she sue?
    Red Herring.

    The point is that you are talking about a specific example here and have not forwarded a specific large-scale injustice that deserves repayment. Again, I provided an example of a happy successful gay friend of mine. If there is an injustice against all gay people that warrants financial compensation, then my gay friend is entitled to it. So what large-scale injustice are you referring to that warrants paying all gays, no matter how well they are doing, money?

    Please address this.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    So explain why I'm responsible for an injustice against all gays.
    You're not. You're responsible for correcting it in seeing that justice is done.

    ---------- Post added at 07:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:04 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    The point is that you are talking about a specific example here and have not forwarded a specific large-scale injustice that deserves repayment.
    Sure I have. The widespread and systematic (and sometimes unsystematic) persecution of a group of people.

    ---------- Post added at 07:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:06 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Again, I provided an example of a happy successful gay friend of mine. If there is an injustice against all gay people that warrants financial compensation, then my gay friend is entitled to it.
    Yes, your point?

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    You're not. You're responsible for correcting it in seeing that justice is done.
    And I'm all for any specific injustice against any specific gay person being rectified..

    And if you ever identify an injustice that was committed by the entire gay population by the entire population as a whole (AKA society), then I will consider the notion that there's a valid case for reparations.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Sure I have. The widespread and systematic (and sometimes unsystematic) persecution of a group of people.
    Too vague to be valid. Please explain what specific injustice that has been foisted on the entirety of the gay community that warrants compensation for the entire gay community that exists today.
    Last edited by mican333; August 22nd, 2019 at 04:48 PM.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And if you ever identify an injustice that was committed by the entire gay population by the entire population as a whole (AKA society), then I will consider the notion that there's a valid case for reparations.
    Persecution is an injustice.

    ---------- Post added at 03:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:10 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Too vague to be valid. Please explain what specific injustice that has been foisted on the entirety of the gay community that warrants compensation for the entire gay community that exists today.
    The injustice of persecution is made up of many aggregate factors. Unless you are are denying that homosexuals were persecuted:

    McCarthy and Cohn were responsible for the firing of scores of gay men from government employment, and strong-armed many opponents into silence using rumors of their homosexuality.[22] On April 27, 1953, President Eisenhower issued Executive Order 10450, which banned gay men and lesbians from working for any agency of the federal government.[23] It was not until 1973 that a federal judge ruled that a person's sexual orientation alone could not be the sole reason for termination from federal employment, and not until 1975 that the United States Civil Service Commission announced that they would consider applications by gays and lesbians on a case by case basis.
    Or that they still are and that persecution has lasting effects even after it is ended.

    Evidence has shown that gay and bisexual men who earned higher incomes were significantly less likely to report discrimination compared to those of lower socioeconomic position.
    Perhaps that is your friend. (from the previous source).

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Persecution is an injustice.
    Agreed. But then I don't agree that today's society is currently persecuting the entirety of the gay community and therefore there is no valid case to currently pay the gay community money


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    The injustice of persecution is made up of many aggregate factors. Unless you are are denying that homosexuals were persecuted
    I wouldn't argue that, say, fifty years ago, one could not make an argument that gays were suffering from persecution. And if we were having this debate fifty years ago, I might agree with you that reparations are in order for that.

    But you are arguing that reparations are owed from TODAY'S society to TODAY'S gay community so in essence, I owe you money because I have participated in the persecution of you. I disagree with that.

    If you are arguing that victims of past persecution are deserving of compensation, then the solution would be to give those SPECIFIC victims compensation which is different than giving the whole gay community, including you and my happy successful gay friend money as well.

    So in short, I disagree that today's gays are suffering from a societal injustice, like persecution, that warrants giving the whole gay community reparations.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Or that they still are and that persecution has lasting effects even after it is ended.

    "Evidence has shown that gay and bisexual men who earned higher incomes were significantly less likely to report discrimination compared to those of lower socioeconomic position."

    Perhaps that is your friend. (from the previous source).
    Yes, I argue that that example does not qualify as persecution.
    Last edited by mican333; August 23rd, 2019 at 06:32 AM.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Agreed.

    I wouldn't argue that, say, fifty years ago, one could not make an argument that gays were suffering from persecution.
    Good. So the injustices of past persecution have not been rectified and you agree that they should be.

    ---------- Post added at 10:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:32 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    So in short, I disagree that today's gays are suffering from a societal injustice, like persecution, that warrants giving the whole gay community reparations.
    And you'd be wrong. The President is currently persecuting the trans community both in the military and with his justice department taking cases to the SCOTUS to try and have it made legal to fire trans people. This is part of the "religious liberty" laws of which I supported earlier. A further attempt at discrimination.

    Further, there is a legacy of persecution from acts in the past there are plenty of examples here:

    Evidence indicates individuals who identify as lesbian, gay, bisexual and/or transgender (LGBT) are especially susceptible to socioeconomic disadvantages. Thus, SES is inherently related to the rights, quality of life and general well-being of LGBT persons.
    All of which make the case for reparations in the similar vein of support I've provided for Jewish reparations from Germany and American reparations for slavery.

    ---------- Post added at 10:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:38 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Yes, I argue that that example does not qualify as persecution.
    and that would be an overwhelming exception fallacy, if it even existed. My support says that people of higher SES are less likely to report such incidents, not that they are not encountering them.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Good. So the injustices of past persecution have not been rectified and you agree that they should be.
    On a case-by-case basis, sure.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    And you'd be wrong. The President is currently persecuting the trans community both in the military and with his justice department taking cases to the SCOTUS to try and have it made legal to fire trans people. This is part of the "religious liberty" laws of which I supported earlier. A further attempt at discrimination.
    We are discussion persecution of the gay community, not the trans community.

    So you have not shown that persecution of the gay community currently exists.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Further, there is a legacy of persecution from acts in the past there are plenty of examples
    Moving the goalpost. I said that persecution of gays doesn't exist today. Lingering effects of past persecution is not the same.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    All of which make the case for reparations in the similar vein of support I've provided for Jewish reparations from Germany and American reparations for slavery.
    To the best of my knowledge, you never supported that reparations were warranted for Jews and blacks so you can't use CLAIMS of support for those things as support for a gay reparation argument.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    and that would be an overwhelming exception fallacy, if it even existed. My support says that people of higher SES are less likely to report such incidents, not that they are not encountering them.
    And being less likely to report discrimination does not qualify as "persecution".

    Since you are apparently defining "persecution" that way, I hold that your definition of persecution is too vague to be of use and therefore reject that "persecution" is a reason for reparations. If I thought you were adhering to the definition of "persecution' as I understand it, then I would agree that it's a reason. But you aren't so I don't.

    You will need to be specific on the societal crime committed against gays that warrant reparations if you are to make your case. Using general words with vague definitions will not work.

 

 
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