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Thread: Gay Reparations

  1. #221
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    On a case-by-case basis, sure.
    Ok, I've presented examples of federal laws which were an injustice to all homosexuals who were subject to them. We can add to that all of the state and local laws, policies of private organizations and institutions and individual actions.

    ---------- Post added at 11:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:14 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    We are discussion persecution of the gay community, not the trans community.

    So you have not shown that persecution of the gay community currently exists.
    But I have in the form of religious liberty laws. They are targeted at all of the queer community which include gays. The President currently targeting trans people is evidence that persecution f any segment of that community is still possible and is certainly not over.

    ---------- Post added at 11:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:17 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Moving the goalpost. I said that persecution of gays doesn't exist today. Lingering effects of past persecution is not the same.
    Not the same but related enough to warrant reparations to help those suffering to overcome them.

    ---------- Post added at 11:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:18 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    To the best of my knowledge, you never supported that reparations were warranted for Jews and blacks so you can't use CLAIMS of support for those things as support for a gay reparation argument.
    For Jews I don't have to, reparations were paid. That is a fact. Whether they were warranted, well, you can figure that one out if you want to it's not necessary to my argument. As for the descendants of slaves I provided an example of a proposed reparations package along with its justification.

    ---------- Post added at 11:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:21 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Since you are apparently defining "persecution" that way, I hold that your definition of persecution is too vague to be of use and therefore reject that "persecution" is a reason for reparations. If I thought you were adhering to the definition of "persecution' as I understand it, then I would agree that it's a reason. But you aren't so I don't.
    I gave a definition of persecution as being a more severe form of domination in both systematic and unsystematic ways. If you have another definition I'd be happy to look at it.

    ---------- Post added at 11:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:25 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And being less likely to report discrimination does not qualify as "persecution".
    No, it's being less likely to report it. It's still discrimination (the support doesn't say what specific types) and a part of the persecution. If someone steal my garden gnome out of my front lawn it is still theft, though I'd be less likely to report it than if someone stole my car. So someone who maybe doesn't need that job or promotion or apartment might not be bothered, they're too busy being successful to bother.
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  2. #222
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Ok, I've presented examples of federal laws which were an injustice to all homosexuals who were subject to them. We can add to that all of the state and local laws, policies of private organizations and institutions and individual actions.
    I'm only interested in hearing about a societal injustice to the entirety of TODAY"S gay community.
    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    But I have in the form of religious liberty laws. They are targeted at all of the queer community which include gays.
    And I don't agree that these rise to the level of providing such an injustice to all gays that they all deserve compensation.

    I mean I assume we are referring to examples like the gay couple being refused a wedding cake, right? I think they have a case for restitution since they were specifically effected. On the other hand, all of the other gays who never had a problem buying what they want do not deserve money because of that.

    So I'm still waiting for an example of a societal injustice that warrants giving ALL gays reparations.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    The President currently targeting trans people is evidence that persecution f any segment of that community is still possible and is certainly not over.
    Moving the goalpost. This is about gay reparations, not trans reparations.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    TheNot the same but related enough to warrant reparations to help those suffering to overcome them.
    What about those who aren't suffering to overcome them?

    Again, I am referring to an injustice that effects ALL gays.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    For Jews I don't have to, reparations were paid. That is a fact. Whether they were warranted, well, you can figure that one out if you want to it's not necessary to my argument.
    No, it's absolutely necessary for your argument.

    You are arguing that gays SHOULD receive reparations and if the reasoning for this is similar to why the Jews SHOULD get reparations, then you need to explain why the Jews SHOULD receive reparations. It's entirely likely that the reason that the Jews SHOULD receive reparations does not apply to gays. But we won't know until you make your argument. Until you do, it does not stand that gays should receive reparations because Jews did get them.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    As for the descendants of slaves I provided an example of a proposed reparations package along with its justification.
    And the same goes for this analogy. You need to explain why blacks should receive reparations and then successfully argue that the same reasoning applies to gays for this argument to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I gave a definition of persecution as being a more severe form of domination in both systematic and unsystematic ways. If you have another definition I'd be happy to look at it.
    That definition is fine but I think your bar for what constitutes "persecution" includes things that are not reparation-worthy and therefore do not accept that something is reparation-worthy just because you call it "persecution".

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    No, it's being less likely to report it. It's still discrimination (the support doesn't say what specific types) and a part of the persecution. If someone steal my garden gnome out of my front lawn it is still theft, though I'd be less likely to report it than if someone stole my car. So someone who maybe doesn't need that job or promotion or apartment might not be bothered, they're too busy being successful to bother.
    Okay. But I don't find this to be reparation-worthy.

    Again, it needs to be an injustice the directly effects all gays. If someone doesn't report discrimination because they are gay, then that is an INDIVIDUAL issue which doesn't effect other gays who don't hesitate to report discrimination.

    And at this point the fact that you call it "persecution" means nothing.

  3. #223
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I'm only interested in hearing about a societal injustice to the entirety of TODAY"S gay community.
    Then you're in the wrong place.

    ---------- Post added at 01:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:50 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And I don't agree that these rise to the level of providing such an injustice to all gays that they all deserve compensation.

    I mean I assume we are referring to examples like the gay couple being refused a wedding cake, right? I think they have a case for restitution since they were specifically effected. On the other hand, all of the other gays who never had a problem buying what they want do not deserve money because of that.

    So I'm still waiting for an example of a societal injustice that warrants giving ALL gays reparations.
    A single example? I'm not sure there is one. Although all of the states once had Sodomy Laws. Like the Federal laws they would effect all gays. That isn't, however, my argument which is the prevailing social attitude, the social fact, of homophobia and the vast and varied examples of the resulting persecution.

    ---------- Post added at 01:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:55 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    What about those who aren't suffering to overcome them?

    Again, I am referring to an injustice that effects ALL gays.
    They're probably suffering from something else, maybe they were gay bashed.

    ---------- Post added at 02:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:57 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    No, it's absolutely necessary for your argument.

    You are arguing that gays SHOULD receive reparations and if the reasoning for this is similar to why the Jews SHOULD get reparations, then you need to explain why the Jews SHOULD receive reparations. It's entirely likely that the reason that the Jews SHOULD receive reparations does not apply to gays. But we won't know until you make your argument. Until you do, it does not stand that gays should receive reparations because Jews did get them.
    Wrong. My argument is that injustices need to be rectified. Reparations is one of the ways we do that. The injustices do not have to be the same either in scope or in manner as the rectification doesn't need to be the same...the punishment can fit the crime.

    ---------- Post added at 02:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:01 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    That definition is fine but I think your bar for what constitutes "persecution" includes things that are not reparation-worthy and therefore do not accept that something is reparation-worthy just because you call it "persecution".
    Since it is the total package it doesn't matter if any one thing is less persecutiony than the other. Surely being sent to a death camp and being worked and starved to death is more of a persecution than being required to wear a yellow star on your clothing. Similarly, growing up and constantly hearing how everything bad or stupid is somehow "gay" is not as severe as being beat to death with baseball bats and a pool cue. However, in both situations they are examples of the same prevailing social attitude of persecuting a group.

    ---------- Post added at 02:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:10 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Okay. But I don't find this to be reparation-worthy.

    Again, it needs to be an injustice the directly effects all gays. If someone doesn't report discrimination because they are gay, then that is an INDIVIDUAL issue which doesn't effect other gays who don't hesitate to report discrimination.
    Sure it does effect other gays as it shows the problem is much higher than officially reported. So there are spurious variables, this one is SES, another one is apathy (it won't help), another one is fear of retaliation (it might make things worse) which effect whether an incident is reported or not. Some of which (like the latter ones) are learned from experience with the dominant prevailing attitudes.

    ---------- Post added at 02:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:22 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And at this point the fact that you call it "persecution" means nothing.
    Why do you say that? What else would it be? Is it really that we can't afford the medical bills associated with a trans person in the military?
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    A single example? I'm not sure there is one. Although all of the states once had Sodomy Laws. Like the Federal laws they would effect all gays. That isn't, however, my argument which is the prevailing social attitude, the social fact, of homophobia and the vast and varied examples of the resulting persecution.
    And you've provided no examples that could not be treated as a case-by-base basis.

    To say ALL gays deserve reparations is to say that they ALL suffered an injustice that should not be paid soley but whichever specific individual or groups that meted out the injustice but just everyone as if everyone, like me, had something to do with it.

    If someone beats up a gay person, the attacker should be the ONLY one to pay. Not me.
    If an employer unjustly fires a gay employee, then ONLY the employer should pay. Not me.

    There is no crime against gays that I was a party to and therefore I should not be amongst those who are to pay for what injustices gays have suffered in this society.

    When I hear it explained how it's just for me to pay for whatever injustices gays serve, then I will consider the notion that everyone should pay to be valid. Otherwise, it's clear that it is not just for me to pay reparations and instead only those who have actually harmed gays should pay.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And you've provided no examples that could not be treated as a case-by-base basis.
    Sure I have.

    ---------- Post added at 10:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:36 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    If someone beats up a gay person, the attacker should be the ONLY one to pay. Not me.
    If an employer unjustly fires a gay employee, then ONLY the employer should pay. Not me.
    What about where an employer fired someone and it was legal to do so? The who pays?

    My example of the person not being able to be themselves and not get fired or evicted or whatever still stands.
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Sure I have.

    ---------- Post added at 10:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:36 PM ----------



    What about where an employer fired someone and it was legal to do so? The who pays?

    My example of the person not being able to be themselves and not get fired or evicted or whatever still stands.
    But they are all individual examples and therefore if money is to be paid for these injustices, the money should go to those specific individuals. If reparations are to be paid to all gays, then there needs to be an injustice that has then committed against all gays.

    As far as I can tell, when it comes to that you resort to incredibly vague terms like prevailing social attitude, social fact, and persecution.

    And when it comes to things that do make a valid case for repayment, it is things that affect certain individuals, such as beatings, Unjust firings, being pressured to stay in the closet ones whole life Which, if financial compensation is a just remedy, should only go to those specific individuals, not a whole day community.

    When it comes to Jews and blacks, there is a specific societal crime against all of them. The Holocaust and slavery. Those are quite specific instead of vague like just saying persecution.

    So I don’t expect that you can point to a specific societal crime against today’s gay population that warrants giving all of them money. If you could have, you would have by now. If my assumption is incorrect, then please provide that specific crime.
    Last edited by mican333; August 24th, 2019 at 07:54 AM.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But they are all individual examples and therefore if money is to be paid for these injustices, the money should go to those specific individuals. If reparations are to be paid to all gays, then there needs to be an injustice that has then committed against all gays.

    As far as I can tell, when it comes to that you resort to incredibly vague terms like prevailing social attitude, social fact, and persecution.
    I'd say it's an umbrella term, it's not vague. Not everyone rents an apartment or wants to get married.

    ---------- Post added at 12:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:48 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And when it comes to things that do make a valid case for repayment, it is things that affect certain individuals, such as beatings, Unjust firings, being pressured to stay in the closet ones whole life Which, if financial compensation is a just remedy, should only go to those specific individuals, not a whole day community.
    Who would I sue because I stayed in the closet?

    ---------- Post added at 01:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:53 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    When it comes to Jews and blacks, there is a specific societal crime against all of them. The Holocaust and slavery. Those are quite specific instead of vague like just saying persecution.
    Are you saying the Holocaust and slavery weren't persecutions against specific groups? I'd rather not get bogged down in definitions of these events here. I am by no means saying they are the same in their scope, manner, or intensity. They don't have to be.

    ---------- Post added at 01:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:02 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    So I don’t expect that you can point to a specific societal crime against today’s gay population that warrants giving all of them money. If you could have, you would have by now. If my assumption is incorrect, then please provide that specific crime.
    Fallacy of the single cause.
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I'd say it's an umbrella term, it's not vague. Not everyone rents an apartment or wants to get married.

    ---------- Post added at 12:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:48 PM ----------



    Who would I sue because I stayed in the closet?

    ---------- Post added at 01:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:53 PM ----------



    Are you saying the Holocaust and slavery weren't persecutions against specific groups? I'd rather not get bogged down in definitions of these events here. I am by no means saying they are the same in their scope, manner, or intensity. They don't have to be.

    ---------- Post added at 01:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:02 PM ----------



    Fallacy of the single cause.
    A clear misuse of that fallacy. I’m not forwarding a cause, let alone a single cause.

    You are the one saying that all gay people deserve compensation for an injustice but have not specified that injustice. You are free to forward more than one injustice if you want to. But whatever you forward to, they have to cover all gay people, be specific enough for One to agree that they warrant reparations, and be committed by society as opposed to individuals.

    So bashing and firings don’t count as they are not committed by society but individuals.

    Persecution doesn’t count because it’s too vague. As you said, there are a variety of scopes of persecution and I would say that some of the things that you would consider persecution do not qualify for reparation of the injustices. So just because you can semantically say something to his persecution does not mean that reparations are warranted.

    So let’s go back to my happy successful gay friend. Assuming he has not been bashed or unjustly fired, I hope that he does not deserve reparations just because he is gay. Unless you can show why he deserves reparations, I do not agree that all gay people deserve reparations.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    A clear misuse of that fallacy. I’m not forwarding a cause, let alone a single cause.
    You don't know what that fallacy is.

    ---------- Post added at 11:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:45 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    You are the one saying that all gay people deserve compensation for an injustice but have not specified that injustice.
    Persecution of a group is an injustice.

    ---------- Post added at 11:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:46 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    So bashing and firings don’t count as they are not committed by society but individuals.
    They are condoned by society. Maybe not overtly like in the case of being able to legally fire someone for being gay but gay bashing is a "thing", a social fact.

    ---------- Post added at 11:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:48 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    So let’s go back to my happy successful gay friend. Assuming he has not been bashed or unjustly fired, I hope that he does not deserve reparations just because he is gay. Unless you can show why he deserves reparations, I do not agree that all gay people deserve reparations.
    Again, overwhelming exception.
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    You don't know what that fallacy is.
    "The fallacy of the single cause, also known as complex cause, causal oversimplification, causal reductionism, and reduction fallacy,[1] is a fallacy of questionable cause that occurs when it is assumed that there is a single, simple cause of an outcome when in reality it may have been caused by a number of only jointly sufficient causes."

    And again, I am not arguing that something is caused by a single cause so you are misusing the fallacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Persecution of a group is an injustice.
    But then not all persecutions or injustices warrant compensation.

    As you said "persecution" is an umbrella term and i would agree. But this umbrella covers both injustices that are worthy of compensation and injustices that are not worthy of compensation.

    So a term that is that broad does not, by its mere use, support that compensation is owed.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    They are condoned by society. Maybe not overtly like in the case of being able to legally fire someone for being gay but gay bashing is a "thing", a social fact.
    But it's not condoned by society. If you take a poll, I'm sure you will find that the majority are against firings over sexual orientation and support harsher penalty for hate crimes like gay bashing as opposed to a non-biased assault.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Again, overwhelming exception.
    Incorrect. The only reason that I've given limited examples of specific injustices that my gay friend hasn't suffered is because you've provided limited examples of specific compensatory-worthy injustices. I do think bashing and firings are worthy of compensation. If there are more for me to consider, it is up to you to forward them (I don't think being forced to live in the closet is worthy these days as it doesn't apply to most gays).

    And let's keep in mind where the burden lies. You are saying that all gays deserve reparations which means that:

    1. All gays have suffered compensatory-worthy injustices of some kind (bashed or fired or other specific injustices that you haven't mentioned yet.

    and/or

    2. There is a societal crime that has been committed against the whole gay community (like Holocaust or Slavery).

    So far you've provided specific crimes that most don't likely suffer and "umbrella" terms that aren't necessarily compensatory-worthy.

    So I have yet to see a case for reparations.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    "The fallacy of the single cause, also known as complex cause, causal oversimplification, causal reductionism, and reduction fallacy,[1] is a fallacy of questionable cause that occurs when it is assumed that there is a single, simple cause of an outcome when in reality it may have been caused by a number of only jointly sufficient causes."

    And again, I am not arguing that something is caused by a single cause so you are misusing the fallacy.
    That's exactly what you are arguing.

    ---------- Post added at 12:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:14 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But this umbrella covers both injustices that are worthy of compensation and injustices that are not worthy of compensation.
    How would you separate the two?

    ---------- Post added at 12:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:17 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But it's not condoned by society. If you take a poll, I'm sure you will find that the majority are against firings over sexual orientation and support harsher penalty for hate crimes like gay bashing as opposed to a non-biased assault.
    Straw man.

    ---------- Post added at 12:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:19 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Incorrect. The only reason that I've given limited examples of specific injustices that my gay friend hasn't suffered is because you've provided limited examples of specific compensatory-worthy injustices. I do think bashing and firings are worthy of compensation. If there are more for me to consider, it is up to you to forward them (I don't think being forced to live in the closet is worthy these days as it doesn't apply to most gays).
    Again, you're using that term wrong. You're saying that just because you can find one person who never felt the ill effects of persecution (I'd argue he still was persecuted) that it means all gays aren't due reparations. That is an overwhelming exception.

    ---------- Post added at 12:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:21 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    1. All gays have suffered compensatory-worthy injustices of some kind (bashed or fired or other specific injustices that you haven't mentioned yet.

    and/or

    2. There is a societal crime that has been committed against the whole gay community (like Holocaust or Slavery).

    So far you've provided specific crimes that most don't likely suffer and "umbrella" terms that aren't necessarily compensatory-worthy.

    So I have yet to see a case for reparations.
    I've shown both.
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    That's exactly what you are arguing.
    When you support that statement, I will bother responding to it.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    How would you separate the two?
    That's your problem. But as long as you use "umbrella" terms that can apply to injustices that aren't reparation-worthy, just using that term does not support that reparations are warranted.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Straw man.
    It rebuts your argument that society condones reparation-worthy injustices like firings and bashings. I will consider that argument retracted until you address my rebuttal.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Again, you're using that term wrong. You're saying that just because you can find one person who never felt the ill effects of persecution (I'd argue he still was persecuted) that it means all gays aren't due reparations. That is an overwhelming exception.
    No, because if you are arguing ALL gays deserve reparations, then even one not deserving shows you are incorrect.

    But then while I provided one example, I'm not saying that there's just one. I know plenty of gay people and as far as I know, only one suffered like that (I know one who got bashed once). Now, of course others could have suffered such things and I'm not aware. But I'd estimate that a majority hasn't been fired or bashed so it's not one, but most.

    So what is the percentage? If you are saying that a majority have been bashed/fired, please support. Otherwise, please address the possibility that most have not suffered individual compensatory-worthy injustices.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I've shown both.
    Neither,

    1. You have not shown that all, or even most, gays in today's society has suffer individual injustices

    nor

    2. Shown a specific society crime (or crimes) committed against the whole gay community.

    And don't respond with "yes I have". if you have or can, please present those specific injustices in your next post.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    That's your problem. But as long as you use "umbrella" terms that can apply to injustices that aren't reparation-worthy, just using that term does not support that reparations are warranted.
    Not my problem. You're the one claiming there are injustices that are not reparation worthy. Which are which? And why do you get to decide.

    ---------- Post added at 01:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:50 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    It rebuts your argument that society condones reparation-worthy injustices like firings and bashings. I will consider that argument retracted until you address my rebuttal.
    Maybe when you produce such a poll. Until then it is a straw man.

    ---------- Post added at 01:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:53 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    No, because if you are arguing ALL gays deserve reparations, then even one not deserving shows you are incorrect.

    But then while I provided one example, I'm not saying that there's just one. I know plenty of gay people and as far as I know, only one suffered like that (I know one who got bashed once). Now, of course others could have suffered such things and I'm not aware. But I'd estimate that a majority hasn't been fired or bashed so it's not one, but most.

    So what is the percentage? If you are saying that a majority have been bashed/fired, please support. Otherwise, please address the possibility that most have not suffered individual compensatory-worthy injustices.
    It's your hypothetical argument. You must support it. How many have been completely free from homophobia?

    ---------- Post added at 01:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:55 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    1. You have not shown that all, or even most, gays in today's society has suffer individual injustices
    You changed your definition, moving the goal posts. (not just in today's society also)

    ---------- Post added at 01:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:57 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    2. Shown a specific society crime (or crimes) committed against the whole gay community.
    I've already presented state and federal sanctions against the entire group.
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Not my problem. You're the one claiming there are injustices that are not reparation worthy. Which are which? And why do you get to decide.
    Shifting the burden. You are arguing that all injustices against gays are reparation worthy. Until you support that, I will consider the claim to be retracted.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Maybe when you produce such a poll. Until then it is a straw man.
    Until you provide a poll or some kind of support that people within this society, by a significant margin, approves of payment-worthy injustices against gays, I will consider your argument that society condones such things to be retracted.

    And since you did indeed argue that society condones injustices, my argument was not a straw man.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    It's your hypothetical argument. You must support it. How many have been completely free from homophobia?
    I didn't say free from homophobia. I said "suffered individual compensatory-worthy injustices."

    If it's not at least the majority who have suffered this, then there is no valid case for compensating all gays because of this. We only need to compensate those particular people who did suffer.

    So unless you are going to argue that the percentage of sufferers is significantly high, this issue is not a valid reason for reparations.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    You changed your definition, moving the goal posts. (not just in today's society also)
    Incorrect. I have ALWAYS been referring to today's society (since it's gays living today who would receive reparations. So my point stands so I will repeat it.

    1. You have not shown that all, or even most, gays in today's society has suffer individual injustices

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I've already presented state and federal sanctions against the entire group.
    But have not supported that there's any that warrant paying all gays reparations.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Shifting the burden. You are arguing that all injustices against gays are reparation worthy. Until you support that, I will consider the claim to be retracted.
    Maybe not individually, but that has not been my argument.

    ---------- Post added at 10:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:19 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Until you provide a poll or some kind of support that people within this society, by a significant margin, approves of payment-worthy injustices against gays, I will consider your argument that society condones such things to be retracted.

    And since you did indeed argue that society condones injustices, my argument was not a straw man.
    I have already produced support for the prevailing social attitude. That includes laws, sanctions, policies and believes from government, private institutions and individuals.

    ---------- Post added at 10:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:22 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I didn't say free from homophobia. I said "suffered individual compensatory-worthy injustices."

    If it's not at least the majority who have suffered this, then there is no valid case for compensating all gays because of this. We only need to compensate those particular people who did suffer.

    So unless you are going to argue that the percentage of sufferers is significantly high, this issue is not a valid reason for reparations.
    Since my support has shown that the prevailing social attitude was targeted at the entire group it is irrelevant, and an overwhelming exemption, if you produce one person who wasn't.

    ---------- Post added at 10:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:24 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Incorrect. I have ALWAYS been referring to today's society (since it's gays living today who would receive reparations. So my point stands so I will repeat it.

    1. You have not shown that all, or even most, gays in today's society has suffer individual injustices
    Just today? Not yesterday? Cherry picking.

    ---------- Post added at 10:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:28 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But have not supported that there's any that warrant paying all gays reparations.
    I have supported that persecution of the group has led to serious and continuing detrimental effects on said group indicated by their membership. Reparations are therefore warranted to correct the injustice and to aid the group in recovering.
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I have already produced support for the prevailing social attitude. That includes laws, sanctions, policies and believes from government, private institutions and individuals.
    Claims of support is not support.

    And I've certainly seen no support that the current prevailing social attitude is anti-gay. The prevailing social attitude and the law is that gay marriage is fine and the laws reflect that (really, gay marriage would not have been legalized if most people still opposed it). The examples you provided pale in comparison to that.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Since my support has shown that the prevailing social attitude was targeted at the entire group it is irrelevant, and an overwhelming exemption, if you produce one person who wasn't.
    I'm not referring to one person. I forward that most gays have not been bashed or fired. And before you ask me to support this, the original burden is with you. If you are going to argue that my assumption is incorrect and most gays have suffered such an injustice or something as bad, you will need to support it.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Just today? Not yesterday? Cherry picking.
    No it's not. Since we are discussing giving TODAY's gay community reparations, how they are treated TODAY by society is very pertinent and therefore the focus of my statement. So I will repeat again:

    1. You have not shown that all, or even most, gays in today's society has suffer individual injustices


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I have supported that persecution of the group has led to serious and continuing detrimental effects on said group indicated by their membership. Reparations are therefore warranted to correct the injustice and to aid the group in recovering.
    Claims of support is not support.

    And I'm not just saying "Nuh uh" here. We have had plenty of debate so far and as far as I know, I have successfully rebutted all of your argument so you can't just say "I already supported it" as if it has withstood all challenged. That's not to say it's impossible that there is some support that I didn't rebut sitting back on some post of yours but if there is, you need to present it and not just say you've succeeded and expect me to take your word for it.
    Last edited by mican333; August 27th, 2019 at 06:49 AM.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Claims of support is not support.

    And I've certainly seen no support that the current prevailing social attitude is anti-gay. The prevailing social attitude and the law is that gay marriage is fine and the laws reflect that (really, gay marriage would not have been legalized if most people still opposed it). The examples you provided pale in comparison to that.
    Ah, no. Gay marriage came about because of a judicial decision that was fiercely contested with the harshest terms and measures even after it was passed and there certainly is blow back in the form of "religious liberty" movements:

    Category three bills will have the greatest impact but will be “the most hotly contested” the playbook says – they include resolutions in favour of “biblical values concerning marriage and sexuality”, such as “establishing public policy favoring adoption by intact heterosexual, marriage-based families” and “establishing public policy favoring intimate sexual relations only between married, heterosexual couples”.

    The playbook warns that the most far-reaching model bills – designed to deny LGBT people access to adoption services or marriage services – are “more dangerous” because they will face well-organised and financed opposition.

    According to the Americans United for Separation of Church and State analysis, Oklahoma and Georgia have brought forward but not passed “adoption refusal” Child Protection bills. And six states have “wedding services refusal” measures, often framed as Pastor Protection bills, although none have become law.
    And, of course, my support comes from a wider range of time rather than just beginning this morning.

    ---------- Post added at 12:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:15 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I'm not referring to one person. I forward that most gays have not been bashed or fired. And before you ask me to support this, the original burden is with you. If you are going to argue that my assumption is incorrect and most gays have suffered such an injustice or something as bad, you will need to support it.
    You're trying to with your hypothetical friend. "bashed or fired", again, cherry picking. The persecution of homosexuals is far more extensive than that. And, like I've already supported a person doesn't have to be a direct victim to be influenced. Hence a cross burning across town affects more than just the person who's lawn it was on.

    ---------- Post added at 12:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:18 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    No it's not. Since we are discussing giving TODAY's gay community reparations, how they are treated TODAY by society is very pertinent and therefore the focus of my statement. So I will repeat again:

    1. You have not shown that all, or even most, gays in today's society has suffer individual injustices
    What time today, since 9 am maybe? Pure cherry picking. The legacy of homophobia on the current gay community has been supported therefore all of the injustices, no matter when they happened, must be rectified.

    ---------- Post added at 12:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:21 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Claims of support is not support.

    And I'm not just saying "Nuh uh" here. We have had plenty of debate so far and as far as I know, I have successfully rebutted all of your argument so you can't just say "I already supported it" as if it has withstood all challenged. That's not to say it's impossible that there is some support that I didn't rebut sitting back on some post of yours but if there is, you need to present it and not just say you've succeeded and expect me to take your word for it.
    Either you're very forgetful or you're being willfully ignorant. I produced support that gays are suffering from homophobia.

    In many cases, discrimination against and unfair treatment of LGBT persons remains legally permitted. The U.S. legal system does not prohibit discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity in several states, including workplace discrimination. Discrimination against LGBT persons in the workplace is a significant factor in socioeconomic differences for LGBT persons
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Ah, no. Gay marriage came about because of a judicial decision that was fiercely contested with the harshest terms and measures even after it was passed and there certainly is blow back in the form of "religious liberty" movements:
    It was fiercely opposed by a minority of the public. At the time it was legalized, the majority supported gay marriage and it's no coincidence that it was legalized AFTER the majority approved of it.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    And, of course, my support comes from a wider range of time rather than just beginning this morning.
    Well, the earliest you can give the entire gay population reparations is today so if all existing gays deserve reparations then every gay living today must be factored in and therefore we must show that every gay living TODAY has suffered a significant injustice.

    That's not to say that we must ignore injustices from the past but if you aren't including today's gays into the equation, then you have no case for reparations.

    Nor do I find the notion that SOME bigotry still remains within our laws to be a valid argument for reparations. The reason that such laws are being forwarded is because it used to be taken for granted that one could discriminate against gays in that fashion. Using the cake example, it used to be perfectly alright for ANY cake maker to refuse to bake a cake for a gay wedding. But now it's generally illegal to refuse gays service so if one wants to refuse to bake a cake they need to mount a legal battle to be able to do it. It used to be standard practice to not allow gay couples to adopt and now it's generally illegal to refuse to allow them to adopt so some bigots have mounted a legal fight to do what they used to not only be able to do but what the law insisted they do (not adopt to gay couples). We are not seeing a growing threat to gay's legal rights but a "last gasp" of institutionalized prejudice that, as far as I can tell, does not directly effect most gays (a vast majority have no problem getting a wedding cake).

    So yes, there still is some legally-enshrined bigotry left over and I'm all for removing every last vestige of it. But it doesn't amount to an argument for reparations.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    You're trying to with your hypothetical friend. "bashed or fired", again, cherry picking. The persecution of homosexuals is far more extensive than that. And, like I've already supported a person doesn't have to be a direct victim to be influenced. Hence a cross burning across town affects more than just the person who's lawn it was on.
    But there's a wide gulf between "some effect" and "an injustice worthy of financial compensation".

    You have not rebutted my argument that my gay friend does not necessarily deserve reparations. Nor have you rebutted that what applies to him might apply to MOST gays.

    If most gays have not been bashed or fired, then there must be other compensatory-worthy injustices that they have suffered and I have yet to see you forward them. Pretty much everything else you have is too vague for me to agree that they are reparation worthy.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    What time today, since 9 am maybe? Pure cherry picking.
    Since I have explained why today is relevant (you are talking about giving TODAY'S gays reparations), please stop saying that I am cherry picking. If you disagree that today is relevant, present an argument about why it's not relevant.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    The legacy of homophobia on the current gay community has been supported therefore all of the injustices, no matter when they happened, must be rectified.
    Which is a far cry from supporting that every gay has suffered an injustice of some kind that warrants compensation. When you can cross THAT threshold, then I will consider this a valid case or reparations. Again, there are many, many, many ways to address an injustice so you not only need to show that there is some kind of injustice, but that giving EVERY gay person LIVING today public money is the appropriate solution.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Either you're very forgetful or you're being willfully ignorant. I produced support that gays are suffering from homophobia.
    Then you are very forgetful or willfully ignorant on what the debate is about. It's not about whether homophobia exists or SOME gays suffer from its effects or SOME states still allow discriminatory laws on their books.

    It's about whether all gays deserve compensation for it which means it's about whether ALL gays have suffered an compensatory-worthy injustice. Not some, but ALL. They have not ALL been bashed and/or fired. And you have not shown any societal injustice that effects ALL GAYS LIVING TODAY in a way that they ALL deserve compensation.

    So to move this forward, let me issue a challenge.

    SUPPORT OR RETRACT that all gays living today have suffered an injustice that should be remedies by receiving public money.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    It was fiercely opposed by a minority of the public. At the time it was legalized, the majority supported gay marriage and it's no coincidence that it was legalized AFTER the majority approved of it.
    You'll have to support that. Gay marriage started here in Massachusetts as the result of a judicial case.

    ---------- Post added at 12:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:18 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Well, the earliest you can give the entire gay population reparations is today so if all existing gays deserve reparations then every gay living today must be factored in and therefore we must show that every gay living TODAY has suffered a significant injustice.
    and I have both in the injustices and their lingering effects.

    ---------- Post added at 12:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:19 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But there's a wide gulf between "some effect" and "an injustice worthy of financial compensation".
    Says who? Being terrorized into conformity isn't an injustice? It sure is.

    ---------- Post added at 12:22 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:21 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Since I have explained why today is relevant (you are talking about giving TODAY'S gays reparations), please stop saying that I am cherry picking. If you disagree that today is relevant, present an argument about why it's not relevant.
    Today isn't solely relevant, as is your claim.

    ---------- Post added at 12:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:22 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Which is a far cry from supporting that every gay has suffered an injustice of some kind that warrants compensation. When you can cross THAT threshold, then I will consider this a valid case or reparations. Again, there are many, many, many ways to address an injustice so you not only need to show that there is some kind of injustice, but that giving EVERY gay person LIVING today public money is the appropriate solution.
    Which, again, is not my argument nor my case to prove. That the gay community has suffered injustice has been supported. Members of that community deserve reparations.

    ---------- Post added at 12:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:24 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    SUPPORT OR RETRACT that all gays living today have suffered an injustice that should be remedies by receiving public money.
    I just did in my last post in the form of SES disparity. That is the legacy of homophobia combined with the continued homophobia being experienced today. In toto that is an injustice that must be rectified.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    You'll have to support that. Gay marriage started here in Massachusetts as the result of a judicial case.
    Shifting the burden. If you want to argue that the legalization of gay marriage was not directly influenced by a growing acceptance of gay marriage, you will need to support ti.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    and I have both in the injustices and their lingering effects.
    Not until you support that the lingering effects are significant enough to warrant compensation.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Says who? Being terrorized into conformity isn't an injustice? It sure is.
    And what percentage of today's gay population suffered such a thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Today isn't solely relevant, as is your claim.
    But it is relevant. If you are arguing that today's gays deserve reparations, then their current status is of relevance.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Which, again, is not my argument nor my case to prove. That the gay community has suffered injustice has been supported. Members of that community deserve reparations.
    Not all injustices warrant reparations so you can't make your case by referring to such a vague term as "injustice". There is a wide range of things that can qualify as an "injustice" so you need to spell out the specific injustices that warrant giving ALL gays reparations.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I just did in my last post in the form of SES disparity. That is the legacy of homophobia combined with the continued homophobia being experienced today. In toto that is an injustice that must be rectified.
    But unless it has resulted in all gays suffering a level of injustice that warrants reparations, that is not a valid case for them.

 

 
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