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Thread: Gay Reparations

  1. #21
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Why not? The teacher who feared for the loss of her job and successfully hid and altered her life and so wasn't fired deserves compensation as well. And what about the institution that was just following the law? Why are they accountable?
    I don't argue that the teacher doesn't deserve compensation.

    But whatever the solution is, it will be making it up to that specific teacher. If you aren't that teacher, then you, and any other gay person who isn't that teacher, does not deserve compensation for what that teacher went through.

    And I understand that there are other gay people who suffered like that teacher and a case could be made that they deserve compensation as well. But that has nothing to do with the gays who didn't go through that kind of stuff and therefore it does not equate a case for giving EVERY gay person compensation.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Sure, agreed, doesn't really make a difference.
    If you, a gay person, does not deserve compensation from me, a member of US heterosexual society, then it cannot be held that all gays deserve compensation from US heterosexual society.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Irrelevant to the discussion. We're talking about a historical ill.
    It is relevant to the discussion if you are holding the premise that all gays deserve compensation. If there's a gay person that do all of those things, then it cannot be said that gays are currently suffering these things and therefore deserve compensation for it.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Neither do I. Taxes are based on the ability to pay. I pay for plenty of things I'd rather not pay for.
    And I do not argue that people should never have to pay for things they don't want to pay for. If you make a successful argument for gay reparations, then I will be on board with paying those reparations regardless of whether others want to pay for them or not.

    So again, I don't see any relevance to the debate here.

  2. #22
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I don't argue that the teacher doesn't deserve compensation.

    But whatever the solution is, it will be making it up to that specific teacher. If you aren't that teacher, then you, and any other gay person who isn't that teacher, does not deserve compensation for what that teacher went through.

    And I understand that there are other gay people who suffered like that teacher and a case could be made that they deserve compensation as well. But that has nothing to do with the gays who didn't go through that kind of stuff and therefore it does not equate a case for giving EVERY gay person compensation.
    Ok, well that wipes out your argument that they should file a lawsuit against the specific institution. So, basically we're agreed. I'll take that. When the reparations come down we can have a statement like "If you've ever felt scarred or oppressed or threatened as a gay person sign up here". That phantom person that never did can choose to not sign up. I doubt there will be anyone. But ok.

    ---------- Post added at 11:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:15 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    It is relevant to the discussion if you are holding the premise that all gays deserve compensation. If there's a gay person that do all of those things, then it cannot be said that gays are currently suffering these things and therefore deserve compensation for it.
    Sure, I wouldn't be against a cut-off date as long as you can support that adequate protections are now in place.

    ---------- Post added at 11:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:17 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And I do not argue that people should never have to pay for things they don't want to pay for. If you make a successful argument for gay reparations, then I will be on board with paying those reparations regardless of whether others want to pay for them or not.
    I have. You admitted to it in my first response. The teacher who lived in fear has no recourse against their employer who was following the law.
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  3. #23
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Ok, well that wipes out your argument that they should file a lawsuit against the specific institution. So, basically we're agreed. I'll take that. When the reparations come down we can have a statement like "If you've ever felt scarred or oppressed or threatened as a gay person sign up here". That phantom person that never did can choose to not sign up. I doubt there will be anyone. But ok.
    Actually, I'd bet there are some gays who would not sign up. There are likely some who don't feel that they are significantly aggrieved to deserve compensation from others (especially those who are successful and wealthy - like I could see Elton John not bothering with it) or greedy enough to go for that money even if they don't think they deserve compensation (i'll wager that many gays are very honest people who sincerely feel that they don't deserve payment for whatever hassle they've gone through).

    And even those that did sign up would need to identify the specific institution/person that wronged them (for that is who would pay them if they won the case) and THEN they would actually have to win their case.

    And more to the point, the lawsuit would not be against heterosexual society in general so no matter what, gays would not be getting money from the whole society. SOME of them would get some money from individual institutions and besides that, the laws allowing gays to sue if they so choose already exists. So I'm not even proposing any change in our current laws. If you have the basis for a lawsuit against someone, then go ahead and sue them and if your case is good you will hopefully win and get compensation from them. And if you don't win the lawsuit then you get nothing.

    And I'm not even saying that the gays as a whole could not sue all of society and possibly win. But you are in essence saying that society should be found guilty and pay restitution and you have not successfully made that case here so I don't agree with your argument.

    But either way, this would not qualify as reparations for the gay community in general which is what the OP is arguing for.
    Last edited by mican333; July 30th, 2019 at 08:44 AM.

  4. #24
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    Sure. I'm pretty sure the Germans do something recognizing their past atrocious behavior.
    If you are asserting that America is Guilty towards the gays, in the same way that the Germans are guilty towards the Jews.
    Then you have a serious perspective problem.
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    If you are asserting that America is Guilty towards the gays, in the same way that the Germans are guilty towards the Jews.
    Then you have a serious perspective problem.
    Not the same. A similar issue. And the Germans didn't only persecute the Jews.

    ---------- Post added at 11:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:35 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Actually, I'd bet there are some gays who would not sign up. There are likely some who don't feel that they are significantly aggrieved to deserve compensation from others (especially those who are successful and wealthy - like I could see Elton John not bothering with it) or greedy enough to go for that money even if they don't think they deserve compensation (i'll wager that many gays are very honest people who sincerely feel that they don't deserve payment for whatever hassle they've gone through).
    Sure, we can make it voluntary. Kind of like a class action. Doesn't change much. Unless you're saying there's a population of gays that would be against it at all. Quite the difference. Just the botched handling of the AIDS epidemic alone would be of interest to Elton John.

    ---------- Post added at 11:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:41 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And even those that did sign up would need to identify the specific institution/person that wronged them (for that is who would pay them if they won the case) and THEN they would actually have to win their case.
    Right, but that would be separate.

    ---------- Post added at 11:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:41 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    And more to the point, the lawsuit would not be against heterosexual society in general so no matter what, gays would not be getting money from the whole society. SOME of them would get some money from individual institutions and besides that, the laws allowing gays to sue if they so choose already exists. So I'm not even proposing any change in our current laws. If you have the basis for a lawsuit adjacent someone, then sue them and if your case is good you will hopefully win and get compensation from them. And if you don't win the lawsuit then you get nothing.
    Ok, but you'd still get your reparations.

    ---------- Post added at 11:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:42 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    And I'm not even saying that the gays as a whole could not sue all of society and possibly win. But you are in essence saying that society should be found guilty and pay restitution and you have not successfully made that case here so I don't agree with your argument.
    I disagree.
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  6. #26
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Sure, we can make it voluntary. Kind of like a class action. Doesn't change much. Unless you're saying there's a population of gays that would be against it at all. Quite the difference. Just the botched handling of the AIDS epidemic alone would be of interest to Elton John.
    I think there is a population of gays who would be against trying to force all of society to give every gay person some money. If my argument is logically sound (and you have not shown that it's incorrect in any way where all observers of the our debate would have no choice but to agree with you instead of me) then it stands to reason that some gays will agree with it. While you may disagree with my argument, you do not speak for every gay person in the US and likewise cannot assume that they would all agree with you and none would agree with me..


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Right, but that would be separate.
    But if a gay person successfully sues the institution that discriminated against him and received a fair settlement, why would he deserve reparations from all of the heterosexuals who did not discriminate against him?



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I disagree.
    That won't suffice. The original argument is yours so the burden of supporting your argument is yours.

    If you are going to argue that the whole of society, as opposed to various specific individuals or institutions, has wronged the gay community as a whole in the way reparations are warranted, then you need to support that. You have pointed out individual examples of discrimination but have not explained why anyone other than the specific institutions that discrminated against those specific gay person should be giving restitution.

    If a school board discriminates against a gay teacher, I agree that the school board should be held accountable. But that has little to do with they gays who didn't work for the school district and it has little to do with any heterosexual who is not part of the school district so this, and any other individual example of discrimination, does not support the notion that the whole of society should be giving every gay person some money as restitution.

    Again, if every heterosexual owes every homosexual money, then I owe you money. So do I owe you money? If yes, support that I owe you money because of our respective sexual orientations. If not, then society does not owe homosexuals money.
    Last edited by mican333; July 30th, 2019 at 09:41 AM.

  7. #27
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    Not the same. A similar issue. And the Germans didn't only persecute the Jews.
    It isn't comparable.
    It's like you getting splashed in your bathtub.. and comparing it to the sinking of the Titanic.
    Sure they both involved water and are thus "similar".. but .. not really in any relevant way.

    But.. if your going to argue that it is similar.. do more than just say it is, because it is not a shared assumption.
    Walk me through it.
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  8. #28
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    It isn't comparable.
    It's like you getting splashed in your bathtub.. and comparing it to the sinking of the Titanic.
    Sure they both involved water and are thus "similar".. but .. not really in any relevant way.

    But.. if your going to argue that it is similar.. do more than just say it is, because it is not a shared assumption.
    Walk me through it.
    Are you saying homosexuals were not persecuted in this country?

    ---------- Post added at 10:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:46 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I think there is a population of gays who would be against trying to force all of society to give every gay person some money. If my argument is logically sound (and you have not shown that it's incorrect in any way where all observers of the our debate would have no choice but to agree with you instead of me) then it stands to reason that some gays will agree with it. While you may disagree with my argument, you do not speak for every gay person in the US and likewise cannot assume that they would all agree with you and none would agree with me..
    Neither do you.

    ---------- Post added at 10:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:47 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But if a gay person successfully sues the institution that discriminated against him and received a fair settlement, why would he deserve reparations from all of the heterosexuals who did not discriminate against him?
    Why wouldn't they?

    ---------- Post added at 10:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:48 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    Again, if every heterosexual owes every homosexual money, then I owe you money. So do I owe you money? If yes, support that I owe you money because of our respective sexual orientations. If not, then society does not owe homosexuals money.
    Again another mischaracterization. Society owes for the ills it perpetrated against a group. Unless you're saying these laws and policies didn't exist - along with prevailing attitudes - and that they still exist and continue to rear their ugly head, as in the trans ban.
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Neither do you.
    True. But then I didn't claim that all of the gays would agree with me on this issue.

    You essentially are saying that they would all go along and again, you can't say with any certainty what they all would do.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Why wouldn't they?
    Because there is no good reason for him to. At least you haven't provided one.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Again another mischaracterization. Society owes for the ills it perpetrated against a group. Unless you're saying these laws and policies didn't exist - along with prevailing attitudes - and that they still exist and continue to rear their ugly head, as in the trans ban.
    I am saying that no evidence has been provided that there currently exists in our society a level of discrimination, be it by the people, or the law, or the institutions, that warrants the whole of society giving every gay person an amount of money.

    Just because there are still some problems does not equate a good reason for gays to receive money from the whole of society.

    And no, I did not mischaracterize it. IF ALL OF SOCIETY (which I am a part of ) owes EVERY GAY PERSON (which you are a part of) then I owe you money. If I have it wrong, then which part am I mischaracterizing? Is it the part where my tax dollars are paid out or the part where you receive some of that tax money? If neither, then I've accurately stated what is going on.

  10. #30
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    True. But then I didn't claim that all of the gays would agree with me on this issue.
    Did I?

    ---------- Post added at 11:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:16 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Because there is no good reason for him to. At least you haven't provided one.
    I don't see a good reason for him not to be included.

    ---------- Post added at 11:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:17 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I am saying that no evidence has been provided that there currently exists in our society a level of discrimination, be it by the people, or the law, or the institutions, that warrants the whole of society giving every gay person an amount of money.

    Just because there are still some problems does not equate a good reason for gays to receive money from the whole of society.
    Sure there is and I've given plenty of examples.

    ---------- Post added at 11:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:19 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    I am saying that no evidence has been provided that there currently exists in our society a level of discrimination, be it by the people, or the law, or the institutions, that warrants the whole of society giving every gay person an amount of money.

    Just because there are still some problems does not equate a good reason for gays to receive money from the whole of society.
    That's your opinion and you're welcome to it. Laws and policies still exist.

    ---------- Post added at 11:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:25 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    And no, I did not mischaracterize it. IF ALL OF SOCIETY (which I am a part of ) owes EVERY GAY PERSON (which you are a part of) then I owe you money. If I have it wrong, then which part am I mischaracterizing? Is it the part where my tax dollars are paid out or the part where you receive some of that tax money? If neither, then I've accurately stated what is going on.
    It's about as absurd as when one of my students claims that his parents pay my salary. You sound unhinged.

    In this scenario society has been condemned, if you wish to feel condemned so be it. Maybe you did do something (or didn't) to bring about these feelings of guilt.
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  11. #31
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Did I?
    Pretty much. You said "Unless you're saying there's a population of gays that would be against it at all" which indicates that you don't think there would be a population of gays that would be against it.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I don't see a good reason for him not to be included.
    I don't see a good reason to implement the policy, let alone include him or anyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Sure there is and I've given plenty of examples.
    You've given examples of stuff but none of it leads to the conclusion that every gay person should receive taxpayer money.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    That's your opinion and you're welcome to it. Laws and policies still exist.
    And you have yet to show that any of them warrant reparations for gays.

    You can't just say "there are some problems so give all of the gays some money". I mean if you think that, then your opinion is noted. But if you are going to convince anyone else, such as in a debate like this, you will need to make an argument about why gays deserve money because of them.

    And likewise explain why I owe you money. I have supported multiple times that this is essentially what would happen and you have yet to justify it. So does ALL of society owe ALL of the gays money? If so, then I owe you money and you need to explain why I do. And if I don't owe you money then it's not true that my tax dollars should be spent on you and the other gays.

  12. #32
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    Are you saying homosexuals were not persecuted in this country?
    If by persecution you mean what the Gov of Nazies Germany did to the Jews, then absolutely not.
    If you mean some other sense.. then maybe.

    I think you listed some laws America had.. I'm fine with accepting that as "persecution".
    So now we are past IF it happened.. and now we are to the "How much money are we talking".

    Which means finding comparable situations. Which is your burden, as you are the one asking for money.
    You offered Nazi Germany.. and I reject that as being absurd. So.. have you got another? If not, your not out of luck.. you can argue for your own precedent.
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    If by persecution you mean what the Gov of Nazies Germany did to the Jews, then absolutely not.
    If you mean some other sense.. then maybe.
    It doesn't have to be exactly, neither do the reparations. I wouldn't argue that they should be the same amount of whatever Germany does for Jews.

    ---------- Post added at 12:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:37 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Pretty much. You said "Unless you're saying there's a population of gays that would be against it at all" which indicates that you don't think there would be a population of gays that would be against it.
    Perhaps there would be. I doubt it. Perhaps there would also be a population that would not take the money but be for the reparations anyways.

    ---------- Post added at 12:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:39 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    You've given examples of stuff but none of it leads to the conclusion that every gay person should receive taxpayer money.
    Of course it does. The policies were directed at the entire population, meaning that anyone could have been a victim.

    ---------- Post added at 12:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:41 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    And likewise explain why I owe you money. I have supported multiple times that this is essentially what would happen and you have yet to justify it. So does ALL of society owe ALL of the gays money? If so, then I owe you money and you need to explain why I do. And if I don't owe you money then it's not true that my tax dollars should be spent on you and the other gays.
    Like I said we all pay taxes. Perhaps I pay more than you. You think Elton John does?

    Yes, all of society owes all gays reparations for the way that population was treated.

    ---------- Post added at 12:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:45 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    You've given examples of stuff but none of it leads to the conclusion that every gay person should receive taxpayer money.
    You think AIDS didn't effect the entire gay population? So much so that it became synonymous with being gay?
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  14. #34
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Perhaps there would be. I doubt it. Perhaps there would also be a population that would not take the money but be for the reparations anyways.
    Either way, if you are going to argue that they all would accept it, it's your position to support. Otherwise this notion is rejected for lack of support.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Of course it does. The policies were directed at the entire population, meaning that anyone could have been a victim.
    But "could be a victim" is not "is a victim". If some are not victims, then they are not due what actual victims should receive.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Like I said we all pay taxes. Perhaps I pay more than you. You think Elton John does?

    Yes, all of society owes all gays reparations for the way that population was treated.
    Then by that logic, I owe you money. Since I'm a part of "all of society" that owes all gays (which includes you) reparations and you are gay, then I owe you money.

    So SUPPORT OR RETRACT that I owe you money because I'm part of all of society and you're gay.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    You think AIDS didn't effect the entire gay population? So much so that it became synonymous with being gay?
    I don't think AIDS is synonymous with being gay nor do I think there was a time when the general population thought that.

    And not just any effect warrants reparations. You need to get beyond just vaguely mentioning some injustice and then leaping to the conclusion that all gays are owed money. You need to actually connect the dots to make a case.
    Last edited by mican333; July 31st, 2019 at 05:22 PM.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    It doesn't have to be exactly, neither do the reparations. I wouldn't argue that they should be the same amount of whatever Germany does for Jews.
    Well, lets review.
    You said we should look at comparable events, and offered the Nazi/Jewish connection as a "comparable" event.
    I objected to that.
    And you agree that it isn't really comparable especially in the amount of reparations.

    So... the question I asked is still UN-answered.
    How much money we talking?
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Well, lets review.
    You said we should look at comparable events, and offered the Nazi/Jewish connection as a "comparable" event.
    I objected to that.
    And you agree that it isn't really comparable especially in the amount of reparations.
    I din't say they weren't comparable. They aren't the same. They do have similar characteristics such as systemic persecution of a group.

    ---------- Post added at 12:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:37 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post

    So... the question I asked is still UN-answered.
    How much money we talking?
    West Germany paid Israel a sum of 3 billion marks over the next fourteen years; 450 million marks were paid to the World Jewish Congress. The payments were made to the State of Israel as the heir to those victims who had no surviving family. The money was invested in the country's infrastructure, and played an important role in establishing the economy of the new state. Israel at the time faced a deep economic crisis and was heavily dependent on donations by foreign Jews, and the reparations, along with these donations, would help turn Israel into an economically viable country.
    So probably less than that, adjusted for inflation.

    ---------- Post added at 12:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:40 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Either way, if you are going to argue that they all would accept it, it's your position to support. Otherwise this notion is rejected for lack of support.
    I don't think I did argue that. If I did I retract it because, well, irrelevant.

    ---------- Post added at 12:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:42 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But "could be a victim" is not "is a victim". If some are not victims, then they are not due what actual victims should receive.
    So someone who was hidden during the holocaust wasn't a victim? No. Likewise someone who remained in the closet, married a beard, avoided parts of their country, or in any other way altered their lives is a victim. I'll agree not all situations are equal and those with prosecutable claims should also be allowed to make them.

    ---------- Post added at 12:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:47 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Then by that logic, I owe you money. Since I'm a part of "all of society" that owes all gays (which includes you) reparations and you are gay, then I owe you money.

    So SUPPORT OR RETRACT that I owe you money because I'm part of all of society and you're gay.
    Do you pay federal income tax? How much?

    ---------- Post added at 12:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:50 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I don't think AIDS is synonymous with being gay nor do I think there was a time when the general population thought that.
    Maybe not now, though it still lingers. I suppose that you're going to suggest that because there was a single person in Rhode Island that didn't think that it means it wasn't synonomous. But we're not talking about that, we're talking about the governmental response to it and the effect it had on the population - including attitudes towards gays. They were circularly related, yes. You had a plague break out in what seemed to be a population that was already hated and being targeted. Flubbing the response was politically expedient if compared to if it had happened in another group.

    ---------- Post added at 01:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:59 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    And not just any effect warrants reparations. You need to get beyond just vaguely mentioning some injustice and then leaping to the conclusion that all gays are owed money. You need to actually connect the dots to make a case.
    The page is full. There's no more room to place dots.
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    So someone who was hidden during the holocaust wasn't a victim? No. Likewise someone who remained in the closet, married a beard, avoided parts of their country, or in any other way altered their lives is a victim. I'll agree not all situations are equal and those with prosecutable claims should also be allowed to make them.
    Okay. But obviously those gays who never felt the social pressure to stay in the closet aren't eligible to claim victimhood over this issue so this does not equate to a valid argument for ALL gays receiving compensation.



    [QUOTE=CowboyX;566612]Do you pay federal income tax? How much?[/quote[

    1. Yes.
    2. None of your business.

    Now back to my challenge.

    Either support that I owe you money or the notion that I do is retracted and likewise any argument that all of society (including me) owes every gay person (including you) compensation.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Maybe not now, though it still lingers. I suppose that you're going to suggest that because there was a single person in Rhode Island that didn't think that it means it wasn't synonomous.
    No, I think practically no one thought it was synonymous. While some A-holes might have made gay-AIDS jokes back then, no one actually thought they were the same thing.


    [QUOTE=CowboyX;566612]But we're not talking about that, we're talking about the governmental response to it and the effect it had on the population - including attitudes towards gays. They were circularly related, yes. You had a plague break out in what seemed to be a population that was already hated and being targeted. Flubbing the response was politically expedient if compared to if it had happened in another group.[/wuote]

    But then the only victims of that were those who contracted AIDS. I assume you were not one of those people and therefore if compensation is to be paid for that, you are not an eligible recipient and therefore this is not a valid argument for giving every gay today (some of whom were born after this event) money.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    The page is full. There's no more room to place dots.
    Okay. So you refuse to explain why a particular incident means that all gays should receive reparations. But unfortunately that's what you need to do to make you case.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Okay. But obviously those gays who never felt the social pressure to stay in the closet aren't eligible to claim victimhood over this issue so this does not equate to a valid argument for ALL gays receiving compensation.
    Ok, those gays that claim out of the closet were also victimized by living in proscribed areas.

    ---------- Post added at 04:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:12 AM ----------

    [QUOTE=mican333;566619]
    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Do you pay federal income tax? How much?[/quote[

    1. Yes.
    2. None of your business.

    Now back to my challenge.

    Either support that I owe you money or the notion that I do is retracted and likewise any argument that all of society (including me) owes every gay person (including you) compensation.
    I have no evidence that I do. It could be that I pay a higher amount and therefore a higher percentage of the reparation bill than you do. Maybe you don't pay any.

    Society, however, has the duty to right an injustice.

    ---------- Post added at 04:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:16 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Okay. So you refuse to explain why a particular incident means that all gays should receive reparations. But unfortunately that's what you need to do to make you case.
    All gays should receive reparations in regards to a particular incident in that together*, with all of the other heinous act, policies, laws, etc, they are a pattern of behavior that impacts an entire sub-population or group for the purposes of persecution.

    Now by persecution here I mean a level higher above what I might call domination. The goal being more than to exploit or control a particular group and more to eradicate or remove a group or even to irrationally punish such as in what might be though of as "sinful".

    *Not that I don't think a single incident can have such effect. If the cross is burned on a person's lawn across town I would probably hear about it and "get the message". It might not, I might never hear about that one incident, but I sure know cross burning goes on.
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    I din't say they weren't comparable. They aren't the same. They do have similar characteristics such as systemic persecution of a group.
    But not to the same degree, and it is the degree that would effect the compensation.
    Just like, me accidentally cutting you would justify some compensation, but me accidentally cutting your leg off would justify a very different compensation.

    So it isn't enough to just point to other groups that were "persecuted" and say ... there we go lets fallow that.
    It simply isn't reasonable.


    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    So probably less than that, adjusted for inflation.
    Well establishing a ceiling that is clearly too much.. Is a good start.

    How about less than 40 acres and a mule, adjusted for inflation?
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Ok, those gays that claim out of the closet were also victimized by living in proscribed areas.
    Gays are currently free to live anywhere they want. And iff there is a particular area that doesn't welcome gays to such an extent that gays are effectively barred from living there, then THAT PARTICULAR PLACE is subject to a lawsuit, not the entire society.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I have no evidence that I do. It could be that I pay a higher amount and therefore a higher percentage of the reparation bill than you do. Maybe you don't pay any.

    Society, however, has the duty to right an injustice.
    Society has a duty to right an injustice that society has committed. Therefore if you are correct, then I, as a member of that society, share in that injustice that must be corrected. So again, what injustice have I participated in that warrants me giving every gay person money?

    You keep dodging this point. If the whole of society is guilty, then I am guilty as well. So I'm going to issue a challenge to move this point forward.

    I Challenge to support a claim. you to SUPPORT OR RETRACT that I, as a member of society, owe the gay community reparations due to some societal justice that I had something to do with.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    All gays should receive reparations in regards to a particular incident in that together*, with all of the other heinous act, policies, laws, etc, they are a pattern of behavior that impacts an entire sub-population or group for the purposes of persecution.
    I reject that assessment and therefore you must support it before it is to be accepted in this debate. I think there are currently gays who in no way can claim to be persecuted (nor would consider themselves persecuted) and therefore are not owed money due to a pattern of persecution.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Now by persecution here I mean a level higher above what I might call domination. The goal being more than to exploit or control a particular group and more to eradicate or remove a group or even to irrationally punish such as in what might be though of as "sinful".
    And I disagree that society at large is doing this.

    You may reasonably argue that society had done this decades ago and if we were in the, say, 1940s, you might have a case. But TODAY, I maintain, this is not happening and therefore there a plenty of gays, like the majority of them, who cannot reasonably claim to be persecuted as you have defined it.

    So SUPPORT OR RETRACT that the entirety of the gay community is current being persecuted as you have defined it.

    Note - I feel that you arguments are being repeated without support so I'm going to get more "challengey" now.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    *Not that I don't think a single incident can have such effect. If the cross is burned on a person's lawn across town I would probably hear about it and "get the message". It might not, I might never hear about that one incident, but I sure know cross burning goes on.
    Right. But if some bigots burnt a figurative cross on a gay person's lawn, therefore intimidating the whole gay community (it probably wouldn't intimidate them all but we can hold that it does for this analogy), the people who would deserve punishment are those particular people who burnt the cross, not the whole of society.

    That's seems to be the consistent error in your argument. You are arguing that all of society owes when the wrongdoers are just a segment of society. As I've brought up continuously, I don't think I have wronged any gay people to the extent that I owe them money or participated in some societal-level persecution that warrants the whole of society, including me, shelling out money. And despite bringing this up again and again, it has not been explained why I, and every other person in society who has not personally wronged any gays, should be paying them money.

    So please address this argument and tell me why I should pay money for the sins of others.

 

 
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