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Thread: Gay Reparations

  1. #41
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Gays are currently free to live anywhere they want. And iff there is a particular area that doesn't welcome gays to such an extent that gays are effectively barred from living there, then THAT PARTICULAR PLACE is subject to a lawsuit, not the entire society.
    Was that always the case?

    ---------- Post added at 09:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:28 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Society has a duty to right an injustice that society has committed. Therefore if you are correct, then I, as a member of that society, share in that injustice that must be corrected. So again, what injustice have I participated in that warrants me giving every gay person money?

    You keep dodging this point. If the whole of society is guilty, then I am guilty as well. So I'm going to issue a challenge to move this point forward.

    I Challenge to support a claim. you to SUPPORT OR RETRACT that I, as a member of society, owe the gay community reparations due to some societal justice that I had something to do with.
    You just answered your own challenge. Thank you.

    ---------- Post added at 09:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:29 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I reject that assessment and therefore you must support it before it is to be accepted in this debate. I think there are currently gays who in no way can claim to be persecuted (nor would consider themselves persecuted) and therefore are not owed money due to a pattern of persecution.
    and I think that there are not. An injustice to one individual is an injustice to all even if they do not consider or even know that they were persecuted. 14 year old me had no idea I was being treated unjustly. All I knew was to keep quiet and pretend to be something I wasn't.

    ---------- Post added at 09:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:34 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And I disagree that society at large is doing this.

    You may reasonably argue that society had done this decades ago and if we were in the, say, 1940s, you might have a case. But TODAY, I maintain, this is not happening and therefore there a plenty of gays, like the majority of them, who cannot reasonably claim to be persecuted as you have defined it.

    So SUPPORT OR RETRACT that the entirety of the gay community is current being persecuted as you have defined it.

    Note - I feel that you arguments are being repeated without support so I'm going to get more "challengey" now.
    I would agree that things have improved and would count some of those things as part of the reparations package. That June is Pride month and that it is so ubiquitous with fun and such a thumb in the eye of the disgusting bigots is wonderful. But you wanted to talk about the $ exclusively.

    Plenty to see here

    Anti-Transgender Bills
    These measures target transgender and nonbinary people for discrimination, such as by barring access to or even criminalizing the use of appropriate facilities, including restrooms, restricting transgender students’ ability to fully participate in school, authorizing healthcare discrimination against trans people, allowing religiously-motivated discrimination against trans people, or making it more difficult for trans people to get identification documents with their name and gender.

    First Amendment Defense Acts (FADAs)
    Allow anyone - including government employees, contractors, and for-profit businesses – to act with impunity based on religious beliefs or moral convictions regarding marriage for same-sex couples, sexual activity outside of heterosexual marriage, and transgender people. This would open the door to unprecedented taxpayer-funded discrimination. For example, government employees, government contractors or grantees – including those providing important social services like homeless shelters or drug treatment programs -- could discriminate against married same-sex couples and their families, single mothers, or anyone who has a sexual relationship outside of a marriage.

    Religious Freedom Restoration Acts (RFRAs)
    RFRAs make it easier for people to demand exemptions to generally applicable laws by allowing lawsuits challenging any governmental policy (such as non-discrimination laws) that someone says substantially burdens their religious beliefs. The government must prove that enforcing the policy is the least restrictive way of furthering a compelling governmental interest.

    Healthcare Exemptions
    Would allow those with religious objections to refuse care and undermine professional standards that apply equally to everyone. For instance, a high school guidance counselor could refuse to counsel a gay teenager, citing their sincerely held religious beliefs.


    ---------- Post added at 09:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:50 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Right. But if some bigots burnt a figurative cross on a gay person's lawn, therefore intimidating the whole gay community (it probably wouldn't intimidate them all but we can hold that it does for this analogy), the people who would deserve punishment are those particular people who burnt the cross, not the whole of society.
    Because, again, it wouldn't be you, it'd be society since it was society allowed such behavior to be so ubiquitous. Damn straight everyone knew what that cross burning meant. Just like everyone knew what it meant to be "gay bashed".
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  2. #42
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Was that always the case?
    Not necessarily. But we ARE talking about TODAY.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    You just answered your own challenge. Thank you.
    How so? Regardless you refused to support that claim when challenged so it's not retracted and it's established that it is not supported that I owe gays money and therefore not supported that all of society owes gays money. Please do not repeat that claim until you do support it.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    and I think that there are not. An injustice to one individual is an injustice to all even if they do not consider or even know that they were persecuted. 14 year old me had no idea I was being treated unjustly. All I knew was to keep quiet and pretend to be something I wasn't.
    So why do I (and the rest of society) owe you money because of that?


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I would agree that things have improved and would count some of those things as part of the reparations package. That June is Pride month and that it is so ubiquitous with fun and such a thumb in the eye of the disgusting bigots is wonderful. But you wanted to talk about the $ exclusively.
    Only because that's what reparations are.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Plenty to see
    And I have nothing to do with any of that (I oppose every single one of those) and therefore do not owe gays money.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Because, again, it wouldn't be you, it'd be society since it was society allowed such behavior to be so ubiquitous. Damn straight everyone knew what that cross burning meant. Just like everyone knew what it meant to be "gay bashed".
    You cannot differentiate me and society. I am part of society so if society has committed a crime against gays, then so have I. And conversely, if I haven't committed a crime against gays, then it cannot be said that society has done so.

    IN GENERAL, society is against gay bashing and want it prosecuted as a hate crime. The minority of those who would disagree or even bash gays themselves do not represent society as a whole. So if you want to argue that those who condone gay bashing should be sued, I don't think that's really a valid legal case but I don't object on principle. But then those people are not society and therefore society cannot reasonably be expected to pay for their crimes.

    If Joe bashes a gay and Frank approves bashing gays, Mican should not have to pay whatever penalty there is for their disgusting behavior/views.

  3. #43
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Not necessarily. But we ARE talking about TODAY.
    Not only.

    ---------- Post added at 11:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:06 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    How so? Regardless you refused to support that claim when challenged so it's not retracted and it's established that it is not supported that I owe gays money and therefore not supported that all of society owes gays money. Please do not repeat that claim until you do support it.
    "Society has a duty to right an injustice that society has committed." -you. Are you not a part of society?

    ---------- Post added at 11:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:08 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Only because that's what reparations are.
    Not necessarily: "the making of amends for a wrong one has done, by paying money to or otherwise helping those who have been wronged." google definition.

    ---------- Post added at 11:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:13 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    So why do I (and the rest of society) owe you money because of that?
    You don't. The check will come from the government.

    ---------- Post added at 11:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:14 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And I have nothing to do with any of that (I oppose every single one of those) and therefore do not owe gays money.
    Irrelevant.

    ---------- Post added at 11:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:15 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    You cannot differentiate me and society.
    Sure I can: You are not society.

    ---------- Post added at 11:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:16 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    If Joe bashes a gay and Frank approves bashing gays, Mican should not have to pay whatever penalty there is for their disgusting behavior/views.
    If your police department - acting in your name - drags its feet in the investigation into Joe or gives him a slap on the wrist because Frank's attitude is the most prevalent then, yes, you do. Just like our soldiers who act in our name. If one of them commits an atrocity we are all responsible for we enable them.
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  4. #44
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Okay.

    I realize that to address your points, I will need to repeat arguments I've already stated numerous times so as it is, this debate is going in circles. So I'm going to state and support via logic chain (where every point is either true or logically follows prior points) a series of arguments. And all of these arguments stand until you offer a rebuttal to them. And my response to your points will often be to refer you to the argument I'm providing.


    Argument 1 - Today's society as a whole has not committed an injustice to gays worthy of reparations.

    1. FACT - so far no particular injustice against the whole gay community has been pointed out that the whole of society (every single person within the society) is culpable for
    2. THEREFORE - it is not accepted that society as a whole has committed an injustice against the gay community as a whole'
    3. THEREFORE - It cannot be considered true that society as a whole has committed an injustice against the gay community as a whole'

    Argument 2 - The money used to pay for reparations will come, in part, from me.

    1. FACT - I'm a taxpayer who pays money to the government
    2. THEREFORE - The money that the government collects belong to, in part, me (as well as every other taxypayer)

    Argument 3 - If society owes the gay community money, then I owe the gay community money.

    1. FACT - I am part of society
    2. THEREFORE - Whatever sins the society as whole is guilty of, I am likewise guilty of.
    3. THEREFORE if society has committed an injustice against gays that warrant reparations, I likewise owe gays reparation.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Not only.
    If you are arguing that TODAY all gays deserve reparations, then regardless of what happened in the past, there needs to be injustices that they are suffering today.

    Past injustices that don't effect people today isn't particularly relevant to whether all gays today should receive reparations.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    "Society has a duty to right an injustice that society has committed." -you. Are you not a part of society?
    I am. But:

    Argument 1 - Today's society as a whole has not committed an injustice to gays worthy of reparations.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Not necessarily: "the making of amends for a wrong one has done, by paying money to or otherwise helping those who have been wronged." google definition.
    But there are no proposed solutions that will not be paid for with taxpayer money. If we increase health services for gays as a form of reparations, it's still going to be paid for by taxpayer dollars.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    You don't. The check will come from the government.
    see:

    Argument 2 - The money used to pay for reparations will come, in part, from me.

    So again, why do I (and every other taxpayer) owe you money?




    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Irrelevant.
    If we are to forward that I owe the gay community money due to injustices committed against them, then my culpability in these injustices is relevant.




    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Sure I can: You are not society.
    See:

    Argument 3 - If society owes the gay community money, then I owe the gay community money.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    If your police department - acting in your name - drags its feet in the investigation into Joe or gives him a slap on the wrist because Frank's attitude is the most prevalent then, yes, you do.
    No, the police department does. And more to the point, this HASN'T happened to my local police department so if this scenario happened in another city, I truly have no culpability in the situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Just like our soldiers who act in our name. If one of them commits an atrocity we are all responsible for we enable them.
    Actually, if a soldier commits a war crime overseas, the soldier is the one held responsible. If he does it on orders from a superior, the superior is likewise held responsible. I completely disagree that I am in any way culpable for what happened.

  5. #45
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Okay.

    I realize that to address your points, I will need to repeat arguments I've already stated numerous times so as it is, this debate is going in circles. So I'm going to state and support via logic chain (where every point is either true or logically follows prior points) a series of arguments. And all of these arguments stand until you offer a rebuttal to them. And my response to your points will often be to refer you to the argument I'm providing.


    Argument 1 - Today's society as a whole has not committed an injustice to gays worthy of reparations.

    1. FACT - so far no particular injustice against the whole gay community has been pointed out that the whole of society (every single person within the society) is culpable for
    That is a faulty generalization since you are only focused on "today" (does what happened yesterday count?) and a particular injustice (as apposed to all of them).

    ---------- Post added at 04:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:28 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post


    If you are arguing that TODAY all gays deserve reparations, then regardless of what happened in the past, there needs to be injustices that they are suffering today.

    Past injustices that don't effect people today isn't particularly relevant to whether all gays today should receive reparations.
    You are claiming an overwhelming exception. Why not just limit the injustice to the last 15 minutes?

    ---------- Post added at 04:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:35 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    But there are no proposed solutions that will not be paid for with taxpayer money. If we increase health services for gays as a form of reparations, it's still going to be paid for by taxpayer dollars.
    Sure there are. Many companies celebrated Pride month, didn't cost any tax money, many more even made money from it. Pride month is generally building in popularity with the rest of society. Doesn't have to cost anything.

    ---------- Post added at 04:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:39 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Actually, if a soldier commits a war crime overseas, the soldier is the one held responsible. If he does it on orders from a superior, the superior is likewise held responsible. I completely disagree that I am in any way culpable for what happened.
    You might be callous and unconcerned but that soldier is wearing a flag on his arm that stands for all of us whether you like it or not. Someone seeking revenge or justice won't discriminate. If a judgement is ever given against the government again, you'll be on the hook.

    ---------- Post added at 04:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:44 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    No, the police department does. And more to the point, this HASN'T happened to my local police department so if this scenario happened in another city, I truly have no culpability in the situation.
    Doesn't matter because that's only one example and you don't know the extent that these policies effected your community. Plus there was stuff done on the State and Federal level.
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    That is a faulty generalization since you are only focused on "today" (does what happened yesterday count?) and a particular injustice (as apposed to all of them).
    Are you not arguing that we should give every gay person living TODAY reparations? If so, then injustices that happened so long ago that they don't count as injustices to some of the gays living today, by themselves, do not equate a reason to give every gay person reparations.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    You are claiming an overwhelming exception. Why not just limit the injustice to the last 15 minutes?
    The issue isn't when the injustices occurred. The issue is that every gay person who is alive TODAY has to have been effected by an injustice in a fashion where they all deserve compensation.

    Since the AIDS catastrophe does not effect every gay person living today in such a fashion where compensation is warranted, it is not, by itself, a reason for reparations for all gays.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Sure there are. Many companies celebrated Pride month, didn't cost any tax money, many more even made money from it. Pride month is generally building in popularity with the rest of society. Doesn't have to cost anything.
    It's likewise not a government action. But I'll tell you what, if you want to say the PRIDE parade counts as "reparations" and therefore are not requesting any tax money be spent, then I have no problem with "reparations" as you are now defining it.

    My objection is people's tax money being spent. If you aren't suggesting that happen, then no problem. But of course the OP specifically says you "Can't wait to get my $$$" so we are discussing spending tax dollars for reparations, right?


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    You might be callous and unconcerned but that soldier is wearing a flag on his arm that stands for all of us whether you like it or not.
    But his actions don't always represent the entirety of the US. And that is particularly true if he breaks US law when commits a war crime.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Doesn't matter because that's only one example and you don't know the extent that these policies effected your community. Plus there was stuff done on the State and Federal level.
    But I'm not hearing an argument for how I'm responsible for any of this and therefore should pay money to the gays.
    Last edited by mican333; August 1st, 2019 at 01:36 PM.

  7. #47
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Are you not arguing that we should give every gay person living TODAY reparations? If so, then injustices that happened so long ago that they don't count as injustices to some of the gays living today, by themselves, do not equate a reason to give every gay person reparations.
    Society must make amends for injustices. When they happened is irrelevant. Mathew Shepard is dead, he has no need of money. Are you saying his murderers shouldn't be incarcerated?

    ---------- Post added at 03:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:55 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    The issue isn't when the injustices occurred. The issue is that every gay person who is alive TODAY has to have been effected by an injustice in a fashion where they all deserve compensation.

    Since the AIDS catastrophe does not effect every gay person living today in such a fashion where compensation is warranted, it is not, by itself, a reason for reparations for all gays.
    Likewise by your logic: People who died of AIDS or were otherwise harmed because of government bungling or malice don't deserve to have justice served. I disagree.

    ---------- Post added at 04:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:58 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    It's likewise not a government action. But I'll tell you what, if you want to say the PRIDE parade counts as "reparations" and therefore are not requesting any tax money be spent, then I have no problem with "reparations" as you are now defining it.

    My objection is people's tax money being spent. If you aren't suggesting that happen, then no problem. But of course the OP specifically says you "Can't wait to get my $$$" so we are discussing spending tax dollars for reparations, right?
    Sure. But you're just going to go back to the "I owe you money" which is a faulty generalization.

    ---------- Post added at 04:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:05 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But his actions don't always represent the entirety of the US. And that is particularly true if he breaks US law when commits a war crime.
    He or she does represent the entirety of the U.S. and we are all responsible. They would not be there but for us. So when the family of the victim seeks damages are you still going to be like "why do I owe you money?"..."you have to prove I had something directly to do with this?". Well, you did. Which is why civilian oversight is so important and we must always be vigilant.

    ---------- Post added at 04:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:11 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But I'm not hearing an argument for how I'm responsible for any of this and therefore should pay money to the gays.
    I'll refer to my last response.

    Likewise, (back to the AIDS epidemic) government inaction and even disgusting behavior set the tone toward an already vulnerable and population which was picked-up, echoed, and amplified in the rest of society. You might be able to make a chicken and egg argument in that this population was, in fact, already hated but that only bolsters my argument that hatred of homosexuals was the prevailing attitude of society and that, hey, if this eradicates them, well then, saves us the trouble.
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  8. #48
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Society must make amends for injustices. When they happened is irrelevant. Mathew Shepard is dead, he has no need of money. Are you saying his murderers shouldn't be incarcerated?
    They do need to have happened the gays living TODAY if gays living TODAY are deserving compensation for it. The injustice doesn't have to have happened today but it does need to be one that every gay living today has suffered from.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Likewise by your logic: People who died of AIDS or were otherwise harmed because of government bungling or malice don't deserve to have justice served. I disagree.
    I disagree that my logic would support such a conclusion so until you support that this is so, this comment will be ignored.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Sure. But you're just going to go back to the "I owe you money" which is a faulty generalization.
    Actually, that's my "argument 3" and you did not respond to it originally so it stands until you do rebut it. So here it is again:

    Argument 3 - If society owes the gay community money, then I owe the gay community money.

    1. FACT - I am part of society
    2. THEREFORE - Whatever sins the society as whole is guilty of, I am likewise guilty of.
    3. THEREFORE if society has committed an injustice against gays that warrant reparations, I likewise owe gays reparation.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    He or she does represent the entirety of the U.S. and we are all responsible. They would not be there but for us. So when the family of the victim seeks damages are you still going to be like "why do I owe you money?"..."you have to prove I had something directly to do with this?". Well, you did. Which is why civilian oversight is so important and we must always be vigilant.
    Clearly the way the law works when a soldier overseas commits a crime is that the ONLY the soldier is punished. If a higher up is punished, it's because that person had some kind of direct involvement in the crime as well (like ordered the crime to be carried out). So no, I am not held responsible, morally or financially, for what a soldier might do overseas. That is a fact of law. And of course you are not obliged to agree with the law as is and forward that the law should be changed so that I am held responsible for crimes of my countrymen. But then that is an opinion of yours and is an opinion that I don't agree with.

    So you need to present an argument for this that is based on something more concrete that that's how you think it should be. There needs to be a reason for someone who doesn't previously agree with you to change his mind and agree.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Likewise, (back to the AIDS epidemic) government inaction and even disgusting behavior set the tone toward an already vulnerable and population which was picked-up, echoed, and amplified in the rest of society. You might be able to make a chicken and egg argument in that this population was, in fact, already hated but that only bolsters my argument that hatred of homosexuals was the prevailing attitude of society and that, hey, if this eradicates them, well then, saves us the trouble.
    And if we were back in the 80s, this might equate for a reason for the society of the 80s to give reparations to the gay community of the 80s.

    But this does not equate reason for the society of 2019 to give reparations to the gays of the 2019. I would venture to guess a significant percentage of people today had nothing to do with this, either as a gay victim or a non-gay who bears moral responsibility on some level.

    So while you can say SOME gays were victimized by this and perhaps those specific gays should receive compensation, if you are going to argue ALL gays deserve compensation then you need to find a societal crime that victimized ALL gays. The AIDS catastrophe is not one of those.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    They do need to have happened the gays living TODAY if gays living TODAY are deserving compensation for it. The injustice doesn't have to have happened today but it does need to be one that every gay living today has suffered from.
    Fine. We can find the oldest living gay person and their birth date will be the cutoff point.

    ---------- Post added at 10:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:36 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I disagree that my logic would support such a conclusion so until you support that this is so, this comment will be ignored.
    But it does, they are dead. They are not living today. Further that injustice continued and expanded hate and prejudice against others who came after.

    ---------- Post added at 10:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:39 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Actually, that's my "argument 3" and you did not respond to it originally so it stands until you do rebut it. So here it is again:

    Argument 3 - If society owes the gay community money, then I owe the gay community money.

    1. FACT - I am part of society
    2. THEREFORE - Whatever sins the society as whole is guilty of, I am likewise guilty of.
    3. THEREFORE if society has committed an injustice against gays that warrant reparations, I likewise owe gays reparation.
    I wouldn't say "guilty" rather "responsible" or maybe accountable. No, responsible is good.

    I tentatively agree. What I objected to is the "I owe you money" part specifically.

    ---------- Post added at 10:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:44 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Clearly the way the law works when a soldier overseas commits a crime is that the ONLY the soldier is punished. If a higher up is punished, it's because that person had some kind of direct involvement in the crime as well (like ordered the crime to be carried out). So no, I am not held responsible, morally or financially, for what a soldier might do overseas. That is a fact of law. And of course you are not obliged to agree with the law as is and forward that the law should be changed so that I am held responsible for crimes of my countrymen. But then that is an opinion of yours and is an opinion that I don't agree with.

    So you need to present an argument for this that is based on something more concrete that that's how you think it should be. There needs to be a reason for someone who doesn't previously agree with you to change his mind and agree.
    But you would argue that you are held responsible. A payment is owed by our government, it is paid, so you owe. Right?

    ---------- Post added at 10:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:47 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    And if we were back in the 80s, this might equate for a reason for the society of the 80s to give reparations to the gay community of the 80s.

    But this does not equate reason for the society of 2019 to give reparations to the gays of the 2019. I would venture to guess a significant percentage of people today had nothing to do with this, either as a gay victim or a non-gay who bears moral responsibility on some level.

    So while you can say SOME gays were victimized by this and perhaps those specific gays should receive compensation, if you are going to argue ALL gays deserve compensation then you need to find a societal crime that victimized ALL gays. The AIDS catastrophe is not one of those.
    I just made that argument. The response to the AIDS outbreak was such a societal crime. And again you're claiming an overwhelming exception by trying to contain it to a certain decade when the ramifications continued.
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Fine. We can find the oldest living gay person and their birth date will be the cutoff point.
    No, you need to find an injustice that warrants reparations for every gay living today so, assuming the cutoff age is 18 (adulthood), you need to find a reason why every 18-year-old gay person (as well as any older gay) deserve reparations.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    But it does, they are dead. They are not living today. Further that injustice continued and expanded hate and prejudice against others who came after.
    I still don't see a valid criticism of "my logic" in this so I will ignore that notion in regards to "my argument".

    And if you are arguing that a past injustice has an echo that so significantly effects the lives of 18-year-old gays today that they deserve reparations, you will need to specifically show how this is so. Just saying it is will not suffice.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I wouldn't say "guilty" rather "responsible" or maybe accountable. No, responsible is good.

    I tentatively agree. What I objected to is the "I owe you money" part specifically.
    Then I guess I need to expand the logic chain to show that that is what you are saying.

    Argument 3 - If society owes the gay community money, then I owe you money

    1. FACT - I am part of society
    2. THEREFORE - Whatever sins the society as whole is to be held accountable for, I am likewise to be held accountable for.
    3. THEREFORE if society has committed an injustice against gays that warrant reparations, I likewise owe gays reparation.
    4. FACT - you are a member of the gay community
    5. THEREFORE - if society owes the gay community money, then society owes you money.
    6. THEREFORE - if society owes the gay community money, then I owe you money.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    But you would argue that you are held responsible. A payment is owed by our government, it is paid, so you owe. Right?
    IF the government pays the victims compensation, then I am partially paying for it, yes.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I just made that argument. The response to the AIDS outbreak was such a societal crime. And again you're claiming an overwhelming exception by trying to contain it to a certain decade when the ramifications continued.
    I disagree with premise that there are ramifications that effect TODAYs gays to the extent that they deserve compensation for it.

    If you are going to argue that that is the case, you will need to support it. How is an 18-year-old who was born decades after the AIDS catastrophe so negatively effected by it that he deserve compensation. I believe that whatever "ramifications" that he might experience or so subtle (likely completely unnoticeable to him) that he could not be considered a victim by any reasonable. And to be clear, I'm just telling you what I think and have no burden to support this until you support that this person is effectively a victim of the what occurred in the 80s to the point where he deserves compensation for it.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    No, you need to find an injustice that warrants reparations for every gay living today so, assuming the cutoff age is 18 (adulthood), you need to find a reason why every 18-year-old gay person (as well as any older gay) deserve reparations.
    Why 18? I don't think I have to do that. They are a part of the group that was treated unjustly. Society still exists - the group still exists.

    ---------- Post added at 11:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:55 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    And if you are arguing that a past injustice has an echo that so significantly effects the lives of 18-year-old gays today that they deserve reparations, you will need to specifically show how this is so. Just saying it is will not suffice.
    You're saying all prejudice against gays is gone? I think I've supported that just with the trans ban, but I provided much more.

    ---------- Post added at 12:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:59 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    Then I guess I need to expand the logic chain to show that that is what you are saying.

    Argument 3 - If society owes the gay community money, then I owe you money

    1. FACT - I am part of society
    2. THEREFORE - Whatever sins the society as whole is to be held accountable for, I am likewise to be held accountable for (as is everyone).
    3. THEREFORE if society has committed an injustice against gays that warrant reparations, I likewise owe gays reparation.
    4. FACT - you are a member of the gay community
    5. THEREFORE - if society owes the gay community money, then society owes you money.
    6. THEREFORE - if society owes the gay community money, then I owe you money (as does everyone, including myself).
    I'm not sure of the value of taking on guilt like that, but if that's what you want, ok.

    ---------- Post added at 12:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:02 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I disagree with premise that there are ramifications that effect TODAYs gays to the extent that they deserve compensation for it.

    If you are going to argue that that is the case, you will need to support it. How is an 18-year-old who was born decades after the AIDS catastrophe so negatively effected by it that he deserve compensation. I believe that whatever "ramifications" that he might experience or so subtle (likely completely unnoticeable to him) that he could not be considered a victim by any reasonable. And to be clear, I'm just telling you what I think and have no burden to support this until you support that this person is effectively a victim of the what occurred in the 80s to the point where he deserves compensation for it.
    And as I've shown various forms of systemic bigotry still exist - we just went through a tough gay marriage battle and just because we won doesn't mean there wasn't harm there. So like I argued and supported before the calculated harm is taken in total: what society did (all of it) to whom (all of them).
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Why 18? I don't think I have to do that. They are a part of the group that was treated unjustly. Society still exists - the group still exists.
    I mean 18+ (as in one needs to be an adult in order to receive reparations but if you want to argue children should get it as well, I won't bog down the debate by challenging that).

    If they are part of group that has been treated unjustly, then they have been treated unjustly as well. So again, how have gay 18 year olds been treated so that they deserve reparations?



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    You're saying all prejudice against gays is gone? I think I've supported that just with the trans ban, but I provided much more.
    First off gays and trans are not the same thing.

    And I'm not saying there is no prejudice against gays. But just pointing out that some people in our society don't like gays is not a valid reason for the whole society to give them reparations.





    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I'm not sure of the value of taking on guilt like that, but if that's what you want, ok.
    I've logically supported that position so unless you do challenge it, it must be accept as true for this debate.

    So now that we have established that if society owes gays money, then I owe you money. And conversely, if I DON'T owe you money, then it can't be said that society owes gays money (just the portions of society that wronged specific gays owes those specific gays money).

    So please support that I owe you money if you are going to argue that society owes gays money.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    And as I've shown various forms of systemic bigotry still exist - we just went through a tough gay marriage battle and just because we won doesn't mean there wasn't harm there.
    But did it harm EVERY gay in such a way that EVERY gay deserves compensation? If you are arguing it does, please support that assertion. Otherwise, this does not equate to an argument for giving all gays money.

    For example, there's a proposal to allow gay couples who were not allowed to file as "married" to be able to amend their prior tax returns to file as "married". That is a great example of the laws harming SPECIFIC gay couples in a tangible dollar-and-cents kind of way and this proposal would correct a specific injustice. And likewise I would think that I do deserve to pay into whatever this may cost for I was able to take advantage of a tax benefit that some deserving gay couples could not and therefore got money that should, in part, belong to them.

    But this has nothing to do with an 18yearold who has never been married in any way. So this does not equate to a reason to give that person nor any other gay that was not directly involved in this injustice money.

    Again, you keep failing to make the argument that there's something that directly effects ALL gays in a manner that they ALL deserve compensation. Your arguments for things that do effect them all (like general bigotry no matter how mild it may be nowadays) do not necessarily equate reparations-level injustice.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    So like I argued and supported before the calculated harm is taken in total: what society did (all of it) to whom (all of them).
    I've seen nothing resembling an actual calculation. I've seen neither an example that directly effects all gays nor an example that does effect all gays but has been shown to be something that tangibly warrants compensation. For example, I don't think gays are owed money because some people don't like gays.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    First off gays and trans are not the same thing.

    And I'm not saying there is no prejudice against gays. But just pointing out that some people in our society don't like gays is not a valid reason for the whole society to give them reparations.
    Gays and lesbians aren't the same thing either, so? They have been, historically, lumped together for persecution and have come together for mutual aid and protection. Hence LGBTQ+.

    It's not just some people, it's the president setting policy stemming from such other bigoted policies and rhetoric surrounding such things as the bathroom controversies.

    ---------- Post added at 09:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:17 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I've logically supported that position so unless you do challenge it, it must be accept as true for this debate.

    So now that we have established that if society owes gays money, then I owe you money. And conversely, if I DON'T owe you money, then it can't be said that society owes gays money (just the portions of society that wronged specific gays owes those specific gays money).

    So please support that I owe you money if you are going to argue that society owes gays money.
    Society owes the gay community money, as supported. How you feel about it is irrelevant. The technicalities of who pays is also irrelevant since I might end up owing myself.

    ---------- Post added at 09:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:24 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    But this has nothing to do with an 18yearold who has never been married in any way. So this does not equate to a reason to give that person nor any other gay that was not directly involved in this injustice money.

    Again, you keep failing to make the argument that there's something that directly effects ALL gays in a manner that they ALL deserve compensation. Your arguments for things that do effect them all (like general bigotry no matter how mild it may be nowadays) do not necessarily equate reparations-level injustice.
    Yeah, mild:

    Samuel Woodward, who was a member of the neo-Nazi group Atomwaffen Division, will face a hate-crime enhancement to a murder charge because of allegations that he killed Blaze Bernstein because the victim was gay, Orange County, Calif., District Attorney Tony Rackauckas said Thursday. Bernstein, 19, was also Jewish.

    The 21-year-old Woodward, who was charged with stabbing his former high school classmate more than 20 times, would face a maximum sentence of life without parole if convicted, as compared to a 26 years to life maximum without the hate-crime enhancement, prosecutors told the Los Angeles Times.

    “A hate-crime enhancement based on sexual orientation is appropriate due to the evidence developed by looking at Woodward’s cell phone, laptop, and social media,” Rackauckas said, referencing the fact that Orange County authorities found a large number of texts and images expressing homophobic, anti-Semitic, racist, misogynistic, and antigovernment ideology. “All of this revealed the dark side of Woodward’s thoughts and intentions.”

    Bernstein, who was a pre-med student at the University of Pennsylvania, reconnected with his Orange County School of the Arts classmates through Snapchat. Woodward, of Newport Beach, Calif., picked up the gay teen from his parents' house in the nearby town of Lake Forest when Bernstein was home for winter break last January. Then the two went to Borrego Park in Lake Forest. A search warrant obtained by The Orange County Register suggests that Bernstein may have leaned in for a kiss.

    Text messages from June 2017, however, indicate Woodward may have pursued Bernstein. The messages show Bernstein telling friends that Woodward "hit on me" and "he made me promise not to tell anyone … but I have texted every one, uh oh."

    Bernstein was found buried in a shallow grave at a park near his parents' home in January.


    ---------- Post added at 09:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:36 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I've seen nothing resembling an actual calculation. I've seen neither an example that directly effects all gays nor an example that does effect all gays but has been shown to be something that tangibly warrants compensation. For example, I don't think gays are owed money because some people don't like gays.
    I think an actual calculation would be impossible. The best we could do is estimate. How could we know of all the people who suffered in silence or otherwise altered their lives to avoid persecution?

    An hate attack against one is an attack against all.
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Gays and lesbians aren't the same thing either, so? They have been, historically, lumped together for persecution and have come together for mutual aid and protection. Hence LGBTQ+
    But the thread is about GAY reparations. It's the very title of the thread. So bringing a different group into it is moving the goalpost..

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    It's not just some people, it's the president setting policy stemming from such other bigoted policies and rhetoric surrounding such things as the bathroom controversies.
    Which is not focused on gays and therefore does not equate a reason to give gays reparations.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Society owes the gay community money, as supported. How you feel about it is irrelevant. The technicalities of who pays is also irrelevant since I might end up owing myself.
    It's not how I feel about it. It's about the supported argument I made. And I have supported, with a logic chain that if society owes gays money, then I owe you money. Blowing off my logic chain does not defeat it. So here it is again and it stands until you show that it's flawed in some way.

    1. FACT - I am part of society
    2. THEREFORE - Whatever sins the society as whole is to be held accountable for, I am likewise to be held accountable for.
    3. THEREFORE if society has committed an injustice against gays that warrant reparations, I likewise owe gays reparation.
    4. FACT - you are a member of the gay community
    5. THEREFORE - if society owes the gay community money, then society owes you money.
    6. THEREFORE - if society owes the gay community money, then I owe you money.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Yeah, mild.
    Of course what happened in that story is the opposite of mild. It's also the opposite of what I'm talking about in another manner - it was a crime against ONE person. My argument was referring to societal effects on ALL gay people.

    To repeat

    Again, you keep failing to make the argument that there's something that directly effects ALL gays in a manner that they ALL deserve compensation. Your arguments for things that do effect them all (like general bigotry no matter how mild it may be nowadays) do not necessarily equate reparations-level injustice.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I think an actual calculation would be impossible. The best we could do is estimate. How could we know of all the people who suffered in silence or otherwise altered their lives to avoid persecution?
    Well, I would start with this part of the calculation. Take the gay person who has had it the easiest (suffered the least). And then ask ourselves if THIS gay person has suffered from the hands of society to the point where he should receive monies for his sufferings. If the answer is no, then it's already determined that however we do figure out who is owned money, it's not every single gay person. So that right there rules out reparations for ALL gay people.

    Instead, what I would do if let individual gays, if they want, make their claim for compensation. Those that do have their cases weighed out in a legal manner and if it is determined that they are owed money, also figure out specifically who is the person/institution that owed them (and sometimes it might be society in general) and then pay them accordingly.

    Doesn't that sound about right? And of course since I never harmed you, I would not owe you money which sounds right as well (which would be different if we held that society owed all gays money).

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But the thread is about GAY reparations. It's the very title of the thread. So bringing a different group into it is moving the goalpost..
    Not really, but ok, we'll stick with gay as strictly referring to male. Anything would equally apply to a lesbian so it really is irrelevant.

    ---------- Post added at 12:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:59 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Which is not focused on gays and therefore does not equate a reason to give gays reparations.
    Sure, we can go right to don't ask don't tell - again, just as equally bigoted so just as equally irrelevant.

    ---------- Post added at 12:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:02 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Of course what happened in that story is the opposite of mild. It's also the opposite of what I'm talking about in another manner - it was a crime against ONE person. My argument was referring to societal effects on ALL gay people.

    To repeat

    Again, you keep failing to make the argument that there's something that directly effects ALL gays in a manner that they ALL deserve compensation. Your arguments for things that do effect them all (like general bigotry no matter how mild it may be nowadays) do not necessarily equate reparations-level injustice.
    The effect wasn't against one person.

    Gay and lesbian youth can develop severe forms of depression and anxiety as they grow up. 71.4% of LGBT people experience Major Depressive Disorder (MDD).[19] For LGBT individuals, MDD can be caused by any of the following: self-esteem, pressure to conform, minority stress, coming out, family rejection, parenting, relationship formation, and violence.[20]


    ---------- Post added at 12:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:09 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    Doesn't that sound about right? And of course since I never harmed you, I would not owe you money which sounds right as well (which would be different if we held that society owed all gays money).
    No, because you're shifting the burden. We're talking about a population of people that were frightened into silence and who knew that only would they not be listened to if they spoke up but they'd probably be retaliated against.
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Not really, but ok, we'll stick with gay as strictly referring to male. Anything would equally apply to a lesbian so it really is irrelevant.
    I assume you were referring to both gay males and gay females as there was never any differentiation between the two in the OP.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Sure, we can go right to don't ask don't tell - again, just as equally bigoted so just as equally irrelevant.
    It is pretty much irrelevant to gays who have joined the military after the policy was rescinded.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    The effect wasn't against one person.
    Nor was it against ALL gays. And also for suffering there is a degree of severity. Ultimately this is a civil suit and if one is to argue that any particular person has suffered enough to deserve compensation, it does need to be shown that the suffering was severe enough to warrant it. And if EVERY gay person is to receive compensation, then you need to show that EVERY gay person has suffered enough.

    And you haven't come close to doing that nor could you no matter how hard you tried because it's pretty clear that at least some gays have not suffered to that extent. I have a gay friend who I doubt feels that he has suffered enough to receive compensation. That's not to say that he never had a bad time due to bigotry but I doubt he thinks its bad enough to the point where I (as part of society) owes him money. If he was going to sue someone for damages, it would most likely be whoever directly bullied him (assuming he as bullied).

    Again, if you are to argue that all of society owes you money, then I owe you money. And I've noticed that you have not made that argument although it is a necessary premise of your argument. If I don't own you money, then it cannot be said that all of society owes every gay money.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    No, because you're shifting the burden. We're talking about a population of people that were frightened into silence and who knew that only would they not be listened to if they spoke up but they'd probably be retaliated against.
    No, we aren't. That's just SOME of the gays. Right now, there are almost certainly gays who had no issue identifying as gay as soon as they realized that they were gay and have been treated decently by their peers (that's not to say that they don't get a bit of guff from some A-holes).

    So for those who DID feel that they were oppressed by society in general and think they should sue society in general, go ahead and sue. So no, I'm not shifting the burden. I'm offering a reasonable alternative to address what harm has been done to gays that have been harmed than just giving every gay person money from society even if many of the gays don't really feel that they have suffered enough to deserve compensation and no matter how supportive some members of straight society have been.

    If gays who don't deserve money get it from straight people who don't deserve to pay it (and regardless of you argument, many people will feel that this is what is happening) it will increase straight resentment towards gays and likely increase straight bigotry against gays. So you would likely be harming straight-gay relationships just so you can get $!00 dollars from the straights.

    OTOH, with my proposal, where gays do point out specific injustices that warrant compensation from the parties who actually victimized them, it's going to be hard to argue that straights in general are being treated unfairly by gays and therefore not harm straight-gay relationships.

    I'm all for justice for past wrongdoings for the gays. I'm saying the remedy needs to specifically address specific wrongdoings with specific victims and specific perpetrators instead of just saying that all gays were equally harmed by all straights equally and so group 1 need to pay group 2 some money.

    ---------------------------------

    And here's a question. If all gays are entitled to money, then what's to stop a straight person from saying that they are gay and collect? For example, while I'm straight, I could say that I'm actually gay and have felt pressured to hide my sexual orientation due to societal bigotry against gays. Even if a straight man is married with children, it doesn't mean that he wasn't forced into "living a lie" due to societal bigotry (I do know gay men who were married to women earlier in life and have children).

    ------------------

    Can you put your argument in a logic chain like I did?

    Start with whatever fact(s) you want for point 1 and end with something like "THEREFORE - the entirely of the gay community is owed money by society".

    So far your logic chain seems to be something like

    FACT - (example of a straight person killing a gay person in a homophobic murder)
    2. ?
    3. THEREFORE - the entirely of the gay community is owed money by society

    I call this the "underpants gnome" style of argument (if you've seen the South Park episode, you should know what I mean). I don't see the logical link between whatever you forward and the conclusion. So could you make your argument via logic chain?
    Last edited by mican333; August 4th, 2019 at 09:01 AM.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    It is pretty much irrelevant to gays who have joined the military after the policy was rescinded.
    How about someone who never got to join?

    ---------- Post added at 09:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:45 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    Again, if you are to argue that all of society owes you money, then I owe you money. And I've noticed that you have not made that argument although it is a necessary premise of your argument. If I don't own you money, then it cannot be said that all of society owes every gay money.
    Because whether you, personally, owe me money is irrelevant.

    ---------- Post added at 09:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:47 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    just saying that all gays were equally harmed by all straights equally
    I never said that. That doesn't have to be the case.

    ---------- Post added at 09:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:49 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    Can you put your argument in a logic chain like I did?

    Start with whatever fact(s) you want for point 1 and end with something like "THEREFORE - the entirely of the gay community is owed money by society".
    No, I've already provided enough facts and shown where your logic chain was faulty.

    ---------- Post added at 11:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:50 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    It is pretty much irrelevant to gays who have joined the military after the policy was rescinded.
    It's also irrelevant since it just rears its ugly head elsewhere:

    Obama-era policies recognizing gender identity in schools and prisons were rolled back. The State Department banned diplomatic visas for unmarried same-sex partners of diplomats or employees of international agencies who work in the U.S.




    The Trump administration provided safe haven for anti-LGBT groups and individuals throughout the year, with a particular onslaught on transgender people in 2018. Anti-LGBT evangelical groups continue to enjoy unprecedented access to the White House and are intimately involved in forging public policy.
    ---------- Post added at 11:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:03 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    And here's a question. If all gays are entitled to money, then what's to stop a straight person from saying that they are gay and collect? For example, while I'm straight, I could say that I'm actually gay and have felt pressured to hide my sexual orientation due to societal bigotry against gays. Even if a straight man is married with children, it doesn't mean that he wasn't forced into "living a lie" due to societal bigotry (I do know gay men who were married to women earlier in life and have children).
    Which is the problem with such bigoted and irrational views:

    “If you’re a male — genetically you are a male, biologically you’re a male — and you say ‘Well, I’m not a male. I’m a female.’ I mean, what’s to keep you from saying you’re an animal?”
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    How about someone who never got to join?
    What about him?

    If you mean that maybe he should receive compensation for earlier refusal, you may be right. But that doesn't have anything to do with gays who are currently allowed to openly serve.


    [
    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Because whether you, personally, owe me money is irrelevant.
    It's not irrelevant to whether society owes gays money. Here is the argument again.

    1. FACT - I am part of society
    2. THEREFORE - Whatever sins the society as whole is to be held accountable for, I am likewise to be held accountable for.
    3. THEREFORE if society has committed an injustice against gays that warrant reparations, I likewise owe gays reparation.
    4. FACT - you are a member of the gay community
    5. THEREFORE - if society owes the gay community money, then society owes you money.
    6. THEREFORE - if society owes the gay community money, then I owe you money.

    And you completely ignored this last time I presented it so it still stands as supported.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    No, I've already provided enough facts and shown where your logic chain was faulty.
    First off, just claiming something doesn't make it so. If you've shown that my logic chain is faulty, please present the specific things you said that showed its flaw.

    Nor did you address what I was saying. Again, can you link your facts to your conclusion with a logic chain? If your argument is valid, you can.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    It's also irrelevant since it just rears its ugly head
    I don't see how this means that you are owed money.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Which is the problem with such bigoted and irrational views:

    “If you’re a male — genetically you are a male, biologically you’re a male — and you say ‘Well, I’m not a male. I’m a female.’ I mean, what’s to keep you from saying you’re an animal?”
    That doesn't answer my question.

    So again, if gays get reparations, how are you going to stop some straights from saying they are gay and collecting? And the answer is you really can't. Which also shows that there is no method to determine who was really harmed in a way that deserves compensation for societal oppression and those who don't. If someone who CLEARLY was not societally oppressed for being gay (such a straight man who lies about it), then there is no valid criteria for determining who deserves money. If the criteria was valid, there would be almost no way that a straight person could just lie to get reparation money.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    It's not irrelevant to whether society owes gays money. Here is the argument again.

    1. FACT - I am part of society
    2. THEREFORE - Whatever sins the society as whole is to be held accountable for, I am likewise to be held accountable for.
    3. THEREFORE if society has committed an injustice against gays that warrant reparations, I likewise owe gays reparation.
    4. FACT - you are a member of the gay community
    5. THEREFORE - if society owes the gay community money, then society owes you money.
    6. THEREFORE - if society owes the gay community money, then I owe you money.

    And you completely ignored this last time I presented it so it still stands as supported.
    How so? How does whether you owe me money effect whether society owes me money?

    If I'm owed a tax return then you owe me money, right? So?

    ---------- Post added at 12:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:59 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    That doesn't answer my question.

    So again, if gays get reparations, how are you going to stop some straights from saying they are gay and collecting? And the answer is you really can't. Which also shows that there is no method to determine who was really harmed in a way that deserves compensation for societal oppression and those who don't. If someone who CLEARLY was not societally oppressed for being gay (such a straight man who lies about it), then there is no valid criteria for determining who deserves money. If the criteria was valid, there would be almost no way that a straight person could just lie to get reparation money.
    Sure, people lie about all sorts of things. I could lie on a job application, when applying for food stamps, whatever. You're saying there's no way to discourage that? Or are you claiming an exception again in this case that we have to be absolutely certain and that if anyone abuses the system it should be thrown out?

    ---------- Post added at 12:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:03 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I don't see how this means that you are owed money.
    It counters your argument that bigotry against gays is over.

    ---------- Post added at 12:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:04 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    It's not irrelevant to whether society owes gays money. Here is the argument again.

    1. FACT - I am part of society
    2. THEREFORE - Whatever sins the society as whole is to be held accountable for, I am likewise to be held accountable for.
    3. THEREFORE if society has committed an injustice against gays that warrant reparations, I likewise owe gays reparation.
    4. FACT - you are a member of the gay community
    5. THEREFORE - if society owes the gay community money, then society owes you money.
    6. THEREFORE - if society owes the gay community money, then I owe you money.

    And you completely ignored this last time I presented it so it still stands as supported.
    I think I pretty much agreed with this in post 49 with my additions.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    How so? How does whether you owe me money effect whether society owes me money?
    That's a question. Not a rebuttal to my logic chain so its conclusion stands until you do offer a rebuttal.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    If I'm owed a tax return then you owe me money, right? So?
    No, typically when you get a tax refund, you are getting your own money back (you paid too much so you get some of it back).

    But besides that, the issue is whether I owe you money because I'm straight and you're gay. Since you can't show how I do owe you money, it stands to reason that you are not entitled to reparations from the whole of society.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Sure, people lie about all sorts of things. I could lie on a job application, when applying for food stamps, whatever. You're saying there's no way to discourage that? Or are you claiming an exception again in this case that we have to be absolutely certain and that if anyone abuses the system it should be thrown out?
    I'm saying that a valid system of reparations must show that people who are to receive reparations have actually suffered in a manner that warrants payment. So if ANYONE, whether they are gay or straight, can be eligible for just saying that they are gay, then the bar is not set at people who can provably shown that they were harmed just because they were gay.

    If ALL gays provably suffered, then ALL gay people can show that they suffered and obviously just saying "I'm gay" does not meet that bar for that's something that even non-gays can do it.

    Being gay and fired from a job because you are gay IS a reason for compensation. Or being gay and bullied. Or being gay and discriminated in housing. But just identifying as gay is not enough because, again, a straight person can do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    It counters your argument that bigotry against gays is over.
    I didn't say that bigotry no longer exists.

    If some dude yells a slur at you, that shows that bigotry still exists. But I don't owe you money because of that.

 

 
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