Welcome guest, is this your first visit? Create Account now to join.
  • Login:

Welcome to the Online Debate Network.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.

Page 4 of 14 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 273

Thread: Gay Reparations

  1. #61
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    2,885
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    No, typically when you get a tax refund, you are getting your own money back (you paid too much so you get some of it back).

    But besides that, the issue is whether I owe you money because I'm straight and you're gay. Since you can't show how I do owe you money, it stands to reason that you are not entitled to reparations from the whole of society.
    No, assuming my withholding is correct my money is taken away - it is no longer mine, right?

    I don't even know if you pay taxes and if you did if you would end up owing me or I you.

    ---------- Post added at 01:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:29 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I'm saying that a valid system of reparations must show that people who are to receive reparations have actually suffered in a manner that warrants payment. So if ANYONE, whether they are gay or straight, can be eligible for just saying that they are gay, then the bar is not set at people who can provably shown that they were harmed just because they were gay.

    If ALL gays provably suffered, then ALL gay people can show that they suffered and obviously just saying "I'm gay" does not meet that bar for that's something that even non-gays can do it.

    Being gay and fired from a job because you are gay IS a reason for compensation. Or being gay and bullied. Or being gay and discriminated in housing. But just identifying as gay is not enough because, again, a straight person can do that.
    I think I've given enough examples, both historical and contemporaneous, of homosexuals as a minority targeted for persecution. I'm going to have to protest if you are denying this.

    A straight person being bullied is being bullied. They aren't being bullied because they are straight.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  2. #62
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    East Lansing, MI
    Posts
    10,636
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    No, assuming my withholding is correct my money is taken away - it is no longer mine, right?

    I don't even know if you pay taxes and if you did if you would end up owing me or I you.
    I do pay money. And if you got, say, $100 from the government because you are gay, that money is, in part, coming from me so if gays are owed reparations from straights, then I owe you money because you are gay and I am straight.

    This has been supported with my logic chain.

    And until you can show why I owe you money because of our respective sexual orientations, the position tha gays deserve reparations is not supported.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I think I've given enough examples, both historical and contemporaneous, of homosexuals as a minority targeted for persecution. I'm going to have to protest if you are denying this.
    I don't deny you've given numerous examples of bigotry against gays both past and present. But you have not shown that every single gay who lives today has suffered in a fashion where reparations for all gays are justified.

    Again, you seem to be engaging in an "underpants gnome" argument (do you get the reference?). Your argument, in logic chain form would be:

    1. Gays have been suffered from societal persecution in the past and some suffer from bigotry today
    2. ?
    3. THEREFORE society owes gays reparations.

    What's point 2? If you don't have it, then you've not shown that because of 1, the conclusion (point 3) is supported.




    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    A straight person being bullied is being bullied. They aren't being bullied because they are straight.
    But if a gay person is bullied for being gay, it's not my fault and therefore I don't owe reparations to gays because of it. Pretty much the only person who should be held accountable is the bully and the only person who would deserve reparations for the act of bullying (assuming it's even bad enough to warrant financial compensation) is the specific victim, not the whole of gay society.
    Last edited by mican333; August 5th, 2019 at 05:13 PM.

  3. #63
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    2,885
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I do pay money. And if you got, say, $100 from the government because you are gay, that money is, in part, coming from me so if gays are owed reparations from straights, then I owe you money because you are gay and I am straight.
    I pay money too, so I could just be getting my money back.

    ---------- Post added at 10:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:49 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I don't deny you've given numerous examples of bigotry against gays both past and present. But you have not shown that every single gay who lives today has suffered in a fashion where reparations for all gays are justified.

    Again, you seem to be engaging in an "underpants gnome" argument (do you get the reference?). Your argument, in logic chain form would be:

    1. Gays have been suffered from societal persecution in the past and some suffer from bigotry today
    2. ?
    3. THEREFORE society owes gays reparations.

    What's point 2? If you don't have it, then you've not shown that because of 1, the conclusion (point 3) is supported.
    Does there have to be a 2?

    How about:

    Reparations are the way we atone for injustice.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  4. #64
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    East Lansing, MI
    Posts
    10,636
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I pay money too, so I could just be getting my money back.
    You would be. But that doesn't change the fact that I would be giving you some of my money as well.

    So do I owe you money? If yes, support that I do. If not, then society doesn't owe you money



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Does there have to be a 2?
    Because 3 does not automatically follow 1. So there needs to be something to link them.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    How about:

    Reparations are the way we atone for injustice.
    So we get:

    1. Gays have been suffered from societal persecution in the past and some suffer from bigotry today
    2. Reparations are the way we atone for injustice
    3. THEREFORE society owes gays reparations.

    3 does not necessarily follow 1 & 2. It could be true that gays suffered from bigotry, reparations are a way to atone for an injustice, but it's still not true that every gay is owed reparations (since perhaps some gays did not suffer an injustice and therefore do not deserve reparations.

    A logic chain that would do it would be.

    1. Gays have been suffered from societal persecution in the past and some suffer from bigotry today
    2. Reparations are the way we atone for injustice
    3. All gays living today have suffered an injustice that deserve reparations to atone for what they suffered.
    4. THEREFORE society owes gays reparations.

    And that would be a valid logic chain, The conclusion (4) is the necessary conclusion of points 1,2,3.

    But the problem is that I don't accept point 3 as I don't think All gays living today have suffered an injustice deserve reparations to atone for what they suffered and you have not supported that that is the case. The reparation-worthy injustices that you have forwarded in this debate were not suffered by all gays.

  5. #65
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    2,885
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But if a gay person is bullied for being gay, it's not my fault and therefore I don't owe reparations to gays because of it. Pretty much the only person who should be held accountable is the bully and the only person who would deserve reparations for the act of bullying (assuming it's even bad enough to warrant financial compensation) is the specific victim, not the whole of gay society.
    It's society's fault as supported by my numerous examples. Let's say he's bullied at school (where a lot of this behavior is learned - as supported). The school has a duty of care and this went unfulfilled. Society has failed to protect that individual.

    Again, you keep claiming and overwhelming exception - because you think you had nothing to do with it - and that shows that all of society isn't responsible. It may be true that you had nothing to do with it. I can't think of an example. I mean, even if you were in suspended animation, you're still responsible for the structure of society before you were frozen.

    ---------- Post added at 11:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:10 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    You would be. But that doesn't change the fact that I would be giving you some of my money as well.

    So do I owe you money? If yes, support that I do. If not, then society doesn't owe you money
    I don't think you owe me money. All I got back was the money I paid.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  6. #66
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    East Lansing, MI
    Posts
    10,636
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    It's society's fault as supported by my numerous examples. Let's say he's bullied at school (where a lot of this behavior is learned - as supported). The school has a duty of care and this went unfulfilled. Society has failed to protect that individual.
    No, the school failed and the school should perhaps be sued for it. That doesn't mean that the rest of society should pay.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    IAgain, you keep claiming and overwhelming exception - because you think you had nothing to do with it - and that shows that all of society isn't responsible. It may be true that you had nothing to do with it. I can't think of an example. I mean, even if you were in suspended animation, you're still responsible for the structure of society before you were frozen.
    And if there was a SOCIETAL persecution that harmed ALL OF THE GAYS LIVING TODAY in such a way that all of them deserve compensation, then you might have a case that I should, as a member of society, pay my fair share.

    But you have never made such a case. And don't just say "yes I have". If you have before, you will need to paste it into your next post.

    What injustice has effected every gay person living today to such an extent that they are all owed money for it (so it can't be a subtle thing).


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I don't think you owe me money. All I got back was the money I paid.
    I have supported that if society owes gays money, then I owe you money as well.

    So if I don't owe you money, then gays don't deserve reparation. If that's your position, then I guess we are done.

    Or if you disagree and hold that society does owe gays money, then I owe you money and you need to explain why I do.

    In fact, SUPPORT OR RETRACT that I owe you money just because you are gay and I am straight.

  7. #67
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    2,885
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    A logic chain that would do it would be.

    1. Gays have been suffered from societal persecution in the past and some suffer from bigotry today
    2. Reparations are the way we atone for injustice
    3. All gays living today have suffered an injustice that deserve reparations to atone for what they suffered.
    4. THEREFORE society owes gays reparations.

    And that would be a valid logic chain, The conclusion (4) is the necessary conclusion of points 1,2,3.

    But the problem is that I don't accept point 3 as I don't think All gays living today have suffered an injustice deserve reparations to atone for what they suffered and you have not supported that that is the case. The reparation-worthy injustices that you have forwarded in this debate were not suffered by all gays.
    Ok, good:

    3. All gays have suffered under all of the past, present, and continuing injustices in toto and deserve reparations.

    ---------- Post added at 11:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:20 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    No, the school failed and the school should perhaps be sued for it. That doesn't mean that the rest of society should pay.
    And when the school pays, you'll pay, no?

    ---------- Post added at 11:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:23 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And if there was a SOCIETAL persecution that harmed ALL OF THE GAYS LIVING TODAY in such a way that all of them deserve compensation, then you might have a case that I should, as a member of society, pay my fair share.

    But you have never made such a case. And don't just say "yes I have". If you have before, you will need to paste it into your next post.

    What injustice has effected every gay person living today to such an extent that they are all owed money for it (so it can't be a subtle thing).
    I'm going to take exception for the "ALL OF THE GAYS LIVING TODAY" as irrelevant. If someone is no longer living is irrelevant since they are due justice.

    ---------- Post added at 11:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:24 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    In fact, SUPPORT OR RETRACT that I owe you money just because you are gay and I am straight.
    I've never said that. If I somehow did I retract it because it is absurd. I have no idea what your financial situation is. You could consume way more tax money than you pay in or pay none at all. Your specific example is worthless to the debate.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  8. #68
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    East Lansing, MI
    Posts
    10,636
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    3. All gays have suffered under all of the past, present, and continuing injustices in toto and deserve reparations.

    I think you need to change it to:

    3. All gays have suffered under all of the past, present, and continuing injustices in toto to such an extent that they all deserve reparations.

    And while I agree that that works as a logic chain, I reject the conclusion because I disagree with point 3 so it needs to be supported before the conclusion can be accepted.

    So I suggest you make a logic chain with point 3 as the conclusion.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    And when the school pays, you'll pay, no?
    No. I don't pay taxes to that school district. My local tax dollars have never gone to paying a gay student for inadequate protection.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I'm going to take exception for the "ALL OF THE GAYS LIVING TODAY" as irrelevant. If someone is no longer living is irrelevant since they are due justice.
    You might other gays besides those living today are due justice, but you do agree that all of the gays living today deserve compensation, right?

    If not, then clearly there's no need for reparations for gays.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I've never said that. If I somehow did I retract it because it is absurd. I have no idea what your financial situation is. You could consume way more tax money than you pay in or pay none at all. Your specific example is worthless to the debate.
    I pay taxes and therefore if you get reparations, some of the money comes from me. This issue has been settled several posts ago with my logic chain which you said you accepted it. Here it is again.

    1. FACT - I am part of society
    2. THEREFORE - Whatever sins the society as whole is to be held accountable for, I am likewise to be held accountable for.
    3. THEREFORE if society has committed an injustice against gays that warrant reparations, I likewise owe gays reparation.
    4. FACT - you are a member of the gay community
    5. THEREFORE - if society owes the gay community money, then society owes you money.
    6. THEREFORE - if society owes the gay community money, then I owe you money.

    So I'll just say that since I don't owe you money, society does not owe gays reparations.

    If you disagree, then tell me why I owe you money.
    Last edited by mican333; August 5th, 2019 at 08:05 PM.

  9. #69
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    2,885
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    No. I don't pay taxes to that school district. My local tax dollars have never gone to paying a gay student for inadequate protection.
    Your federal dollars do.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  10. #70
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    East Lansing, MI
    Posts
    10,636
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Your federal dollars do.
    I don't know if the fund that would make the payment includes federal dollars. If you are saying it definitely does, please support.

    But this is practically a side-point.

    I take it you don't have a rebuttal to my argument which supports that society does not owe gays money (since I don't owe you money).

  11. #71
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    2,885
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I don't know if the fund that would make the payment includes federal dollars. If you are saying it definitely does, please support.
    Doesn't matter..."I don't pay taxes to that school district." Post 70. The school is supported federally therefore all Americans are responsible for it.

    ---------- Post added at 12:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:40 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    1. FACT - I am part of society
    2. THEREFORE - Whatever sins the society as whole is to be held accountable for, I am likewise to be held accountable for.
    3. THEREFORE if society has committed an injustice against gays that warrant reparations, I likewise owe gays reparation.
    4. FACT - you are a member of the gay community
    5. THEREFORE - if society owes the gay community money, then society owes you money.
    6. THEREFORE - if society owes the gay community money, then I owe you money.
    Ok, good. Moving on.

    ---------- Post added at 01:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:44 AM ----------

    Support for any kind of argument that this is not gone, currently happening, a thing, etc.:

    An Ohio Republican state lawmaker on Sunday blamed mass shootings in the US on former President Barack Obama, "fatherlessness," video games and "drag queen advocates" following two shootings this weekend in Texas and Ohio that left more than 30 dead. The state's Republican Party is now calling for her resignation.

    "The breakdown of the traditional American family (thank you, transgender, homosexual marriage, and drag queen advocates); fatherlessness, a subject no one discusses or believes is relevant; the ignoring of violent video games," Keller wrote in the post.
    https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/05/polit...ngs/index.html
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  12. #72
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    East Lansing, MI
    Posts
    10,636
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Doesn't matter..."I don't pay taxes to that school district." Post 70. The school is supported federally therefore all Americans are responsible for it.
    Schools are also funded by local tax dollars and the dollars are not all mixed together so things can be paid for without federal dollars. So you have not supported that any such lawsuit would be paid for by federal dollars.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Ok, good. Moving on.
    If I don't owe you money, than society does not owe gays money (per the logic chain) and we don't need reparations.

    And you've never even attempted to argue that I owe you money because of our respective sexual orientations.

    So I have succeeded in supporting that gay are not owe reparations.

    So if you mean "You've shown that gays aren't owed reparations. Moving on", then I guess we are done here.

    And if that's not what you mean, then we aren't moving on and you need to rebut my support (or it stands and we are done).


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Support for any kind of argument that this is not gone, currently happening, a thing, etc.
    If you mean some people are still bigoted against gays, I never argued otherwise. So this does not rebut any arguments of mine.

  13. #73
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    2,885
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Schools are also funded by local tax dollars and the dollars are not all mixed together so things can be paid for without federal dollars. So you have not supported that any such lawsuit would be paid for by federal dollars.
    I'm not talking about the lawsuit payout. The school itself is supported by you. You are therefore responsible for what it does.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  14. #74
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    East Lansing, MI
    Posts
    10,636
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I'm not talking about the lawsuit payout. The school itself is supported by you. You are therefore responsible for what it does.
    Not in any moral sense. And likewise if none of my tax dollars goes to paying off the lawsuit, I’m not responsible in any financial or legal sense.

    So I hold I am not responsible for the reaction of that particular school.

  15. #75
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    2,885
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Not in any moral sense.
    What does that mean?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  16. #76
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    East Lansing, MI
    Posts
    10,636
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    What does that mean?
    I personally neither bullied the kid nor failed to appropriately punish the bully. Therefore I assume no moral responsibility in that wrongdoing.

  17. #77
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    2,885
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I personally neither bullied the kid nor failed to appropriately punish the bully. Therefore I assume no moral responsibility in that wrongdoing.
    Ok, but you participated in the creation of the system that did.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  18. #78
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    East Lansing, MI
    Posts
    10,636
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Ok, but you participated in the creation of the system that did.
    If you mean the federal government, they hold no moral responsibility for that event either. It was the school board that had a duty to punish the bully and failed to do so, not the federal government. In fact, assuming the kid wins his lawsuit against the school board, it would be because of society not allowing schools to ignored such bullying. So if anything, I’m responsible for the kid getting justice.

  19. #79
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    2,885
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    So if anything, I’m responsible for the kid getting justice.
    Accepted.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  20. #80
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    East Lansing, MI
    Posts
    10,636
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Accepted.
    So I don't feel that I owe any gay person any money just because I'm straight and they are gay and therefore, per my logic chain, have supported that straights in general don't owe gays reparations.

 

 
Page 4 of 14 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Reparations In An Obama Presidency.
    By onalandline in forum Social Issues
    Replies: 40
    Last Post: November 17th, 2008, 11:22 PM
  2. Reparations!
    By wanxtrmBANNED in forum History
    Replies: 121
    Last Post: September 2nd, 2007, 08:30 AM
  3. UK sued for 'reparations'.
    By FruitandNut in forum Current Events
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: November 4th, 2006, 01:30 PM
  4. Slavery reparations? Give me a break.
    By KevinBrowning in forum Politics
    Replies: 79
    Last Post: August 27th, 2004, 05:16 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •