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Thread: Gay Reparations

  1. #81
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    So I don't feel that I owe any gay person any money just because I'm straight and they are gay and therefore, per my logic chain, have supported that straights in general don't owe gays reparations.
    You've agreed that you owe them justice. Good enough.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  2. #82
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    You've agreed that you owe them justice. Good enough.
    We owe everyone, gay and straight, justice.

    So this in no way moves us towards a case for giving gays something that we don't give straights.

  3. #83
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    We owe everyone, gay and straight, justice.

    So this in no way moves us towards a case for giving gays something that we don't give straights.
    Straights are not a persecuted group.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  4. #84
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Straights are not a persecuted group.
    Nor are they, as a group, currently persecuted to the extent that today reparations are warranted.

  5. #85
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Nor are they, as a group, currently persecuted to the extent that today reparations are warranted.
    I've supported that they are currently both targeted and persecuted and that that in addition to all of the past persecution presents an unanswered injustice that must be corrected.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  6. #86
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I've supported that they are currently both targeted and persecuted and that that in addition to all of the past persecution presents an unanswered injustice that must be corrected.
    You have not supported that as a group, gays are currently persecuted to the extent that reparations are warranted.

    Again, I don’t Owe you money because of our respective sexual orientation, the entirety of society does not own the entirety of the gay community reparations. I have supported this with a Logic chain

  7. #87
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    You have not supported that as a group, gays are currently persecuted to the extent that reparations are warranted.
    That ignores past persecutions, which are injustices, and which you agree must be corrected.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  8. #88
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    That ignores past persecutions, which are injustices, and which you agree must be corrected.
    I don’t see how giving every gay in today’s society some money corrects injustices against different gays of the past.

    If we are to Address the justices of the past, I would say a societal recognition and apology would be in order. Plus, it might be appropriate to give the survivors of prior injustices some money. But I see no reason to give gays who were not victims of injustices of yesteryear money due to those injustices.

  9. #89
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I don’t see how giving every gay in today’s society some money corrects injustices against different gays of the past.

    If we are to Address the justices of the past, I would say a societal recognition and apology would be in order. Plus, it might be appropriate to give the survivors of prior injustices some money. But I see no reason to give gays who were not victims of injustices of yesteryear money due to those injustices.
    Here's an example of a reparations plan for descendants of slaves:

    "I have proposed $200 to $500 billion to be disbursed over a period of 20 years. It would be this reparations council that decides how is the money disbursed within the context of the stipulation on the part of the US government that the money is be used for economic and educational renewal."

    This doesn't address Jim Crow or Massive Incarceration which I think should also be included but is built on the premise that those injustices have a lasting effect on today's population. As I've supported within the gay population - high rates of mental illness, suicide, homelessness, drug use, etc. - on top of continued efforts to scapegoat and persecute.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  10. #90
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Here's an example of a reparations plan for descendants of slaves:

    "I have proposed $200 to $500 billion to be disbursed over a period of 20 years. It would be this reparations council that decides how is the money disbursed within the context of the stipulation on the part of the US government that the money is be used for economic and educational renewal."

    This doesn't address Jim Crow or Massive Incarceration which I think should also be included but is built on the premise that those injustices have a lasting effect on today's population. As I've supported within the gay population - high rates of mental illness, suicide, homelessness, drug use, etc. - on top of continued efforts to scapegoat and persecute.
    First off, it is not an accepted premise that we should pay black reparations either. IF we were to debate that, then we would need to look at the specific reasoning for such reparations and assuming when THAT debate was over, I conceded that we should pay blacks reparations, THEN we would see if the reasoning for giving blacks reparations would apply to gays. And from my perspective, one of the best reasons to give blacks reparations, that they were used for free labor for a large portion of American history (and therefore their descendants are entitled to back pay for that), definitely does not apply to gays (for gays were not used for free labor). So the issue of black reparations does not really factor into whether gays should receive reparations.

    One issue is that todays gays are not descendants of the gays of yesterdays (since gays are much more likely to be offspring of straight people than gay people while black people are descendants of black people) so every gay person born today was born into TODAY's society, not the society of yesteryear and therefore whatever crimes were committed against the gays of yesteryear were not commited against the gays of today nor their parents (with very few exceptions). So when looking at whether we should give money to a particular gay who is living today, the case has to be made that that particular gay has been victimized by society at large to such an extent that society at large owes him money and in general, I don't think the answer is "yes'. The more dramatic cases of persecution (like the gay kid getting bullied at school and the school board ignoring it) are adequately addressed by holding the half dozen or so people responsible for the injustice responsible and there is NO NEED to hold ME responsible and take MY tax dollars to correct this.

    And concerning the injustices of yesteryear, I don't oppose doing something to address it on a societal level. But giving you money does not seem like the solution we are looking for. You weren't the victim (I assume) so it doesn't address the injustice of someone in the past to give you money.

  11. #91
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    One issue is that todays gays are not descendants of the gays of yesterdays (since gays are much more likely to be offspring of straight people than gay people while black people are descendants of black people) so every gay person born today was born into TODAY's society, not the society of yesteryear and therefore whatever crimes were committed against the gays of yesteryear were not commited against the gays of today nor their parents (with very few exceptions). So when looking at whether we should give money to a particular gay who is living today, the case has to be made that that particular gay has been victimized by society at large to such an extent that society at large owes him money and in general, I don't think the answer is "yes'. The more dramatic cases of persecution (like the gay kid getting bullied at school and the school board ignoring it) are adequately addressed by holding the half dozen or so people responsible for the injustice responsible and there is NO NEED to hold ME responsible and take MY tax dollars to correct this.
    Your apples to oranges comparison fails in that it relies on the premise that the injustice is genetically transmitted. We're talking about society's treatment of a group as a whole. New members entering that group inherit that legacy and suffer its continued effects.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  12. #92
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Your apples to oranges comparison fails in that it relies on the premise that the injustice is genetically transmitted. We're talking about society's treatment of a group as a whole. New members entering that group inherit that legacy and suffer its continued effects.
    Gays do not inherit the economic injustice that blacks inherit.

    I will support this with a logic chain.

    1. FACT - in the past, blacks suffered from societal economic injustice which lead to them being poorer than whites
    2. FACT - how rich or poor one is today is heavily influenced by whether one is born to rich or poor parents
    3. FACT - today's blacks are born from people who were economically disadvantaged by racists policies of yesteryear.
    3. THEREFORE - The relative poverty of blacks compared to whites is, in part, a direct result of racist policies of yesteryear.

    And of course this logic does not apply to gays.

    1. FACT - in the past, gays suffered from societal economic injustice which lead to them being poorer than straights
    2. FACT - how rich or poor one is today is heavily influenced by whether one is born to rich or poor parents
    3. FACT - today's gays are just as likely to born to wealthy households as poor households.
    3. THEREFORE - The relative poverty of gays compared to straights is not a result of the bigoted policies of yesteryear.


    If gays are economically disadvantaged today, it is because of specific bigotry by specific people (like someone who fires a gay person because they are gay) and the remedy is for that specific gay person to sue that specific employer.

    Again, you never get to explaining why I should pay money or you specifically should receive money from me. If a jerk wronged you out of bigotry, then THAT jerk should be your target for correcting that injustice, not me.

  13. #93
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    Again, you never get to explaining why I should pay money or you specifically should receive money from me. If a jerk wronged you out of bigotry, then THAT jerk should be your target for correcting that injustice, not me.
    We've already covered that unless you're retracting your logic chain.

    ---------- Post added at 11:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:45 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Gays do not inherit the economic injustice that blacks inherit.

    I will support this with a logic chain.

    1. FACT - in the past, blacks suffered from societal economic injustice which lead to them being poorer than whites
    2. FACT - how rich or poor one is today is heavily influenced by whether one is born to rich or poor parents
    3. FACT - today's blacks are born from people who were economically disadvantaged by racists policies of yesteryear.
    3. THEREFORE - The relative poverty of blacks compared to whites is, in part, a direct result of racist policies of yesteryear.

    And of course this logic does not apply to gays.

    1. FACT - in the past, gays suffered from societal economic injustice which lead to them being poorer than straights
    2. FACT - how rich or poor one is today is heavily influenced by whether one is born to rich or poor parents
    3. FACT - today's gays are just as likely to born to wealthy households as poor households.
    3. THEREFORE - The relative poverty of gays compared to straights is not a result of the bigoted policies of yesteryear.
    So if you're adopted there's no transfer of the injustice?

    Also, the economic condition of the person today isn't the injustice, it is the result of the injustice

    ---------- Post added at 11:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:50 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    2. FACT - how rich or poor one is today is heavily influenced by whether one is born to rich or poor parents
    Not exclusively. If your parents threw you out for being gay it has a huge detrimental effect. Also, being shunned by other of society's institutions such as churches and being denied equal opportunities such as being able to join the military, be a school teacher etc.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  14. #94
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    We've already covered that unless you're retracting your logic chain.
    No, my logic chain still stands and therefore it likewise stands that gays aren't owed reparations (since that is what my logic chain supports).


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    So if you're adopted there's no transfer of the injustice?
    What the point of that question?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Also, the economic condition of the person today isn't the injustice, it is the result of the injustice
    But as I supported, the economic injustices of the past do not economically effect gays today.

    The only economic injustices that effect gays today are TODAY's economic injustices.

    If, say, forty years ago a gay man was fired because he was gay, it does not effect the economic situation of any gays living today (unless their economic fortunes were somehow tied to that particular man). And if anyone is to receive compensation for that man being fired, it is that particular man, not you or the rest of today's gay population.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Not exclusively. If your parents threw you out for being gay it has a huge detrimental effect. Also, being shunned by other of society's institutions such as churches and being denied equal opportunities such as being able to join the military, be a school teacher etc.
    Which only effects TODAYS gays to the extent that they are still practiced TODAY.

    I never said that we should not compensate specific victims of bigotry today but it needs to handled on a case-by-case basis, not by just giving every gay person money whether they suffered compensatory-worthy discrimination or not.

  15. #95
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    No, my logic chain still stands and therefore it likewise stands that gays aren't owed reparations (since that is what my logic chain supports).
    You conceded through your logic chain that if reparations are owed you owe (as do we all).

    ---------- Post added at 12:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:11 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    But as I supported, the economic injustices of the past do not economically effect gays today.

    The only economic injustices that effect gays today are TODAY's economic injustices.

    If, say, forty years ago a gay man was fired because he was gay, it does not effect the economic situation of any gays living today (unless their economic fortunes were somehow tied to that particular man). And if anyone is to receive compensation for that man being fired, it is that particular man, not you or the rest of today's gay population.
    But they do as they perpetuate and legitimatize a prevailing attitude - as I just supported with the congresswoman irrationally blaming things on gays - "traditional family" "that's how things have always been" etc.

    ---------- Post added at 12:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:14 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    If, say, forty years ago a gay man was fired because he was gay, it does not effect the economic situation of any gays living today
    Are you saying nobody is still alive from 40 years ago?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  16. #96
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    Which only effects TODAYS gays to the extent that they are still practiced TODAY.
    Right, which rebutts your argument that this still isn't going on.

    ---------- Post added at 12:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:16 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Right. And you have never supported that I owe gays (as in all of them including you) any money and therefore reparations are not owed.
    I don't have to. All I have to show is society owes, which I've done. You've conceded the rest so I'm not going to respond to it anymore.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  17. #97
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    You conceded through your logic chain that if reparations are owed you owe (as do we all).
    Right. And you have never supported that I owe gays (as in all of them including you) any money and therefore reparations are not owed.

    The default position for whether anyone owes any money is that they don't. For example, I don't owe my brother any money until a situation arises where it is shown that I do owe him money.

    So until you show that I owe you money, I don't owe gays money and therefore do not owe reparations. Since you haven't done that yet, it stands that gays aren't owed reparations.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Right, which rebutts your argument that this still isn't going on.
    What's "this" exactly? Do you mean societal-wide discrimination against gays that warrant giving every one of them compensation for what they all suffered? No, that is not going on today.

    What is going on is occasional discrimination that sometimes rises to the level where a PARTICULAR gay has a civil case against a specific person/institution and can be resolved in our court system. We don't need reparations to right that kind of wrong.

  18. #98
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And if anyone is to receive compensation for that man being fired, it is that particular man, not you or the rest of today's gay population.
    What about the school teacher that was never able to live her life. Had to remain closeted or otherwise alter her life different from someone else. Nobody to sue there, she was never fired.

    ---------- Post added at 12:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:20 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    What's "this" exactly? Do you mean societal-wide discrimination against gays that warrant giving every one of them compensation for what they all suffered? No, that is not going on today.
    And I've already rebutted that with support about how societal ills effect the gay population disproportionately.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  19. #99
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    What about the school teacher that was never able to live her life. Had to remain closeted or otherwise alter her life different from someone else. Nobody to sue there, she was never fired.
    What about her? You brought it up so you make the point.

    I guess if you think that that INDIVIDUAL deserves some compensation, I don't know if that's legally sound but don't object on moral grounds.

    But then what about a happy, successful gay man who was never significantly bullied, lead a happy life, found success in an environment that was generally supportive of him and in no way feels that society has screwed him over (although he encountered occasional bigots but beyond a few bummer moments didn't really get in his way) and feels that society in general owes him nothing. I actually know a guy like that although I haven't queried him about his exact views but he is happily married and successful and well-liked - he's even a local celebrity of sorts. Should he get compensation? What if he vehemently disagrees that he deserves compensation.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    And I've already rebutted that with support about how societal ills effect the gay population disproportionately.
    Vaguely referring to a past argument of yours that was likely vague as well is not a rebuttal.

    I you are saying that there is CURRENTLY a societal-wide discrimination that effects EVERY gay person to such an extent that THEY ALL deserve compensation for it, please make an explicit case that this is so.

    ----------------------

    And let me forward this again since it really is my support and was not responded to

    You have never supported that I owe gays (as in all of them including you) any money and therefore reparations are not owed.

    The default position for whether anyone owes any money is that they don't. For example, I don't owe my brother any money until a situation arises where it is shown that I do owe him money.

    So until you show that I owe you money, I don't owe gays money and therefore do not owe reparations. Since you haven't done that yet, it stands that gays aren't owed reparations.

  20. #100
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    And let me forward this again since it really is my support and was not responded to

    You have never supported that I owe gays (as in all of them including you) any money and therefore reparations are not owed.

    The default position for whether anyone owes any money is that they don't. For example, I don't owe my brother any money until a situation arises where it is shown that I do owe him money.

    So until you show that I owe you money, I don't owe gays money and therefore do not owe reparations. Since you haven't done that yet, it stands that gays aren't owed reparations.
    I don't ever have to support that you owe gays money rather all I have to do is show society does. The rest of your logic chain does the rest.

    ---------- Post added at 09:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:43 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Vaguely referring to a past argument of yours that was likely vague as well is not a rebuttal.

    I you are saying that there is CURRENTLY a societal-wide discrimination that effects EVERY gay person to such an extent that THEY ALL deserve compensation for it, please make an explicit case that this is so.
    Ignoring it doesn't make it go away.

    ---------- Post added at 09:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:44 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    What about her? You brought it up so you make the point.

    I guess if you think that that INDIVIDUAL deserves some compensation, I don't know if that
    Maybe you missed it but like I said she has no avenue for redress - no one to sue.

    ---------- Post added at 09:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:45 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    But then what about a happy, successful gay man who was never significantly bullied, lead a happy life, found success in an environment that was generally supportive of him and in no way feels that society has screwed him over (although he encountered occasional bigots but beyond a few bummer moments didn't really get in his way) and feels that society in general owes him nothing. I actually know a guy like that although I haven't queried him about his exact views but he is happily married and successful and well-liked - he's even a local celebrity of sorts. Should he get compensation? What if he vehemently disagrees that he deserves compensation.
    I'd say he was the exception unless you can show otherwise because we are talking about the group. Being "closeted" is a thing, still, as is marrying a beard and was certainly more prevalent in the past.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

 

 
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