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Thread: Gay Reparations

  1. #101
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I don't ever have to support that you owe gays money rather all I have to do is show society does. The rest of your logic chain does the rest.
    The logic chain supports that if society owes money, then I owe money.

    Conversely, if I don't owe gays money, then neither does society.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Ignoring it doesn't make it go away.
    I'm not ignoring it. I don't see it because you never showed it to me.

    If you have shown it in the past, please repost it. If you decline to do that, then it's not supported that you ever provided it.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Maybe you missed it but like I said she has no avenue for redress - no one to sue.
    I did address this with that in mind. So feel free to respond to my response or drop this.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I'd say he was the exception unless you can show otherwise because we are talking about the group.
    Actually, you are shifting the burden. It's YOUR argument that gays who are LIVING TODAY ALL deserve reparations and therefore it's your burden to show that current state of the gay community is in such a state that they all deserve compensation from society and that a vast majority AREN'T living like my friend. In fact, most of the gay people I know seem to be doing all right. They all post about their jobs and relationship on my Facebook feed. Of course I don't know everything about their lives so maybe they are having real problems with homophobia but I certainly don't see it and I'm not going to take your word that these people are really severely oppressed to the point where they deserve societal compensation.

    I don't know everything about everything but it looks to me that it's a minority of gays who are suffering severe injustices at the hand of homophobes in our society. And likewise in that case, the remedy is between those particular gays and those who harmed them. It has nothing to do with me or society in general.

    If I'm wrong and indeed the gay friends of mine are the exceptions, please support this. Otherwise, I will assume that things are generally not so bad for gays that they deserve compensation as a group.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Being "closeted" is a thing, still, as is marrying a beard and was certainly more prevalent in the past.
    But it's a choice nowadays. If one chooses to stay in the closet, that's his choice. There is no societal rule punishing gays for choosing to come out. If he's afraid to come out because of bigots in his midst, that's between him and those particular bigots. But it has nothing to do with anyone else.

  2. #102
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    The logic chain supports that if society owes money, then I owe money.

    Conversely, if I don't owe gays money, then neither does society.
    I don't have to support both statements.
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  3. #103
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I don't have to support both statements.
    I’ve supported the statements with my logic chain so they stand until rebutted.

  4. #104
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I’ve supported the statements with my logic chain so they stand until rebutted.
    Here is your logic chain:

    1. FACT - I am part of society
    2. THEREFORE - Whatever sins the society as whole is to be held accountable for, I am likewise to be held accountable for.
    3. THEREFORE if society has committed an injustice against gays that warrant reparations, I likewise owe gays reparation.
    4. FACT - you are a member of the gay community
    5. THEREFORE - if society owes the gay community money, then society owes you money.
    6. THEREFORE - if society owes the gay community money, then I owe you money.

    All I have to support is that society owes reparations. The rest follows and your converse is negated.

    ---------- Post added at 11:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:42 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I'm not ignoring it. I don't see it because you never showed it to me.

    If you have shown it in the past, please repost it. If you decline to do that, then it's not supported that you ever provided it.
    Yes, you're pooh-poohing it when I've posted the easiest of links to problems still encountered by the gay community - including coming out of the closet.

    ---------- Post added at 11:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:45 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I did address this with that in mind. So feel free to respond to my response or drop this.
    Where's the response?

    ---------- Post added at 11:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:48 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    It's YOUR argument that gays who are LIVING TODAY ALL deserve reparations and therefore it's your burden to show that current state of the gay community is in such a state that they all deserve compensation from society and that a vast majority AREN'T living like my friend.
    Already did:

    71.4% of LGBT people experience Major Depressive Disorder (MDD).[19]

    ---------- Post added at 11:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:50 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But it's a choice nowadays. If one chooses to stay in the closet, that's his choice. There is no societal rule punishing gays for choosing to come out. If he's afraid to come out because of bigots in his midst, that's between him and those particular bigots. But it has nothing to do with anyone else.
    Fallacy of the single cause. You're assuming that because there is no "rule" you can dismiss other pressures such as open bigotry. (As I've also shown there are rules existing and pushes for more rules).

    You're also blaming the victim...shifting the burden to them.
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  5. #105
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Here is your logic chain:

    1. FACT - I am part of society
    2. THEREFORE - Whatever sins the society as whole is to be held accountable for, I am likewise to be held accountable for.
    3. THEREFORE if society has committed an injustice against gays that warrant reparations, I likewise owe gays reparation.
    4. FACT - you are a member of the gay community
    5. THEREFORE - if society owes the gay community money, then society owes you money.
    6. THEREFORE - if society owes the gay community money, then I owe you money.

    All I have to support is that society owes reparations. The rest follows and your converse is negated.
    If you support that I owe you money (which is necessarily true if society owes gays money), then you have defeated the logic chain.

    So why do I owe you money?


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Yes, you're pooh-poohing it when I've posted the easiest of links to problems still encountered by the gay community - including coming out of the closet.
    Again, vaguely referring to past arguments of yours is not support.

    So again, if you are saying that there is CURRENTLY a societal-wide discrimination that effects EVERY gay person to such an extent that THEY ALL deserve compensation for it, please make an explicit case that this is so.

    OBVIOUSLY, not all gay people have to struggle with coming out of the closet so that is not an example of something that effects every gay person to such an extent, etc.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Where's the response?
    It followed your statement.


    That does not come close to making your case that ALL gays deserve reparation. For one, the 71% is experiencing it at some point in their lifetimes Yearly the rate is 10.3 percent compared to 7.2 percent for straight men.

    http://www.mattsweet.com/lgbt-anxiet...sion-guide.pdf

    Nor are the cases of depression necessarily caused by overt bigotry on the part of straight society. Again, the problem can be caused by specific individuals like one's own family or just feeling out-of-place because one recognizes that they are distinctly different than most people even if no one is causing that person problem.

    So this does not show that straight society is causing gays such problems that they deserve compensation for it.

  6. #106
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    If you support that I owe you money (which is necessarily true if society owes gays money), then you have defeated the logic chain.

    So why do I owe you money?
    From your chain...because society owes me money and the rest of your chain.

    ---------- Post added at 12:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:18 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    That does not come close to making your case that ALL gays deserve reparation. For one, the 71% is experiencing it at some point in their lifetimes Yearly the rate is 10.3 percent compared to 7.2 percent for straight men.
    Still higher.

    ---------- Post added at 12:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:18 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Again, the problem can be caused by specific individuals like one's own family or just feeling out-of-place because one recognizes that they are distinctly different than most people even if no one is causing that person problem.
    That's society.
    Last edited by CowboyX; August 8th, 2019 at 09:46 PM.
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  7. #107
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    From your chain...because society owes me money and the rest of your chain.
    If society owes you money then I owe you money.

    Except you've never made the case that I owe you money.

    Every example you've provided does not lead to the conclusion that I owe you money.

    For example, you forwarded the teacher who had to live in the closet his whole life. Do I owe you money because of that? Nope. The student who was bullied and the school board didn't respond correctly. Do I owe you money because of that? Nope.

    You need to provide an example which leads to the conclusion that I owe you money. And you haven't.

    If there were a societal crime against all gays that warranted owing them all money, then I would owe you money. But there isn't so I don't.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Still higher.
    But not significantly higher.

    I mean the discrepancy could be explained away by the fact that gays are in the minority and therefore are more likely to feel out of place despite how well straight society treats them. So this difference does not show that there is some huge crime against gays by society.




    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    That's society.
    That's specific people and those specific people can be held accountable. I see no reason why I should pay you because of any of that and therefore it's not a valid reason for reparations.

    Again, if all of society owes all gays money, then I owe you money. If the problem is more individual to individual, then I don't owe you money. And apparently it's the latter. So I don't owe you money and therefore all straights do not owe all gays money.

  8. #108
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    That does not come close to making your case that ALL gays deserve reparation. For one, the 71% is experiencing it at some point in their lifetimes
    Cherry picking. Compared to 38% for heterosexual men.

    ---------- Post added at 12:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:08 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    If society owes you money then I owe you money.

    Except you've never made the case that I owe you money.

    Every example you've provided does not lead to the conclusion that I owe you money.

    For example, you forwarded the teacher who had to live in the closet his whole life. Do I owe you money because of that? Nope. The student who was bullied and the school board didn't respond correctly. Do I owe you money because of that? Nope.

    You need to provide an example which leads to the conclusion that I owe you money. And you haven't.

    If there were a societal crime against all gays that warranted owing them all money, then I would owe you money. But there isn't so I don't.
    Who said crime? I said injustice. And just from the piece I referenced that includes violence, family rejection, pressure to conform, microaggressions, etc.

    I, also, don't have to have suffered any of these injustices. From your own logic:

    5. THEREFORE - if society owes the gay community money, then society owes you money.
    6. THEREFORE - if society owes the gay community money, then I owe you money.

    You owe me money because society owes me money.
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  9. #109
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Cherry picking. Compared to 38% for heterosexual men.
    So in other words, it is natural for people to suffer from these disorders on occasion. 38% for those who aren't gay means that it's pretty common whether one is gay or not. But of course we can't ignore that the number is higher for gays.

    But what's not supported is that this higher number is because of a societal injustice from the entirety of society to the entire gay community. There are all kinds of explanations for why this stat is higher for gays that don't have anything to do with a societal injustice.

    For example, just being a sexual minority is probably stressful no matter how well society treats you. And then there's the fact that some people are bigots and you will encounter them so it's an issue of INDIVIDUALS making their lives harder, not society at large.

    So this state does not indicate a societal injustice in and of itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Who said crime? I said injustice. And just from the piece I referenced that includes violence, family rejection, pressure to conform, microaggressions, etc.
    I am using "crime" and "injustice" interchangeably. And you have not pointed out a societal injustice against all gays that warrant giving all gays money. You have forwarded a hodge podge of injustices against certain members of the gay community, not an injustice against them all.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I, also, don't have to have suffered any of these injustices. From your own logic:

    5. THEREFORE - if society owes the gay community money, then society owes you money.
    6. THEREFORE - if society owes the gay community money, then I owe you money.

    You owe me money because society owes me money.
    You have not supported that society owes you money. And I assumed it was common sense to hold that unless it if I don't owe you money, then society doesn't owe you money but I guess I need to add it to my logic chain. So here is the logic chain with that added.

    1. FACT - I am part of society
    2. THEREFORE - Whatever sins the society as whole is to be held accountable for, I am likewise to be held accountable for.
    3. THEREFORE if society has committed an injustice against gays that warrant reparations, I likewise owe gays reparation.
    4. FACT - you are a member of the gay community
    5. THEREFORE - if society owes the gay community money, then society owes you money.
    6. THEREFORE - if society owes the gay community money, then I owe you money.
    7. THEREFORE - Conversely, if I don't owe you money because I am straight and you are gay, then society does not owe gays money.
    8. FACT - the default state of whether a person owes another person money is that they do not (no money is owed until someone can show it's owed)
    9. FACT - You have not supported that I owe you money
    10. THEREFORE - I don't owe you money
    11. THEREFORE - per point 7, society does not owe gays money.

    Perhaps to make things a bit clearer. I do agree that if you make a supported argument for reparations, then it will be concluded that I owe you money. But then if your argument does not support that I owe you money, then it likewise does not support reparations.

    So when you talk about a teacher being fired because he's gay, if THAT's a reason for reparations, then I owe you money. But of course I don't owe you money because a gay teacher got fired and therefore that's not a reason for reparations. It is an injustice that needs to be addressed but the solution is not society-wide reparations for gays (if it were, then this would be a reason for why I owe you money) but instead it's between that teacher and those who fired him.
    Last edited by mican333; August 9th, 2019 at 05:42 PM.

  10. #110
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    So in other words, it is natural for people to suffer from these disorders on occasion. 38% for those who aren't gay means that it's pretty common whether one is gay or not. But of course we can't ignore that the number is higher for gays.

    But what's not supported is that this higher number is because of a societal injustice from the entirety of society to the entire gay community. There are all kinds of explanations for why this stat is higher for gays that don't have anything to do with a societal injustice.

    For example, just being a sexual minority is probably stressful no matter how well society treats you. And then there's the fact that some people are bigots and you will encounter them so it's an issue of INDIVIDUALS making their lives harder, not society at large.

    So this state does not indicate a societal injustice in and of itself.



    I am using "crime" and "injustice" interchangeably. And you have not pointed out a societal injustice against all gays that warrant giving all gays money. You have forwarded a hodge podge of injustices against certain members of the gay community, not an injustice against them all.





    You have not supported that society owes you money. And I assumed it was common sense to hold that unless it if I don't owe you money, then society doesn't owe you money but I guess I need to add it to my logic chain. So here is the logic chain with that added.

    1. FACT - I am part of society
    2. THEREFORE - Whatever sins the society as whole is to be held accountable for, I am likewise to be held accountable for.
    3. THEREFORE if society has committed an injustice against gays that warrant reparations, I likewise owe gays reparation.
    4. FACT - you are a member of the gay community
    5. THEREFORE - if society owes the gay community money, then society owes you money.
    6. THEREFORE - if society owes the gay community money, then I owe you money.
    7. THEREFORE - Conversely, if I don't owe you money because I am straight and you are gay, then society does not owe gays money.
    8. FACT - the default state of whether a person owes another person money is that they do not (no money is owed until someone can show it's owed)
    9. FACT - You have not supported that I owe you money
    10. THEREFORE - I don't owe you money
    11. THEREFORE - per point 7, society does not owe gays money.

    Perhaps to make things a bit clearer. I do agree that if you make a supported argument for reparations, then it will be concluded that I owe you money. But then if your argument does not support that I owe you money, then it likewise does not support reparations.

    So when you talk about a teacher being fired because he's gay, if THAT's a reason for reparations, then I owe you money. But of course I don't owe you money because a gay teacher got fired and therefore that's not a reason for reparations. It is an injustice that needs to be addressed but the solution is not society-wide reparations for gays (if it were, then this would be a reason for why I owe you money) but instead it's between that teacher and those who fired him.
    Support that the converse is required in your logic chain {challenge thingy}

    ---------- Post added at 09:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:34 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I am using "crime" and "injustice" interchangeably. And you have not pointed out a societal injustice against all gays that warrant giving all gays money. You have forwarded a hodge podge of injustices against certain members of the gay community, not an injustice against them all.
    Now you've combined the fallacy of the single cause with overwhelming exception.

    Many feel that the struggle for gay rights has largely been accomplished and the tide of history has swung in favor of LGBT equality. Violence against Queer People, on the contrary, argues that the lives of many LGBT people—particularly the most vulnerable—have improved very little, if at all, over the past thirty years.
    Hate crimes against only second to race.

    That supports that gay persecution is not "over". Further, anti-gay rules, laws, and policies still exist (and are trying to be expanded - as previously supported) and here:

    Since the Supreme Court’s invalidation of anti-gay marriage laws, scholars and advocates have been debating the LGBT movement’s near-term strategies and priorities. This Article joins that conversation by developing the framework for a national campaign to repeal or invalidate anti-gay curriculum laws—statutes that prohibit or restrict the discussion of homosexuality in public schools. Anti-gay curriculum laws expose LGBT students to stigmatization and bullying and they are far more prevalent than scholars and advocates have recognized. In the existing literature, these provisions are called “no promo homo” laws and are said to exist in only a handful of states. Based on a comprehensive survey of federal and state law, this Article shows that anti-gay provisions exist in the curriculum laws of twenty states and in a federal law that governs the annual distribution of $75 million for abstinence-education programs. Grounded in moral disapproval and anti-gay animus, these laws plainly violate the Constitution’s equal protection guarantees under the Supreme Court’s landmark rulings in Romer v. Evans, Lawrence v. Texas, Windsor v. United States, and Obergefell v. Hodges. Yet federal and state officials will retain the legal authority to enforce these laws unless and until courts enjoin them from doing so. Challenging anti-gay curriculum laws is a necessary and important step toward establishing the legal equality of LGBT people and creating a safe environment for LGBT students in the nation’s public schools.
    Society is responsible for this and the agreed upon logic chain (sans converse) is supported.
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  11. #111
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Support that the converse is required in your logic chain {challenge thingy}
    If all of society owes you money, then I owe you money.

    Therefore if all of society does not owe you money, then I don't owe you money (for the reason society does not owe you money - I might owe you money for entirely different reasons like I borrowed money from you)

    Therefore if I don't owe you money, then it cannot be said that all of society owes you money. Obviously, "all of society" includes me so I don't owe, then it cannot be said all of society owes.

    ---------- Post added at 10:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:02 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Hate crimes against only second to race.

    That supports that gay persecution is not "over". Further, anti-gay rules, laws, and policies still exist (and are trying to be expanded - as previously supported) and here:


    Society is responsible for this and the agreed upon logic chain (sans converse) is supported.
    I disagree that society as a whole is responsible. The people who are responsible for gay bashing are those INDIVIDUALS who did the bashing, not the whole of society. And I while I am certainly against the remaining discriminatory laws against gays, they do not qualify as persecution - or at least the kind of persecution that warrants reparations.

    You are pointing out problems but you are not supporting that the particular solution you are forwarding is the right one.

    When it comes to bashers, we can hold the bashers responsible instead of the whole of society and that's the solution I favor and you have not shown why your solution is better than my solution.

    And quite simply, there is a test, via my logic chain, to tell whether the injustices should be met with reparations and that is to see if it leads to the conclusion that I owe you money.

    So do I owe you money because of any of the things you mentioned? If so, please support that I do. If not, then the solution is not reparations.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    If all of society owes you money, then I owe you money.
    So it cannot follow that you don't owe me money if society owes you money.

    ---------- Post added August 10th, 2019 at 12:17 AM ---------- Previous post was August 9th, 2019 at 11:48 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I disagree that society as a whole is responsible. The people who are responsible for gay bashing are those INDIVIDUALS who did the bashing, not the whole of society. And I while I am certainly against the remaining discriminatory laws against gays, they do not qualify as persecution - or at least the kind of persecution that warrants reparations.
    I've supported this in the modern era so now we can look at the origin of homophobia - which can be argued is not the natural state of mankind (we'll do that elsewhere). So unless you're going to argue that "this is just how it always was" there must be an origin in society of this prejudice towards gays. (aside, you tried to do this by suggesting that differences "just by being a sexual minority" in post 109)

    This is an appeal to nature and also an appeal to tradition (its continuation).

    The Lavender Scare helped fan the flames of the Red Scare. In popular discourse, communists and homosexuals were often conflated. Both groups were perceived as hidden subcultures with their own meeting places, literature, cultural codes, and bonds of loyalty. Both groups were thought to recruit to their ranks the psychologically weak or disturbed. And both groups were considered immoral and godless. Many people believed that the two groups were working together to undermine the government.
    Therefore these attitudes have their origins in society, not nature, and society is therefore responsible. (and that's just government not the rest of society's institutions which had similar inclinations to persecution - churches, for example...religion)

    You are therefore responsible. (per your logic chain)

    If you are responsible you cannot be simultaneously not responsible. (The converse does not have to necessarily follow)

    So, if you're going to claim it does follow (that you are not responsible), could you give an example of something in society you are not responsible for? I've already given two where you are.
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    So it cannot follow that you don't owe me money if society owes you money.
    Nowhere in mu logic chain does it say that society owes ME money. But I have supported the converse part, so my logic chain stands and therefore society doesn't owe you money if I don't owe you money. And you have not supported that I don't owe you money.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I've supported this in the modern era so now we can look at the origin of homophobia - which can be argued is not the natural state of mankind (we'll do that elsewhere). So unless you're going to argue that "this is just how it always was" there must be an origin in society of this prejudice towards gays. (aside, you tried to do this by suggesting that differences "just by being a sexual minority" in post 109)

    This is an appeal to nature and also an appeal to tradition (its continuation).
    Shifting the burden. I have no burden to support that homophobia is a "natural state" until you support that it is not. So at this point, the argument that homophobia is not naturally occurring is not supported and rejected for that reason.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Therefore these attitudes have their origins in society, not nature, and society is therefore responsible. (and that's just government not the rest of society's institutions which had similar inclinations to persecution - churches, for example...religion)
    That article in no way supports that homophobia was created during the Lavender Scare. To me, it looks like they were trying to smear communism by linking it to the already unpopular subculture of homosexuals.

    And homophobia existed in Western Culture way before the Lavender scare and way before US Society was created.

    In medieval Europe, homosexuality was considered sodomy and it was punishable by death. Persecutions reached their height during the Medieval Inquisitions, when the sects of Cathars and Waldensians were accused of fornication and sodomy, alongside accusations of Satanism. In 1307, accusations of sodomy and homosexuality were major charges leveled during the Trial of the Knights Templar.[40] The theologian Thomas Aquinas was influential in linking condemnations of homosexuality with the idea of natural law, arguing that "special sins are against nature, as, for instance, those that run counter to the intercourse of male and female natural to animals, and so are peculiarly qualified as unnatural vices."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophobia

    So whatever the origins of homophobia are, they were certainly not created by US society.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    You are therefore responsible. (per your logic chain)

    If you are responsible you cannot be simultaneously not responsible. (The converse does not have to necessarily follow)

    So, if you're going to claim it does follow (that you are not responsible), could you give an example of something in society you are not responsible for? I've already given two where you are.
    I'm not responsible for any prior societal activities that I did not personally participate in. I was not born into this society by choice and therefore am not responsible for any of its dysfunctions (including homophobia). And I should should assume no responsibility for for the actual of others. If I bash a gay, then you can hold me responsible for homophobic actions against gays and it's fair for me to compensate the victim for my actions. But since I haven't bashed any gays or committed, or participated in, any activities against gays that warrant payment, I am not to be held financially liable. And per my logic chain, neither is the rest of society.

    The bay bashers should pay. The rest of us should not.

    And if you are going to try to use the logic chain against me, please post the logic chain itself and point to the part that says that I am responsible. Vaguely referring to it will not suffice and therefore you have not shown that the logic chain shows that I am responsible.
    Last edited by mican333; August 10th, 2019 at 08:25 AM.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Nowhere in mu logic chain does it say that society owes ME money. But I have supported the converse part, so my logic chain stands and therefore society doesn't owe you money if I don't owe you money. And you have not supported that I don't owe you money.
    Oops, sorry, me money. Its supposed to be: So it cannot follow that you don't owe me money if society owes me money.

    ---------- Post added at 12:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:49 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Shifting the burden. I have no burden to support that homophobia is a "natural state" until you support that it is not. So at this point, the argument that homophobia is not naturally occurring is not supported and rejected for that reason.
    Homosexuality is a natural state:

    Most historians agree that there is evidence of homosexual activity and same-sex love, whether such relationships were accepted or persecuted, in every documented culture.
    Whereas homophobia is a social construct:

    We know that homosexuality existed in ancient Israel simply because it is prohibited in the Bible, whereas it flourished between both men and women in Ancient Greece. Substantial evidence also exists for individuals who lived at least part of their lives as a different gender than assigned at birth. From the lyrics of same-sex desire inscribed by Sappho in the seventh century BCE to youths raised as the opposite sex in cultures ranging from Albania to Afghanistan; from the “female husbands” of Kenya to the Native American “Two-Spirit,” alternatives to the Western male-female and heterosexual binaries thrived across millennia and culture.
    same source

    So we have homosexuality existing in every culture (as natural) yet homophobia not existing in every culture (societal).

    ---------- Post added at 12:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:12 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    So whatever the origins of homophobia are, they were certainly not created by US society.
    Indeed, and they weren't created 15 minutes ago. But irrelevant, the persecution is originated and driven by society.

    Society is responsible. Therefore you are responsible.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Oops, sorry, me money. Its supposed to be: So it cannot follow that you don't owe me money if society owes me money.
    Correct. But unless you can make the case that I owe you money, then you cannot make the case that society owes all gays money.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Homosexuality is a natural state:

    Whereas homophobia is a social construct
    Just because homophobia does not exist in all people all of the time does not mean that it's a social construct. Some people have cancer and some don't. That doesn't mean cancer is not naturally occurring and therefore is a social construct.

    So the argument that homophobia is a social construct is not supported.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    So we have homosexuality existing in every culture (as natural) yet homophobia not existing in every culture (societal).
    That does not support that homophobia did not exist in that culture.

    Just because a society did not persecute gays does not mean that there weren't people within the society who didn't like gays.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Indeed, and they weren't created 15 minutes ago. But irrelevant, the persecution is originated and driven by society.
    Not supported.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Society is responsible. Therefore you are responsible.
    Again, I wasn't around when society allegedly created homophobia (which you haven't even supported actually happened). Since I am only responsible for the things that I did or participated in, I reject that I am at all responsible for societal creation of homophobia (if it happened which again, has not been supported) and therefore am not responsible for.

  16. #116
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    I'm not responsible for any prior societal activities that I did not personally participate in. I was not born into this society by choice and therefore am not responsible for any of its dysfunctions (including homophobia). And I should should assume no responsibility for for the actual of others. If I bash a gay, then you can hold me responsible for homophobic actions against gays and it's fair for me to compensate the victim for my actions. But since I haven't bashed any gays or committed, or participated in, any activities against gays that warrant payment, I am not to be held financially liable. And per my logic chain, neither is the rest of society.

    The bay bashers should pay. The rest of us should not.
    You are responsible for the enforcement of justice whatever that may be. Here's an interesting incident. Where do you think your responsibilities lie?

    ---------- Post added at 01:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:40 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    If all of society owes you money, then I owe you money.

    Therefore if all of society does not owe you money, then I don't owe you money (for the reason society does not owe you money - I might owe you money for entirely different reasons like I borrowed money from you)

    Therefore if I don't owe you money, then it cannot be said that all of society owes you money. Obviously, "all of society" includes me so I don't owe, then it cannot be said all of society owes.
    Here is the relevant part from your chain:

    7. THEREFORE - Conversely, if I don't owe you money because I am straight and you are gay, then society does not owe gays money.

    Which is untrue and does not follow from your chain.

    1. FACT - I am part of society
    2. THEREFORE - Whatever sins the society as whole is to be held accountable for, I am likewise to be held accountable for.
    3. THEREFORE if society has committed an injustice against gays that warrant reparations, I likewise owe gays reparation.
    4. FACT - you are a member of the gay community
    5. THEREFORE - if society owes the gay community money, then society owes you money.
    6. THEREFORE - if society owes the gay community money, then I owe you money.

    ---------- Post added at 01:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:02 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Just because homophobia does not exist in all people all of the time does not mean that it's a social construct. Some people have cancer and some don't. That doesn't mean cancer is not naturally occurring and therefore is a social construct.

    So the argument that homophobia is a social construct is not supported.
    Category error. Cancer is a biological construct, homophobia is a social and cultural construct, as supported.

    ---------- Post added at 01:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:09 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Not supported.
    I've certainly supported that homophobic persecution didn't begin 15 minutes ago.

    ---------- Post added at 01:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:10 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Again, I wasn't around when society allegedly created homophobia (which you haven't even supported actually happened).
    Yes, I did.

    ---------- Post added at 01:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:12 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Since I am only responsible for the things that I did or participated in, I reject that I am at all responsible for societal creation of homophobia (if it happened which again, has not been supported) and therefore am not responsible for.
    And, again, you are responsible for the enforcement of justice whatever that may be.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    You are responsible for the enforcement of justice whatever that may be. Here's an interesting incident. Where do you think your responsibilities lie?
    I am responsible for my actions. And since I do not work in the justice field I am in to responsible for the enforcement of justice.

    If you are saying that I am, then please support that.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Here is the relevant part from your chain:

    7. THEREFORE - Conversely, if I don't owe you money because I am straight and you are gay, then society does not owe gays money.

    Which is untrue and does not follow from your chain.

    1. FACT - I am part of society
    2. THEREFORE - Whatever sins the society as whole is to be held accountable for, I am likewise to be held accountable for.
    3. THEREFORE if society has committed an injustice against gays that warrant reparations, I likewise owe gays reparation.
    4. FACT - you are a member of the gay community
    5. THEREFORE - if society owes the gay community money, then society owes you money.
    6. THEREFORE - if society owes the gay community money, then I owe you money.
    I did support that it follows. Here it is again:

    If all of society owes you money, then I owe you money.

    Therefore if all of society does not owe you money, then I don't owe you money (for the reason society does not owe you money - I might owe you money for entirely different reasons like I borrowed money from you)

    Therefore if I don't owe you money, then it cannot be said that all of society owes you money. Obviously, "all of society" includes me so I don't owe, then it cannot be said all of society owes.


    Until you rebut that, it stands that 7 follows 6.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Category error. Cancer is a biological construct, homophobia is a social and cultural construct, as supported.
    Begging the question. You have have not supported that homophobia is a social construct.

    And your argument seemed to be that because not everyone is homophobic, it's not a not a natural construct. And I rebutted that by showing that there are natural constructs that not everyone has. Cancer is such a construct.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I've certainly supported that homophobic persecution didn't begin 15 minutes ago.
    And I have supported that it did not begin within this society. It existed long before this society was even a concept.

    So your statement that it originated within this society has been shown to be incorrect.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Yes, I did.
    No, you didn't.

    And if you are going to claim that you did, please support that assertion.

    If you are going to claim that our society created homophobia, please indicate exactly when that was and who were the people responsible. You don't have to give exact names and such but regardless if your statement is at all correct, you should be able to point to something.

    We know it wasn't the Lavender Scare because homophobia existed before then (I've supported that it existed in Medieval times).

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    And, again, you are responsible for the enforcement of justice whatever that may be.
    Until you support that, I reject that claim as unsupported.

    BTW, if I am responsible, then so are you. So why are you responsible for what society has done to gays?

  18. #118
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I am responsible for my actions. And since I do not work in the justice field I am in to responsible for the enforcement of justice.

    If you are saying that I am, then please support that.
    You pay taxes, taxes support the justice system, you support the justice system.

    ---------- Post added at 01:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:35 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    If all of society owes you money, then I owe you money.

    Therefore if all of society does not owe you money, then I don't owe you money (for the reason society does not owe you money - I might owe you money for entirely different reasons like I borrowed money from you)

    Therefore if I don't owe you money, then it cannot be said that all of society owes you money. Obviously, "all of society" includes me so I don't owe, then it cannot be said all of society owes.


    Until you rebut that, it stands that 7 follows 6.
    You keep interchanging statement 7 in your chain. Produce the one you wish me to rebutt.

    ---------- Post added at 01:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:41 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    Begging the question. You have have not supported that homophobia is a social construct.

    And your argument seemed to be that because not everyone is homophobic, it's not a not a natural construct. And I rebutted that by showing that there are natural constructs that not everyone has. Cancer is such a construct.
    Cancer is not a social construct, it is a biological construct. That is a category error.

    You tried earlier to claim that homophobia was part of a natural disposition towards minorities. I supported that it wasn't, that in some societies not only was it non existent but the minorities were celebrated.

    ---------- Post added at 01:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:49 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    No, you didn't.

    And if you are going to claim that you did, please support that assertion.

    If you are going to claim that our society created homophobia, please indicate exactly when that was and who were the people responsible. You don't have to give exact names and such but regardless if your statement is at all correct, you should be able to point to something.

    We know it wasn't the Lavender Scare because homophobia existed before then (I've supported that it existed in Medieval times).
    Are you suggesting the Lavender Scare is a naturally occurring phenomena? Similarly with gay bashing? That those individuals have to punch a gay in the face?

    ---------- Post added at 01:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:51 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Until you support that, I reject that claim as unsupported.

    BTW, if I am responsible, then so are you. So why are you responsible for what society has done to gays?
    Never said I wasn't.

    So, the soldiers who raped and killed that Vietnamese girl go free is what you are saying?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    You pay taxes, taxes support the justice system, you support the justice system.
    If you mean that, in my own small part, FINANCIALLY support the justice system by paying taxes, that's right.

    But that hardly makes me morally responsible, especially since I don't have a choice whether my tax dollars are spent on our current justice system. I mean if someone stole money from you, bought a gun and killed someone with that gun, should you be sued for financially assisting in the purchase of the gun? Of course not.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    You keep interchanging statement 7 in your chain. Produce the one you wish me to rebutt.
    You said that seven does not follow 6. I provided an argument that shows that it does. So either rebut my argument or let it stand and concede that 7 does follow 6 and therefore the whole logic chain holds up.

    If all of society owes you money, then I owe you money.

    Therefore if all of society does not owe you money, then I don't owe you money (for the reason society does not owe you money - I might owe you money for entirely different reasons like I borrowed money from you)

    Therefore if I don't owe you money, then it cannot be said that all of society owes you money. Obviously, "all of society" includes me so I don't owe, then it cannot be said all of society owes.

    Until you rebut that, it stands that 7 follows 6.




    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Cancer is not a social construct, it is a biological construct. That is a category error.

    You tried earlier to claim that homophobia was part of a natural disposition towards minorities. I supported that it wasn't, that in some societies not only was it non existent but the minorities were celebrated.
    You have not supported that homophobia is nonexistent in any society. Just because a society is generally gay-friendly in laws and general mores does not mean that there weren't some members of the population who weren't homophobic. Do you KNOW that within those societies there weren't a minority of gay-haters?

    And even if a society reaches a point where no one is homophobic, it does not mean that they weren't homophobic in the past and therefore is a non-phobic society. Do you know that those societies were not somewhat homophobic in the past? If they were phobic, then it cannot be said that homophobia is not naturally occurring - it could be naturally occurring but it's also a natural part of human nature to eventually get past it and therefore there are no examples of a society where homophobia NEVER existed.

    And my point with the cancer analogy is that just because something is not ubiquitous does not mean that it's not naturally occurring. So it wasn't a categorical error. You just didn't understand the point.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Are you suggesting the Lavender Scare is a naturally occurring phenomena? Similarly with gay bashing? That those individuals have to punch a gay in the face?
    No, I have supported that the Lavender Scare is not the artificial origination of homophobia in the US and therefore it does not support that homophobia is a societal construct. The Lavender Scare did not create homophobia.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Never said I wasn't.

    So, the soldiers who raped and killed that Vietnamese girl go free is what you are saying?
    No. Those soldiers should be punished.

    But I should not be punished for what they did because I did not participate in the crime.

    And the argument that I am responsible for their actions because my tax dollars paid for them to be there, my tax dollars paid for them to fight a war, not rape girls. In other words, when the committed rape, they were doing something that my tax dollars were not paying them to do and if anything, I deserve a refund because my tax dollars were used for something that they were not meant for.
    Last edited by mican333; August 10th, 2019 at 01:59 PM.

  20. #120
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    If you mean that, in my own small part, FINANCIALLY support the justice system by paying taxes, that's right.

    But that hardly makes me morally responsible, especially since I don't have a choice whether my tax dollars are spent on our current justice system. I mean if someone stole money from you, bought a gun and killed someone with that gun, should you be sued for financially assisting in the purchase of the gun? Of course not.
    Right to the first part.

    The second part, in an extremely small way you are responsible since if you weren't carrying that money around the homicide would never have happened. Let's say instead of stealing money from you you were careless and left your gun laying around, someone stole it and committed a homicide. You'd be a little more responsible for not securing your weapon.

    Let's now say you left your gun unattended and a child picked it up and killed themselves accidentally, or one of their friends or siblings, yes, you'd be even more responsible now.

    ---------- Post added at 09:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:51 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    You said that seven does not follow 6. I provided an argument that shows that it does. So either rebut my argument or let it stand and concede that 7 does follow 6 and therefore the whole logic chain holds up.

    [I]If all of society owes you money, then I owe you money.

    Therefore if all of society does not owe you money, then I don't owe you money (for the reason society does not owe you money - I might owe you money for entirely different reasons like I borrowed money from you)

    Therefore if I don't owe you money, then it cannot be said that all of society owes you money. Obviously, "all of society" includes me so I don't owe, then it cannot be said all of society owes.

    Until you rebut that, it stands that 7 follows 6.
    Ok, I'm going to tentatively accept that as your logic chain because I think it doesn't make a difference.

    ---------- Post added at 09:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:54 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    No, I have supported that the Lavender Scare is not the artificial origination of homophobia in the US and therefore it does not support that homophobia is a societal construct. The Lavender Scare did not create homophobia.
    Something doesn't have to be the artificial origination of anything to create something. I can create a little league team, doesn't mean that was the origin of little league.

    ---------- Post added at 10:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:57 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    No. Those soldiers should be punished.
    Great. So who determines that? Maybe her brothers can come and beat the soldiers up or take some kind of revenge?

    ---------- Post added at 10:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:02 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    But I should not be punished for what they did because I did not participate in the crime.

    And the argument that I am responsible for their actions because my tax dollars paid for them to be there, my tax dollars paid for them to fight a war, not rape girls. In other words, when the committed rape, they were doing something that my tax dollars were not paying them to do and if anything, I deserve a refund because my tax dollars were used for something that they were not meant for.
    You are not responsible for their individual actions, however, you are responsible for them being there. Therefore you are responsible for seeing justice served.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

 

 
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