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Thread: Gay Reparations

  1. #121
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Right to the first part.

    The second part, in an extremely small way you are responsible since if you weren't carrying that money around the homicide would never have happened. Let's say instead of stealing money from you you were careless and left your gun laying around, someone stole it and committed a homicide. You'd be a little more responsible for not securing your weapon.
    But obviously we are talking about the kind of culpability to where it could be reasonably argued that I owe the victims money. And OBVIOUSLY in that situation there would be absolutely no valid civil case that I be held responsible for that death.

    And the same goes for the justice system. Just because some of my money goes involuntarily into the system in no way means that I am responsible for what it does to an extent where I can be held financially responsible for what happens.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Ok, I'm going to tentatively accept that as your logic chain because I think it doesn't make a difference.
    Well, per the logic chain, if I don't owe you money because of X, then society does not owe gays money because of X.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Something doesn't have to be the artificial origination of anything to create something. I can create a little league team, doesn't mean that was the origin of little league.
    I am using "artificial" as meaning "not natural".

    And quibbling over definitions aside, I have supported that homophobia did not originate with the The Lavender Scare, so societal homophobia did not have a societal creation with the Lavender Scare.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Great. So who determines that? Maybe her brothers can come and beat the soldiers up or take some kind of revenge?
    Since doing that is illegal under military law, they would be punished by the military typically. And at this point, I'm not seeing the relevance of this to our debate.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    You are not responsible for their individual actions, however, you are responsible for them being there. Therefore you are responsible for seeing justice served.
    I didn't agree to send them there. But I am all for them being punished by the military for their crimes (assuming the punishment is appropriate such as a lengthy prison sentence) and that's justice being served with my tax dollars (since the process to see them punished and the prison is all taxpayer funded). So financially, I did my part in seeing justice served.

    And likewise if a gay basher gets arrested, sentenced, and locked up, that justice is also paid for with my tax dollars.

    But I don't see why I should pay you money just because you are gay.

  2. #122
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But obviously we are talking about the kind of culpability to where it could be reasonably argued that I owe the victims money. And OBVIOUSLY in that situation there would be absolutely no valid civil case that I be held responsible for that death.

    And the same goes for the justice system. Just because some of my money goes involuntarily into the system in no way means that I am responsible for what it does to an extent where I can be held financially responsible for what happens.
    You voluntarily participate in all of society and so of course you're held responsible. You pay.

    ---------- Post added at 12:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:15 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Well, per the logic chain, if I don't owe you money because of X, then society does not owe gays money because of X.
    But you're a part of society, and if society owes you owe.

    If you already owe you cannot simultaneously not owe.

    ---------- Post added at 12:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:18 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I am using "artificial" as meaning "not natural".

    And quibbling over definitions aside, I have supported that homophobia did not originate with the The Lavender Scare, so societal homophobia did not have a societal creation with the Lavender Scare.
    The lavender Scare has a societal origin therefore it's contribution to homophobia originated in society.

    ---------- Post added at 12:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:20 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Since doing that is illegal under military law, they would be punished by the military typically. And at this point, I'm not seeing the relevance of this to our debate.
    Do you belief society should do it? Punish those soldiers? That would not be involuntarily supporting a system.

    ---------- Post added at 12:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:22 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I didn't agree to send them there. But I am all for them being punished by the military for their crimes (assuming the punishment is appropriate such as a lengthy prison sentence) and that's justice being served with my tax dollars (since the process to see them punished and the prison is all taxpayer funded). So financially, I did my part in seeing justice served.
    You agree to the system that sent them there. If they are the tip of the spear where are you?

    ---------- Post added at 12:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:25 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And likewise if a gay basher gets arrested, sentenced, and locked up, that justice is also paid for with my tax dollars.
    Yay.

    ---------- Post added at 12:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:26 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But I don't see why I should pay you money just because you are gay.
    I could give you any number of reasons why. But it's irrelevant as I'm just typing on the internet. I could not be gay for all you know. What's important is that society corrects its injustices.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  3. #123
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    You voluntarily participate in all of society and so of course you're held responsible. You pay.
    I do not choose how the tax dollars that I involuntarily pay are spent. So no, just because society, and therefore I, pay for something does not mean that I am morally culpable for it, even if somehow some of my money pays for it.

    Again, just like if someone stole my money and bought a gun. If there were a lawsuit over the killing, there is NO WAY that I would be held legally responsible just because the money was stolen from me.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    But you're a part of society, and if society owes you owe.

    If you already owe you cannot simultaneously not owe.
    Right. And conversely, if I don't owe then society does not owe.

    And until you support that I owe you money because you are gay, you have not supported that society owes you and therefore not supported that gays are owed reparations.


    QUOTE=CowboyX;566895]The lavender Scare has a societal origin therefore it's contribution to homophobia originated in society.[/quote]

    Which in no way supports that homophobia has a societal origin.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Do you belief society should do it? Punish those soldiers? That would not be involuntarily supporting a system.
    Yes it would be. I do have to be asked to do something before it can be said I volunteered.

    If a friend borrows my car without my knowledge and when I learn about it and approve of his activity, I did not volunteer my car just like I did not volunteer societal money to punish those soldiers regardless of whether I agreed with what happened after I learned it happened.

    When asked "Do you volunteer this money to pay for X" and I says "yes", then it can be said I volunteered to support X. I have to be giving a choice in the matter.




    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    You agree to the system that sent them there. If they are the tip of the spear where are you?
    If you are arguing that I am involved to the extent that if soldiers violate US law and commit war crimes, I am responsible to the extent that I need to be held accountable on some level, I disagree and ask that you support that assertion before I will consider it a valid position in this debate.

    Vaguely referring to the "system that sent them there" does not suffice.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I could give you any number of reasons why. But it's irrelevant as I'm just typing on the internet. I could not be gay for all you know. What's important is that society corrects its injustices.
    And there are many, many ways such a thing can be carried out. But you are proposing the specific solution of giving every gay person money and as I SUPPORTED WITH MY LOGIC CHAIN, if there that is a valid reason, then I owe you money (or if you actually aren't gay, then pick any random gay person that I don't personally know to replace you).

    And you have yet to give me ONE reason why. You have forwarded a bunch of things sure, but NONE of them lead to conclusion that I owe you money.

    I don't owe you money because Matthew Shepard got killed. I don't owe you money because of the Lavender Scare. I don't owe you money because a teacher had to live in the closet for decades. And I'm not saying that these are things that should not be addressed or even not be addressed on a societal level. Perhaps a national day of contemplation for Matthew Shepard is a good idea so we should nationally contemplate the history of hate crimes against gays.

    But the solution the involves ME giving YOU money does not seem to make much sense to me and you have yet to explain why this should happen. And therefore you have not supported that gay reparations is a valid solution for whatever injustices that society has committed against gays.

  4. #124
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I do not choose how the tax dollars that I involuntarily pay are spent. So no, just because society, and therefore I, pay for something does not mean that I am morally culpable for it, even if somehow some of my money pays for it.
    Sure your are. You voluntarily agree to that system. Even if it the amount of responsibility is incredibly small it is still there.

    ---------- Post added at 09:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:51 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Again, just like if someone stole my money and bought a gun. If there were a lawsuit over the killing, there is NO WAY that I would be held legally responsible just because the money was stolen from me.
    Legally, sure. But you are involved to a very small degree.

    ---------- Post added at 09:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:52 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Right. And conversely, if I don't owe then society does not owe.
    But you already owe. 7 follows 6. You can't therefore not owe.

    ---------- Post added at 09:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:54 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    QUOTE=CowboyX;566895]The lavender Scare has a societal origin therefore it's contribution to homophobia originated in society.
    Which in no way supports that homophobia has a societal origin.
    [/QUOTE]

    If it didn't we would see it in all societies, which we don't (as supported), so it has a societal origin.

    ---------- Post added at 10:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:57 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Yes it would be. I do have to be asked to do something before it can be said I volunteered.

    If a friend borrows my car without my knowledge and when I learn about it and approve of his activity, I did not volunteer my car just like I did not volunteer societal money to punish those soldiers regardless of whether I agreed with what happened after I learned it happened.

    When asked "Do you volunteer this money to pay for X" and I says "yes", then it can be said I volunteered to support X. I have to be giving a choice in the matter.
    You have been. You are aware of how society operates if even just vaguely. You continued to volunteer your money anyway. That you might not know what is being done with your money is what you agreed to.

    ---------- Post added at 10:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:02 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    If you are arguing that I am involved to the extent that if soldiers violate US law and commit war crimes, I am responsible to the extent that I need to be held accountable on some level, I disagree and ask that you support that assertion before I will consider it a valid position in this debate.

    Vaguely referring to the "system that sent them there" does not suffice.
    I didn't say to that extent but you are responsible, you are an American, right? You sound like one of those "he's not my president" types. Well, you may not have voted for him, may not like or respect him (whoever he is), but he is your president.

    ---------- Post added at 10:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:06 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But the solution the involves ME giving YOU money does not seem to make much sense to me and you have yet to explain why this should happen. And therefore you have not supported that gay reparations is a valid solution for whatever injustices that society has committed against gays.
    Like I said, I could give you any number of reasons which would be a waste of time. I could've been that teacher that spent his life afraid of being "outed" and losing my job, my home or whatever.

    I, however, am irrelevant to the argument.
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  5. #125
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Sure your are. You voluntarily agree to that system. Even if it the amount of responsibility is incredibly small it is still there.
    How have I volunteered? I don't voluntarily pay taxes.

    But besides that, as you said, if I was responsible, my responsibility is incredibly small, clearly too small for me to be sued for money.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Legally, sure. But you are involved to a very small degree.
    Well, I'm talking legally. Obviously one has to be held legally liable before money can be taken from them. I'm not legally liable and therefore I owe no money.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    But you already owe. 7 follows 6. You can't therefore not owe.
    SUPPORT OR RETRACT that I owe.

    Do not repeat that I owe until you have supported that claim.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    If it didn't we would see it in all societies, which we don't (as supported), so it has a societal origin.
    No, you did not support it. I rebutted your argument in post 119 and you completely ignored my response. You did not reply to any of it. So here is my rebuttal from that post. Until you rebut it, your argument is not supported.

    You have not supported that homophobia is nonexistent in any society. Just because a society is generally gay-friendly in laws and general mores does not mean that there weren't some members of the population who weren't homophobic. Do you KNOW that within those societies there weren't a minority of gay-haters?

    And even if a society reaches a point where no one is homophobic, it does not mean that they weren't homophobic in the past and therefore is a non-phobic society. Do you know that those societies were not somewhat homophobic in the past? If they were phobic, then it cannot be said that homophobia is not naturally occurring - it could be naturally occurring but it's also a natural part of human nature to eventually get past it and therefore there are no examples of a society where homophobia NEVER existed.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    You have been. You are aware of how society operates if even just vaguely. You continued to volunteer your money anyway. That you might not know what is being done with your money is what you agreed to.
    I do NOT volunteer my money. If I don't pay my taxes, I will be punished for it. So I am coerced into paying taxes, not volunteering to pay taxes.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I didn't say to that extent but you are responsible, you are an American, right? You sound like one of those "he's not my president" types. Well, you may not have voted for him, may not like or respect him (whoever he is), but he is your president.
    Whatever responsibility I may have is so minuscule that it is irrelevant in any legal sense. It's just like the money stolen to buy a gun. You can argue in some esoteric fashion, I am responsible in a minuscule way. but if I am to pay gays money, then I clearly have to be much more responsible for the injustice than something miniscule. "Miniscule Responsibility" is effectively the same as "no responsibility" for out purposes.

    This argument does not even come close to making a case that I owe gays in general money. What's your overall point with this argument? It just seems to be a waste of time to respond to it and I likely will cease responding to this issue until I see some kind of actual argument of support made regarding this.
    Last edited by mican333; August 12th, 2019 at 06:14 AM.

  6. #126
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    How have I volunteered? I don't voluntarily pay taxes.

    But besides that, as you said, if I was responsible, my responsibility is incredibly small, clearly too small for me to be sued for money.
    Sure you do. If you didn't want to you'd leave. You might prefer not to but you do.

    To the second part, yes, maybe likely.

    ---------- Post added at 01:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:04 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Well, I'm talking legally. Obviously one has to be held legally liable before money can be taken from them. I'm not legally liable and therefore I owe no money.
    Sure. For what again?

    ---------- Post added at 01:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:06 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    SUPPORT OR RETRACT that I owe.

    Do not repeat that I owe until you have supported that claim.
    By your logic chain...at 6 you owe.

    ---------- Post added at 01:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:07 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    No, you did not support it. I rebutted your argument in post 119 and you completely ignored my response. You did not reply to any of it. So here is my rebuttal from that post. Until you rebut it, your argument is not supported.

    You have not supported that homophobia is nonexistent in any society. Just because a society is generally gay-friendly in laws and general mores does not mean that there weren't some members of the population who weren't homophobic. Do you KNOW that within those societies there weren't a minority of gay-haters?
    The society is non-homophobic. As supported.

    ---------- Post added at 01:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:11 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    You have not supported that homophobia is nonexistent in any society. Just because a society is generally gay-friendly in laws and general mores does not mean that there weren't some members of the population who weren't homophobic. Do you KNOW that within those societies there weren't a minority of gay-haters?

    And even if a society reaches a point where no one is homophobic, it does not mean that they weren't homophobic in the past and therefore is a non-phobic society. Do you know that those societies were not somewhat homophobic in the past? If they were phobic, then it cannot be said that homophobia is not naturally occurring - it could be naturally occurring but it's also a natural part of human nature to eventually get past it and therefore there are no examples of a society where homophobia NEVER existed.
    What if they were non-homophobic, then homophobic, then non-homophobic again? My evidence stands.

    ---------- Post added at 01:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:13 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    there are no examples of a society where homophobia NEVER existed.
    You're gong to have to support that. {challenge thingy}

    ---------- Post added at 01:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:14 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I do NOT volunteer my money. If I don't pay my taxes, I will be punished for it. So I am coerced into paying taxes, not volunteering to pay taxes.
    Again, you can leave. If you don't like paying your country club dues you'd leave and stop paying.

    ---------- Post added at 01:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:15 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Whatever responsibility I may have is so minuscule that it is irrelevant in any legal sense. It's just like the money stolen to buy a gun. You can argue in some esoteric fashion, I am responsible in a minuscule way. but if I am to pay gays money, then I clearly have to be much more responsible for the injustice than something miniscule. "Miniscule Responsibility" is effectively the same as "no responsibility" for out purposes.
    Depends on your definition of miniscule. Is 1 in 327,000,000 miniscule? Why does that make it no responsibility?
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  7. #127
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Sure you do. If you didn't want to you'd leave. You might prefer not to but you do.

    To the second part, yes, maybe likely.
    And the second part is what matters for this debate so this issue is settled. I am not legally responsible for everything that the government does with my tax money.

    I consider this issue settled and therefore will not accept further arguments saying that I am responsible for what my government does unless it can be shown that my participation is actually significant. Insignificant responsibility is a non-issue.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    By your logic chain...at 6 you owe.
    SUPPORT OR RETRACT that my logic chain shows that I owe money.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    The society is non-homophobic. As supported.
    Support or retract that there was no one in those societies that was homophobic.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    What if they were non-homophobic, then homophobic, then non-homophobic again? My evidence stands.
    I agree that if a society emerged that was non-homophobic (as in no one was homophobic), you have supported your position.

    But you have not supported that such a society ever existed.

    And I should note, that is a society was non-homophobic because people weren't aware that gay people exist, that doesn't count. We are clearly talking about a society where people knew gays exist and were fine with them.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    You're gong to have to support that. {challenge thingy}
    I mean no examples of such a society has been presented in this debate. So I will say that it's not been supported that there was a society that was gay-friendly (as in everyone was) upon its creation.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Depends on your definition of miniscule. Is 1 in 327,000,000 miniscule? Why does that make it no responsibility?
    I mean so miniscule that it's legally irrelevant.

    Whatever legal responsibility I have for what is done with my stolen money is so miniscule that it's effectively zero.

    Likewise whatever responsibility I have regarding societal treatment of gays is so miniscule there is no reason to make me pay you any money and therefore, per the logic chain, there is no reason to pay gays reparations.

  8. #128
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I consider this issue settled and therefore will not accept further arguments saying that I am responsible for what my government does unless it can be shown that my participation is actually significant. Insignificant responsibility is a non-issue.
    Ok, since you're making a straw that broke the camel's back argument you can therefore prove that it wasn't your straw that broke said camel's back. Do so please.

    ---------- Post added at 11:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:16 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    SUPPORT OR RETRACT that my logic chain shows that I owe money.
    "6. THEREFORE - if society owes the gay community money, then I owe you money." Your logic chain.

    ---------- Post added at 11:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:18 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Support or retract that there was no one in those societies that was homophobic.
    Now you're claiming and overwhelming exception where there is no evidence of such an exception existing. On the contrary, the evidence shows those society's openly accepted homosexuals.

    ---------- Post added at 11:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:20 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I agree that if a society emerged that was non-homophobic (as in no one was homophobic), you have supported your position.

    But you have not supported that such a society ever existed.

    And I should note, that is a society was non-homophobic because people weren't aware that gay people exist, that doesn't count. We are clearly talking about a society where people knew gays exist and were fine with them.
    I certainly have to the extent that it is possible.

    We're talking about culpability. So in a non-homophobic society the singular homophobe living on the outskirts of the village is still culpable for the society. So now reverse it. We're back to the "he's not my president," yes, he is.

    ---------- Post added at 11:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:28 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I mean no examples of such a society has been presented in this debate. So I will say that it's not been supported that there was a society that was gay-friendly (as in everyone was) upon its creation.
    I'm not sure I understand this. Is the reverse true?

    ---------- Post added at 11:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:32 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I mean so miniscule that it's legally irrelevant.

    Whatever legal responsibility I have for what is done with my stolen money is so miniscule that it's effectively zero.

    Likewise whatever responsibility I have regarding societal treatment of gays is so miniscule there is no reason to make me pay you any money and therefore, per the logic chain, there is no reason to pay gays reparations.
    Maybe irrelevant to you but we're talking about society and the cumulative effect.
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Ok, since you're making a straw that broke the camel's back argument you can therefore prove that it wasn't your straw that broke said camel's back. Do so please.
    I don't know what you by "straw" but my point is that we established that the kind of responsibility you are referring to when talking about the things the government does with my tax dollars whether I like or not is legally insignificant and therefore cannot be used to make the case that I am legally responsible for these things and therefore owe money for it.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    "6. THEREFORE - if society owes the gay community money, then I owe you money." Your logic chain.
    Right. But before I can owe you money, there needs to support support that society owes the gay community money. You haven't done that and therefore I don't owe you.

    And the point of the logic chain is that if you forward something, like a teacher being fired, and it cannot be argued that I owe you money because of that, then it cannot be argued that reparations is an appropriate remedy for this injustice.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Now you're claiming and overwhelming exception where there is no evidence of such an exception existing. On the contrary, the evidence shows those society's openly accepted homosexuals.
    As a general statement. The article did not say that there was no one in the society that was homophobic. I think there likely was at least someone who was. But then it's not my burden of support here. It's yours.

    So again, SUPPORT OR RETRACT that there was no one in those societies that was homophobic.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I certainly have to the extent that it is possible.
    No, you haven't done it at all. The articles you forwarded made no mention of whether the society was homophobic before it became gay-accepting. So you have provided no support that there ever was a society that was gay-friendly upon its inception. Therefore the statement that homophobia was a societal invention is not supported. Just because it's impossible for you to support your argument even though you try does not change the fact that you have not supported your argument.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    We're talking about culpability. So in a non-homophobic society the singular homophobe living on the outskirts of the village is still culpable for the society. So now reverse it. We're back to the "he's not my president," yes, he is.
    Well, whether he is "my" president can be debated in a number of ways, such was what does it mean for him to be "my" President. But regardless, we have established that my legal responsibility for what the government does without my express consent is minuscule and therefore irrelevant.

    You are as much to blame for whatever society does as I am. And likewise your responsibility for what injustice society causes gays is minuscule and therefore irrelevant.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I'm not sure I understand this. Is the reverse true?
    You mean has it been supported that there was never a society that was gay-friendly upon its inception. No, that's not been supported either. But then I'm not making an argument for the origins of homophobia but you are. Since your argument is not supported, it cannot be used a premise for any argument.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I don't know what you by "straw" but my point is that we established that the kind of responsibility you are referring to when talking about the things the government does with my tax dollars whether I like or not is legally insignificant and therefore cannot be used to make the case that I am legally responsible for these things and therefore owe money for it.
    I'd agree that the punishment should fit the crime.

    ---------- Post added at 12:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:07 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Right. But before I can owe you money, there needs to support support that society owes the gay community money. You haven't done that and therefore I don't owe you.
    I've done that through argument and myriad examples.

    ---------- Post added at 12:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:08 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    As a general statement. The article did not say that there was no one in the society that was homophobic. I think there likely was at least someone who was. But then it's not my burden of support here. It's yours.

    So again, SUPPORT OR RETRACT that there was no one in those societies that was homophobic.
    Irrelevant as such support would only be evidence of an overwhelming example. The prevailing attitude of the society is what matters.

    ---------- Post added at 12:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:11 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    No, you haven't done it at all. The articles you forwarded made no mention of whether the society was homophobic before it became gay-accepting. So you have provided no support that there ever was a society that was gay-friendly upon its inception. Therefore the statement that homophobia was a societal invention is not supported. Just because it's impossible for you to support your argument even though you try does not change the fact that you have not supported your argument.
    I'll tentatively accept that as there's also no evidence for the reverse. Therefore, it is a societal construct and not a natural condition.

    ---------- Post added at 12:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:13 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Well, whether he is "my" president can be debated in a number of ways, such was what does it mean for him to be "my" President. But regardless, we have established that my legal responsibility for what the government does without my express consent is minuscule and therefore irrelevant.
    Sure. But not really for what we're talking about. He IS your president.

    ---------- Post added at 12:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:15 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    You are as much to blame for whatever society does as I am. And likewise your responsibility for what injustice society causes gays is minuscule and therefore irrelevant.
    1 Yes
    2 No I'll agree that it is miniscule but not irrelevant. For example, say you and your friend are at odds. You are going to vote for one guy (in a two person race) and he is going to vote for the other. His vote is going to effectively cancel yours out. Would you say your vote is irrelevant?

    ---------- Post added at 12:22 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:20 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    You mean has it been supported that there was never a society that was gay-friendly upon its inception. No, that's not been supported either. But then I'm not making an argument for the origins of homophobia but you are. Since your argument is not supported, it cannot be used a premise for any argument.
    My argument doesn't depend on there being a society that was gay-friendly or not upon it's inception. My support showed that a homophobic society is not a natural condition.

    This was in response to your assertion that the domination or persecution of minorities* was a natural outcome of societies. *I believe you said something like "differences". I've show this to not be true.
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  11. #131
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I'd agree that the punishment should fit the crime.
    And since my "involvement" in the crime is legally minuscule, I deserve no punishment and therefore should not pay for reparations.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I've done that through argument and myriad examples.
    Nonspecific references to prior support is not support. As far as I know, I've rebutted all of your arguments and therefore none of them stand as support. Maybe I'm wrong about that but I'm certainly not going to take your word for it.

    If you have support, please present it in a post.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Irrelevant as such support would only be evidence of an overwhelming example. The prevailing attitude of the society is what matters.
    If homophobia is a societal construct, then there needs to be a society that had NO homophobia and the society created it. If you can't show a society where homophobia did not exist, then you have no case for it being a societal construct.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I'll tentatively accept that as there's also no evidence for the reverse. Therefore, it is a societal construct and not a natural condition.
    Lack of support that it's not a societal construct is not support that it a societal construct. To argue otherwise is to engage in the argument from ignorance fallacy.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Sure. But not really for what we're talking about. He IS your president.
    Whatever...

    As we established, I am not legally responsible for my government's actions and that goes the same for the President. I am not to be punished if he proposes some anti-gay legislation so this is not a case for me owing you money.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    1 Yes
    2 No I'll agree that it is miniscule but not irrelevant. For example, say you and your friend are at odds. You are going to vote for one guy (in a two person race) and he is going to vote for the other. His vote is going to effectively cancel yours out. Would you say your vote is irrelevant?
    In the context of whether I owe reparations, it's absolutely irrelevant.

    Again, we are talking about whether my legal responsibility is relevant to whether I owe reparations (be essentially fined for my part in injustices against gays). And we've established that my culpability for what my government does is legally irrelevant to whether I am to be punished for it.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    My argument doesn't depend on there being a society that was gay-friendly or not upon it's inception.
    There is if you are going to argue that homophobia is societal construct. If every society that came into existence had homophobia in it, then it looks like it's naturally occuring and not a societal construct.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    My support showed that a homophobic society is not a natural condition.
    You have not supported anything either way.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    This was in response to your assertion that the domination or persecution of minorities* was a natural outcome of societies. *I believe you said something like "differences". I've show this to not be true.
    Well, I don't recall making such an argument nor is there any argument that I am currently forwarding that is based on the premise that homophobia is a natural outcome of societies. So it is not an argument that I am forwarding and if I did forward it in the past, I retract it now.

    And likewise I will consider your argument that homophobia is a societal construct to be retracted until you provide support for it.

  12. #132
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And since my "involvement" in the crime is legally minuscule, I deserve no punishment and therefore should not pay for reparations.
    You'll pay a miniscule amount.

    ---------- Post added at 01:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:05 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    If homophobia is a societal construct, then there needs to be a society that had NO homophobia and the society created it. If you can't show a society where homophobia did not exist, then you have no case for it being a societal construct.
    I've provided examples of societies where there was no homophobia no any evidence it ever existed.

    ---------- Post added at 01:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:07 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    There is if you are going to argue that homophobia is societal construct. If every society that came into existence had homophobia in it, then it looks like it's naturally occuring and not a societal construct.
    They didn't, in fact the reverse is true. As supported.

    ---------- Post added at 01:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:09 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    You have not supported anything either way.
    Sure have.

    ---------- Post added at 01:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:09 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And likewise I will consider your argument that homophobia is a societal construct to be retracted until you provide support for it.
    ugg:

    What is the pre-history of LGBT activism? Most historians agree that there is evidence of homosexual activity and same-sex love, whether such relationships were accepted or persecuted, in every documented culture. We know that homosexuality existed in ancient Israel simply because it is prohibited in the Bible, whereas it flourished between both men and women in Ancient Greece. Substantial evidence also exists for individuals who lived at least part of their lives as a different gender than assigned at birth. From the lyrics of same-sex desire inscribed by Sappho in the seventh century BCE to youths raised as the opposite sex in cultures ranging from Albania to Afghanistan; from the “female husbands” of Kenya to the Native American “Two-Spirit,” alternatives to the Western male-female and heterosexual binaries thrived across millennia and culture. These realities gradually became known to the West via travelers’ diaries, the church records of missionaries, diplomats’ journals, and in reports by medical anthropologists. Such eyewitness accounts in the era before other media were of course riddled with the biases of the (often) Western or white observer, and added to beliefs that homosexual practices were other, foreign, savage, a medical issue, or evidence of a lower racial hierarchy. The peaceful flowering of early trans or bisexual acceptance in different indigenous civilizations met with opposition from European and Christian colonizers.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    You'll pay a miniscule amount.
    Nope. I've established that miniscule moral responsibilty equates NO legal responsibility which means NO punishment and therefore NO payment.

    Just like I wouldn't end up being punished if someone stole my money to buy a gun to commit a crime. One can argue that I had a miniscule moral involvement (like I should have protected my money better) but it's a legally irrelevant issue when it comes to me being punished.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I've provided examples of societies where there was no homophobia no any evidence it ever existed.
    SUPPORT OR RETRACT that there was no homophobia in those societies.

    And lack of evidence that there was is not evidence that there was not. To argue otherwise is to engage in the argument from ignorance fallacy.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    They didn't, in fact the reverse is true. As supported.
    Claims of support is not support. I will address this when I see actual support of it.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Sure have.
    Claims of support is not support. I will address this when I see actual support of it.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    ugg:
    I don't see anything there that says that there was no homophobia in those cultures that were referred to.

    But beyond that, even if you are right, so what?

    Homophobia was NOT invented in the US. It was clearly present in those who started US society so if it is a societal construct, the construction occurred centuries before the US was founded and was brought over with many other white European notions. So how do we get to I owe you money because of that?

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Nope. I've established that miniscule moral responsibilty equates NO legal responsibility which means NO punishment and therefore NO payment.

    Just like I wouldn't end up being punished if someone stole my money to buy a gun to commit a crime. One can argue that I had a miniscule moral involvement (like I should have protected my money better) but it's a legally irrelevant issue when it comes to me being punished.
    You can nu-uh it all you like. If a reparations bill is passed you will pay your share.

    ---------- Post added at 11:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:30 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    SUPPORT OR RETRACT that there was no homophobia in those societies.

    And lack of evidence that there was is not evidence that there was not. To argue otherwise is to engage in the argument from ignorance fallacy.
    Again, it's irrelevant if there was as we're talking about the prevailing social attitude.

    Can Animals Be Homophobic?

    Not as far as we know. Homosexual behavior has been documented in hundreds of animal species, but the same does not hold for gay-bashing.


    ---------- Post added at 11:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:38 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I don't see anything there that says that there was no homophobia in those cultures that were referred to.
    West via travelers’ diaries, the church records of missionaries, diplomats’ journals, and in reports by medical anthropologists.
    All that evidence disagrees with you.

    ---------- Post added at 11:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:41 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Homophobia was NOT invented in the US. It was clearly present in those who started US society so if it is a societal construct, the construction occurred centuries before the US was founded and was brought over with many other white European notions. So how do we get to I owe you money because of that?
    From your own logic chain.
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    You can nu-uh it all you like. If a reparations bill is passed you will pay your share.
    But I've successfully argued that I would not be held legally responsible so no reparations bill will be passed.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Again, it's irrelevant if there was as we're talking about the prevailing social attitude.
    No, we are talking about whether homophobia is natural or not and therefore whether homophobia exists in all societies is what's relevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    All that evidence disagrees with you.
    What evidence? Please present it.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    From your own logic chain.
    Vague non-answer. So I will repeat (and add a mention of my logic chain to it)

    Homophobia was NOT invented in the US. It was clearly present in those who started US society so if it is a societal construct, the construction occurred centuries before the US was founded and was brought over with many other white European notions. So how does the logic chain show that I owe you money because of that?
    Last edited by mican333; August 13th, 2019 at 09:23 PM.

  16. #136
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    Homophobia was NOT invented in the US. It was clearly present in those who started US society so if it is a societal construct, the construction occurred centuries before the US was founded and was brought over with many other white European notions. So how does the logic chain show that I owe you money because of that?
    It was implemented here and it's particular brand was developed here and is different than in say India:

    India is one of the few places in the world where transgenderism has an honored history. In the ancient war epic Mahabharata, Shikhandi, the woman-turned-man, commandeered a legion of transgender people to defeat the unconquerable warrior, Bhishma. Another epic, Ramayana, tells how the the hijras waited for 14 years for Lord Rama to return from exile. In return, he endowed hijras with the powers to both bless and curse, elevating them to demigods.

    It was the 19th-century British colonizers who laid the foundation for the systematic oppression of trans people, criminalizing them and classifying homosexuality as “against the order of nature.”
    Charlemagne didn't think up the Lavender Scare. Therefore the society here did. You are a part of society (from 1) and the rest of the chain follows.

    ---------- Post added at 08:22 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:54 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    What evidence? Please present it.
    Father Antonio Cavazzi’s reaction to the Ganga-Ya-Chibanda, the presiding priest of the Giagues (Imbangala), a group in the Congo region, typifies the European response to African sexual diversity. In his 1687 Istorica de scrizione de’ tre’ regni Congo, Matamba, et Angola. Cavazzi described the Ganga-Ya- Chibanda as “a bare-faced, insolent, obscene, extremely villainous, disreputable scoundrel,” who “committed the foulest crimes” with impunity. The funeral rites held for him were so
    indecent “that the paper dirtied with its description would blush.” According to Cavazzi, the Ganga-Ya-Chibanda routinely cross-dressed and was addressed as
    “grandmother.” The element chibanda in his title is certainly related to other terms used by Bantuspeakers in the region for nonmasculine males who are often shamans and have sex with other men (for example, chibadi, chibado, jimbandaa, hibamba, and quimbanda— see Part III). In Cavazzi’s account, however, the sexuality of the Ganga-Ya-Chibandais ambiguous. Because he freely entered the precincts of secluded women, Cavazzi assumed that he indulged his “brutal passions” with them. But in
    most cases where males in alternative gender roles have been observed associating with women, the situation is the opposite of what Labat assumed: they enjoyed such access precisely because they lacked (or were assumed to lack) heterosexual desire (for example, the Omani khanith, the mashoga of Mombasa, and the Ila mwaami described in this volume).4
    Many more examples at the source.
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Charlemagne didn't think up the Lavender Scare. Therefore the society here did. You are a part of society (from 1) and the rest of the chain follows.
    Why do I owe you money because of the Lavender Scare?



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Many more examples at the source.
    That doesn't show that there was no homophobia within that society. If you can't show me a society where homophobia did not exist upon its origination, you are providing no support that homophobia is not natural.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Why do I owe you money because of the Lavender Scare?
    Same reason you do for the Stonewall persecutions. They are all instances of a projection of the prevailing unjust attitude. Some major, some minor, some able to be adjudicated in the courts, some not.

    ---------- Post added at 11:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:30 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    That doesn't show that there was no homophobia within that society. If you can't show me a society where homophobia did not exist upon its origination, you are providing no support that homophobia is not natural.
    Irrelevant. No matter how you want to take it - a Hobbesian view perhaps - societies have developed (as supported) with a non-homophobic prevailing attitude (the reverse in some, again as supported). Societies moving through whatever motions they need to go through to function do not need to produce a homophobic aspect therefore not a natural condition.

    For example, societies need to provide protection. If no one is guarding the well and someone poisons it, well, then there's no society, right? Everyone is dead (or they don't have a well anymore and have to dig a new one, or move away, whatever).

    What if the weird guy on the edge of the village (the homophobe) say he saw Jerry (the gay) at the well and he was acting "suspicious"? Without more information the town would be reacting out of fear (for its own protection) and may or may sanction Jerry (in whatever degree) they may develop or not develop homphobia. Whether they do is irrelevant (as I began) as it isn't a foregone conclusion.
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    If one takes evolution as the driving force ut seems like thwre would be an inherent natural bias against himosexuality that would naturally show up in any culture that it produces. Not as a logical necissity but at least as a natural trend.
    Further it seems that the natural sexual prejudice of seeking a heterosexual relatuonship for procreation lays a very natural frame work inherent to any such system for at least SOME measure of social bias against homosexuality in general. If only as an ignired minority. Such that social events would naturally be tended to be framed in a heterosexual sense.
    To serve man.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Same reason you do for the Stonewall persecutions. They are all instances of a projection of the prevailing unjust attitude. Some major, some minor, some able to be adjudicated in the courts, some not.
    And that's my fault? So again, why do I owe you money?


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Irrelevant. No matter how you want to take it - a Hobbesian view perhaps - societies have developed (as supported) with a non-homophobic prevailing attitude (the reverse in some, again as supported).
    Irrelevant. You need to show a society that ORIGINATED with no homophobia within it if you are to support that homophobia is not natural.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Societies moving through whatever motions they need to go through to function do not need to produce a homophobic aspect therefore not a natural condition.
    When you support this, I'll address it.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    For example, societies need to provide protection. If no one is guarding the well and someone poisons it, well, then there's no society, right? Everyone is dead (or they don't have a well anymore and have to dig a new one, or move away, whatever).

    What if the weird guy on the edge of the village (the homophobe) say he saw Jerry (the gay) at the well and he was acting "suspicious"? Without more information the town would be reacting out of fear (for its own protection) and may or may sanction Jerry (in whatever degree) they may develop or not develop homphobia. Whether they do is irrelevant (as I began) as it isn't a foregone conclusion.
    But then they aren't persecuting Jerry because he's gay but because there's suspicion that he poisoned the well.

    But the pertinent question is why was the homophobe who accused Jerry Homophobic? If it occurred naturally then his homophobia is natural.

    And while I have no burden to support the opposite conclusion, I can state why I think homophobia is natural. Homophobia is just and offshoot of xenophobia - fear of that which is different and I think xenophobia is very natural, especially amongst primitive people (where all societies start). If someone is different in some way, it's not unnatural to fear them for that difference. And when it comes to sexually different, I could see the fear being even more intense. And in tribal times, xenophobia is a valid survival mechanism because people from other tribes are more unpredictable in their reaction to you than people from your own tribe and therefore more dangerous.

    So I maintain that homophobia is natural and if you are going to support that opposite conclusion you will need to support it with real evidence.

 

 
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